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The Carpenters

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Re: The Carpenters

Post by Curious_Bystander on 30.01.14 13:44

Ahh, ok.  Apologies - I have only been 'on the case', as it were, for about 3 months or so.  Finding information saturation something of an issue!

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Re: The Carpenters

Post by Guest on 30.01.14 13:53

@Curious_Bystander wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:Well, the timings of when Mr Carpenter left the Tapas and carried his child back to his apartment via the rear of 5A (9.15-9.30) would indicate he could be Crecheman, although that begs the question why Tanner failed to recognize him after chatting to him at their table only minutes before. Although, if SY were determined to produce a Tannerman, they could use this statement to back up, the location and timings given by Tanner. And Crecheman was born...

As for the other potential 'wrongdoers' mentioned by Twisted, Mr Carpenter refers to English, Portuguese and 'other' nationalities in his statement....

Ahh, ok.  Apologies - I have only been 'on the case', as it were, for about 3 months or so.  Finding information saturation something of an issue!

No need to apologise, I'm just thinking on my feet - only just re-read the Carpenter statement myself!  smilie 

I'm probably way off the mark, and would love for Clay and Twisted to give their insights if they're able.
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Re: The Carpenters

Post by ultimaThule on 30.01.14 14:47

From Stephen Carpenter's statement:



SC: Yes, because we obviously had our two with us and we were on this side of the table, the single man with three small children was here and I****was playing with them, so we were more or less a group if you would like to call it that, of which they were a part, I think that all the ten members were there and some of us would speak to others here and on the other side of the table.

Is Carpenter referring to the McCanns' group which, as far as we know, comprised 9 members or another group of 10 people?
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Re: The Carpenters

Post by Guest on 30.01.14 17:26

In the collection of translated Policia Judiciaria-files on the McCannFiles website, I can't seem to find the witness statements of these Carpenter people. I can only find them via the McCannPj-files website.
 
Is that correct? If so, does anybody know how come, and, if so, whether one or the other website contains the "real" deal that is translated well enough?
 
In other words: Is this for real, rubbish, or am I looking with my extraordinarily handsome nose?
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Re: The Carpenters

Post by ultimaThule on 31.01.14 2:23

I don't know the answer to your question, Marco, but Stephen Carpenter's statement to UK police as shown in tigger's link is worthy of scrutiny, not least because of the following:

"At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table
, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things, I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals (inaudible), I think it was to check on the children , but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children. We did not talk about the system for checking the children or the fact that they had left them alone in the apartment, it was only later upon hearing the news that I realised that they had left the children alone in the apartment and that they were regularly checking to see if they were all right. Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine we left the Tapas bar to go home, we walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves."

The first sentence of the extract from SC's statement (above) contradicts the accounts given by the Tapas 9 which concur in claiming the group were not all assembled at their table until c9pm, which allegedly was the time MO returned after he'd passed the late arriving Paynes & Webster when going to check on his children.  

After ordering his meal, GM allegedly left the table at c9.05pm to have his 'proud moment', take a leak, suspect another party was secreted somewhere in the apartment and, when making his way back to the Tapas via the rear entrance to 5A, take time out to chat with JW despite knowing his food could be growing cold as he whiled away 5, 10, or more, minutes depending on whose account is believed.     

SC's statement (above) introduces the possibility that KM may have left the Tapas 9's table before the famed 10pm 'discovery' and also suggests that, having been increasingly tardy in attending at the appointed time on previous nights, the group were all assembled by 8.30pm ready to begin their performance meal.

As outlined in my earlier response, SC subsequently states that 
"we were on this side of the table, the single man with three small children was here and I****was playing with them, so we were more or less a group if you would like to call it that, of which they were a part, I think that all the ten members were there and some of us would speak to others here and on the other side of the table"

Perhaps SC can't count, or maybe he didn't notice that the McCann group was unevenly balanced with 5 females to 4 males, but I suspect he would have noticed if one of the Tapas 9 was absent, or he & his wife passed one of them returning to the room, as they left the restaurant c9.15-9.30pm. 
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Re: The Carpenters

Post by tigger on 31.01.14 7:51

SC is word-perfect on his meeting with Murat. Obviously it was important tp have a trusted translator on hand for the McCs.
Apparently the woman who turned up very quickly - Da Silva? - was not what they wanted.
This is retro- fitting again - long after the no comment on whether Gerry knew Murat.

Murat's phone number was on ROB's mobile in the early hours (in the address list). When did that get added?

Why should anyone give a potted CV over the garden fence? 'I speak Portguese' would have been sufficient. but Murat gives him two reasons why he should help. It never happened.

I think the car question took him unawares, as if he'd had no instructions on that subject.

Imo someone had a word with SC to refresh his memory. By the time of the rog. Murat was no longer 'suspected'. By TM.

So in short:
SC backs up TM NOT knowing Murat
He gives too much information on Edmunds - which backs up Edmunds early leaving being 'normal'
His wife's statement is witheld and she heard calls around 9.30
Despite not knowing the group, he knows Gerry's surfing buddies
He places a group of about ten round the table at 8.30 - surely the Tapas Nine was seared in everyone's memory by then?
Genuine slip?
He probably had no instructions either to deny or confirm a car
He confirms ( unlike the waiters) that Gerry and Kate left to check - mentions no others
He leaves just before 9.30

MI5 don't by any chance have a squad of hypnotists?  winkwink 

Does he mention JW with child in buggy to use the loo sometime around 8.45?



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Re: The Carpenters

Post by Guest on 01.02.14 2:30

Thank you, ultimaThule for your informative response, I'm going to read the statement over. Had read it a while ago half and half, only the episode about Robert Murat struck me then as just weird. I doubted the authenticity, because of that weirdness and it was not on mccannfiles. The things you highlight, I hadn't even noticed.
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Re: The Carpenters

Post by tigger on 01.02.14 11:30

This snippet belongs here: ( I think as in the first post here the initials are reversed, DCF must be asking the questions I should think) so why leave on the 4th?

Mr P Edmonds in room DP03, arrived with his 3 sons on a LGW flight on the 28th, the same day as everyone else. On the arrivals list he was booked in for 7 nights, due to leave on the 5th. But according to a fellow holidaymaker Stephen Carpenter, who was in the tapas restaurant with him the night Madeleine was reported missing, he was flying his children back to their Mother in Switzerland the following morning after staying only 6 nights.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_339.jpg

From Stephen Carpenter’s statement:
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

DCF: We arrived at about seven because we had the children with us and I saw a man sitting at the table next to us with three children.

SC: Yes

DCF: He was going to take a plane the next day to Switzerland, given that the children’s mother lived there, I had never seen him before that night, but he ended up joining us for a coffee, he was a MW tourist.

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Re: The Carpenters

Post by j.rob on 14.11.14 17:32

I wonder if Carpenter was asked if he knew the Irwins in his original statement? Its interesting that the Carpenters and Edmunds were at the Tapas with their kids, didn't the Tapas 9 ever feel a little bit guilty that they never took theirs even once to the Tapas Bar and had them all shipped off to bed by 7.30pm every single night?

--------

I think it was important for the whole group that there was confusion around what all their children looked like, including Madeleine. If the McCanns and the Tapas had been seen around more with their children, people would have more easily been able to put names to faces. To work out which children belonged to which particular parent. The children including Madeleine would also have bonded more as a group. So the 'disappearance' of Madeleine would have been more noticeable and more traumatic. 

I think it is extremely significant that the McCanns chose to have breakfast and lunch at their apartment. It kept their children hidden away from other holiday-makers.

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Re: The Carpenters

Post by Tony Bennett on 14.11.14 17:59

@j.rob wrote:I think it is extremely significant that the McCanns chose to have breakfast and lunch at their apartment. It kept their children hidden away from other holiday-makers.
One researcher made the interesting observation some time ago that it appears the McCanns were leaving the flat separately and by different doors after Sunday.

It was speculated that they were never seen together with the twins after that; one was with the twins, the other somewhere else.

If they were seen together with the twins, so the theory went, someone might have asked: "Where's Madeleine?"

I was never able to check out this claim

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Re: The Carpenters

Post by j.rob on 14.11.14 19:53

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@j.rob wrote:I think it is extremely significant that the McCanns chose to have breakfast and lunch at their apartment. It kept their children hidden away from other holiday-makers.
One researcher made the interesting observation some time ago that it appears the McCanns were leaving the flat separately and by different doors after Sunday.

It was speculated that they were never seen together with the twins after that; one was with the twins, the other somewhere else.

If they were seen together with the twins, so the theory went, someone might have asked: "Where's Madeleine?"

I was never able to check out this claim

Interesting. And not at all surprising, imo, if this were found to be the case. I think it was very important for the 'waters to be muddied' that week. If this were true it does rather suggest that something 'had happened' on Saturday/Sunday whether intentional or not. Or maybe there was always a plan to have Madeleine hidden away that week, for whatever reason.

Assuming she was even there, of course! But I do trust the sniffer dogs findings.

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