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Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 9:08

@monkey mind wrote:Yes, this is the very point that I have been alluding to. 5A could well have been set up for the Paynes and if they swapped, this is highly significant is it not?

Perhaps the calling of staff to 5a to fix the blind and work the washing machine, was to place the McCann's in that apartment.

Stella: “So yes, G5A could have been for the Payne's who 'did not request an extra bed' and that G5H, which 'did have an extra bed', was supposed to be for the McCann's.”

This is why I was asking if there was a sofa bed in 5A as a sofa bed represents the extra bed requested. If 5A does not have one, then that room was set up for the Paynes. Now you say above that 5H DID have an extra bed. Do we know that for sure, for if we do then we can conclude that 5H was set up for the McCanns as they were the one’s requesting the extra bed.....

Dianne Webster's testimony is a strange one. Why did she even need to mention that she was sleeping on a sofa bed? Why did the PJ ask her where she was sleeping?, or was that Leicestershire Police? Could it be because they were afraid someone might ask why they paid for an extra bed, if no one was going to use it? Was the not being able to sleep in the same room as her grand-daughter, only to reinforce the need for an extra bed? It's no wonder many people tried to shoot down my claim that the McCann's requested an extra bed, when I first spotted this on MCF. From observations made using the photograph of the rear of block 5, as you move up through the floors, the number of apartments decrease per floor, which must mean they also have more square feet. This might suggest that anyone needing extra room for an extra bed, would be located upstairs, rather than on the ground floor. Personally, I don't think the sofa in G5A was a sofa bed. The question has been raised before about properties already containing sofa beds just in case they are requested, but I cannot see this somehow. Would that not encourage people to smuggle in extra unpaid guests?
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 9:11

@sharonl wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember something about another McCann relative, an uncle, having gone along on that holiday but he made a hasty retreat back to the UK on the morning of May 4th. If this is correct, where was he supposed to sleep?

I have never heard of this before, I must admit. I've not come across anything to suggest this is even possible. The number of people in the McCann booking on the OC daily sheets is 5, so if he was there, he was not staying with them.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.12.11 9:28

Stella wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember something about another McCann relative, an uncle, having gone along on that holiday but he made a hasty retreat back to the UK on the morning of May 4th. If this is correct, where was he supposed to sleep?

I have never heard of this before, I must admit. I've not come across anything to suggest this is even possible. The number of people in the McCann booking on the OC daily sheets is 5, so if he was there, he was not staying with them.
Unless of course, he was smuggled in and slept on the sofa bed Wink

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 9:41

@rainbow-fairy wrote:
Stella wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember something about another McCann relative, an uncle, having gone along on that holiday but he made a hasty retreat back to the UK on the morning of May 4th. If this is correct, where was he supposed to sleep?

I have never heard of this before, I must admit. I've not come across anything to suggest this is even possible. The number of people in the McCann booking on the OC daily sheets is 5, so if he was there, he was not staying with them.
Unless of course, he was smuggled in and slept on the sofa bed Wink

Arh!! that's not possible, the Payne's had a sofa bed, not the McCann's.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.12.11 10:37

Stella wrote:
@rainbow-fairy wrote:
Stella wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember something about another McCann relative, an uncle, having gone along on that holiday but he made a hasty retreat back to the UK on the morning of May 4th. If this is correct, where was he supposed to sleep?

I have never heard of this before, I must admit. I've not come across anything to suggest this is even possible. The number of people in the McCann booking on the OC daily sheets is 5, so if he was there, he was not staying with them.
Unless of course, he was smuggled in and slept on the sofa bed Wink

Arh!! that's not possible, the Payne's had a sofa bed, not the McCann's.
Arh, but did they do a cheeky little swap (room, wife, child - delete as applicable Wink)

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by rainbow-fairy on 28.12.11 10:58

Stella, on a more serious note, do we think the swap happened?
I ask because I think its very important - obviously if they did swap for whatever reason (view, layout, stairs?) it's irrelevant BUT the fact it was kept hidden, to me, is very suspicious and potentially really significant.
Having read this thread, and re-read some rogatories (never seen so many err's in my life Wink). Having read and had a sleepless night thinking of it, it seems logical that
G5H was set up for, and possibly used by (for how long?) the McCanns AND
G5A set up and used by the Paynes (again, for how long?)

Would this explain anomalies, including;
1)Apparent lack of MBM dna in G5A
2)'Cuddle cat on high shelf' - from the photo's we can see there was no shelf in G5A bedroom - but was there in G5H?

And So many more anomalies besides!

We would then need to try and ascertain, when would the swap have happened? Pre or post mortem?
I really think this could be a vital piece of the puzzle BUT I've not had much sleep going over and over it. Please pick apart as needed Wink

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by monkey mind on 28.12.11 12:00

Rainbow-fairy, you are right it is very significant. There are always certain things in any investigation which are more significant than others, events which turn out to be foundation stones holding up a prosecution wall. This imho would be one of those and I guess that is why I’ve been reluctant to leave this for the last 3 or 4 days. As to whether a swap happened, 3 questions...

1. Does that extra bed booking request relate to the McCanns?

2. Was there an extra bed in 5H?

3.Was there an extra bed in 5A?

Answers:
1. Logic would dictate that this booking does relate to the McCanns. Furthermore, why would the Paynes request an extra bed at all at further cost? With four beds in the apartment and two cots they already had one spare and no need for a fifth. If questioned about this they may claim that grandma Webster had to sleep in the lounge on an uncomfortable bed to avoid disturbing the child L who had a cot, two beds and a room to herself. I would counter that it didn’t bother mum and dad Payne disturbing the child S who was apparently in their room when they got back at night. One could also ask why the McCanns needed an extra bed when money was tight? The answer to this is simple. Fiona Payne states the Paynes were the only ones to book a 2 bedroom apt which means the McCanns initially booked a one bedroom and would have needed a spare bed along with the two cots they ordered to put up the 3 children. Sometime later, on arrival or earlier this was upgraded to a two bedroom apt.

2. We know there was an extra bed in 5H.

3. There is no evidence of an extra bed in 5A at this stage. It may be possible to confirm this for sure by one of the investigating/forensic officers who entered and examined that room.

Conclusion:
If the answer to question 3 turns out to be ‘no’, then it is not a matter of IF a swap happened, it certainly MUST have happened. As to when, I would guess almost immediately. They may try and explain a move with some banal excuse as view or difficult to get a double stroller up stairs but I would dismiss this as nonsense just as the PJ have dismissed the abduction as nonsense due to the complete lack of evidence and a seeming litany of lies. So the abduction must have been staged. I would argue that the swap took place because it made a far more plausible setting for an abduction than 5H, after all who is going to ignore all the unattended children in the ground floor apartments and climb to the first floor to steal a child. Criminals don’t like to make things difficult for themselves and the PJ would seriously have questioned this. It is exactly the same reason why the children HAD to be left alone every night. Both lend credibility to the picture being painted, and equally, both display forethought of planning. Big coffin nails.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by monkey mind on 28.12.11 12:04

It also trashes any question of an accident.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 12:24



I have a funny feeling that all of them on arrival were destined to stay on the ground floor of block 5. The Paynes were the only ones to book a 2 bed and were due for G5A. All the others a 1 bed, G5B was a 1 bed. G5C was empty. G5D is listed as a T1, which means it must have been a 1 bed, but Tanner talks of having a room with 2 bedrooms. This is the next red flag alerting us to room swapping. The PJ knew all about this. This is why they were all asked to describe their rooms, right down to the finer details of turning right or left as they leave rooms and where that led them. The PJ must have suspected this and used the Rogatory Interviews to gather as much proof as they could.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 12:30

@rainbow-fairy wrote:Stella, on a more serious note, do we think the swap happened?

Either a swap, or a complete re-allocation of apartments on arrival. There are far too many discrepencies to think otherwise at the moment.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by PeterMac on 28.12.11 12:35

Monkey Mind -
Conclusion:
If the answer to question 3 turns out to be ‘no’, then it is not a matter of IF a swap happened, it certainly MUST have happened. As to when, I would guess almost immediately. They may try and explain a move with some banal excuse as view or difficult to get a double stroller up stairs but I would dismiss this as nonsense
Particularly since they said they did not have a stroller / buggy at that stage, hence the need to go to the Tapas, rather than the Millennium

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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 12:52

I think the 'tall pushy man' who arranged the tapas bookings, is the likeliest candidate to have also arranged the apartment upgrades for everyone on arrival. I think he had plans for this group long before they stepped foot in Portugal, unbeknown to most of the group. Changing so many rooms on arrival, means someone had thought about this beforehand, which suggests planning.

I think there is a slim possibility that this 'tall pushy man' could also be involved in what really happened to Madeleine and he knew about the previous break in at G5A and it's obvious concerns.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 13:39

@monkey mind wrote:1. Does that extra bed booking request relate to the McCanns?

Without any shadow of a doubt, yes.

Count the 'room booked' lines down the page, which also contain the 'room extras'. There are 3 on the first page and only one on the last page. This means the last one relates to the last family on that list, which is McCann. The last entry is the one that lists the 'room extra' as quite clearly an extra bed.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 13:44



The last 'Room Booked:' relates to the last family. Each family has it's own entry, the Payne's one is at the bottom of the previous page.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 13:47


As you can see, this page has 3 lots of 'Room Booked:' for just two families.
The last one relates to the Payne Booking on the next page and everyone missed it.
I have sent this to SY as one page to make the whole booking stand out as clear as day.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 13:54

@monkey mind wrote: The answer to this is simple. Fiona Payne states the Paynes were the only ones to book a 2 bedroom apt which means the McCanns initially booked a one bedroom and would have needed a spare bed along with the two cots they ordered to put up the 3 children. Sometime later, on arrival or earlier this was upgraded to a two bedroom apt.
But someone forgot to remove the 'extra bed' request from their booking. sarcastic It's a junior mistake. rotfl
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by monkey mind on 28.12.11 14:05

This has probably already been discussed at length but tbh, on the face of it I’m not too sure how to interpret this tall pushy man, or how one can with the information at hand, read him as a ‘stranger’ or unknown. In the first place the statement of Luisa Coutinho isn’t particularly good, needs clarification.

Firstly, how do we know this was Madeleine? Did he tell her that? If not how does she know, by her own admission the reception had very little to do with MW guests. So is she recognising this girl as being one regularly in company with G and K or just a child in amongst many in a large group of adults and children?

Or is she just assuming it was Madeleine because the child with the man was about the right age and looks similar to the child in the posters distributed from 4/5/07 onwards? None of this is clear.

What time did he make the booking on the Sunday? May not have appeared significant then, does now.

How do we know this mysterious tall man was not O’Brien or Oldfield? Could it not have been O’Brien with his 3 year old? Didn’t Tanner say she booked the table at the Tapas, maybe they went together and she got chatting or whatever and O’Brien went ahead and made the booking with his own daughter.

Unless there is some pertinent information elsewhere, I can’t see how we can deduce that this was indeed Maddie, or that it wasn’t one of the four known males in that party (other than G or DP). Without clarification it would seem the natural candidate for this person is O’Brien and his 3 yr old.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by monkey mind on 28.12.11 14:09

Stella wrote:
@monkey mind wrote:1. Does that extra bed booking request relate to the McCanns?

Without any shadow of a doubt, yes.

Count the 'room booked' lines down the page, which also contain the 'room extras'. There are 3 on the first page and only one on the last page. This means the last one relates to the last family on that list, which is McCann. The last entry is the one that lists the 'room extra' as quite clearly an extra bed.

Stella, I agree, I'm right with you on this one, it has to refer to the McCanns. I simply posed the question for others to consider as one of the 3 elements fundamental to a swap.
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by monkey mind on 28.12.11 14:19

Stella wrote:
@monkey mind wrote: The answer to this is simple. Fiona Payne states the Paynes were the only ones to book a 2 bedroom apt which means the McCanns initially booked a one bedroom and would have needed a spare bed along with the two cots they ordered to put up the 3 children. Sometime later, on arrival or earlier this was upgraded to a two bedroom apt.
But someone forgot to remove the 'extra bed' request from their booking. sarcastic It's a junior mistake. rotfl

Yup. Exactly that. Then all fits together perfectly.

Except the Paynes and McCanns are now in opposite rooms to those allocated.

And even that fits perfectly.....
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 14:28

@monkey mind wrote:This has probably already been discussed at length but tbh, on the face of it I’m not too sure how to interpret this tall pushy man, or how one can with the information at hand, read him as a ‘stranger’ or unknown. In the first place the statement of Luisa Coutinho isn’t particularly good, needs clarification.
That could be down to the translation available.

Firstly, how do we know this was Madeleine? Did he tell her that? If not how does she know, by her own admission the reception had very little to do with MW guests. So is she recognising this girl as being one regularly in company with G and K or just a child in amongst many in a large group of adults and children?
She specifically mentions that Madeleine, or the child she recognises as Madeleine, was not with her Father. I'm thinking this man had the substitue with him. Maybe on leaving he said something like, come on Madeleine, lets go get an ice cream.

Or is she just assuming it was Madeleine because the child with the man was about the right age and looks similar to the child in the posters distributed from 4/5/07 onwards? None of this is clear.
Maybe she identified this man using photos and the PJ did not feel the need to press her further.

What time did he make the booking on the Sunday? May not have appeared significant then, does now.
All we know is that it was in the morning.

How do we know this mysterious tall man was not O’Brien or Oldfield? Could it not have been O’Brien with his 3 year old?
Because both of them stated Rachel made the booking. If it was either, one of them, surely they would have mentioned it.

Didn’t Tanner say she booked the table at the Tapas,
No.

maybe they went together and she got chatting or whatever and O’Brien went ahead and made the booking with his own daughter.
He never talks of doing it and why would he have the influence to make MW change their standard rules, having never been there before? Why would he be out with Madeleine? No, it wasn't him.

Unless there is some pertinent information elsewhere, I can’t see how we can deduce that this was indeed Maddie, or that it wasn’t one of the four known males in that party (other than G or DP). Without clarification it would seem the natural candidate for this person is O’Brien and his 3 yr old.
Except for Tanner said her daughter could not walk properly due to surgery on her heel, the week before and as such, she missed creche that first morning. So it cannot be her.
If someone innocently made that booking, why has 'he' never mentioned it? Could it be because it was not someone who was interviewed by the PJ or Rogatory Interviews and this persons identity is being protected?
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 14:40

I've just had a thought. Could this be why Madeleine was not signed in until 9.45 that morning. The last child to arrive in fact. Because she was needed to put in an appearance at the tapas booking office, accompanied by a man who did not have children, but needed a prop to justify leaving all the children alone every night? winkwink
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 14:44

@monkey mind wrote:
Stella wrote:
@monkey mind wrote:1. Does that extra bed booking request relate to the McCanns?

Without any shadow of a doubt, yes.

Count the 'room booked' lines down the page, which also contain the 'room extras'. There are 3 on the first page and only one on the last page. This means the last one relates to the last family on that list, which is McCann. The last entry is the one that lists the 'room extra' as quite clearly an extra bed.

Stella, I agree, I'm right with you on this one, it has to refer to the McCanns. I simply posed the question for others to consider as one of the 3 elements fundamental to a swap.
I know you do monkey mind, it was not for your benefit. roses
There are still people reading this who cannot see it yet and was trying to educate the masses. big grin
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by kikoraton on 28.12.11 14:44

I think the Tapas Chums were billeted exactly where they wanted to be - perched on the end of a residential area, with plenty of open space in the form of roads and gardens around them. A nucleus of co-travellers which would attract police questioning like moths to a light-bulb, whilst allowing the important participants to live elsewhere on site, and slip under the radar. I mean, of course, Robert Naylor and the substitute Madalene's father. (I don't want to get into where the latter might have been accommodated, just yet).
Nice and handy for persons slipping quietly between 5A and Murat's residence, too!
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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by sharonl on 28.12.11 14:53

Stella wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember something about another McCann relative, an uncle, having gone along on that holiday but he made a hasty retreat back to the UK on the morning of May 4th. If this is correct, where was he supposed to sleep?

I have never heard of this before, I must admit. I've not come across anything to suggest this is even possible. The number of people in the McCann booking on the OC daily sheets is 5, so if he was there, he was not staying with them.

It may have been just speculation in a post that I had read, but i definately read something along those lines, there was also a reference to aTapas 10.

Why would the OC agree to an extra bed if there was already more than enough? Was there a late addition to the booking? Perhaps someone was already in PDL. Was the ommission of a name a clerical error?


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Re: Why did the McCann's request an extra bed?

Post by Guest on 28.12.11 15:01

@sharonl wrote:
Stella wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Please correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember something about another McCann relative, an uncle, having gone along on that holiday but he made a hasty retreat back to the UK on the morning of May 4th. If this is correct, where was he supposed to sleep?

I have never heard of this before, I must admit. I've not come across anything to suggest this is even possible. The number of people in the McCann booking on the OC daily sheets is 5, so if he was there, he was not staying with them.

It may have been just speculation in a post that I had read, but i definately read something along those lines, there was also a reference to aTapas 10.
Actually, thinking about it. There was a spare bed in the children's bedroom already. They didn't need a sofa bed.
I think that report it is a red herring to be honest.


Why would the OC agree to an extra bed if there was already more than enough?
Which also suggests the bookings were swapped.
Was there a late addition to the booking?
If there was, it should have been recorded on the booking form.
Perhaps someone was already in PDL. Was the ommission of a name a clerical error?
I doubt it very much.
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