MADELEINE BY KATE MCCANN — II (The David Payne visit)

I'm pretty sure that the Payne statement only surfaced after Amaral had established that no independent witness had seen her after 4.30 that day.

The usual mix up occurred, Gerry, Payne and Kate all have different times and stories including the reason why Gerry asked Payne to look in.
I've been trying to find it myself - I'll have another go.

The Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until September, I believe the date of the covering letter is after the mcCanns left Portugal.
That's easily found in the McCannfiles. 24th October 2007 is the date of the covering letter from LP.

Do you mean Payne in your last paragraph?

(Quote) it was not mentioned by David Payne, Gerry or Kate McCann in their initial police statements, despite Kate McCann’s repeated assertions in the book that she had told the police “everything”. The first reference to it comes, oddly, not from either of the individuals involved but from Gerry McCann, in his May 10 statement:

“David went to visit Kate and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused.”

tigger wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Payne statement only surfaced after Amaral had established that no independent witness had seen her after 4.30 that day.

The usual mix up occurred, Gerry, Payne and Kate all have different times and stories including the reason why Gerry asked Payne to look in.
I've been trying to find it myself - I'll have another go.

The Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until September, I believe the date of the covering letter is after the mcCanns left Portugal.
That's easily found in the McCannfiles. 24th October 2007 is the date of the covering letter from LP.

Do you mean Payne in your last paragraph?

Yes sorry I didn't make myself clear I did mean Payne.

What I don't understand is why anyone would say they had seen Madeleine alive and well and especially while KM was supposedly wrapped in a towel after the question was asked about who saw her last if they were -

involved! Surely they would shut up and say nothing!

So I was/am trying to establish the time lines between these things being said and not having much luck finding the time it was first said that DP had visited KM at GMs request!

jd wrote:(Quote) it was not mentioned by David Payne, Gerry or Kate McCann in their initial police statements, despite Kate McCann’s repeated assertions in the book that she had told the police “everything”. The first reference to it comes, oddly, not from either of the individuals involved but from Gerry McCann, in his May 10 statement:

“David went to visit Kate and the children and returned close to 19H00, trying to convince the deponent to continue to play tennis, which he refused.”

Sorry jd you have just posted this while I was writing the other one!!

So the first time it was mentioned was before the question over the last possible sighting.

1. is GM making this up because he realises at this point, 7 days in, that perhaps that question could come up!?

2. or, did the visit really happen? In which case in light of the Gasper statement (that he knew nothing of at this time) it is a rather stupid thing to say IF the Gasper statement is true!

3. He says in his very first comment about this, David went to visit Kate and the children and returned close to 19.00 he doesn't say he went to help Kate take the children to the play area. He was gone for almost an hour then if you take the time he arrived back from the Beach Bar (without his own wife & kids) and supposedly with Kate & the children for all that time. Differing statements occur after this BUT this is the first time mention of it has been made so we must assume it is the nearest to the truth. (if of course we are not going on the theory that GM made this up to cover up knowing someone would question the last time Madeleine was seen alive)

4. and biggest question of all is WHY did he try to convince GM to stay and play more tennis?!!

This bumbling mans statement (a 46 year old Doctor) is incredible, there are no words to describe it. He cannot say a simple thing like he visited kate mccann before or after going to his apartment to get changed. Its only 'makes sense' that it was on the way up! What is this man on!!!!!

And did he get changed? he later says he went to pick up kit, not get changed. Surely you would know if you got changed or picked up kit either before or after making the long trip round to apartment 5A to see kate mccann, not 'its the likelihood that its on the way'....Why aren't SY & Redwood picking up on these things!

And the answer to a very very simplistic question 'How long did you spend in your apartment" is just mind blowing!
-----
1485 "Okay, and it was at what point that Gerry said to you go and, would you mind checking at Kate''
Reply "Well I mean coming back from the beach I'd got no equipment to play tennis you know, etcetera, so I had to go back to my room to you know change into stuff appropriate for playing tennis in, and err so he knew that I'd walk up that by and past so he said oh why don't you err, you know can you just pop in on the way, the way up, so it was on the way back from me picking the stuff up.'

1485 "Right, so you've walked past, you've walked past Gerry's apartment to get to yours.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Got changed''
Reply "No, you know it was, again whether it was, in my mind it was on the way up that I'd popped in to Kate but it could have been on the way back, again, I'm sorry.'

1485 "No, it's okay.'
Reply "For my vagueness.'
00:35:21 1485 "But either way you'd have had to walk past because you go the roadside don't you''
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "So you'd have had to walk past Gerry's''
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Front door twice wouldn't you''
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Is that right''
Reply "So, the reason why I think it was more likely that I did it on the way there was because I've called in through the err patio, it kind of made more sense that I'd have walked in through the gate and then up through the you know where the sliding doors are to say I'm here, rather than going up to my apartment, coming back down, coming past the apartment and then coming in the sliding doors.'

1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "Because what I would have done is I'd have got changed and gone downstairs and then knocked on the front door because that, you know that would have made more sense rather than going all the way round and''
1485 "Yeah, course.'
Reply "So that's in my mind why it makes more sense that it was, that that was on the way up.'

1485 "Right, so how long did you spend in your apartment before, I know you, I appreciate that you can't recall whether it's going or coming.'
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "The likelihood is that it's on the way.'
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "How long did you spend in your apartment''
00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'

1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "You know just to pick the kit up and, and then go back down really.'

1485 "Did you have your own racquet''
Reply "I didn't, no, I was using the, err Mark Warner's racquets.'

1485 "Mark Warner's, okay. I just want to revisit the going and seeing Kate before we move on.'
Reply "Mm.'

On playing tennis for an hour..between 7pm and 8pm and fiona's run. david payne is bubbling his way to say it was around 8pm, fiona payne is saying it was around 7.15pm. david payne was playing tennis during this time. david payne says:

"1485 "Okay. So then you went back and then you played, you played a game for about an hour''
Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "You think from seven, from about seven till about eight''
Reply "Yeah, I mean it must, I mean it was before, I mean we got back before eight o' clock err you know so perhaps just before seven, err sorry, err yeah just before seven so it was just before eight o' clock. As I say when I got back I think I was cutting it fine and Fiona was still keen to go for a run and we started to get everyone ready for bed.'

1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "And err so it was, as I say, about an hour but certainly we'd finished before eight o' clock.'"
------
However, Fiona payne says about her run"
--------
1485
'Right. So what time did he come back then from his tennis''

Reply
'I'd say, if we came back about seven, he was about ten minutes after that, so about ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that'.

1485
'And then you went for your run. So he told you that before you went for your run''

Reply
'Yeah, yeah'.

00.28.29
1485
'Is that right''

Reply
'Yeah'.

1485
'And so we move on then to your run, it just takes you twenty minutes''

Reply
'Yeah'.

1485
'You came back just before eight''

Reply
'Yeah'.

The kids were 'generally' standing up? he was only there for a few mins so they were either sitting or standing not 'generally', there wasn't enough time for 'generally'! How can you ask 2 year old kids to confirm that 'ah yeah, I popped in'!
-----
1485 "And did you actually set eyes on each individual child''
Reply "All three children I saw, yeah.'

1485 "And were they standing up' Sitting down''
Reply "Err they were generally standing up, yeah.'

1485 "Did they actually acknowledge you''
Reply "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.'

1485 "Yeah. Was that the last time you saw Madeleine''
00:42:39 Reply "It was.'

1485 "How many minutes, you said as a matter of minutes and then you went back and then you played tennis.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "I'm gonna pin you down and ask you how long you think you were in there for. I know you say minutes.'
Reply "In their apartment, it, it, I'd say three minutes, five maximum.'

1485 "Three to five''
Reply "Yeah.'

And just to completely confuse everything. david payne originally sent a written document/questionnaire to LPP on 24th October 2007 saying (in his own handwriting) that he "he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. "

The document written by Dr Payne is not in the DVD.

The total contradictions and lies are mind boggling. Clearly this 'visit' never happened and was made up. Again why aren't SY picking up on this

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

Did david payne and gerry mccann go to beach together at 4am? where gerry mccann broke down?

-----
david payne.... "Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach and in between all this you know Kate and Gerry were just breaking down you know just their behaviour was, you know was never questioned or did I ever think there was anything strange about you know their behaviour and how they would, they would act, you know in such a set of circumstances and you know Gerry's a very stoical person and you know, I think you know its the way that he's conducted himself over the past few months you know, and he broke down with me on the front, you know. You know just very obviously a broken man, and you know we spent some time you know, not long, I was trying my best to console him, we went back then to the err the apartment, you know it's, by around about four, four thirty in the morning you know there was nothing else that you know that we could do"
-----
fiona payne...." I can't remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm, and they didn't wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren't their parents, they didn't, they didn't wake up. Erm, and we settled them down and made a bed up for Kate and Gerry and I think it was around sort of half four'ish we decided we should all try and just get, get a rest, because everyone else had gone, you know, it was just, again, it was that feeling of helplessness really, everyone had gone, erm, you know, what are we supposed to do'.
----
dianne webster......."Reply “And err eventually when err Dave and Fiona came back and I can’t remember if they came back carrying the twins or whether they came back first and said the twins are coming up here I can’t remember, err but the twins appeared err in our apartment, they were put down to sleep. That was when the Police had cordoned off the apartment and err Kate and Gerry came up.”

4078 “Yeah.”
Reply “And then a lot of the time was spent with them, frantic really, on the phone to, to family you know absolutely distraught.”
------

Talking of gerry mccann a broken man, we can see how broken he was just 3 days later on his balcony

Ribisl wrote:According to the official version GM had asked DP to give Kate a hand to take the chidren down to the play area. But Kate said no because the children were tired and ready for bed.

JD - if we combine this with the times given by the Paraiso bar CCTV from around 16.00 and list the separate timings of DP, FP, GM and KM, it's going to look very interesting.

The 'reason' for looking in on 5a also differs;
Gerry says it was to see if the children wanted to go to the playground. I can discount that completely. It's a typical Gerry 'what a wonderful dad I am' statement. On a par with reading the children bedtime stories. It's not in character.
But that time is given as 5.00 pm by DP. Probably the same as given by Gerry initially.
At some point during the interviews it must have occurred to GM that it would be better to have the visit later.
DP obliged in his usual way - pity he'd already been very precise on the 5.00 pm. one but what the hell. DP says it's to tell Kate G is going to be late, G asks if K needs help with the children. This makes more sense for the later version of 6.30 pm. It would have been too late to go to the playground by then.

DP and GM going down to the beach and GM being a broken man can't have happened imo.
GM being ' broken' may be partly true that night because so many things went wrong and were 'out of his control'. Gerry likes to have total control I think.

Fiona's run can (5.00 pm visit being out - do no tennis finishing before seven) barely be fitted in as she needed to shower and change as well if the tennis finished at nearly 8.00 pm.

They really are a monumentally boring lot this group. Endless mention of their jogging - being 'into' each other - it's all very nineties, when they were students and that's what they did then. Seems they're suffering from arrested development, especially the Ms with their adolescent wish for celebrity and applause. One is supposed to grow out of that sort of thing.

PeterMac wrote:

jd wrote:snip
The total contradictions and lies are mind boggling. Clearly this 'visit' never happened and was made up. Again why aren't SY picking up on this

How do you know they aren't ?
They are using Holmes 2 and probably Anacapa, and discrepancies like this would pop up immediately.

PeterMac, I would be very interested in how the above work. I have heard of Holmes but never anacapa, and I don't know how either work. You feed stuff in and it shows up discrepencies?

tigger wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Payne statement only surfaced after Amaral had established that no independent witness had seen her after 4.30 that day.

The usual mix up occurred, Gerry, Payne and Kate all have different times and stories including the reason why Gerry asked Payne to look in.
I've been trying to find it myself - I'll have another go.

The Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until September, I believe the date of the covering letter is after the mcCanns left Portugal.
That's easily found in the McCannfiles. 24th October 2007 is the date of the covering letter from LP.

Do you mean Payne in your last paragraph?

4th May DP interview - mentions NOTHING about time beore 20:55 and arrival at restaurant

4th May FP Interview - They (meaning DP & herself) went to the beach with the children and her mother arriving about 15.45 left at 18.15 went to tennis courts until approx 19:00. Immediately after the witness headed to the apartment with her children and her mother. 10 mins later her husband (19:10) appeared in the apartment her mother helped by DP bathed the children whle FP went for a jog on beach till 20h.

(later in her RI she states that DP was already at beach and she went with just the girls)

4th May DW Interview - She went to the beach with the children her son in law and daughter. They arrived around 15.45 and left around 18.15 to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 19.00. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and 10 mins later her son in law David joined them and with her son in laws help they bathed the children (in her RI she says she thinks she may have gone back to apartment and does not mention D helping bathe the kids)

(she also states they all went to beach together)

10 & 11 May DP & FP NOT interviewed

DW Interview - at 19.00 she had gone together with the Payne couple and their children to the apartment in order to prepare them for bed. Then as usual the adults prepared themselves for dinner.


RI D PAYNE - (summarised for speed) Me and F had gone to beach we had the kids we had lunch in the apartment. (I think he means we got the kids and had lunch as the kids were signed into the clubs) That afternoon I wanted to go to the Ocean err to the beach and windsurf M & R had gone down. So I went down while F & DW were looking after the girls in apt. After we finished we met on beach and played with girls, then went to restaurant. Decided to play tennis so I left with Russell. I don't know how it happened but I went over to see G at the tennis courts just to see what was happening and decided that we'd I'd come back to play tennis and G had asked me to pop in and check everything was alright with KAte you know I can't remember the exact reason whether he was making sure he could have more time but no he asked me to pop in. I went to Kates at 6.30 and went in through patio doors it was after 7.30 that we left the courts.

(I decided to play tennis - according to FP in her RI it was booked and they had rearranged the time)

RI - F PAYNE - We had been sailing (am) and D & I took out a boat together we were drenched and cold so came back to apartment for more clothes about 11.30, sat by pool for a bit with DP saw K & G sat and had a chat. K & I walked to pick up kids only day we did that she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlett (no mention of twins or her other daughter Lily!!)

Mum & I Dave I can't remember went to beach at 3.30. So in that group who walked to beach yeah, me mum I think as I say I can't for Dave. I think he was already had gone by then. Jane with erm Ella and Evie well it would have just it was just Evie because Ella was would have been in the kids club and erm yeah R was with Grace.

(Why was Ella at the kids club it is said that ALL the group were at the beach that afternoon and the kids ate at the beach - CAT NANNY Signs Ella out at 4.30 - WHO collected her then and took her to beach to join the others as this group did not get back till between 6 and 6.30pm?)

RI Continued No Kate didn't come they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon for the twins as well as M and they were the only ones doing that as I say sometimes Ella went in the afternoon but the younger ones non of us put them in the afternoons.
It was the mens tennis that night it was getting towards 6pm and I said you'd better go, you've moved the time, it's not fair if your late, so they left about 6pm then we walked back up to watch them play. By 7pm me and my Mum headed back to start bath time. Dave we left him playing we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back probably 10 mins later

RI D Webster- The men went back before us for tennis, think we went back to the play area or maybe I went back to the apartment.

Fiona went for a run I know that

(that was all she could remember no mention of bathing kids or bein helped by DP this time just FPs run she can remember)

PeterMac wrote:

candyfloss wrote:
PeterMac, I would be very interested in how the above work. I have heard of Holmes but never anacapa, and I don't know how either work. You feed stuff in and it shows up discrepencies?

For Anacapa have a look at
http://www.dcs.bbk.ac.uk/~dsmit01/THESIS/Chapter1.pdf
and then just change the chapter number for the others.
Some of it a bit dense, with the algorithms explained, but the basic idea is the linking of people, things said, things done, and locations in a readily understandable form.
What it does is immediately expose discrepancies.

Thanks very much for that PeterMac. Will have a read.

Hummingbird wrote:

tigger wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Payne statement only surfaced after Amaral had established that no independent witness had seen her after 4.30 that day.

The usual mix up occurred, Gerry, Payne and Kate all have different times and stories including the reason why Gerry asked Payne to look in.
I've been trying to find it myself - I'll have another go.

The Gaspar statement wasn't sent to the PJ until September, I believe the date of the covering letter is after the mcCanns left Portugal.
That's easily found in the McCannfiles. 24th October 2007 is the date of the covering letter from LP.

Do you mean Payne in your last paragraph?

4th May DP interview - mentions NOTHING about time beore 20:55 and arrival at restaurant

4th May FP Interview - They (meaning DP & herself) went to the beach with the children and her mother arriving about 15.45 left at 18.15 went to tennis courts until approx 19:00. Immediately after the witness headed to the apartment with her children and her mother. 10 mins later her husband (19:10) appeared in the apartment her mother helped by DP bathed the children whle FP went for a jog on beach till 20h.

(later in her RI she states that DP was already at beach and she went with just the girls)

4th May DW Interview - She went to the beach with the children her son in law and daughter. They arrived around 15.45 and left around 18.15 to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 19.00. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and 10 mins later her son in law David joined them and with her son in laws help they bathed the children (in her RI she says she thinks she may have gone back to apartment and does not mention D helping bathe the kids)

(she also states they all went to beach together)

10 & 11 May DP & FP NOT interviewed

DW Interview - at 19.00 she had gone together with the Payne couple and their children to the apartment in order to prepare them for bed. Then as usual the adults prepared themselves for dinner.


RI D PAYNE - (summarised for speed) Me and F had gone to beach we had the kids we had lunch in the apartment. (I think he means we got the kids and had lunch as the kids were signed into the clubs) That afternoon I wanted to go to the Ocean err to the beach and windsurf M & R had gone down. So I went down while F & DW were looking after the girls in apt. After we finished we met on beach and played with girls, then went to restaurant. Decided to play tennis so I left with Russell. I don't know how it happened but I went over to see G at the tennis courts just to see what was happening and decided that we'd I'd come back to play tennis and G had asked me to pop in and check everything was alright with KAte you know I can't remember the exact reason whether he was making sure he could have more time but no he asked me to pop in. I went to Kates at 6.30 and went in through patio doors it was after 7.30 that we left the courts.

(I decided to play tennis - according to FP in her RI it was booked and they had rearranged the time)

RI - F PAYNE - We had been sailing (am) and D & I took out a boat together we were drenched and cold so came back to apartment for more clothes about 11.30, sat by pool for a bit with DP saw K & G sat and had a chat. K & I walked to pick up kids only day we did that she picked up Madeleine and I picked up Scarlett (no mention of twins or her other daughter Lily!!)

Mum & I Dave I can't remember went to beach at 3.30. So in that group who walked to beach yeah, me mum I think as I say I can't for Dave. I think he was already had gone by then. Jane with erm Ella and Evie well it would have just it was just Evie because Ella was would have been in the kids club and erm yeah R was with Grace.

(Why was Ella at the kids club it is said that ALL the group were at the beach that afternoon and the kids ate at the beach - CAT NANNY Signs Ella out at 4.30 - WHO collected her then and took her to beach to join the others as this group did not get back till between 6 and 6.30pm?)

RI Continued No Kate didn't come they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon for the twins as well as M and they were the only ones doing that as I say sometimes Ella went in the afternoon but the younger ones non of us put them in the afternoons.
It was the mens tennis that night it was getting towards 6pm and I said you'd better go, you've moved the time, it's not fair if your late, so they left about 6pm then we walked back up to watch them play. By 7pm me and my Mum headed back to start bath time. Dave we left him playing we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back probably 10 mins later

RI D Webster- The men went back before us for tennis, think we went back to the play area or maybe I went back to the apartment.

Fiona went for a run I know that

(that was all she could remember no mention of bathing kids or bein helped by DP this time just FPs run she can remember)

Also this I find very odd.

Jane Tanner

4th May Interview - The witness did not go for breakfast that morning because she had tennis booked for 9am. It was her partner who took her daughters for breakfast having previously taken Ella to the the kids club, Ellie was not feeling well did not go to the kids club and went with ROB to look for JT. After the tennis lesson the witness her partner and daughter Ellie went to the beach where they stayed until 12.20 Then they went to pick up Ella form the kids club.

(what parents leave a child in a kids club and then go off to the beach with the other child?)

cont'd - They had lunch between 12.45 and 13.45 and after at about 14.00 JT played tennis again with RM.

Her daughters and Rachels daughter stayed in the apartment with the apartment with the respective parents (must mean fathers)

After tennis approx 14.45 the witness went to her apartment where she stayed with her daughter Ellie her partner had gone sailing with Matthew.

About 15.45 she went to the beach with RM DW FP and her 2 daughters and took Ellie along

Meanwhile Russell arrived from boat trip and went straight to pick up Ella from the kids club.

(again who leaves their daughter twice now in one day while they go off and have fun with everyone else at the beach - something is not right here about the leaving of this child this day while they go to the beach - also it would appear that she left at 15.45 and yet only 3/4 hour later ROB went back from the beach to collect their daughter - signed out by Cat Nanny? why did JT just not get her and take her for the sake of 3/4 hour?? As I say something is not right here with this leaving of the daughter)

JT has stated all of this in her first interview, yet FP in her first interview the very same day as JT and less than 24 after these events says she went to the beach with DP and her mother and it wasn't until her RIs changes it to going with all the women as the men were already there!

It would also appear on checking the creche records that Ellie was never put in the kids club throughout the holiday???? So why say at the very beginning she didn't go today because she was unwell?

I agree there is something very odd about their daughter Ellie. And it is very suspicious if she has not been signed on the creche sheets never in the kids club throughout the holiday? Maybe they used her as Maddie? There is only a few weeks between them in ages.

JT has stated all of this in her first interview, yet FP in her first interview the very same day as JT and less than 24 after these events says she went to the beach with DP and her mother and it wasn't until her RIs changes it to going with all the women as the men were already there!

Yet another total contradiction from these statements. If you look at the CCTV images DP does not look like he has just been windsurfing at all.

They have all completely changed and lied about this day, and there is a whole different story of events from their statements. How can they get it so wrong? Only if they are lying with every teeth in their mouths

david paynes descriptions of Maddie really sends shivers down my spine. He describes her as 'Doll like' 'An angel in all white" and this "Err oh yeah, you know I'm very sure that if you'd have asked them, you know that evening or the next day they'd all say ah yeah, I popped in. You know I, you know I did know the children very well, we'd all you know, met up many times before err you know I, you know again I'd be playing with Madeleine you know in the, err the play area err you know during that week, you know lifting her up, twizzing her round and everything, I knew her that well, you know, to do that, and as I say err she'd definitely know who I was and certainly, as I say, just to reinforce that she looked very happy.'"

Apart from when did he have time to twizz her around and everything as Maddie only ever seemed to be in kids club and in bed, does anyone describe their friends 4 year old kid like this? This man really creeps me out

tigger wrote:

Ribisl wrote:According to the official version GM had asked DP to give Kate a hand to take the chidren down to the play area. But Kate said no because the children were tired and ready for bed.

JD - if we combine this with the times given by the Paraiso bar CCTV from around 16.00 and list the separate timings of DP, FP, GM and KM, it's going to look very interesting.

The 'reason' for looking in on 5a also differs;
Gerry says it was to see if the children wanted to go to the playground. I can discount that completely. It's a typical Gerry 'what a wonderful dad I am' statement. On a par with reading the children bedtime stories. It's not in character.
But that time is given as 5.00 pm by DP. Probably the same as given by Gerry initially.
At some point during the interviews it must have occurred to GM that it would be better to have the visit later.
DP obliged in his usual way - pity he'd already been very precise on the 5.00 pm. one but what the hell. DP says it's to tell Kate G is going to be late, G asks if K needs help with the children. This makes more sense for the later version of 6.30 pm. It would have been too late to go to the playground by then.

DP and GM going down to the beach and GM being a broken man can't have happened imo.
GM being ' broken' may be partly true that night because so many things went wrong and were 'out of his control'. Gerry likes to have total control I think.

Fiona's run can (5.00 pm visit being out - do no tennis finishing before seven) barely be fitted in as she needed to shower and change as well if the tennis finished at nearly 8.00 pm.

They really are a monumentally boring lot this group. Endless mention of their jogging - being 'into' each other - it's all very nineties, when they were students and that's what they did then. Seems they're suffering from arrested development, especially the Ms with their adolescent wish for celebrity and applause. One is supposed to grow out of that sort of thing.

I think the reason they made up this 'payne visits kate mccann at 7pm' story was because the PJ were saying the last known sighting of Maddie independent of the celebrity child neglecters was at 5pm, so this fabricated story puts it at 7pm the last "independent" sighting i.e. narrows the time frame by the celebrity child neglecters would have had to discover Maddie dead and hide the body etc . david paynes originally 'sudden memory' was in October 2007 and even though it was at 5pm and with both the celebrity child neglecters were in the apartment. The CCTV images put him in the Parasido at 5.30pm

jd wrote:I agree there is something very odd about their daughter Ellie. And it is very suspicious if she has not been signed on the creche sheets never in the kids club throughout the holiday? Maybe they used her as Maddie? There is only a few weeks between them in ages.

JT has stated all of this in her first interview, yet FP in her first interview the very same day as JT and less than 24 after these events says she went to the beach with DP and her mother and it wasn't until her RIs changes it to going with all the women as the men were already there!

Yet another total contradiction from these statements. If you look at the CCTV images DP does not look like he has just been windsurfing at all.

They have all completely changed and lied about this day, and there is a whole different story of events from their statements. How can they get it so wrong? Only if they are lying with every teeth in their mouths

Ellie is the youngest according to JT and it was Ellie who was never put in the creche, Ella who was the same age as M was put in the creche every day am and pm even when her mummy and daddy were taking her little sister to the beach!!!!!!!!!! Makes no sense to me what so ever and for her mummy to leave her in the creche while she goes and walks to the beach only for her daddy to have to go back and get her out of the creche 3/4 hour later (yet signed out by nanny cat) makes even less sense!!

Are there any checking in airport records for ROB, JT and the two children?

Are there any checking in airport records for ROB, JT and the two children?

I would love to see all the airport check-ins etc, would answer a lot of questions. The only clue we may have is the airport video, assuming this was recorded on the PDL holiday

Just catching up on this thread which is very interesting indeed. So often, we tend to focus on one event or statement then drift away because we get bogged down, distracted, or the thread kind of disappears. But putting all the evidence together like this really can throw a totally new light on our understanding of what really went on. Well done everybody, especially jd and tigger.

Thank you Ribisl. I don't know if you noticed but on the david payne RI he said straight away in his reply that he went to check in on kate mccann "after' going to his apartment to get changed and on his way down. But when the police interviewer started pointing out the route he would have taken for this, then david payne suddenly changes his mind and comes out with a 50/50 if he went to kate mccanns apartment before or after his change into tennis clothes, and then babbles that it could have been before of after. Clearly he was struggling in himself what the best thing to say was to fit to the made up story, if it was true this 'visit' then he would not have struggled and not changed his mind. He would know and just said it, he had a year to clarify in his mind exactly the chain of events

Also, when asked a very simple question 'how long he spent in his apartment', if true he would have just answered something like 'about 3 mins' or similar. But instead he goes right around the houses quoting all the times of the evening which has nothing to do with the question asked, before finally arriving at the answer. Clearly struggling inside himself yet again to say the answer that best fits with the made up story and by going all around the houses he is buying himself time to think of what he should be saying, rather than a straight answer if it was true, which if this 'visit' was true he would have just answered. david payne is like this throughout the whole interview and the only thing he is positive about is how Maddie looked like a 'Doll' an "Angel' how 'he knew her that well' and she knew him 'that well'

1485 "How long did you spend in your apartment''

00:36:24 Reply "I mean again, we've you know, we've chatted about the timings and everything and you know looked at the photographs and you know, you know we were leaving about quarter past six from the err restaurant, we'd gotta walk up there, ten, fifteen minutes, conversation with Gerry, conversation with Kate, you know that's another five, ten minutes on to your ten, fifteen minutes walk so you're talking twenty five minutes, so that's taken you to twenty five to, twenty to seven, well you know we were certainly playing tennis for a, you know the best part of an hour err so you know it couldn't have been long that I was in the apartment, you know a matter of minutes.'

If he cant answer a simple question as that in a straight forward manner, then it can only mean the activity described did not take place.

So he's had to try and figure something out for an "answer" thus he rambled on off the point playing for time to come up with an answer he thought will best fit the scenario.

I am sure the Police got the answers they were looking for out of this lot during the RI; and knew they were all lying with as many teeth in their mouth. It's so patently obvious each T7 witness was trying to second guess what their other friend will say, with the resultant tjhey couldnt get their story to synchronise because they did not have facts to rely on for answers.

I am going right back to the beginning of the saga and early statements. Rather than direct people to the files I will copy over relevant parts of the group's early statements and highlight the points I find interesting. I have almost finished and hope that for people who are familiar with these statements the reading of certain parts yet again are not too tedious !

tigger wrote:

Stella wrote:I think they are both lying.

There is no way that Kate would have taken a shower with 3 children running around an unfamiliar apartment on their own. No protection on power sockets. Hard tiled floors. sliding doors that Madeleine could have opened. What a receipe for disaster.

Why not? They're not particularly careful of their children in any case. The visit was definitely a lie, the complete rogatory with DP is hilarious, 'all three, ermm children, were there, how nice ALL three looked etc.' See Dr. Roberts

Payne, popping his head inside te patiodoor, cannot have seen the childrens' bedroom, let alone the twins in their cots, and certainly not Madeleine in her bed if that's where they were.

And the twins, at their age, reading books?

Bump..Another important topic