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The timeline for the evening

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 29.06.11 18:04

@Me wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I have split this topic from Pat Brown thread as it was getting confusing, and that thread should be left for people talking about her book and asking any relevant questions.

Sorry candy, i consider myself suitably rebuked!

It all started due to my bringing up the time line put forward by Kate and the group into question which i felt was important in the context of Pat's theory.

I won't derail again!!

It's ok, it's just that your debate with Ringo is better on a thread of it's own! big grin

Chat away....
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 18:10

@Me wrote:
candyfloss wrote:I have split this topic from Pat Brown thread as it was getting confusing, and that thread should be left for people talking about her book and asking any relevant questions.

Sorry candy, i consider myself suitably rebuked!

It all started due to my bringing up the time line put forward by Kate and the group into question which i felt was important in the context of Pat's theory.

I won't derail again!!


No need to apologise Me, threads often go off topic, and it was just a bit confusing, as I thought it better with Pat being a busy person she could just have a thread where people asked about her theory etc.

As you were, as Get em says chat away thumbsup
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 18:42

I wondered what had happened to this thread!!

I will have a brief re-read back but may not be able to continue today...

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Ringo on 29.06.11 18:45

@Me wrote:
@Ringo wrote:Er...well that's why I was using the waiter's statement as the starting point. Do you accept that the waiter in question was one of the best placed independent witnesses to the events at the restaurant that evening? And that therefore when he says he first saw K & G at 8.45pm we can state quite confidently that they were both there before the meal had been ordered at that time?

No, you'd moved on to asking me what time Kate said they arrived. The waiter was in a position to know only what was going on in the restaurant in so much as he was taking orders and delivering them.

However he has not actually provided that much information has he because he doesn't know who was there and when and he certainly doesn't put Gerry there at the time of the Smiths sighting.

He is also not in a position to know what was going on outside of the restaurant and if an alarm was being raised elsewhere. So we have to treat his evidence in context against what the T9 claimed happened and what other witnesses reported.

It can't be used to disprove the executive chef's evidence nor the property manager's can it?

@Ringo wrote:Let's just stick to the statements and not muddy the waters with someone else's snide interpretations of events.

Well you may not like the tone of the article but it does raise valid issues about times and timelines doesn't it. 40 minutes is not long enough is it?

You've STILL not mentioned Kate's 10.00pm timeline despite my repeated requests for you to answer that point. Why is that?

As I've said, I wanted to start from a time that we were all agreed on and work on from there. In fact I wanted to look at a timeline without recourse to any of the Tapas statements or timeline (as you believe them all to be complete lies) - I wanted to ignore them completely.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 20:32

@Ringo wrote:As I've said, I wanted to start from a time that we were all agreed on and work on from there. In fact I wanted to look at a timeline without recourse to any of the Tapas statements or timeline (as you believe them all to be complete lies) - I wanted to ignore them completely.

Well do you believe the stickerbook to be an accurate indication of a starting point? If so why are there inconsistencies in the two timelines regarding visits. There are also discrepancies regarding the assembly of the group and the starting of the meal in the stickerbook timelines which shows "all assembled at poolside for dinner" at 20.45 yet Russ O'Brien and the Paynes in their statements say they didn't arrive whilst 9.00pm in their statements.

So it's safe to assume we don't have a reliable starting point.

From what i've seen so far i would say people were there from just after 8.30 onwards but that may change if we discover more information.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by pauline on 29.06.11 20:44

Has anyone got the accurate info on how much alcohol was ordered with the meal.

This could be very relevant to the statements. In vino veritas they say !

Kate says in the book she has a glass of wine in her apartment before dinner. How many pre dinner drinks did her friends have.
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 20:49

@pauline wrote:Has anyone got the accurate info on how much alcohol was ordered with the meal.

This could be very relevant to the statements. In vino veritas they say !

Kate says in the book she has a glass of wine in her apartment before dinner. How many pre dinner drinks did her friends have.

I'm not sure if it was the night of the 3rd May or a previous night but i recall seeing somewhere that 14 bottles of wine were saved to the table. Which is pretty good going by anyone's (other than Oliver Reed's) standards.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 20:55

@Me wrote:
@pauline wrote:Has anyone got the accurate info on how much alcohol was ordered with the meal.

This could be very relevant to the statements. In vino veritas they say !

Kate says in the book she has a glass of wine in her apartment before dinner. How many pre dinner drinks did her friends have.

I'm not sure if it was the night of the 3rd May or a previous night but i recall seeing somewhere that 14 bottles of wine were saved to the table. Which is pretty good going by anyone's (other than Oliver Reed's) standards.

I think there is a receipt somewhere in the PJ files for that meal and drinks.
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 21:00

candyfloss wrote:
@Me wrote:
@pauline wrote:Has anyone got the accurate info on how much alcohol was ordered with the meal.

This could be very relevant to the statements. In vino veritas they say !

Kate says in the book she has a glass of wine in her apartment before dinner. How many pre dinner drinks did her friends have.

I'm not sure if it was the night of the 3rd May or a previous night but i recall seeing somewhere that 14 bottles of wine were saved to the table. Which is pretty good going by anyone's (other than Oliver Reed's) standards.

I think there is a receipt somewhere in the PJ files for that meal and drinks.

I've had a quick look and i can't find anything.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 21:19

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by pauline on 29.06.11 21:40

Thanks folks for the answers.

14 bottles is a lot for 9 people (and that's assuming they all drank alcohol). I don't know the statistics but I would imagine that 10% + of any group would not drink or drink very little. I am based in Ireland. Irish people have a reputation for drinking but I know many people who don't drink or drink very little (like a glass of wire wine at a wedding!).

now its likely that the group had had predinner drink(s) in their apartment. Kate did in the truthful book.

Does the consumption of alcohol explain why their statements are inconsistent?

Frankly, and I regularly drink wine with meals, if I had had 1.5 bottles of wine with my dinner I would not remember exactly when fellow diners got up to check children/go to the toilet/whatever.
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Me on 29.06.11 21:58

candyfloss wrote:Knew I had seen it



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS_BOOKING.htm

Isn't that the booking form rather than a receipt of what they've consumed?

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 22:50

Yes you are right Me, but I'm sure I have seen a bill/receipt for that night - there is one somewhere...........

:: Receipt from the "Tapas nine's" meal on the evening show that there was only two bottles of wine drunk between them.


Taken from this [snipped].........

Latest From the Madeleine Files
3:37pm UK, Friday August 08, 2008

Sky News is continuing to plough through the 30,000 pages of files released by Portuguese police that make up their investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

Refresh throughout the day to hear what they say.

:: The files show Portuguese police wanted to bug Kate and Gerry McCann to eavesdrop on their conversations before making the couple "arguidos", or
formal suspects, last summer.


On August 1 last year detectives requested permission to place two bugs in the McCanns' apartment in Praia da Luz and one in their car. They were refused permission. The McCanns' arguido status was lifted on July 21, when prosecutors shelved the
case.

:: Four families stayed in Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment between the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine and further forensic searches, the case files say.

Just over a month after Madeleine went missing, flat 5A in Praia da Luz's Ocean Club resort was allowed to be occupied again. Despite the apartment being a crime scene, 11 people stayed there between June 12 and July 26 last year, raising the possibility that it was contaminated before fresh forensic examinations in August.

:: The case files show was another sighting of a girl resembling Madeleine in Belgium on May 27 last year. A Briton contacted police after seeing the child asleep on a train from Brussels to Antwerp, concluding she could have been drugged. She was accompanied by a balding 6ft white man aged about 40 who was wearing sports clothes. Leicestershire Police made a formal request through Interpol for the relevant train stations and surrounding areas to be checked for CCTV footage.

:: A lawyer in Guatemala accused the UK Government of intending to kidnap his daughter after the local British Consul told police he suspected she might be Madeleine McCann, the case files reveal.

Based on the Consul's tip-off, officials stopped a man with a young child resembling the missing girl in a shopping mall in Guatemala City in June last year. It turned out, though, he was her bodyguard and had been tasked with looking after the youngster while her mother shopped and had coffee. The Consul apologised for the mix-up but the child's family demanded a formal written apology from the British Embassy in Guatemala.

:: A Belgian woman reported seeing a young girl who looked "very much" like Madeleine with an Eastern European couple on a tram in Brussels 12 days after she disappeared, the files say.

:: Private detectives are investigating claims that Madeleine McCann was snatched to order for a Begian paedophile ring. Scotland Yard passed on a report from an informant who said a photo of a child on holiday in Portugal was taken and passed to a "purchaser" in Belgium days before she vanished.

:: Two police sniffer dogs picked up the same scent leading around the McCanns' apartment block after Madeleine went missing, the case files show. An aerial photograph included in the dossier shows that both animals followed identical routes from the front of apartment 5A in the Ocean Club resort. Portuguese police took the search dogs out on May 8 last year, five days after Madeleine vanished, after letting them sniff a towel used to dry Madeleine.

:: When they were taken out of the complex, the animals separately followed the path marked on the photograph. Experts concluded, though, it was difficult to make a "precise evaluation" as to whether the dogs had definitely picked up Madeleine's scent.

:: British sniffer dogs were brought at a later date.

:: Dutch shop worker Anna Stam, who said she may have seen Madeleine McCann in her shop has accused detectives of neglect.

:: The files show the FBI were also involved in the Madeleine case. They ran DNAtests when the body of a girl was washed up in Galveston Bay, Texas. The body turned out to be two-year-old murder victim Riley Ann Smith.

:: In Kate McCann's witness statement made to the police on September 6 last year she says she slept in her children's bedroom the night before Madeleine's disappearance after a row with husband Gerry. The statement, from the files, adds Madeleine slept in the same room as her parents on May 1.

:: A letter from the McCann's lawyer was sent to the Portuguese police on January 31 asking for information. The request was denied because of Kate and Gerry's arguido status at the time.

:: The files have revealed a letter written by Madeleine's mother Kate McCann to the head of the Portuguese police to keep the family informed about what was happening in the investigation.

:: A little girl calling herself "Maddy" and claiming to have been taken from her mother on holiday was seen in Amsterdam at the time Madeleine McCann disappeared, the case files show. The family's private detectives are pursuing the report

:: A document contained within the file from Portuguese police details why the McCanns were made Arguidos.

:: When police raided the McCann's rented villa in Praia a Luz they seized a bible and press clippings showing an advert for children's drug Calpol and an article about the McCann's "wall of silence"

:: Between 1 and 8 of August Portuguese police used sniffer dogs, trained to find human blood as well as people, to search five apartments at the holiday complex; Robert Murat's property in Praia Da Luz; the McCanns' new occupancy at Praia Da Luz; clothing from the McCann residence; Western beach in Praia Da Luz; Eastern beach in Praia Da Luz; 10 vehicles screened at Portimao.

:: Of the five apartments, the only report came from apartment 5a, the reported scene. The report said the dog alerted the rear bedroom in the immediate right-hand corner; the living room, behind the sofa; the veranda outside the parents' bedroom; the garden area directly under the veranda.

:: Nothing was found in Robert Murat's apartment or the McCanns' new apartment.

:: The Enhanced Vicitm Recovery dog (EVRD) did indicate one set of clothing. The report's author, though, says there are no further details.

:: The EVRD indicated a "scent" emitting from the right door of the McCann's car. It was then subject to a "full and physical examination and "no human remains were found."

:: The dog used to smell human blood was then tasked to screen the vehicle and alerted police to the "rear driver's side of the boot area". Forensic samples were taken and sent to a laboratory in the UK.

:: People from countries including Holland and Malta rang to inform police they had seen Madeleine. There was one "sighting" on a flight from New York to Brussels.

:: The files detail all kinds of other so-called sightings from people all over Europe and beyond.

:: Sky News has also found an email in the police files that was sent to Gerry McCann from a man claiming to know what happened to Madeleine. Police tracked it down to the Netherlands and found a cyber cafe with no CCTV. He/she asks for 2 million EUROS as a reward for the information, asking for an advance of 500,000.

:: The files show efits of two men based on descriptions from witnesses at the time. The files were sent to Interpol. Crucially, they were not given to the media.

:: Receipt from the "Tapas nine's" meal on the evening show that there was only two bottles of wine drunk between them.

:: Sky News has found a CCTV photocopy of Repsol petrol station on 4 May 2007 (day after Maddy disappeared) were a child matching Madeleine's description was spotted
Police have written "negativo" on it showing it wasn't Madeleine. There are several other pictures in different locations.

:: The files quote Portuguese public prosecuters who ruled their was "very little" conclusive in the police investigation with detectives failing to prove if Madeleine was dead or alive.

:: Sky News has translated a timeline by police taken from the files released yesterday showing events from when Madeleine's disappearance was reported to them and how the investigation took shape.

http://www.bebo.com/BlogView.jsp?MemberId=4051964389&BlogId=6888057430

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by pauline on 29.06.11 23:09

The document posted by candyfloss says


tinto 8
bronco 6
agus 9


I take that to mean 8 bottles of red wine, 6 bottles of white wine and not sure about agus - maybe it is bottled water. I took the wine to relate to the tapas group but maybe it also relates to the other booking.
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by Guest on 29.06.11 23:21

@pauline wrote:The document posted by candyfloss says


tinto 8
bronco 6
agus 9


I take that to mean 8 bottles of red wine, 6 bottles of white wine and not sure about agus - maybe it is bottled water. I took the wine to relate to the tapas group but maybe it also relates to the other booking.


I think it is agua, which is water. Which would be right a small bottle each with their meal.

Found this too - which tallies with the above figures of 8 + 6 = 14 .....................

But police reportedly have receipts showing that the group actually paid for 14 bottles of wine over the course of the afternoon and evening. In any event, the McCanns' friends have said that neither Kate nor Gerry seemed the least bit agitated during the dinner

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20060436,00.html



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Typewritten timeline by Tapas 9

Post by Guest on 02.09.12 20:37

I have read about the typewritten timeline of the Tapas 9 but not seen it until just now seeing it on the PJ files.

The typewritten timeline was handed to the PJ before the re-questioning of the group 10 May 2007. Presumably done so that they could all get the timelines synchronised amongst themselves.. after all the police had taken away their stickerbook timelines so probably needed to go through it all again.. This link also has the stickerbook timelines...

It might have already been done but can't see where at the moment -but might be worth seeing how the stickerbook and the typewritten timeline differ given they are only 6 days apart..

Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
========================================
[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
Original written in English.
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:

Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B

Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge.

Prior to 2030, a11 couples and children were in their apartments preparing for bedtime.
-5A (Madeleine, Amelie and Sean McCann).
-5B (G**** Oldfield),
-5D (E*** and E***O'Brien) and
-5H (L*** and S******* Payne)

2030: Standard booking for meal at Tapas restaurant for group - same all week (Sun-Thur)
2035: Gerry McCann (GM) and Kate McCann (KC) arrive at table at Tapas Restaurant.
2040: Jane Tanner (JT) arrives, followed shortly by Matthew Oldfield (MO) and Rachael Mampilly Oldfield (RMO).
2045: Russell O'Brien (RJO) arrives at table.
2055: MO returns to apartments to check on ground floor flats, passing David Payne (DP), Fiona Payne (FP) and her mother Dianne Webster (DW) on their way down to the table.
2057: MO listens outside all ground floor flats' windows on the car park side of the apartment (5A, 5B and 5D) to make sure they were asleep. At this time, all the shutters were down on each window.
2100: MO return to the table. Starters were ordered.
2105: GM returns to his flat (5A) and enters via the patio gate entrance. This and a child gate at the top of the stairs were closed at the time. He enters the flat via the patio door which is closed but unlocked.
The door is slightly ajar (about 45 degrees) which is unusual. All the 3 children were present and asleep. GM believes the shutter was down. The room in which the children are asleep is completely dark. On leaving the room, GM shuts the door to approximately 5 degrees. He then goes to the toilet to urinate.
2115: JT leaves table, and sees GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) outside the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.
As JT continued up the hill towards the junction with Rua A. da Silva, she sees a man carrying a child in his arms crossing left to right from the apartment side continuing east along Rua A. da Silva in the direction of the "Millennium Restaurant." He was on the same side of the road as JT 5-10 metres ahead of her.

Description of Man:
- Age 35 to 40.
- 1.7m tal1 approximately with a slim build.
- Good head of dark glossy hair, with possible flick of hair to the right. The hair was longer at the back (i.e not clippered or shaven).
- The central and the left side of the face were not seen.
- Full length trousers, casual, the material hanging without creases. The colour was possibly a browny mustard. They were not jeans.
- Long sleeved jacket, fastened at the front, possibly by a zipper. It had a gathered lower hem and was also possibly brownish in colour.
- Shoes may have been a semi-formal brogue.
- Whether he was wearing gloves or not could not be ascertained.
- He was not wearing a rucksack or any other identifiable objects.
- He was only carrying a child, with the head against the left upper chest away from JT and the feet to the right - i.e. cradling the child like a baby.
- He appeared to be walking in a rush to get somewhere.
- He was not someone JT recognised from the week.
- He was not dressed typically for a "tourist," or at least his clothing did not seem to be of UK origin and may well have been purchased in Portugal.

Description of Child:

- The child appeared to be a Caucasian girl about the ages of 3-4.
- She was seen to lie motionless/limp in the man's arms consistent with her sleeping or possibly drugged.
- She did not seem to be wrapped up well for the time of night wearing only pyjamas; the trousers were lightly coloured with a floral element, possibly with turn-ups. The top was not well seen though there was thought to be
another colour involved possibly pink.
- She was not wearing shoes.

JT checked only 5D entering via the deadlocked door on the car park side of the apartment. Both children inside were asleep. She did not check 5A or 5B.

2120: JT then returns to the restaurant, by which time GM had also returned. The entire party then begins eating their starters which have arrived.
2125: After starters, MO and RJO go back to the apartments via the car park entrance to check all flats. They go first to 5D where RJO's daughter Evie is heard crying. RJO enters flat, whilst MO checks inside 5B, and then returns to 5D.
2130: RJO remains in 5D as daughter has vomited. MO goes to check on 5A via the patio gate entrance. The outside gate is probably shut, but the child gate on the stairs up to the patio is possibly open. The patio door is closed but unlocked.
MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?
2135: MO returns to restaurant table, by which time main courses are arriving or being eaten. MO tells JT that Evie unwell.
2140: JT returns to 5D to take over care of Evie from RJO.
2145: RJO returns to table to eat main course leaving JT in 5D.
2155: RMO asked time at table. RJO's main course arrives.
2200: (approx): KM leaves table to check children in 5A. The patio gate is closed and the child gate is also probably closed. She enters through the closed patio entrance, with the curtains closed. She crosses the living area, and there is no noise from the children's bedroom. She is about to leave, when she notices the bedroom door was
open (approximately 60 degrees).
She starts to close it and it slams. Considering the patio doors had caused a draft, she checks these doors but they are closed. KM returns to the bedroom and opens the door to check the children were not disturbed by the noise.
At this point, she notices that Madeleine is missing. She checks the other single bed in the room and also Kate and Gerry's beds. Then she double checks that Madeleine was not in her bedroom again. At this point, she notices the curtains blowing forward with a gust of wind. She runs over, pulls open the curtain and notices the shutter was
completely raised, and the window pushed open to the left as far as possible.
She then completes a check of the bathroom, kitchen and wardrobes.
On failing to find Madeleine, she runs to the entrance of the restaurant, shouting from the path leading to the restaurant area raising the alarm that Madeleine was missing.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by aiyoyo on 03.09.12 17:03

I just find it strange that a bunch of adults even think about having timeline printed out to pass around and to give to Police.
I mean asking around for a printer on holiday for that purpose - come on!

They deal with a missing child as if a corporate meeting dealing with agenda.
Even if I use the word "bizzare" to describe their behavior it would be understated.

Despite the synchronized timeline it did them fat lot of good when the details in their interviews is anything but.....
Just goes to show they cant prepare for every eventuality.
Lies will be exposed for what they are one way or another.
There's so many ways to fabricate them but there's no way to hide them.


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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by tigger on 03.09.12 17:16

@ Stewie.
They also wanted to take this work of art with them for their interviews and were surprised that the PJ would not allow them to take the crib sheet with them. I always thought that highly amusing and indicative of their arrogant attitude to the police in particular and the world in general.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by sami on 03.09.12 21:57

In general though, the impression I get reading the statements, is that it is a bothersome, tiresome exercise for them. It is like they were witnesses to minor traffic accident and are being asked to recall what the saw time and time again. All the hums and haws and not being able to remember, what an inconvenience. There is no sense of urgency apparant, you never get the impression they have driven themselves crazy trying to remember the slightest little detail.

No, a child has vanished into thin air and the tapas crew seem inconvenienced.

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Re: The timeline for the evening

Post by tigger on 04.09.12 7:14

@sami wrote:In general though, the impression I get reading the statements, is that it is a bothersome, tiresome exercise for them. It is like they were witnesses to minor traffic accident and are being asked to recall what the saw time and time again. All the hums and haws and not being able to remember, what an inconvenience. There is no sense of urgency apparant, you never get the impression they have driven themselves crazy trying to remember the slightest little detail.

No, a child has vanished into thin air and the tapas crew seem inconvenienced.

Not to mention the parents just days after the event, when driving back at great speed to check a cctv image is mainly remembered for the driver going too fast.

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