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Post by Newintown 28.08.14 11:51

j.rob wrote:
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Well spotted Stewie [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

These were the movements for all of the adults, so why would a childs name enter into it? Especially when they were all tucked up in their beds allegedly. Not unless they had her on their minds at the time they was writing it, but why?

It is also around the time that a child allegedly was removed from an apartment. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Fascinating stuff. I think this time-line is supposed to have been written by Russell?

The first line: 

Matt returns 9.00 - 9.05 - listened at all 3.
                               - all shutters down.

Matt returns - from doing what?? Why not write the time, and then 'Matt check' as is written in most of the other 'checkings'? Cross-referencing with Gerry's time-line, I see that Gerry writes that at this time Matt checked on apartments 5A, 5B and 5D. So, presumably, that is what 'all 3' is supposed to mean in Russell's timeline? Interesting emphasis - particularly in Gerry's timeline - of 'all shutters' down. Surely the relevant shutters are the shutters in the McCann apartment?

Or, perhaps not? Perhaps shutters in apartments 5B (Oldfield's) and 5D (O'Brien and Tanner) are also relevant? 

The entry for 9.10pm - 9.15pm is also of interest. 

Jerry 9.10 - 9.15  in tv room + all well
? Did he check

Again, as with the first 'check' time, of note is that Jerry is written before the time, unlike the latter entries, where the time is written first (as has been done with all of Gerry's entries on his time-line) . Also of note the name Jerry, rather than Gerry. In Gerry's timeline - (which has the name - GERALD - at the bottom, although, the L is not clearly written, certainly not like the upper case L in the word ALL).

Also somewhat odd, to me, is that Jerry is in the 'tv' room. Although the typewritten entries in the PJ files record the word as 'the' room, it doesn't look like 'the' to me. And, in any case, given that this is a listing with only essential key words included, why would 'the' be included? Why write 'the' room, without defining which room? The bedroom? No, just 'the' room. There are no other 'the' or 'a' words - just the bare essentials. So why 'tv'?

Plus, why, would Russell have written, for the 9.10 - 9.15pm timeline relating to Jerry (supposedly Gerry McCann remember) : 'did HE check'? Gosh, Russell - did it not occur to you to ask Gerry before you helpfully wrote out timelines for police? You know, a really difficult question like: 'Gerry, when you went into your apartment for the 9.10pm, did you actually look into the children's bedroom and see Madeleine?'

Gee - I guess not. 

Or perhaps Russell is not asking this question of Gerry but of someone else?!

Thank God he's not my doctor, or any of them for that matter. 

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

A post made on Pat Brown's blog from November 2013 stated that the child being carried by GM at 10 p.m. could have been Ella O'Brien (JT's daughter), who was 3 years old -

We all talk about the Smith's family spotting a guy 60/80% like GM with a bumbling child in his arms! I really dont doubt about this sighting and that the guy happens be GM! But... can anyone say that the child he was carrying on was MM? I have my BIG doubts! Dont you think carrying a dead body was to risky for him? Dont forget he was a stranger in a strange land...he had no suficient knowledge of the ground he was walking on to hide a dead body...not only a couple of hours after the "event"!!! But...you may ask...if not MM then who? ELLA...Tanner's daughter, about the same age and appearance of MM....sedated! Gol of the mission? To be seen...but not recognized, so WE HAVE an abductor! Definitely...MM died 1st or 2nd May..not 3rd! No time to set up all the scenery, the story with the others and dispose the body in a temporary and safe place! NO WAY you could had done all that in 2/3 hours! As impossible as an abductor leaving the bedroom through that window with a child in his arms!

--------------------------------------

If GM was out and about in PDL around 10 p.m. with a child in his arms maybe he wasn't with the Tapas 7 when the timeline was drawn up, therefore GM's name was spelt wrongly and there was a question mark about him being in the TV room and whether he checked as he wasn't there to ask.

It also seems strange that Ella's name was written twice on the timelines, whoever wrote them up obviously had Ella's name on their brain.  Was it because Ella was to be picked up around those times to be carried around PDL.  Perhaps GM was on his way to pick Ella up from JT when he bumped into Jez Wilkins.

Could JT have had Ella with her to pass to GM when JW appeared.  Could it have been JT carrying Ella and she had to make some excuse about seeing a man carrying a child incase she had been seen by a tourist.  JT said in a TV interview "I was carrying her like this" ** before she stopped and checked herself.

** I can't remember her exact words.

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Post by palm tree 28.08.14 12:12

I still think it was Madeleine gm was carrying because there's too much complications for it to be Ella. Gm had no choice, I think the earlier plan was spoilt by JW, and I don't think gm wanted to be seen by anyone, hence the dark alley way.
IMO
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Post by j.rob 28.08.14 13:03

These are the time-lines typed out in the PJ files. There were one or two things that I saw differently or I thought might have been missed, so I have included or amended in blue. I think in the first timeline, the inclusion of the word door, which has been crossed out, at the 9.35 Matt check may be significant. And the - 1 reference underneath this is also of interest, in the context of one child going missing, ahem!

In the second timeline, at the 9.15pm Gerry check, where it has been written: 
'Gerry looks at room A' , there is another letter or number under the capital A - maybe a G or an E. (And my word - those hooks on the A/E/G  - a graphologist would have a field day! Reminds me of Gerry's 'wider agenda' flip chart where the word INVESTIGATION is heavily marked over in the last five letters - eek, something creepy about this). Also in this timeline it is written: 
'9.30  Russell O'Brien in 5D'. Then there follows the words  'poorly daughter', but there is a letter before this like a poorly defined T/t - maybe referring to the 'poorly daughter' as being Tanner's? Is Ella (who is practically the same age as Madeleine) Jane's daughter but not Russell's? (I believe the couple never married, not that this necessarily has any bearing on it.)




Timeline 1 (as per sticker book above)
 
8:45. pool
 
Matt returns 9.00-9.05 - listened at all 3
                               - all shutters down
 
Jerry 9.10-9.15 in tv room + all well
                      ? did he check
 
9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child
 
9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3
 
9.35 - Matt check door see twins
          - 1
 
9.50 - Russ returns
 
9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine
 
10pm - Alarm raised
 
Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)
 
8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food
 
9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down
 
9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A (G/E)  ? Door open to bedroom
 
9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]
 
9.30 Russell O'Brien in 5D. T/t  Poorly daughter
  l
9.55pm
 
10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate
 
Gerald
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Post by Newintown 28.08.14 13:04

palm tree wrote:I still think it was Madeleine gm was carrying because there's too much complications for it to be Ella. Gm had no choice, I think the earlier plan was spoilt by JW, and I don't think gm wanted to be seen by anyone, hence the dark alley way.
IMO

If cadaver odour was found in the apartment and on KM's clothes I doubt very much GM would be carrying a dead Madeleine through the streets of PDL.  What if GM had bumped into someone from the OC that recognised him and they wanted to have a chat about tennis or other OC activities, too risky I would think.

Only my opinon but Madeleine had been disposed of before 3rd May.

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Post by palm tree 28.08.14 13:14

Newintown wrote:
palm tree wrote:I still think it was Madeleine gm was carrying because there's too much complications for it to be Ella. Gm had no choice, I think the earlier plan was spoilt by JW, and I don't think gm wanted to be seen by anyone, hence the dark alley way.
IMO

If cadaver odour was found in the apartment and on KM's clothes I doubt very much GM would be carrying a dead Madeleine through the streets of PDL.  What if GM had bumped into someone from the OC that recognised him and they wanted to have a chat about tennis or other OC activities, too risky I would think.

Only my opinon but Madeleine had been disposed of before 3rd May.
So would gm and child be a decoy maybe? Was gm clothes on the floor with Kate's when the dogs marked them? Sorry Newintown, I'll check the video and see. Thank you.
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Post by Newintown 28.08.14 13:28

palm tree wrote:
Newintown wrote:
palm tree wrote:I still think it was Madeleine gm was carrying because there's too much complications for it to be Ella. Gm had no choice, I think the earlier plan was spoilt by JW, and I don't think gm wanted to be seen by anyone, hence the dark alley way.
IMO

If cadaver odour was found in the apartment and on KM's clothes I doubt very much GM would be carrying a dead Madeleine through the streets of PDL.  What if GM had bumped into someone from the OC that recognised him and they wanted to have a chat about tennis or other OC activities, too risky I would think.

Only my opinon but Madeleine had been disposed of before 3rd May.
So would gm and child be a decoy maybe? Was gm clothes on the floor with Kate's when the dogs marked them? Sorry Newintown, I'll check the video and see. Thank you.

Yes, probably a decoy, but of course it's all guesswork for all of us.  If GM was carrying away Madeleine and didn't want to be seen I would have thought he would take the dark back roads (dusty tracks) away from any bars or buildings.  I did see a map somewhere on this forum which showed the different routes GM could have taken if he didn't want to be seen.

As far as I know the dogs only marked to KM's clothes.

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Post by Guest 28.08.14 13:33

Newintown The dogs did also alert to a little red tshirt.
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Post by Newintown 28.08.14 13:38

parapono wrote:Newintown The dogs did also alert to a little red tshirt.

Oh yes, you're right.  I forgot about that.  Wasn't that the one that Sean was seen wearing in a photo. GM mentioned later that Sean had got a liking for Seabass, which many people have since pointed out that Seabass would not be appropriate food for an 18 month old child as it's full of bones.

The odour of Seabass is very similar to cadaver, very handy that Sean had taken a liking to such a bony fish at such a young age.

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Post by palm tree 28.08.14 13:43

Pj took clothes on the 2nd of August so, silly I know, but what was gm wearing that day? Also remember in the book km says they where left with only the clothes they had on them ( or similar words). If he had the beige trousers on him on the 2nd, then they've missed them. Surely the pj didn't strip them that day aswell. So, is there a way to find out what gm was wearing on that day?
IMO

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Post by Guest 28.08.14 14:06

Sean was 27 (not 18) months old in May 2007 - I'm sure that's old enough for sea bass!!
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Post by Newintown 28.08.14 14:08

palm tree wrote:Pj took clothes on the 2nd of August so, silly I know, but what was gm wearing that day? Also remember in the book km says they where left with only the clothes they had on them ( or similar words). If he had the beige trousers on him on the 2nd, then they've missed them. Surely the pj didn't strip them that day aswell. So, is there a way to find out what gm was wearing on that day?
IMO

That's a very good point, I don't recall it being mentioned before.  I know the beige trousers with buttons down the side were photographed by the GNR on G & K McCann's bed, but as to what GM was wearing on 2nd August, I have no idea.  Perhaps someone on the forum who has done much research may be able to answer that.

It does seem strange that the dogs reacted to KM's clothes and not GM's clothes, another mystery, unless GM disposed of his clothes for some reason (blood stained perhaps).

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Post by Newintown 28.08.14 14:13

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Sean was 27 (not 18) months old in May 2007 - I'm sure that's old enough for sea bass!!

Sorry, I'm getting confused with ages.  Still people have mentioned that sea bass if very bony, and not really suitable for a small child, although I've never eaten it myself.   Too expensive for the small portions you get in a restaurant, I like big portions being a piggy!  smilie

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Post by Guest 28.08.14 14:21

I was joking about sea bass being suitable for a young child; I certainly don't think that it is.
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Post by Guest 28.08.14 14:25

Nor were those cots suitable for their age.
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Post by notlongnow 28.08.14 14:46

Anyone know when this timeline was written?
Was it before the gnr arrived or whilst they were there?
Were they asked by the gnr to write it?
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Post by j.rob 28.08.14 14:50

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:By all accounts though, JW was known as Jes or Jez.

I  suppose it is  possible that he is also known as Jerry sometimes, or used to be. Or maybe some people know him as Jerry. If you google 'Jerry Wilkins film producer' images, it links to images of him and also of the McCanns. 

Still think it is odd that if the timelines were both written by Russell (but the writing is different?!) then why would he spell Gerry in two different ways? That just doesn't make sense to me.

The Donal MacIntyre links are interesting. Given that after the 'disappearance' MacIntyre spent a week at Ocean Club working out how the 'abductors' managed to steal Madeleine. Hmmmm.

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Post by comperedna 28.08.14 14:51

Re the cots... fully awake and lively children of that age could easily get out of travel cots like that. They are only suitable for younger children. Not one of my several lively grandchildren would have been incapable of doing so. It is the behaviour of the children when supposedly left on their own that just does not ring true to me.

Why didn't Madeleine get up, switch all the lights on, and muck about in 101 ways, shouting and running from room to room, rather than miserably crying, in cahoots with her younger siblings and leading them in mischief... ie jumping off beds... raiding the fridge... shying stuff about the place... and above all... why didn't MBM go out on the balcony and yell: 'Mummy, Daddy... where are you!' and then go off exploring (down the steps and over the pretty useless to stop a child of her age) to see if she could find them? Despite the probably daunting darkness there was some artificial light. The only explanation that I think fits is that they were all three given something pretty strong 'to help them sleep'.

Some years ago, I wondered if after all Madeleine might have got out of the flat and wandered off searching for her parents, and got knocked down by some passing motorist, and killed, and to avoid a hit and run charge, he/she went off with the body and got rid of it somewhere, somehow.

... But then... there is the compelling indicative evidence of the dogs...
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Post by TheTruthWillOut 28.08.14 15:06

notlongnow wrote:Anyone know when this timeline was written?
Was it before the gnr arrived or whilst they were there?
Were they asked by the gnr to write it?

2:00am-3:00am according to his Rogatory interview.

Russell o'brien wrote:Clarified who made the time line handed to Portuguese officers- I had written it- both copies, in consultation with Dave and Gerry. It was written 02:00-03:00 hours in Gerry’s room. It was my idea a form of gathering information and putting things in order. This was after the searches which were again conducted around 01:00-02:00hours. (page nine)

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Post by PeterMac 28.08.14 15:25

And although Madeline was still technically three, she was only 8 days from her fourth birthday.
And the parents insist she was forward, articulate brilliant at tennis, swimming, surfing, sailing and everything else. Quite a remarkable child.
So why couldn't she open a door ?
OK I know she didn't, but why do they insist that she couldn't
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Post by palm tree 28.08.14 15:36

@Newintown, iirc, the pics of the beige trousers were taken on 3/4th of the crime scene, but now I'm thinking of it, if smithman was gm, beige trousers et all, that actually would confirm that gm had changed clothes on that night would it? If there was blood on them then yes certainly they would've ended up in the bin, but with minute specks found in the apartment, he'd have been sure no blood was seen on them? Plus, they knew no cadaver dogs would have been brought in on that night. On the 3rd of August he was wearing 3/4 green trousers, so it's possible he was wearing the beige the day before.
IMO

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Post by comperedna 28.08.14 15:52

Petermac... My currently three year old granddaughter can cope with several sorts of doors, including the stiff external back door.
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Post by MissesWillYa 28.08.14 16:25

I find the twins' sound sleeping during the "alarm" period very troubling. But I don't see what's so odd about them sleeping in those travel beds. We had one for our children and they both slept in it away from home until they were about three years old, around the same time we switched them from the crib (cot) at home. I put a fitted sheet on the little mattress inside the travel bed and gave them a light blanket and they slept just fine. Nobody ever tipped it over or tried to climb out. Maybe we're just lucky. I wasn't concerned, though. Most people I knew used them with toddlers while traveling. I am in the US, so it's possible ours was larger or sturdier than what is available in Europe? I don't know. I can say that my son, who was just over 36 inches tall at his third birthday, could sleep stretched out and comfortable in it around that time, which he did while he stayed with his grandparents during his younger sister's birth. So for me, the fact of the Mc twins sleeping in the cots doesn't raise any concern or doubt, and doesn't seem like it could only be achieved by drugging them, though I do think something like that may have been going on but for other reasons. Just my humble opinion.
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Post by nglfi 28.08.14 16:45

nglfi wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It was Russell O'Brien who wrote the timeline (thanks to J Rob for reminding me who it was) and it's my understanding that he didn't know the McCanns as well as the Paynes did.
Thanks NFWTD, so it was known at the time that he didn't know the McCanns that well. Begs the question why they would entrust him with something so important as timelines. I can't imagine myself getting so involved in a reconstruction like this if I didn't know the people that well, unless of course I also had something to lose by the 'right' sequence of events not being given to the police.
I'm just watching the RTE Late Late show interview, and Gerry says that he knew Russell from having worked with him for 6 months, it's from about 7 mins in.  He gives the impression that he was reasonably good friends with him, and he then goes on to say the Paynes were their best friends and they knew them better. So to me it does seem strange that Russell couldn't spell his friend's name if they had worked together for 6 months and had presumably seen each other's names written down. Perhaps I'm making too much out of this but the way the timeline is written just leaps out at me for several different reasons. Writing 'Jerry' really does look like Russell wasn't aware it was short for Gerald. Or maybe in the stressed atmosphere he just spelt it wrong  smilie
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Post by j.rob 28.08.14 17:19

I wonder if Madeleine was removed from the apartment/resort on Wednesday (evening)? Which would account for Kate claiming she thought the abductor had done a 'dummy run' on Wednesday evening and could have drugged Madeleine as she was so sleepy on Thursday? Kate even suggests that the abductor could have drugged Madeleine (and the twins?) on Thursday in the day.

One of the reasons I can think of for Kate making this claim is that Madeleine (and the twins?) HAD been drugged during the week and that the Mcs needed to cover their backs in the event that Madeleine was found and/or in the event that the twins were tested for sedatives/found to be in a drug-induced coma.

It obviously also answers the question as to how (someone) could take a sleeping Madeleine away without waking her up and without disturbing the twins.

Perhaps Wednesday was 'D' day in terms of Madeleine being hidden. All three children (assuming Madeleine was still alive at this point?) sedated to facilitate the procedure. 

Thursday was the evening of the staged 'enactment'. With, maybe, Ella being used as the 'Madeleine' stand-in to give credence to the mystery abduction theory?
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Post by comperedna 28.08.14 17:52

I think the UK travel cots must be MUCH smaller than the US ones. As soon as a child can stand and climb a bit, they are not really safe. That would account for the difference. I don't know about the ones in Portugal.

Now, more grown up, my grandchildren are very polite, helpful and 'biddable'. However at ages 2 and 3, I was on the phone with an urgent call and the two of my own children left their toys, with which they had been happily playing, and went into the kitchen of our small flat unseen. The younger one, who DID know it was naughty, opened the fridge door. My three year old daughter, who even more knew it was wrong, 'egged' (sorry) him on. He took a pack of half-a-dozen eggs and shied them all over the kitchen floor. Then they both poked the yolks until they split. It was the giggles and general hilarity over this latter activity that caused me to break off the call and run in there. My point being that at that age, especially if playing together, children can never really be left to their own devices.
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