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The creche enquiry - Page 2 Mm11

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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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The creche enquiry - Page 2 Mm11

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The creche enquiry

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Post by Guest 22.06.11 14:10

pauline wrote:Like puzzled I am not yet convinced about the creche signing in sheets.

Were the actual parents/guardians meant to sign in their own children? It could be a requirement for insurance reasons.
Please see entry in red at the bottom of this post.

If there was such a rule, this would sometimes be inconvenient so you might ask someone else to drop in your child and sign YOUR name.
There is nothing wrong with dropping someone elses child off to creche, but if you had arranged to do so with the nanny, you should use your own name and signature not someone elses.

This would explain different handwriting styles. And maybe also confusing the child's name with a similar one.
It certainly does explain why some of the handwriting does not belong to the name beside it. What it does not explain is why none of them mentioned it in any of their statements.

Or two sets of parents (who know one another) could arrive together and the parent closest to the signing in book would sign in both sets of children for convenience to allow the other parent to get to the tennis court or wherever.
Perhaps this explains why Madeleine and the Naylor child is signed in frequently at exactly the same time or very nearly the same time. But why did Gerry never mention knowing Robert Naylor? and how did any of them know how the other persons signature went?

Personally I don't take signing in generally that seriously.
This was not an entry book into a public building. This was for the safety and security of very young children.
I am often asked to sign in to buildings and I would often sign in a colleague with me for example. My writing could vary considerably as I would scribble to minimise the delay at the reception desk. And I've noticed that those in charge of signing in books don't always bother too much with what you put.
If they knew you, they obviously trusted you.

Are we overanalysing the creche records? No

Are we over analysing these creche records. Definitely not. This is a missing persons/murder investigation and as such every single avenue that can be explored, needs to be explored. You may not think it is important, but a great many people do.

Catriona Baker said;

"Mark Warner has a standard procedure, the signature on a page when a parent leaves or checks-in a child. There is a separate page for the morning and one for the afternoon. The page contains the name of the child, the hour of sign-in and the hour of pick-up for the afternoon. Only the parents have authority to take the children, except when there is some other agreement".
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 14:26

Question:

On the afternoon of April 30th, just when Madeleine had been signed in and out again after just 15 minutes. Russell O'Brien comes along at 16.00 and signs his daughter in for the first time that afternoon. The session should end at 17.00.
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2551-creche-sheets-and-attendance-charts

Why did he have to sign his daughter in for the last remaining hour?
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 14:39

The creche enquiry - Page 2 APR30

Whose writing is this from the 30th April ?
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 14:47

The creche enquiry - Page 2 MAY2

Who wrote this entry on May 2nd ?

I thought Kate said in her book that after May 3rd she suddenly became Kate Healy?
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 14:56

The creche enquiry - Page 2 APR30v2

Who wrote these entries on Apr 30th?

It would appear that Russell now thinks he was in apartment G5B, instead of G5D according to the MW booking sheets.
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 15:15

The creche enquiry - Page 2 May1duo

May 1st - Last one out AM, first one in PM
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 15:18

The creche enquiry - Page 2 May3duo

May 3rd - Last one out AM, first one in PM
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Post by LittleMissMolly 22.06.11 15:46

To me it seems that, despite what Catriona Baker tells us is Mark Warner's POLICY, the reality was somewhat different, with no-one really keeping tabs on who exactly signed the sheets... if indeed they were routinely signed by those dropping off/picking up the children at all [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Here's a scenario ...

Busy staff, lots of children, lots of noise ... parents in a hurry to drop off a child but the book is being signed/used by someone else at the time they arrive. So the Nanny says "Oh don't worry, I'll sign her in just as soon as Mr X has finished - you get off to your tennis lesson" ... parent disappears and the book is then brought up to date by the Nanny.

Of course sometimes that Nanny would get distracted and not fill in the book immediately ... so she might forget the exact time the child was dropped off, or she might then find herself having to falsify the dropping off/picking up time because someone else has made an entry in the meantime and the times would therefore be 'jumping around'.

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Post by Guest 22.06.11 15:54

You do have a point LittleMissMolly. But there are many examples of Cat's writing all over the sheets. In the afternoons especially, but she writes 'cat nanny' and I've not seen her entering a guests name on any of the sheets.

Study Gerry's handwriting. The slant at the end of the name rising up at the end. The sharp tips to the letters N and R.

Then look at the numbers. Especially the 7. Look at how the minutes after the hour are elevated. Also look for entries that line up exactly with what is above.

See anything interesting now? The creche enquiry - Page 2 302873
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 16:02

Stella wrote:The creche enquiry - Page 2 APR30

This is Gerry's handwriting. Notice the slanting up at the end of McCann. The 30 on 9.30 is elevated.

What I would like to know is, is the N and A in McCann, similar to the N and the A in Naylor ?

Do you think that Robert also rises at the end ?
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 16:22

The creche enquiry - Page 2 APR30rob


Is this really Russell O'Briens writing on the the 30th April ? Why did he not use his daughters name ?

Look at the R, the N and the lift at the end.
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Post by LittleMissMolly 22.06.11 16:34

Stella wrote:
Stella wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This is Gerry's handwriting. Notice the slanting up at the end of McCann. The 30 on 9.30 is elevated.

What I would like to know is, is the N and A in McCann, similar to the N and the A in Naylor ?

Do you think that Robert also rises at the end ?

Personally I'd say that the N and A in McCann are in different handwriting to the same letters in Naylor .... the N in Naylor is very upright and 'pointy' (as indeed is the A), whereas in the McCann line the Ns are more rounded and have a definite slant to the right (a trait which is repeated in the word 'Tennis') ... similarly the A in McCann is rounded, with the same trait being repeated in the apartment number.

One thing that does intrigue me is why Mr Naylor's signature is missing.

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Post by Guest 22.06.11 16:36

sunmontuewedthur
Lobsters2930123
AM in9.459.309.309.209.10
AM out12.1512.1012.2012.3012.25
PM in2.453.152.302.452.50
PM out5.303.305.305.30
Jellyfish2930123
AM inmissing9.209.209.10missing
AM outmissing12.1512.2012.25missing
PM in2.353.252.302.402.45
PM out5.305.205.205.205.25
KMsigned
GMsigned
Madeleine not siged out


This is a chart I have produced to show who signed the McCann children in and out that week.

Why was Madeleine not signed out in the afternoon on May 1st ?

On the 2nd of May at 12.30, Cat nanny signs Madeleine out. (in yellow above)

On the 3rd in the morning, for the first time that week Kate signs Madeleine out. Where was Gerry and what was he doing ?

Why was the twins creche sheets witheld from the DVD for the 3rd ?
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Post by Guest 22.06.11 16:40

LittleMissMolly wrote:

One thing that does intrigue me is why Mr Naylor's signature is missing.

Look at Mr Naylors signatures for the whole week and see if you see anything odd.

Sorry, but I have to go now as it's dinner time soon. But will be back in the morning. The creche enquiry - Page 2 375754
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Post by LittleMissMolly 22.06.11 16:48

Stella wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Is this really Russell O'Briens writing on the the 30th April ? Why did he not use his daughters name ?

Look at the R, the N and the lift at the end.

I'm not convinced that the 'line' of the lettering is indicative ... but if you look at the R from this O'Brien entry and compare it to the R in Robert (Naylor) then they are completely differently formed - althought the Ns are similar in both entries.

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Post by LittleMissMolly 22.06.11 16:50

Stella wrote:
LittleMissMolly wrote:

One thing that does intrigue me is why Mr Naylor's signature is missing.

Look at Mr Naylors signatures for the whole week and see if you see anything odd.

Sorry, but I have to go now as it's dinner time soon. But will be back in the morning. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Mmmmm Dinner [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Enjoy! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Post by Guest 23.06.11 8:11

I know it's a bit of a mammoth task to do, but it will be well worth it in the end. The examples I have posted up over the last few pages are my really bad scans of the copies of the original pages. I would recommend to anyone who is interested in this, to access the best copies via the site I will add at the bottom. Then print 2 sets off, enlarged. With one set, cut out all of the McCann, Naylor and O'Brien entries and put them in date order all on top of each other, as close together as you can. You may need more than one set to do this. Make sure it is in the correct date order.

Trust me, the more you study this, the more you will see.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CRECHE.htm

note that the sheet without a date is the 29th April.
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Post by Guest 23.06.11 8:27

A couple of months ago I did another one of my home tests. The creche enquiry - Page 2 742129

I got a piece of paper and 5 different pens and left them on a table. On day one I signed my name with one of the pens, then folded over the section of the page I had just signed, so that you could no longer see it. Then removed the pen. On day two and using a different pen, I signed the paper once again and repeated the process. Folding the paper over and removing the pen. Then repeated the exercise on all of the rest of the days.

In doing this exercise, I replicated what would have happened every day at the creche and also factored into it that a different pen may have been used, just to cover every base.

On the 5th day and for the first time I opened up the paper to reveal 5 examples of my signature, one above the other. What I saw was, that despite one whole day and one whole nights sleep in between each signature, all five examples were exactly the same. The creche enquiry - Page 2 302873 Just as they should be.

Now bear this in mind when looking at these individuals entries for the whole week.
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Post by The doc 23.06.11 8:46

Stella, from reading your posts I have the feeling that you think you are actually working on this case. If that is true you really need help
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Post by Guest 23.06.11 8:57

The doc wrote:Stella, from reading your posts I have the feeling that you think you are actually working on this case. If that is true you really need help

Well The doc. When posters like you come on here for the first time in attack mode, I know that I am onto something very important. Thanks.
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Post by The doc 23.06.11 9:15

No not attack mode, just worried about your state of mind. So you are onto something very important. Of course you are. See this proves to me that you think you are working this case. I am sure that you have so much more experience then the police  The creche enquiry - Page 2 302873 . You really should go and read ALL the files and stop trying to come up with crazy conspiracy theories. No matter what you dream up the Mccanns did not do anything to THEIR daughter.
 
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Post by Guest 23.06.11 9:21

The doc wrote:No matter what you dream up the Mccanns did not do anything to THEIR daughter.
 

You must know the McCann's personally to state that as fact?
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Post by pauline 23.06.11 9:31

Stella, in your experiment your signatures came out the same.

But i don't agree that would necessarily be the case with other people.

My handwriting varies. And i suspect I'm not the only person whose writing changes. For example I would sign an important letter with my 'best' writing, whereas i might scribble a signature with something inconsequential. Signing into a building or a child into a creche, I might print my name, it could be reasonably legible or it might be scribble. It would depend on my humour on the day, was there a decent space to write on (ie table and width of line to sign on).

Now a handwriting expert would be able to identify all my efforts as me I presume. Before computers when I would write a lot, my handwriting would have been both neater and more consistent but now virtually everything I write is on my PC so when I have to handwrite I hardly seem to know how to!

Are there other PC users out there who find handwriting anything challenging?
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Post by Guest 23.06.11 9:48

To The Doc: I don't know what happened to Madeleine but the evidence suggests strongly that the McCanns do. I hope that you will read all the information on this site with an open mind.
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Post by Guest 23.06.11 9:59

pauline wrote:Stella, in your experiment your signatures came out the same.

But i don't agree that would necessarily be the case with other people.

My handwriting varies. And i suspect I'm not the only person whose writing changes. For example I would sign an important letter with my 'best' writing, whereas i might scribble a signature with something inconsequential. Signing into a building or a child into a creche, I might print my name, it could be reasonably legible or it might be scribble. It would depend on my humour on the day, was there a decent space to write on (ie table and width of line to sign on).

Now a handwriting expert would be able to identify all my efforts as me I presume. Before computers when I would write a lot, my handwriting would have been both neater and more consistent but now virtually everything I write is on my PC so when I have to handwrite I hardly seem to know how to!

Are there other PC users out there who find handwriting anything challenging?

The signatures on those sheets have been done by professional people who have had to sign their names very frequently at work, probably all day, every day. Yes of course there should be slight variations. But not a huge variation, but not completely different. There are many examples of Gerry's signature all throughout the released files. Just as there are many examples of Russell O'Brien's. I will post some of his up for you in a moment and you will see how different they are, to what is on those sheets. As for the other person. Apparently someone on this site has an original copy of his and it is nothing remotely similar to what has been entered onto those creche sheets. The creche enquiry - Page 2 302873

So you see Pauline. Not only are there other people very interested in these signatures. They have gone to great lengths to find the real thing and know that some of those signatures are fakes.
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