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The 50 Facts Rebuttal

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 9:37

Stella wrote:
Me wrote:

MMRG quote: the window had been cleaned the day before.
Actually: How
is it possible to verify whether the window was cleaned the day before
if there is no record of this in the statement given to the PJ by the
cleaner of the apartment? There is also no other mention in the official
files stating that she or anyone else had cleaned that window.


But what we do have is verbal confirmation, on more than one occassion from Goncalo Amaral that they were cleaned the day before. We may have to assume that the 'cleaning of them' statement is in the witheld section of the files. Perhaps the window cleaner spotted something very important whilst in their apartment?

I believe this is the quote from the book:

"on the window, there were no signs of forcing or of gloves, and it had been cleaned the day before, by the employee that had cleaned the apartment. The only fingerprints that were found on it belong to Kate Healy. The sense and the position of the fingers that were imprinted on the window indicate a movement of opening it to the left"

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by PeterMac on 16.06.11 9:42

p. 73 "In the children's room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that is could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we'd thought."
His fingerprints were not found on the outside of the shutter. Why not ?

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 9:45

Here's a second confirmation from Gonçalo Amaral and Hernâni Carvalho on TVI 30 July 2008 


Second inconsistency is that the window was cleaned on the previous day by the Ocean Club employees, and the only finger prints (thumb and middle finger) that were found were the ones of Kate and it was evident through the position of the prints that the window was opened from the inside, to the left. Kate McCann stated that she never touched the window

A Third repeating (Translated by Joana, Ines & Mercedes)

Gonçalo Amaral in El Mundo: Gerry McCann hid Madeleine corpse in the Beach

8 September 2008

Gonçalo Amaral: Gerry McCann hid Madeleine corpse in the Beach – El Mundo Interview
By Silvia Taulés

The apartment window stayed always shut, in spite of what Kate McCann said
The girl might have fallen from the sofa; there could have been an accident because of the sleeping solution


Madrid - He arrives late, with a certain’ star’ look. His book (Esquilo, 2008), which will be officially presented on the 9 of September, has sold 120.000 copies in two weeks, a record in Portugal.

This, once begun, was unstoppable. Gonçalo Amaral, the visible head of an investigation that had thousands of people in suspense, tells why he remains insistent that it was Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry, who were responsible for her disappearance.

Question – You defend the theory that the parents are guilty of what happened to Madeleine McCann.

Answer – No. That is not in the book.

Q - However that is the theory that one can understand from reading it.

A - From the synopsis you also obtain the same conclusions of the book.

Q - What are the reasons that make you believe that imply the McCanns in the disappearance of their daughter?

A - First, it is that they always defended the theory of the kidnapping. The mother said that the window of the room was open when she saw that the girl was not there. That is not correct, the window was closed and is impossible that the girl left that way. We worked in the apartment and the window was closed. The parents have always defended that the girl was alive and they were the first saying that Maddie could be dead.

Q - Other evidences?

A - The witnesses, there were several incongruities between their statements. Those that had dinner with the McCanns that one night, their friends, invented the system of monitoring of the children. Why? There are various details that take to you to think about the culpability of the parents. There are two different lists about the monitoring system.

Q - You speak of incongruities in the declarations about the monitoring system. The book also indicates that the nine people who had dinner together drank an average of eight wine bottles, four of red and four of white. Isn’t there the possibility that, between the disappearance and the alcohol, they were confused and that they did not remember the exact minutes in which they watched the children?

A - Right, but then there is the window where we found Kate’s finger prints, the mother of the girl. She said that she had never touched that window, and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day. And above all she said that the window was open when it was closed, it doesn’t add up.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 9:55

So am i correct in assuming we've dealt with all issues on rebuttal question 1 apart from this one:

MMRG quote: they ’phoned relatives that night saying: ‘An abductor broke in and took Madeleine’

Actually: After the initial unsuccessful search and thinking it wasn’t possible for Madeleine to go out on her own or have opened the bedroom shutters and window, Gerry told everybody (including his sister) Madeleine was abducted. His sister said in a newspaper interview: "They think someone must have come by the window and gone out the door with her.


So do we have proof they searched and do we have proof that their immiedate response was abduction? Let's go to work! big grin

Just thinking when we've cleared all the points for one question we should (or perhaps a mod) pull alll the replies together in one coherent post which addresses each rebuttal fact accoridngly. Do we agree?

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 10:15

PeterMac wrote:p. 73 "In the children's room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that is could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we'd thought."
His fingerprints were not found on the outside of the shutter. Why not ?

This is where it gets even more interesting imo.

As you say Peter, his prints should have been on the shutter in that case. They should have been seen in the opening position from the outside. But according to the Dispatches experts, the few prints we did see with the dragon's blood, revealed that someone had pushed the shutter up from the inside only. So another confirmation from them that Gerry did not do as Kate has said. The sceptics might say that what they did find was unidentifiable and could therefore have been Gerry's, but all of those criminal experts agreed, that what we saw was someone trying to open it from the inside only.
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 10:29

Me wrote:So am i correct in assuming we've dealt with all issues on rebuttal question 1 apart from this one:

MMRG quote: they ’phoned relatives that night saying: ‘An abductor broke in and took Madeleine’

Actually: After the initial unsuccessful search and thinking it wasn’t possible for Madeleine to go out on her own or have opened the bedroom shutters and window, Gerry told everybody (including his sister) Madeleine was abducted. His sister said in a newspaper interview: "They think someone must have come by the window and gone out the door with her.


So do we have proof they searched and do we have proof that their immiedate response was abduction? Let's go to work!

Just thinking when we've cleared all the points for one question we should (or perhaps a mod) pull alll the replies together in one coherent post which addresses each rebuttal fact accoridngly. Do we agree?

We need to do something to streamline the replies, so that they are fairly short and straight to the point imo. But I would like to nominate you Me, I think you're the best man for the job. You are very good with words.

But if you have your hands full, please say so and we will have to think about this. I'm not a w.p.m sort of person, if you know what I mean and to much typing tyres me out these days. Give me a report with a set of figures in and I'm happy as Larry.

As for proof re the claims of abduction, I will try to find Jill Renwick's TV report on GMTV, from the morning of the 4th. 3 million viewers is enough proof in my eyes.
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 10:36

Stella wrote:
PeterMac wrote:p. 73 "In the children's room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that is could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we'd thought."
His fingerprints were not found on the outside of the shutter. Why not ?

This is where it gets even more interesting imo.

As you say Peter, his prints should have been on the shutter in that case. They should have been seen in the opening position from the outside. But according to the Dispatches experts, the few prints we did see with the dragon's blood, revealed that someone had pushed the shutter up from the inside only. So another confirmation from them that Gerry did not do as Kate has said. The sceptics might say that what they did find was unidentifiable and could therefore have been Gerry's, but all of those criminal experts agreed, that what we saw was someone trying to open it from the inside only.


It get even more interesting. Not only did GM go outside and fiddle with the shutters, according to these statements so did Diane Webster and Kate McCann. So why are their fingerprints not on the outside of these shutters??




D Websters statement 10th May.....................

However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed.


And in her rogatory statement (Date of Interview: 11.04.08)
she says this............

4078 "It’s all, you know, even at that early stage there wasn’t a lot more that you were able to say. Did you check the blind at Kate’s apartment on the window that obviously the relevant window? Did you go out and check the blind?"
Reply "Oh the shutter?"
4078 "Yeah, sorry."
Reply "Yeah I mean I can remember going out there and in fact there was me and somebody else, I don’t know who else there was, to see if it could be raised from, from outside, I didn’t spend too long err trying it."
4078 "And were you able to?"
Reply "I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted
. But everybody was in such a panic really."

Reply "I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted. But everybody was in such a panic really."



And Rachael Oldfieds statement............

Rachael Oldfields statement


Reply "Erm but I mean I remember kind of standing near the window with Kate and Fiona, erm so but I mean I don’t remember the specifics of anyone actually saying to me that, I think it was just sort of a general, Kate and Fi were sort of milling around outside the apartment, outside her and Kate’s apartment and cos I think at, either at that point or perhaps it was later in the night, erm you know Kate had tried to see whether you could lift the shutters from the outside, erm but which you could and they would stay up, erm so I think, I don’t think anyone told me specifically that the windows were open and the shutters were up, it was just erm you know kind of listening to conversations and seeing Kate and Fiona, erm sort of outside the apartment".
1578 "Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the window open"?
Reply "Yes".
1578 "When was that"?
Reply "When, when Fi and Kate were outside, erm you know
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 10:40

So Diane Webster is saying she tried the shutter and it became all twisted?? Broken/jemmied shutters story?


4078 "And were you able to?"
Reply "I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted
. But everybody was in such a panic really."
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 11:25

I have checked to see if there is a copy of the Jill Renwick broadcast on GMTV, but couldn't find one. All I can find is a short quote on McCannfiles, but I remember listening to her that morning and she said a whole lot more than this one quote;


[Jill Renwick family friend] speaking on GMTV

JR: ..."the shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her".

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by zodiac on 16.06.11 11:30

TC, GM's sister quite clearly announces to the world on the 4th May 2007 via this television interview on the 4th May 2007 that:

The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jammied open..or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6620000/newsid_6625200/6625205.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1


Hmm is it possible that they deliberately told family and friends the shutters were jemmied, broken, tampered with because they needed their family and friends to believe that it was an abduction. Were the friends and relatives used to divert attention away from the McC's and used to get the abduction story out via the press and media. Obfuscation!


McCann family reverse story over break-in evidence '


McCann family reverse story over break-in 'evidence'

By Shane Hickey
Thursday October 25 2007
THE spokesman for the family of Madeleine McCann has reversed a statement made in the early days of the search for the missing child.

Speaking to RTE's 'Prime Time', Clarence Mitchell said she could "easily" have been kidnapped by an abductor who did not leave the trail of a break-in.

However, in the early part of the hunt, friends and family members told journalists that the shutter on the apartment where the McCanns were staying had been broken.

Mr Mitchell made his comments when questioned by a 'Prime Time' team in a report on the disappearance to be screened tomorrow. "There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell.

"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."

Of the criticism that the McCanns left their children by themselves on four evenings while they went for dinner, Mr Mitchell said there was a cultural difference between Britain and Portugal.

"It is a British approach to get your children washed, bathed and in bed early in the evening if you can so you can have something of the evening to yourself. That is the British way of doing things. It doesn't mean it's wrong. It doesn't mean it's right," he said.

"Nobody feels more guilty than Gerry and Kate over the decision they took jointly to leave their children in that position that night. And they will never forgive themselves. They've said this often.

"Nobody feels more guilty than they that Madeleine was alone when she was taken. However, they felt they had a perfectly proper system of checking (her in place)."

- Shane Hickey
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 11:38

Susan Healy
On 23 October 2007, Spanish TV aired an interview with Susan Healy, Kate's mother.
She said: "Gerry phoned me and said, 'There's been a disaster. It's a disaster'. I thought there had been a car accident. He was hysterical. It took me a while to realise. He just said 'Madeleine has been abducted from her bed'."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html


Philomena McCann
Note: Philomena says she has spoken to Gerry ''several times'' and she is still recounting the 'abductor through the window' scenario, when she says ''It is obvious that someone, with malicious intent, went through that window.''

]http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Mini Slueth on 16.06.11 11:40

So Kate thinks people are suspicious of her because of how she looks.................... nothing at all to do with this charade they have put on.

The British way of doing things.........Well they dont speak for me...Having a routine for your children, having some "Adult" time in the evenings DOES NOT mean leaving your children alone to fend for themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Do they only feel guilty that they werent there when she was "abducted"????? What a bloody stupid thing to say!!!!!!

I have no idea why these two havent been prosecuted before. It beggars belief!!!!!!

Having a good routine in place for the children....well, i agree with that, we have a good routine in place here.....BUT NEVER NEVER EVER leave our children alone to fend for themselves!!!!!!.........................When did this ever become acceptable in ANY country??

I am LIVID with this pair of idiots!!!

They put themselves befor etheir children on holiday and have been doing it ever since.............................I dont think they are capable of thinking of anyone other than themselves.
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Mini Slueth on 16.06.11 11:41

Stella wrote:


Philomena McCann
Note: Philomena says she has spoken to Gerry ''several times'' and she is still recounting the 'abductor through the window' scenario, when she says ''It is obvious that someone, with malicious intent, went through that window.''

]http://www.mccannfiles.com/id31.html


Yes, it was probably Gerry!!
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Mini Slueth on 16.06.11 11:42



These pair of numbskulls make me so bloody angry
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 11:47

there was a video of Phil McCann actually saying the windows were "Jimmied" as she called it. I have searched for it but can't find it. It was also posted on this site a long while ago, but can't find that either. I think it has been removed.



As for Clarence Mitchell saying this, how could anyone get through that window, without tampering with the shutter? And leave no fingerprints.

"There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell.

"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."




GM says in this interview that "it's possible" they came through the window. Bit of a change from the stories that originally were printed that the abductor definitely got in through the window. Anyway we know the gap was too small to get a sleeping child through in the position described, and the lichen on the windowsill was not disturbed. Neither was the bed under the window. No footprints etc.




MORGAN: No, actual evidence. There's nothing they could find to say this is unequivocally how this person came in?

G. MCCANN: No. I mean, it's possible they came through the window. They could have come through the patio doors, although that was in sight of where we were dining. So I think that's probably less likely. For all we know, they could have had a key, you know, lots of people stayed in that apartment over years to the front door --
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 12:11

Stella wrote:
Me wrote:So am i correct in assuming we've dealt with all issues on rebuttal question 1 apart from this one:

MMRG quote: they ’phoned relatives that night saying: ‘An abductor broke in and took Madeleine’

Actually: After the initial unsuccessful search and thinking it wasn’t possible for Madeleine to go out on her own or have opened the bedroom shutters and window, Gerry told everybody (including his sister) Madeleine was abducted. His sister said in a newspaper interview: "They think someone must have come by the window and gone out the door with her.


So do we have proof they searched and do we have proof that their immiedate response was abduction? Let's go to work!

Just thinking when we've cleared all the points for one question we should (or perhaps a mod) pull alll the replies together in one coherent post which addresses each rebuttal fact accoridngly. Do we agree?

We need to do something to streamline the replies, so that they are fairly short and straight to the point imo. But I would like to nominate you Me, I think you're the best man for the job. You are very good with words.

But if you have your hands full, please say so and we will have to think about this. I'm not a w.p.m sort of person, if you know what I mean and to much typing tyres me out these days. Give me a report with a set of figures in and I'm happy as Larry.

As for proof re the claims of abduction, I will try to find Jill Renwick's TV report on GMTV, from the morning of the 4th. 3 million viewers is enough proof in my eyes.

No problem, i will collate and source where possible, so if i could ask anyone posting to provide sources that would be most useful.

Is this the Renwick GMTV interview you refer to:

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that the distraught parents were certain that Madeline had been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."

She said the parents went out about 8pm, checked on the children at 9pm and then when they "went back in at 10pm she was gone".

Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."

Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said the McCanns, who had been holidaying with three other British families, had felt let down by police in Portugal. "I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own. They just don't know where to turn."

However, the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 12:35

Do we have any firm evidence that the Mccann;s took part in the initial searches or not, as the case may be?

Just wondered so we can address that issue in the rebuttal point.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 13:21

albym wrote:... when he went to check on his own child !! (at '5B' in the upper picture).



While both Tanner and O'Brien might have zero peripheral vision, would Oldfield have failed to see a gaping black hole in the wall (at location '1' in the lower picture) right next to his own child's bedroom window??
I think not, but his statements make no mention of his own check. All we have is his overarching response of 'nothing suspicious was seen' at any time during his holiday.

Alby

What time was Oldfield's check and where is it in his statement?

Secondly Did Jane tanner on her check definitely walk past the window after seeing the "abductor"?

Again where is this in the file?

I have begun preparing a consolidated repsonse from all the posts so far to this first rebuttal question and this information would be most helpful.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 14:36

Me wrote:
Is this the Renwick GMTV interview you refer to:

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that the distraught parents were certain that Madeline had been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."

She said the parents went out about 8pm, checked on the children at 9pm and then when they "went back in at 10pm she was gone".

Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."

Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said the McCanns, who had been holidaying with three other British families, had felt let down by police in Portugal. "I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own. They just don't know where to turn."

However, the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports.

Yes, that's about as much of it as I could find, but the original conversation as aired live on GMTV that morning was longer I'm sure. But I think the original interview must have been pulled as it is nowhere to be found now.
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 14:40

Me wrote:Do we have any firm evidence that the Mccann;s took part in the initial searches or not, as the case may be?

Just wondered so we can address that issue in the rebuttal point.

I've not seen anything from anyone independent to verify that they did.

If anyone else knows of something, please let us know.
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 14:52

Stella wrote:
Me wrote:
Is this the Renwick GMTV interview you refer to:

Jill Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that the distraught parents were certain that Madeline had been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."

She said the parents went out about 8pm, checked on the children at 9pm and then when they "went back in at 10pm she was gone".

Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."

"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."

Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said the McCanns, who had been holidaying with three other British families, had felt let down by police in Portugal. "I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own. They just don't know where to turn."

However, the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill said the police had been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police and airports.

Yes, that's about as much of it as I could find, but the original conversation as aired live on GMTV that morning was longer I'm sure. But I think the original interview must have been pulled as it is nowhere to be found now.

The interesting thing about it i've spotted which i'm working on in this collated response is that this statement by Renwick was given on GMTV at 07.45 am on the 4th May 2007 that's several hours BEFORE the McCann's gave their poilce statements (11.15 am for Gerry & 14.20 for kate).

So clearly that usurps a key part of the rebuttal argument. The story was the shutters were jemmied open at 07:45 on GMTV (and initially relayed to Renwick at 07.00 apparently) but "raised" in the Gerry's first police statement which was given 2-3 hours AFTER that GMTV interview and 5-6 hours AFTER Kate's.

Similarly i have seen the report with the comments of John Hill (Ocean Club Manager) saying:

Mr Hill said that despite the report by a family friend that the shutters to the couple's apartment were broken, there was no sign that anyone had forced their way in while the McCanns ate at the tapas restaurant 200 yards away.

He said: "We are hoping that Madeleine is found as soon as possible and safe and well. Everybody here is just wishing that she is found as soon as possible."

That report can be seen here: http://www.24dash.com/news/Communities/2007-05-04-Holidaymakers-join-Algarve-hunt-for-missing-three-year-old

and is dated:

Published by webmaster for 24dash.com in Communities
Friday 4th May 2007 - 12:18pm

Which is about the same time give or take an hour as to when Gerry gave his first statement where he said the shutter was "raised" but 1-2 hours BEFORE Kate made her statement at 14.20.

Clearly the article has had to be written before it was posted so i would suggest at this stage that John Hill's statement was actually made to the press prior to the Gerry's first interview and certainly well before Kate's.

Which again blows a hole in one of the assumptions that the rebuttal document makes:

Kate's statement was made before the PJ or the manager of the complex said there was no sign of a forced entry. Her statement has been unchanged throughout.

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 14:56

Sorry just missed a conclusion off.

Given the timelines it is my belief that the story was indeed "jemmied" open but at some point after 07.00 am (after telling Renwick) and 11.20am (giving the statement) the McCann's became aware of this quoteand report from John Hill and modified their story to say it was "raised".

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 15:09

Me wrote:

What time was Oldfield's check and where is it in his statement?


From Matt's roggie:

First check:

00.16.41 4078 "Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did that listening check outside Madeleine's room?"
Reply "Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back round".

Second check:

while everybody else was still eating, and I went up the second check with Russell, so he's a pretty slow eater, so it may well have been sort of closer to sort of twenty past, twenty-five past nine, sometime round there before we did the next check".
00.23.05 4078 "Okay".
Reply "So I went to check on G***e and I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said do you want us to go and check on, do you want me to go and check on your kids and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and it may or it may not have been different. But, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there. And there was me and Russell as well, so, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it. Also, having somebody else there with me, it sort of felt sort of more, more sort of natural and normal. So we went out and we debated about whether we'd go in first or go in later, but Russell wanted to get back because E**e had been a little bit unsettled and so we went back first and he went in and I went in to check on G***e and actually went in through the door, unlocked the door, looked in, into her room, all fine, came back out, shut the door, went over to his apartment and he said that E**e had been sick so he was staying back with her. So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Me on 16.06.11 15:35

Stella wrote:
Me wrote:

What time was Oldfield's check and where is it in his statement?


From Matt's roggie:

First check:

00.16.41 4078 "Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did that listening check outside Madeleine's room?"
Reply "Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back round".

Second check:

while everybody else was still eating, and I went up the second check with Russell, so he's a pretty slow eater, so it may well have been sort of closer to sort of twenty past, twenty-five past nine, sometime round there before we did the next check".
00.23.05 4078 "Okay".
Reply "So I went to check on G***e and I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said do you want us to go and check on, do you want me to go and check on your kids and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and it may or it may not have been different. But, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there. And there was me and Russell as well, so, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it. Also, having somebody else there with me, it sort of felt sort of more, more sort of natural and normal. So we went out and we debated about whether we'd go in first or go in later, but Russell wanted to get back because E**e had been a little bit unsettled and so we went back first and he went in and I went in to check on G***e and actually went in through the door, unlocked the door, looked in, into her room, all fine, came back out, shut the door, went over to his apartment and he said that E**e had been sick so he was staying back with her. So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

Thanks for this. So what i'm now not sure of, which is also important, is:

1) What apartment number did they go into first and did they go in through the front door?
2) how did they get to that apartment, round the back through the car park?
3) How did they get out of that apartment (door or patio) and most importantly how did they then get into 5A. the statement infers he went OUT of the patio door after checking but how did he get into the apartment?

Will really help for the stuff i'm pulling together.

Me

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Re: The 50 Facts Rebuttal

Post by Guest on 16.06.11 15:41

Me wrote:
Secondly Did Jane tanner on her check definitely walk past the window after seeing the "abductor"?


Good grief, that woman can talk for England.

Anyway, I eventually found the two important bits. When she did her check and why she didn't notice the shutter.


00.16.41 4078 "Okay. So what sort of time was it when you did that listening check outside Madeleine's room?"
Reply "Well this would have been, I'd have set off about five to nine or just before nine, and so that round trip would have taken me three or four minutes maybe, because on this occasion I didn't go into our apartment, so it was just walk up, sort of ten or twenty seconds outside the two shutters and then back round".

Apologies: Thanks to Alby for pointing this out. The above section is from Matt Oldfields statement, not Jane Tanner's


This is Jane's reply:
4078 "Right."
Reply "And if it's just no, I don't think there's any lighting down this bit, there's actually a roof, if I remember rightly, again our bit there's a roof sort of the floor above actually comes out like that so it's actually quite dark as well."
4078 "Right."
Reply "In that bit there so..."
4078 "So had the, had the shutter been disturbed? You probably wouldn't have noticed..."
Reply "I wouldn't have noticed, no."
4078 "Unless you'd specifically think (inaudible)."
10.03 Reply "If I'd specifically gone to listen."
4078 "Yeah."
Reply "I would've seen it but because Gerry had just checked I didn't, there was no, to go in specifically."
4078 "Okay, thank you, that's clarified that for me at least anyway."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
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