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Leaving the kids

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Leaving the kids

Post by jacquidawn on 11.06.11 20:50

As soon as I heard they left their children I was horrified.

I asked my friends if they would have done and they all said no.

I then asked what they would have done if their partners had said it was okay, would they have gone along with it then, they all said No! and the partner would have been in big trouble.

What does that say about the McCanns, what are the chances of finding two parents who think it a great idea (also have to consider that other members of the group did as well). Is that unique to the group? If so what does that say about the group? Also if one of them is not happy with it, were they forced to agree and does that mean we are looking at a very complex relationship where one of them is very controlling?

Would like to know everyone elses thoughts, thank you

Can someone also tell me how many couples in the group had children which were left. I have read some of the police statements, but not all. Am a bit new to all the facts. Thank you

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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by niknaks08 on 11.06.11 22:40

hey jacqui , there is no way in a million years any of my family or myself would leave our kids either , any normal person in this day and age just wouldnt do it and theres a hundred and 1 reasons why ,just seems the mccann an co didnt concider just 1 of these reasons o yes sorry they did they left the door open (not 100% why but if it was for a fire safety id like to know how they expected the twins to get themselves out of there travel cots ??
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by niknaks08 on 11.06.11 22:41

sorry by open i ment unlocked :)
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by Guest on 12.06.11 8:25

Hi Jacuqidawn

I think the story of all the children being left alone (4 couples/8 children) is made up to facilitate the abduction scenario. Someone was missing from the tapas-table every night. On the 3rd, a couple of people were coming and going. This could mean that all of the children could have been very safely being looked after by one adult, in one of the apartments, every night. Read the Payne's statement. When the alarm was raised, David went to search, Fiona went to comfort Kate and Dianne stayed at the table. What does that tell you? They had 2 children allegedly all alone in their apartment. But not one of them thought to rush back to make sure they were still there? Could it be that they knew they were with an adult the entire night ???
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Cover stories

Post by Guest on 12.06.11 9:15

Welcome Jacquidawn. I too think that the regular check of all the apartments was simply made up to explain how Madeleine was no longer there and also that, whatever befell her (it could have been an accident) had happened at least the day before, maybe earlier. So the group were then stuck with the story of how they took it in turns to look in on the children. One of the most unbelievable elements of it for me is that the Tanner / O'Brien couple claim to have found that their child had been sick. What did they do? Cleaned her up and then went on their merry way without a thought that it might happen again and she might choke to death. Then there's also Kate's comment that when she made the supposed last check at around 10 o'clock, she knew that something was wrong because "the (bedroom) door was not as we left it". That can only mean that she knew that none of her friends had been there since she and Gerry left together to go to the restaurant as she couldn't have known how they had left the door; open, closed or ajar. You will find that the more you delve into this case, the more intriguing it gets.
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by jacquidawn on 12.06.11 13:55

Marian wrote: One of the most unbelievable elements of it for me is that the Tanner / O'Brien couple claim to have found that their child had been sick. What did they do? Cleaned her up and then went on their merry way without a thought that it might happen again and she might choke to death.

This is the bit I find strange aswell. Any of those children might have woken up and needed help from being sick, needing the toilet (Am taking it that Maddie was clean at night?) nightmares, drink of water, hearing strange noises, wanting a hug. These are some of the reasons my own children wake up.

Also, how did they get them all to go to sleep at the same time. My children at those ages would not go to sleep, I think it is the fact that on holiday you share a room, you are on holiday and they are basically hyper. I would be lucky to get mine asleep for 9pm, but they have still been awake at 11.30pm.

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A bad scenario - but one which covers up an even worse scenario?

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.06.11 14:49

jacquidawn wrote:As soon as I heard they left their children I was horrified.

I asked my friends if they would have done and they all said no.

I then asked what they would have done if their partners had said it was okay, would they have gone along with it then, they all said No! and the partner would have been in big trouble...Would like to know everyone elses thoughts, thank you...

Can someone also tell me how many couples in the group had children which were left...
Hallo jacquidawn and welcome.

My response is by way of a supplement really to Stella's post up the thread. Stella is one of the most knowledgeable resaerchers on the case.

It is hard to say this to someone new to the case. but to put it a slightly different way from Stella, the story told by the McCanns and their friends to the police and media - bad though it is [leaving very young children on their own night after night] may be to cover up something even worse that happened, or that they were all involved in.

Thus to put this even more clearly: Madeleine may have died under circumstances that we do not know about (as the Portuguese detective has said in his book: 'The Truth About A Lie'. It may be that the McCanns and their friends then set about concocting a hoax story, namely that Madeleine had been abducted, to hide the real truth.

[If there is anyone from Carter-Ruck looking in (or if bonnybraes is brave enough to snatch one more brief glimpse at this forum), I should say for the record that I am only saying that this MAY have happened, just as the McCanns are saying through their chosen, paid spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, that the McCanns' claim that Madeleine was abducted is ONLY a 'hypothesis', and 'assumption'].

Dealing with your question about other couples, there were four couples in the group, ALL left the young children on their own (or this is what they say), but Dr David Payne and wife claimed that they had a 'baby monitor' in the room which would alert them if their children started crying.

The best hoaxes have us all looking at the wrong place or the wrong time, or preferably both, in the style of magicians and illusionists.

In this case, it seems - from the cadaver dog alerts to the scent of a corpse at 10 separate locations connected with the McCanns in Praia da Luz - that the 'scene of the crime', so to speak, was indeed the McCanns' apartment, G5A.

But if this is a clever hoax, we may be looking at entirely the wrong time [10pm on Thusrday 3 May 2007] for when any incident (whatever it was) actually happened.
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by jacquidawn on 12.06.11 20:42

Do you think that the total lack of visible grief means that the 'something' may have been pre-planned. This is another one of those things that I just don't understand. None of this conforms to my idea of how parents are supposed to behave towards their children, before or after the event. This is why I am here. I just don't get it. What sort of people are we dealing with here?

What could this 'event' be.

Being IVF, does this have any bearing on it?

Thank you for the welcome to all those who have answered my questions. Should have got on board a long time ago.

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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by pennylane on 12.06.11 21:32

jacquidawn wrote:Do you think that the total lack of visible grief means that the 'something' may have been pre-planned. This is another one of those things that I just don't understand. None of this conforms to my idea of how parents are supposed to behave towards their children, before or after the event. This is why I am here. I just don't get it. What sort of people are we dealing with here?

What could this 'event' be.

Being IVF, does this have any bearing on it?

Thank you for the welcome to all those who have answered my questions. Should have got on board a long time ago.

I don't believe anything was preplanned. The abduction façade was rapidly and poorly concocted, and once underway did not go smoothly at all. This is why they have tried to re-write history over and over again to this day. Grief for Maddie's demise was an emotion that got immediately drowned out and overtaken by fear.... fear of losing everything... fear of having the twins taken away...... fear of going to prison...... .... fear of saying the wrong thing....... fear of their nosedive into the abyss. This is why they always appear so numb, and why they repeat their mantra, word for word, without diversifying or altering the script. They must concentrate, and watch each other... their hands are held tightly ready to squeeze the other's if one of them slips up.

Normal emotions may be an impossibility under such circumstances.

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Pre-planned, or not pre-planned, that is the question

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.06.11 22:12

pennylane wrote:
jacquidawn wrote:Do you think that the total lack of visible grief means that the 'something' may have been pre-planned. SNIPPED... What could this 'event' be?
MORE SNIPPED
I don't believe anything was preplanned. The abduction façade was rapidly and poorly concocted, and once under way did not go smoothly at all. This is why they have tried to re-write history over and over again to this day. Grief for Maddie's demise was an emotion that got immediately drowned out and overtaken by fear...fear of losing everything...fear of having the twins taken away...fear of going to prison...fear of saying the wrong thing...fear of their nosedive into the abyss. This is why they always appear so numb, and why they repeat their mantra, word for word, without diversifying or altering the script. They must concentrate, and watch each other...their hands are held tightly ready to squeeze the other's if one of them slips up.

Normal emotions may be an impossibility under such circumstances.
There are certainly those who make the case for pre-planning, and they have some persuasive arguments. But I agree essentially with the above analysis, which if I may so say is very well and concisely put. One of the reasons I do not hold to the 'preplanned' theory is because I do accept that the cadaver dogs' alerts were genuine alerts to a corpse - and unfortunately it seems the only corpse that could be is that of Madeleine McCann. If this really had been 'pre-planned', would they have deliberately killed Madeleine in their very own apartment? I don't think so.
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by pennylane on 13.06.11 16:49

Tony Bennett wrote:
pennylane wrote:
jacquidawn wrote:Do you think that the total lack of visible grief means that the 'something' may have been pre-planned. SNIPPED... What could this 'event' be?
MORE SNIPPED
I don't believe anything was preplanned. The abduction façade was rapidly and poorly concocted, and once under way did not go smoothly at all. This is why they have tried to re-write history over and over again to this day. Grief for Maddie's demise was an emotion that got immediately drowned out and overtaken by fear...fear of losing everything...fear of having the twins taken away...fear of going to prison...fear of saying the wrong thing...fear of their nosedive into the abyss. This is why they always appear so numb, and why they repeat their mantra, word for word, without diversifying or altering the script. They must concentrate, and watch each other...their hands are held tightly ready to squeeze the other's if one of them slips up.

Normal emotions may be an impossibility under such circumstances.
There are certainly those who make the case for pre-planning, and they have some persuasive arguments. But I agree essentially with the above analysis, which if I may so say is very well and concisely put. One of the reasons I do not hold to the 'preplanned' theory is because I do accept that the cadaver dogs' alerts were genuine alerts to a corpse - and unfortunately it seems the only corpse that could be is that of Madeleine McCann. If this really had been 'pre-planned', would they have deliberately killed Madeleine in their very own apartment? I don't think so.

Hi Tony

Exacto!

Ah yes.... the blood and cadaver dogs.... they just won't go away will they, and no matter how hard the McCanns try to whoosh them into oblivion, and rewrite history, their story still reeks to high heaven.... just like their Renault Scenic hire car.

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Forward planning?

Post by Guest on 13.06.11 16:58

Another worrying point for me is the setting up of the website and the limited company with only the barest minimum of time needed to be able to do these things. To me this suggests that some of the ground work had already been done beforehand but that is just a personal observation which I am unable to prove.
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by Upsy Daisy on 14.06.11 10:28

I agree with Tony Bennett. It HAD to have happened earlier and then staged thereafter. I just don't for one minute believe that if she died accidentally they managed to stage that and cover it up within a half an hour window of the last supposed check. That throws open the question of who was seen carrying a child that was spotted by the Smiths. Was she indeed taken away in the blue tennis bag, if so, that theory is debunked there and then.

As far as leaving kids alone...absolutey no way, no way, no waaay. My daughter is 17 months old, a little younger than the twins would have been then. I find it an abhorrent idea. I just feel that, if the leaving -the-kids theory is true and not a red herring, that Kate has some issue with being emotionally/maternally connected to her children. Sorry but a mother who is emotionally connected to her child just would NOT behave in this manner. There has to be a reason.
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by jd on 30.07.11 3:23

Stella wrote:Hi Jacuqidawn

I think the story of all the children being left alone (4 couples/8 children) is made up to facilitate the abduction scenario. Someone was missing from the tapas-table every night. On the 3rd, a couple of people were coming and going. This could mean that all of the children could have been very safely being looked after by one adult, in one of the apartments, every night. Read the Payne's statement. When the alarm was raised, David went to search, Fiona went to comfort Kate and Dianne stayed at the table. What does that tell you? They had 2 children allegedly all alone in their apartment. But not one of them thought to rush back to make sure they were still there? Could it be that they knew they were with an adult the entire night ???

Been reading through some of the previous threads and in this one I think jacuqidawn picks up on a really good point here, which hadn't occurred to me before. This makes absolute sense on the theory that the other 7 kids were together in another apartment. First thing the other parents would do is check their kids but they haven't in this case and it doesn't seem to have crossed their minds to do so (which is alarming in itself), together with KM going back to the Tapas leaving the twins in serious grave danger on their own to be abducted (assuming they were ever in their apartment that night), and what has just occurred to me now is that there is reports of only one baby monitor on the restaurant table. You would only need one if all the kids were in one room!

If the kids were in their own apartments then the other couples would have a baby monitor each surely, not just one couple

As Tony rightly says "The best hoaxes have us all looking at the wrong place or the wrong time....But if this is a clever hoax, we may be looking at entirely the wrong time [10pm on Thusrday 3 May 2007] for when any incident (whatever it was) actually happened."......spot on!

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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by lj on 30.07.11 5:12

The fact that the twins were left alone again, and no other parent checked their own children in panic points towards preplanning, although they all might have thought Madeleine ran off (again).

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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by Gillyspot on 30.07.11 9:17

pennylane wrote:
Ah yes.... the blood and cadaver dogs.... they just won't go away will they, and no matter how hard the McCanns try to whoosh them into oblivion, and rewrite history, their story still reeks to high heaven.... just like their Renault Scenic hire car.

Kate mentions them in her book but shows disbelief because if the abductor had killed and taken Madeleine it must have only taken a few minutes before leaving the apartment and the dogs wouldn't have been able to pick up the scent. I think we have a different opinion (I do)
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by PeterMac on 30.07.11 10:26

Gillyspot wrote:[
Kate mentions them in her book but shows disbelief because if the abductor had killed and taken Madeleine it must have only taken a few minutes before leaving the apartment and the dogs wouldn't have been able to pick up the scent. I think we have a different opinion (I do)
And that relies purely on Gerry's statement about having looked down at the sleeping Madeleine and thinking how lucky he was ....
In my view over-egging the pudding.
Protesting too much.
Too much detail.
Desperately trying to flesh out the story.
Supplying corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.

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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by jd on 30.07.11 12:17

lj wrote:The fact that the twins were left alone again, and no other parent checked their own children in panic points towards preplanning, although they all might have thought Madeleine ran off (again).

They didn't though. KM thought immediately Maddie had been abducted screaming 'they've taken her" and other screams to this effect. Even highlighted this on last sundays Australian programme. Nobody in the group thought Maddie had ran off, they all thought she was taken immediately. The only people who thought she might have ran off were the employees of the resort and others not part of the group, but not the group themselves!

I am absolutely convinced now that all the kids were in one room, this is the only thing that makes sense. And there had to be 7 and not 8 being looked after with the adult that was missing every night from the Tapas. Maddie was either left on her own after May 1st os she was never there on May 3rd
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by EJW on 06.04.12 20:01

Good evening all, I have just found this thread after looking back through the "debating theories" section. One thing has made me wonder, if all the children were actually being looked after in one room each evening (which I firmly believe) why would the group have requested apartments close together and requested the table at the tapas restaurant each night because they were "leaving their children" unattended and making repeated checks at "regular" intervals.

KM was apparently horrified when she realised that the OC staff book which described their intentions of leaving their children unattended was available for all to see at the the OC reception. I believe this was also mentioned in the book? (correct me if i'm wrong) Has their ever been any sight of the staff book which highlights this information or confirmation that the request was made for seating at the tapas because the children were being left? Or is it just the Mcann word for it?
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Re: Leaving the kids

Post by worriedmum on 06.04.12 22:30

PeterMac wrote:
Gillyspot wrote:[
Kate mentions them in her book but shows disbelief because if the abductor had killed and taken Madeleine it must have only taken a few minutes before leaving the apartment and the dogs wouldn't have been able to pick up the scent. I think we have a different opinion (I do)
And that relies purely on Gerry's statement about having looked down at the sleeping Madeleine and thinking how lucky he was ....
In my view over-egging the pudding.
Protesting too much.
Too much detail.
Desperately trying to flesh out the story.
Supplying corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.


PeterMac, was there any light to see by?
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