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The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

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The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Garth on 07.06.11 19:31

 Atilliator Yesterday at 9:36 pm

 

I am told that a stiff will emit gases from post-mortem corruption after about 2 hours. This means that Madeleine's dead body must have been in that apartment for at least that amount of time. It will also mean that Cuddle Cat was adorning her body at least two hours after she died - possibly at the second apartment or in the car.


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So, given some of us realise that cadaverine gives off different gases at different stages of decompostion (that was the reason the experiment was conducted for accuracy as explained on a previous thread), we should all have the mental capacity to also understand (as stated above by Atilliator) that the cadaver would take at least 2 hours before it was detectable by the dogs.
 
This now negates the overwhelming idea on here that the conspiracy was conjured up in order to alleviate the McCanns of any blame for negligence and resultant accident in their absence and thus avoid prison and possibly the loss of the twins Rolling Eyes
 
So what other 'wacky' ideas can we come up with that would give them cause to go to the lengths they did?
 
Over to the conspiraloons ,  conspiracytheorists, armchair detectives, wise posters on this forum?


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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 07.06.11 21:50

I don't need to conjure up any other theories Garth .... as I've told you before - dead bodies do not operate to a time schedule. Whilst laboratory testing, in controlled conditions may not register the chemically measurable presence of cadaverine before a minimum 2 hours, I am categorically telling you, as someone who spends 8 hours a day around corpses, that some bodies emit a death smell that even humans can detect very soon after death.

It also strikes me that comparing scent - something that cannot be measured or tested - to chemical presence is somewhat nonsensical. Scientifically we have no idea whether cadaverine can be smelt by dogs long before it's chemical presence is at testable levels i don\'t know

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by HotlipsHealy on 07.06.11 22:01

@LittleMissMolly wrote:I don't need to conjure up any other theories Garth .... as I've told you before - dead bodies do not operate to a time schedule. Whilst laboratory testing, in controlled conditions may not register the chemically measurable presence of cadaverine before a minimum 2 hours, I am categorically telling you, as someone who spends 8 hours a day around corpses, that some bodies emit a death smell that even humans can detect very soon after death.

It also strikes me that comparing scent - something that cannot be measured or tested - to chemical presence is somewhat nonsensical. Scientifically we have no idea whether cadaverine can be smelt by dogs long before it's chemical presence is at testable levels i don\'t know

Last year I read an article about a cat in a care home that went to sit on a persons bed before it died, so does that mean cadaver odour could even be emitted before death?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 07.06.11 22:09

@HotlipsHealy wrote:
@LittleMissMolly wrote:I don't need to conjure up any other theories Garth .... as I've told you before - dead bodies do not operate to a time schedule. Whilst laboratory testing, in controlled conditions may not register the chemically measurable presence of cadaverine before a minimum 2 hours, I am categorically telling you, as someone who spends 8 hours a day around corpses, that some bodies emit a death smell that even humans can detect very soon after death.

It also strikes me that comparing scent - something that cannot be measured or tested - to chemical presence is somewhat nonsensical. Scientifically we have no idea whether cadaverine can be smelt by dogs long before it's chemical presence is at testable levels i don\'t know

Last year I read an article about a cat in a care home that went to sit on a persons bed before it died, so does that mean cadaver odour could even be emitted before death?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html


I did read an article a few years ago, long before this case, that when a person is dying, and has been ill for a long time, various parts of the body stop functioning or shut down, ie. the liver, kidneys etc - in other words parts of the body start to fail one by one, and give off a certain odour, a sort of smell of death.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 07.06.11 22:28

That is true ... particularly in cancer patients and especially those with liver, stomach and pancreatic cancers. I can often tell what a person has died of long before I see the family or paperwork, just from the smell.

The truth is that what animals can sense is beyond our comprehension ... it can't be measured in any real terms and we can never experience it or understand something which is so completely outside our own experiences.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Me on 07.06.11 23:00

@Garth wrote:Over to the conspiraloons , conspiracytheorists, armchair detectives, wise posters on this forum?

Here's some nuggets of wisdom from one of the " conspiraloons , conspiracytheorists, armchair detectives, wise posters on this forum" for you Garth:

conspiraloons , conspiracytheorists, armchair detectives, wise posters on this forum wrote:On the contrary, Mr Grimes would want to help convict killers of a child, which is what the PJ invited him in for wasnt it!

Not forgetting the money he would earn!


Another loony one for you:

conspiraloons , conspiracytheorists, armchair detectives, wise posters on this forum wrote:If you read my post carefully Candy, all Im saying is that Martin Grimes wanted a result. He would have been paid a lot of money for those dogs. That, coupled with the fact that he may be proving the guilt of the parents into the death of their daughter would be enough to unconciously or conciously signal the dogs.................as can quite clearly be seen in the car footage.

And another one:


conspiraloons , conspiracytheorists, armchair detectives, wise posters on this forum wrote:Candy

The eyes of the world was on this case. The PJ believed strongly that the McCanns concealed the death of a little girl.

How much more motivating would you need? That doesnt mean to say MG is corrupt at all.

And that's only from one thread!

What a loon eh?

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by The Shelfstacker on 07.06.11 23:22

Garth. You mug. Grow up or go away. You're being silly. Again.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Atilliator on 08.06.11 1:14

Don't think it is as stupid as it seems.

Speed the day when the McCs come to trial; but, thanks to their book deal, if they are prudent and get Bill Gross to look after their money for them, they will be able to afford the best legal team Portugal can produce. One of the weak points in their case is the dogs. And their lawyers will tackle this problem by attacking the integrity of the dog handler. Like Garth, they will say that Mr Grime makes a living from his dogs, and he used this case to increase his dogs's hireability. They will accuse him of leading Eddie to the right apartment, and the right car.

Objectively speaking, all the smell of cadaverine in apartment 5A proves is that there was a dead body there sometime in the past. However, there are two other pieces of evidence: blood, and the disappearance of a child. This means that the child was injured fatally at the window where the blood was, and either died there, or returned to that area after she died.

Goncalo Amaral suggested to KM that Madeleine had had an accident, and that if she confessed to this, she could possibly get a two year stretch. This could have been a stalking horse. I get the impression from Amaral's book that he knows more than he is letting on. Judging by the position of the blood traces on the walls, I would say that a kid falling off the back of the sofa is not what happened. Sorry to appear like an armchair - if not a sofa - detective; but I think I know what Amaral is not saying in his book. And I agree with him.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by ROSA on 08.06.11 1:24

Goncalo hasn't revealed everything he knows yet it will be something to look forward to for us i don't think the McCanns will feel the same way for some reason
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Martin on 08.06.11 4:11

Likewise the Portugese police haven't revealed all that they have on the case which is one reason why the McCanns have been so desperate to find out what they know. And Kate's book is full of second guessing and 'innocent explanations'.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by ufercoffy on 08.06.11 8:15

@Atilliator wrote:Goncalo Amaral suggested to KM that Madeleine had had an accident, and that if she confessed to this, she could possibly get a two year stretch. This could have been a stalking horse. I get the impression from Amaral's book that he knows more than he is letting on. Judging by the position of the blood traces on the walls, I would say that a kid falling off the back of the sofa is not what happened. Sorry to appear like an armchair - if not a sofa - detective; but I think I know what Amaral is not saying in his book. And I agree with him.

Yes, Amaral does seem to think it's KM who needs to have the two year stretch. I find it impossible to grasp why she has not seen the inside of a courthouse yet. Why, oh why, is this criminal case being played out in libel courts?

A child is dead. angry

Hopefully Amaral will get KM inside a courthouse eventually and then she will be liable to spend much more than 2 years inside because of the other crimes she has committed since the death of Madeleine.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Zelina on 08.06.11 10:09

I also feel that the deal the PJ offered was bait to recover Madeleine's body, assuming the body is recoverable.
Then a forensic examination would have shown certain things - expected by the PJ - and the deal would have been withdrawn.

Either that or the PJ knew the body was not recoverable (cremated for instance) and the deal was genuine. Somehow I doubt this.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 08.06.11 10:32

The deal never existed - Portugal has no system of plea bargaining at any level and the PJ are unable to influence sentencing in any way at all.

The Portuguese people know this, the PJ know it, Portuguese lawyers know it - there is no way that a deal or anything like one was ever offered to Kate McCann ... it's just something that either she or Auntie Phil (who first mentioned it) made up.

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 10:39

@LittleMissMolly wrote:The deal never existed - Portugal has no system of plea bargaining at any level and the PJ are unable to influence sentencing in any way at all.

The Portuguese people know this, the PJ know it, Portuguese lawyers know it - there is no way that a deal or anything like one was ever offered to Kate McCann ... it's just something that either she or Auntie Phil (who first mentioned it) made up.


I seem to remember that KM's lawyer had to come out and say this, and said it had been a misunderstanding, or words to that effect.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 10:50

Yes, I remeber that too. Perhaps it was Kate's lawyer when faced with the evidence against her, tried to test the water with some kind of deal and when he was told in no uncertain terms that was never going to happen in Portugal, this was what was relayed to Kate and she told everyone she had been offered a deal.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 10:59

Here is the proof

[snipped][quote]

The McCanns' lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, told the Guardian claims by relatives that police had offered Mrs McCann a plea bargain if she admitted to accidentally killing her child were wrong. The claims were the result of "a misunderstanding" while she was being questioned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/sep/10/ukcrime.internationalcrime
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 11:01

Does Kate McCann say anything about this deal in the book - anyone know? In the interview with Piers Morgan, she said she was offered the deal indirectly.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 11:19

Just found it....... From Kate's book.......... Chapter 16............Fantasy Land


Then came the best bit. Carlos announced what the police had proposed. If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by LittleMissMolly on 08.06.11 12:09

I've just come across another claim in the book about police 'tactics'

Kate says : " Thursday 10 May, [....] Gerry and I, along with a couple of our friends, were called back to the police station in Portimão. [...] Gerry was there for thirteen hours. When he finally returned to the apartment he related how Matt had been almost hysterical during his interview. Gerry had heard him shouting and crying. Apparently, it had been put to Matt that he’d handed Madeleine out through the window to a third party. It was like something out of Life on Mars.

Yet no trace of any such intimation in the PJ files relating to MO's interview on that day


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap11


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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Zelina on 08.06.11 13:10

candyfloss wrote:Just found it....... From Kate's book.......... Chapter 16............Fantasy Land


Then came the best bit. Carlos announced what the police had proposed. If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide.
well this gets more and more interesting!
so if the possibility of a deal does not exist in the Portuguese judicial system, then this is a blatant lie.

Of course the way the above is written in the book can be interpreted in different ways, a proposition is not the same as a deal etc...
I would like to know what the PJ's version of events is. Does Amaral mention a deal in his book?

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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 13:23

@Zelina wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Just found it....... From Kate's book.......... Chapter 16............Fantasy Land


Then came the best bit. Carlos announced what the police had proposed. If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide.
well this gets more and more interesting!
so if the possibility of a deal does not exist in the Portuguese judicial system, then this is a blatant lie.

Of course the way the above is written in the book can be interpreted in different ways, a proposition is not the same as a deal etc...
I would like to know what the PJ's version of events is. Does Amaral mention a deal in his book?



Surely if you propose something to achieve a better outcome in return, then that's a deal really isn't it.

She said in her book......................

If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide

Isn't that a deal?? If she had agreed then it would have been a done deal.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 14:28

Once and for all, let's clarify this mistification.
According to the Portuguese Penal Procedure Code, there are 3 stages rewlative to criminal actions.

1. INVESTIGATION/INQUIRY
Once you have denounced an event that under the Penal Code may constitute a crime, there's an obligation to notify the Public Ministry. This entity will order the PJ to investigate. Sometimes it's the Police force that was first called that get's in touch with the PJ (as happened in Praia da Luz), but as soon as the PJ detect that there is the possibility of a crime they have to notify the Public Ministry (this is the judge named for their territorial area by the National Public Prosecutor) in order to be validated as a criminal investigation force for that incident. From that moment onward all their actions are under the supervision and scrutiny of the Public Ministry. They cannot interrogate, name "arguidos", follow, tap, search houses, etc...without the previous consent (in a very formal written form) of the judge. When the investigation has reached it's ends, by founding the necessary facts or due to the very tight time schedule it is confined to, the data (reports from the PJ) is analysed by the Public Ministry, and they decide if there is a need to extend the investigation (in Madeleine's case there was an extension, to archive/file it if there is no perspective of achieving a result, or send it to the next instance.

3. PROSECUTION. If an inquiry of a case has gathered enough evidence than it is subjected to another judge(s), to analyse it and to name someone that can present the case to Trial. There may be the need to re-inquest testemonies, or to re-analyse evidence, but the focus is to prepare the case for trial.
Sometimes this phase can be overpassed if the evidence gathered in the Inquiry is strong/coherent enough, but the prosecutor that takes to case to Court is always another one that was not related to the Inquiry.

3. TRIAL. Criminal case are generally judged by a colective of 3 judges, with one presiding, and only excepcionally there are juries (4) selected from the public - but everyone undergoing a criminal charge have the right to demand fo a jury.

What I want everyone to understand is that a criminal process undergoes 3 phases, always under the supervision of a or various judges each, and that they cannot know in advance who will be responsible for what case, because the attribuition is random - like a lottery.

Since the PJ has no power  whatsoever in what concerns the judicial decisions, THERE  IS NO WAY THE PJ COULD IN THEIR NAME OR IN THE NAME OF ANY JUDGE PROPOSE A PLEA BARGAIN. That it's simply not possible in Portugal. Only the Trial judges could consider that a confession could be considered a lenient, but in this case nobody could imagine who the trial judges would be.
ONCE AND FOR ALL: THE PLEA BARGAIN IS AN ATROCIOUS LIE.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 14:31

Hi guestio, I know there is no way the PJ would have offered a deal, I think perhaps you misunderstood my post, I was trying to say that Kate seems to think there was a deal offered, she said so on Piers Morgan, and also in her book, even though her lawyer denied this, as I posted in a previous post.
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by guestio on 08.06.11 14:44

Dear Candyfloss,

I was not responding to you directly, I was responding to that quote from the book, that you very generously highlighted. I guess this is the problem of being only a guest - not being able to use the quotes, not even correct the aberrations that one sometimes writes...Anyway, it's my choice and I have to deal with it.

But I want to make it clear that in no way was I trying to retire the importance of your post or to criticise it. Forgive me if that was the impression I gave.

 
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Re: The reasons for a conspiracy cover up.?

Post by Guest on 08.06.11 14:54

guestio wrote:Dear Candyfloss,

I was not responding to you directly, I was responding to that quote from the book, that you very generously highlighted. I guess this is the problem of being only a guest - not being able to use the quotes, not even correct the aberrations that one sometimes writes...Anyway, it's my choice and I have to deal with it.

But I want to make it clear that in no way was I trying to retire the importance of your post or to criticise it. Forgive me if that was the impression I gave.

 


Nothing to forgive guestio roses I re-read my post, and thought the way I had worded it - it may have looked as though I thought they did do deals.

It's a shame you can't do quotes and things as a guest, see how you feel, and you could always join us as a member thumbsup
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