The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™️ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann. Please note that your username should be different from your email address!

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

(Please note: if you register with the sole intention of disrupting or spamming, please don't expect to be a member for too long.)

Many thanks,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

sniffer dogs - a scenario

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 20:43

Here you are guys, stew over this one and then tell me if you're 100% certain that the dogs could not have got it wrong!






Cadaver Dogs




  •  


 


We are all familiar with the notion of dogs being used to track fleeing individuals or to detect drugs. Dr Anna Williams and Helena Rogers, however, have been looking at the use of so-called 'cadaver dogs'; sniffer dogs trained to search for dead bodies rather than fugitives or illicit substances.
 
A dog has a sense of smell far more acute than ours, and this superior canine sense has been put to use in criminal investigations for centuries. It has been shown, however, that the dogs do not always get it right. Cadaver dogs are trained to detect gases given off by decomposing bodies, but there are questions surrounding their use. For instance how soon after death can they recognise a body, and how long must a 'fresh' body remain in one place for the dog to detect that it has been there. In addition, the dogs are taught by a variety of trainers, with each trainer predictably believing their own method to be better than others. Some train their dogs using synthetic smells, while others use decomposing meat. This means there is increased opportunity for unreliability, which then casts doubt over the dog's effectiveness.
Using buried and unburied pig carcasses to record the gases given off over a three-month period Anna and Helena's research project looked for any association between the stage of decomposition and the odour profile given off, in order to increase the accuracy of the cadaver dogs detection. Decomposition scents change over time so the project was investigating which gases are produced at which stage of decomposition and how long after death. If it is know what gases are given off at a particular point in time, comparisons can be made with the smells that the dogs have been trained to detect, to make sure they are searching for the correct ones.
 
Although this was only a preliminary investigation, the research did find differences in the gases from the carcasses and does show there is potential for further investigations.
 
 
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by xtrouble on 06.06.11 20:54

Strange though, how they only gave false indications on things in the flat, belonging to the McCanns and around their car.

xtrouble

Posts : 8
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2011-05-31

Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by The Shelfstacker on 06.06.11 21:07

Garth wrote:Here you are guys, stew over this one and then tell me if you're 100% certain that the dogs could not have got it wrong!


We are all familiar with the notion of dogs being used to track fleeing individuals or to detect drugs. Dr Anna Williams and Helena Rogers, however, have been looking at the use of so-called 'cadaver dogs'; sniffer dogs trained to search for dead bodies rather than fugitives or illicit substances.

Using buried and unburied pig carcasses to record the gases given off over a three-month period Anna and Helena's research project looked for any association between the stage of decomposition and the odour profile given off, in order to increase the accuracy of the cadaver dogs detection. Decomposition scents change over time so the project was investigating which gases are produced at which stage of decomposition and how long after death. If it is know what gases are given off at a particular point in time, comparisons can be made with the smells that the dogs have been trained to detect, to make sure they are searching for the correct ones.

Although this was only a preliminary investigation, the research did find differences in the gases from the carcasses and does show there is potential for further investigations.



Thank you for bringing that Garth.

Who are the report's authors? You have named them but what is their status, student or fully-fledged scientist?

The last sentence is the bit that stands out for me: Although this was only a preliminary investigation, the research did find differences in the gases from the carcasses and does show there is potential for further investigations.

Where in that sentence or indeed anywhere in the article does it question the ability of cadaver dogs? It finds differences in the levels and quality of carcass gases but does not link this in any way to any dogs.
avatar
The Shelfstacker

Posts : 122
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-02-03

Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Atilliator on 06.06.11 21:36

Fair enough, the dogs may have detected Gerry McCann's after-shave; but there is the statistical factor. The dogs were taken to several apartments in Block 5. They only found cadaverine and blood in 5A. Eddie was shown several cars. He only reacted to one: the McCanns's. Keela, the bloodhound, just happened to find blood in the boot of the car Eddie reacted to, as well as on its key and fob. She also found human blood in a place in an apartment where Eddie found cadaverine. The reports of the blood are garbled but show a reasonable match of Madeleine's DNA. There is no evidence to say that it could not possibly be.

I am told that a stiff will emit gases from post-mortem corruption after about 2 hours. This means that Madeleine's dead body must have been in that apartment for at least that amount of time. It will also mean that Cuddle Cat was adorning her body at least two hours after she died - possibly at the second apartment or in the car.

So far as I am aware, Martin Grime has been the sole trainer of these two dogs. I do not know which gases Eddie is trained to detect.

So let us recap. The bloodhound found samples of blood in two places where the other dog had found cadaverine in an apartment whence a child has vanished and in a car hired by that child's parents. The excuses the parents gave are that, although blood has been found all over the wall, their daughter had grazed her leg or had had a nosebleed. It does not look good for those parents.

It does not look good for those parents.

Atilliator

Posts : 25
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 21:37

I cannot post a link as a guest but the author is Dr Anna Williams at the Cranfield forensic institute which is part of Cranfield University.
 
 
The Royal Military College of Science traces its origins back to 1772. The college moved to its present site in 1946 and the Royal Charter was granted in 1953. In 1984 the MOD awarded a contract to Cranfield University for the provision of academic teaching, support and research. Today this unique faculty undertakes the education of armed forces, civil servants and industry personnel from all over the world.
Cranfield Defence and Security is the only place where experts from Academia and Officers of the British Armed Forces meet to research and teach Defence Management, Science and Technology. Our capability in the field of Defence Management and Technology is unrivalled in terms of the knowledge and expertise which sits under one roof here at Shrivenham.
 
Where in that sentence or indeed anywhere in the article does it question the ability of cadaver dogs? It finds differences in the levels and quality of carcass gases but does not link this in any way to any dogs.
 
It categorically states in the report that 'dogs do not always get it right' and hence why the experiment was conducted in order to make the more accurate!
 
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Mini Slueth on 06.06.11 21:42

Garth, don't you find it a teeny bit strange that the dogs only alerted to the McCanns apartment and car and Kate and Madeleines clothes.
Surely even you would find that strange?
avatar
Mini Slueth

Posts : 104
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2011-05-17

Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Guest on 06.06.11 21:47

Even if the dogs didn't always get it right what are the odds that they got it wrong on all the things belonging to the McCanns, their apartment and no-one else's. What are the odds Garth? They tested all the apartments and Murat's villa, along with cars in the car park. How come they didn't react anywhere else. If they got it wrong with the McCanns, then why didn't they alert anywhere else? How can you possibly explain that. If it was just one item, then I think it might be believable, but all those things put together, nah
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 21:50

Alas, we are getting somewhere....
 
 
I am told that a stiff will emit gases from post-mortem corruption after about 2 hours. This means that Madeleine's dead body must have been in that apartment for at least that amount of time. It will also mean that Cuddle Cat was adorning her body at least two hours after she died - possibly at the second apartment or in the car.
 
I agree and so, being as this is the case, then Madeleine (if you believe she died in that apartment which I dont) must have died BEFORE the McCanns went to dine........and obviously holding the cuddlecat.
 
So the first thing we realise is that Madeleine was'nt discovered dead on the checks.
 
The next thing we discover is that it would negate the argument that they concealed the child in order to alleviate themselves of any blame for leaving them tots on their own.
 
Would this be fair to suggest?
 
 



 
 
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by newguest on 06.06.11 21:51

Garth Today at 20:43

Here you are guys, stew over this one and then tell me if you're 100% certain that the dogs could not have got it wrong!

If you believe the McCanns are 100% innocent Garth then what is the point in your post? Surely the members of this forum don't need to prove anything to 'confirm' your belief in the McCanns innocence do they? Or do they?  Its obvious that you're not at all comfortable or satisfied with your own belief in the McCanns innocence Garth which probably explains why you consider this forum and the opinions of its members a threat to your own conscience.
avatar
newguest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 21:53

I think that's a fair point Candy, but did I read in Kates book that the dog reacted in another apartment, which, if true, begs more questions.
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 21:54

post deleted by admin.
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by ufercoffy on 06.06.11 21:55

Mark Harrison "If you ask me, 'Will a machine replace dogs?' I would say no."

http://www.biologycorner.com/anatomy/senses/crimedogs.html

Fact is, Garth, is that both dogs alerted to 'stuff' in the McCann's apartment and hire car. Madeleine is missing and you cannot expect us to believe that she was abducted when there is a huge question mark over the abduction theory and that there is evidence that something else happened to her.

Give it a rest and give the child some respect. If she really is dead then she will not thank you for trying to convince people she is being loved by some paedophile. And if she is alive then she will thank her parents for taking 4 years to write a book won't she?

____________________
Whose cadaver scent and bodily fluid was found in the McCann's apartment and hire car if not Madeleine's?  Shocked
avatar
ufercoffy

Posts : 1641
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2010-01-04

Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Guest on 06.06.11 21:56

Garth wrote:I think that's a fair point Candy, but did I read in Kates book that the dog reacted in another apartment, which, if true, begs more questions.

Could you post that excerpt from the book Garth, - I haven't seen anything in the files about them reacting anywhere else.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 21:58

I'll see if I can find it!
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 22:26

Page 250
 
'In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs began to root in the corner near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat'.
 
Now that may or may not be anything. But then you have to take this into account...
 
When researching the validity of sniffer-dog evidence later that month, Gerry would discover that false alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconcious signals of the handler. From what I saw of the dogs' responses, this certainly seemed to me to be what was happening here'.
 
 
And then it will make you wonder if the dog would have eventually alerted in the apartment next door! Going on the above..........quite possibly so.
 
And we all know how the dog failed to pick up any scent on the car until it was summoned back. Did MG summon the dog back to any other car.........????????? 
 
 
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Guest on 06.06.11 22:42

Garth wrote:Page 250
 
'In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs began to root in the corner near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat'.
 
Now that may or may not be anything. But then you have to take this into account...
 
When researching the validity of sniffer-dog evidence later that month, Gerry would discover that false alerts can be attributable to the conscious or unconcious signals of the handler. From what I saw of the dogs' responses, this certainly seemed to me to be what was happening here'.
 
 
And then it will make you wonder if the dog would have eventually alerted in the apartment next door! Going on the above..........quite possibly so.
 
And we all know how the dog failed to pick up any scent on the car until it was summoned back. Did MG summon the dog back to any other car.........????????? 
 
 


Firstly the dogs alert in two different ways, one freezes, and one barks, - it seems they did neither. Rooting around means they were sniffing, and they didn't alert by barking or freezing. Weren't the Oldfields staying in the next apartment anyway?

Secondly here is the report with the finding in the apartments. You will note nothing found in any of the others. But what is of interest is that they alerted again in the McCanns second abode the villa they were renting..........................





On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:

5A:

From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.


Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.

Date: 01 ao? 2007 - 06h00

Inspection of the surrounding areas.

Date: August 1st - 6am

After evaluation of the area surrounding the Ocean Club tourist village, based in Praia da Luz, taking account of the characteristic topography of the ground and the distance from where the small child Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was carried out with the help of dogs specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in various places, such as described:

1 - At 6.40am, an area between the "Piteira" road and the "Oliveira" road, was inspected. At 7.15am the inspection was completed with nothing being detected by the dogs.

2 - At 7.25am, an area adjacent to the "BEIJAFLOR" property on the "Figueira," road, defined by the "Ramalhete" road. An inspection of the whole area was made and nothing abnormal was noted.
The inspection was completed at 7.45am.

3 - At 7.55am, an area between the "Casa Azul" residence on the "Figueira" road and the "Casa Pandora" residence as well as a dirt road on the left of the "Figueira" road was inspected by the dogs without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.05am.

4 - At 8.20am, an area between the residences "Casa Pandora" on the "Figueira" road, "Quinta Mimosa" and "Casa Ladeira" without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.40am.

A photographic report of the places inspected is attached.

Initial conclusion.

To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.

Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.

So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:

1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal.
2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.



So they then decided to check the McCanns villa...................



Villa rue des Fleurs.

Report:

August 2nd 2007 -6.14pm - 27 Rue das Floras- Praia Da Luz - Lagos

Participants:

PJ: Ricardo P & J. Carlos P., inspectors.
UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime & Eddie.

On that date, within the context of a residential search, carried out at the McCann couple's current residence, an inspection by a dog handling team was made. Thus, at the time indicated at the beginning of the report, all areas of the property were inspected and the following results obtained:

6.36pm - The dog Eddie, who detects cadaver odours, "marked" the area of a cupboard in the living room. On checking, the dog was indicating a pink soft toy belonging to Madeleine McCann. The clothes.

Date: August 2nd 2007 - 11.20pm

On that date, following the home visit made to the McCann's' current residence, on the Rue des Fleurs, various items of clothing were laid out in an appropriate place for this purpose, to carry out an inspection by the dog handling unit.

The collected items of clothing were set out individually with the agreement and under the directions provided by the British technicians, the dogs having previously covered the space where the clothing was laid out.

1 - 11.20pm: Prior reconnaissance of the place by the two canine units to guarantee that the space was clear of all odours being sought. The reconnaissance was completed at 11.30pm without anything being signalled by the dogs.

2 - 11.30pm: An initial inspection by the human blood detecting dog, began with the clothing packed in the box bearing the notation: "Living room." At 11.40pm, the inspection was completed without the dog showing anything abnormal.

11.41: The canine human remains recovery dog started its inspection and "marked" various clothes. The inspection was completed at 11.52pm. The clothes were returned to their box for later use.

From 12.02am until 1.30am, (03/08/07) all the other boxes, containing clothing from the twins' bedroom, from the friends' bedroom, from the bedroom of the couple labelled 1 & 2, as well as the empty luggage, was inspected by the two dogs without conclusive results


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm




avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 22:45

I've just watched the video and infact Martin Grimes shouts out to the dog twice to come back to the same car. Did Martine Grimes move on to the next car after the scenic? No.
 
So the above is enough to convince me that these dogs DO react to CONSCIOUS signals by its handler.
 
And that would explain why nothing was picked up in any of the other apartments wouldn't it!  
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Guest on 06.06.11 23:01

Garth wrote:I've just watched the video and infact Martin Grimes shouts out to the dog twice to come back to the same car. Did Martine Grimes move on to the next car after the scenic? No.
 
So the above is enough to convince me that these dogs DO react to CONSCIOUS signals by its handler.
 
And that would explain why nothing was picked up in any of the other apartments wouldn't it!  


So basically what you are saying is (and we have done this before on another thread) that Martin Grimes wanted the dogs to alert to the McCanns car, in other words he was setting them up. I suppose he was told to do this by the PJ or was it all his own idea to incrimate the McCanns. Garth if you believe that, then I think you have totally lost the plot. Why would Mr Grimes want to incriminate two parents that had just lost a child, if anything I would have thought he would want to help clear them, wouldn't you?
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 23:04

I haven't lost the plot Candy, but I am making observations from the evidence in the footage.
 
There is no question that MG made a beeline for that car.
 
You draw your own conclusions from that.
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 23:05

Goodnight!
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 23:13

I would just like to reply to this.....
 
Why would Mr Grimes want to incriminate two parents that had just lost a child, if anything I would have thought he would want to help clear them, wouldn't you?
 
On the contrary, Mr Grimes would want to help convict killers of a child, which is what the PJ invited him in for wasnt it!
 
Not forgetting the money he would earn!
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Guest on 06.06.11 23:17

Garth wrote:I would just like to reply to this.....
 
Why would Mr Grimes want to incriminate two parents that had just lost a child, if anything I would have thought he would want to help clear them, wouldn't you?
 
On the contrary, Mr Grimes would want to help convict killers of a child, which is what the PJ invited him in for wasnt it!
 
Not forgetting the money he would earn!


I don't think the PJ did invite them Garth, on the contrary, it was the UK police that suggested it IIRC. And it just gets better, now you say he wanted to set them up for the money, good grief, I hope Mr Grimes is reading here.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 23:24

If you read my post carefully Candy, all Im saying is that Martin Grimes wanted a result. He would have been paid a lot of money for those dogs. That, coupled with the fact that he may be proving the guilt of the parents into the death of their daughter would be enough to unconciously or conciously signal the dogs.................as can quite clearly be seen in the car footage.
 
And Kate Heely does have a point about the other apartments. And we all know MG KNEW which apartment the McCanns stayed in due to the coverage of the investigation in the media.
 
No prizes there............
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Guest on 06.06.11 23:27

Garth wrote:If you read my post carefully Candy, all Im saying is that Martin Grimes wanted a result. He would have been paid a lot of money for those dogs. That, coupled with the fact that he may be proving the guilt of the parents into the death of their daughter would be enough to unconciously or conciously signal the dogs.................as can quite clearly be seen in the car footage.
 
And Kate Heely does have a point about the other apartments. And we all know MG KNEW which apartment the McCanns stayed in due to the coverage of the investigation in the media.
 
No prizes there............


Just a small point Garth, the handler and dogs charge a fee, to do a job, whether there is a result or not. He doesn't get "extra" if they alert, so where is the motivation.
avatar
Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: sniffer dogs - a scenario

Post by Garth on 06.06.11 23:31

Candy
 
The eyes of the world was on this case. The PJ believed strongly that the McCanns concealed the death of a little girl.
 
How much more motivating would you need? That doesnt mean to say MG is corrupt at all.
avatar
Garth
Guest


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 3 1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum