Re: McCanns were broke in 2007

by pauline 07.06.11 9:09

Can someone who has the book say if they mention the cost of the IVF treatments.

Its an interesting suggestion that they could have got free treatment by participating in a research project.

I have always assumed they paid the normal (large) fees.

by Guest 07.06.11 9:14

In this country, in certain areas the first cycle of IVF was free. If you needed a second cycle you had to pay for it.

But we know they had theirs done in Holland. I wonder why that was?

Even if they said they paid XYZ in the book for IVF, I wouldn't believe them.

by pauline 07.06.11 9:21

Stella wrote:In this country, in certain areas the first cycle of IVF was free. If you needed a second cycle you had to pay for it.

But we know they had theirs done in Holland. I wonder why that was?

Even if they said they paid XYZ in the book for IVF, I wouldn't believe them.

I think they needed a no of treatments for madeleine, maybe less for the twins. I understand as you say you get one free treatment in the Uk, then you have to pay. Couples often travel because particularly if treatment in your own country hasn't worked you look at success rates overseas and go there. In our family, there was no success in Ireland and thousands spent (no free treatment here) - so my relative went to Prague for treatment because this doctor had I think a slightly different method and a statistically better success rate. She now has a 9 month old daughter.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.06.11 12:39

pauline wrote:Can someone who has the book say if they mention the cost of the IVF treatments.

Its an interesting suggestion that they could have got free treatment by participating in a research project. I have always assumed they paid the normal (large) fees.

The IVF treatment is mentioned in Chapter 2 of the book, the chapter itself is also titled simply: 'Madeleine'.

There is no mention whatsoever of any costs and no mention at all about any period of time spent in Holland.

Dr Kate says they were living in Queniborough at the time. Gerry played squash and joined Rothley Park Golf Club.

Dr Kate says (p. 21): "Eventually I saw a doctor [about not becoming pregnant], underwent tests and was diagnised with endometriosis..."

She then had "...over a year of surgery with laser treatment and hormonal injections, all to no avail".

They took the decision to 'try IVF'.

She went into 'the hospital' for pregnany tests. The name of the hospital is not given (p. 22).

She refers to the 'IVF team' (p. 23), and refers to such procedures as 'defrosted embryos' not having survived and 'beginning new cycles' etc.

Gerry decided not to go to an important cardiology conference in Berlin as he needed to produce a new sperm sample for fertilisation at the same time as the Berlin conference. He told Dr Kate: "The IVF is more imprtant" (p. 24).

She fell pregnant after being implanted with more embryos (p. 24) and then (p. 25): "My pregnancy was totally without complication".

She speaks about being awake all night after Madeleine was born on 12 May (p. 27) and then later in the day she says her father drove at speeds of up to over 100mph to reach the [still unnamed] hospital maternity ward, in order to "get there by visiting time". She does not say how many days she spent in hospital.

I can find nothing in this chapter or eslewhere about paying for any IVF treatment nor about any period around this time (or any other time) when they were supposed to be in Holland.

by Guest 07.06.11 13:19

There is an article somewhere that says in 2004, whilst still in Holland, "Kate fell pregnant again through IVF" with the twins. This is why I was under the impression that Madeleine was also created in Holland, as Gerry was working there at the time.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.06.11 13:37

Stella wrote:There is an article somewhere that says in 2004, whilst still in Holland, "Kate fell pregnant again through IVF" with the twins. This is why I was under the impression that Madeleine was also created in Holland, as Gerry was working there at the time.

This is covered on p.31 of Dr Kate's book, where she explains that when Madeleine was just 6 months old, "I returned to work at the surgery, part-time...Leaving [Madeleine] was an incredible wrench..."

Then:

"...this arrangement didn't last long: in January 2004, when Madeleine was seven months old, we rented out our house and moved for a year to Amsterdam. where Gerry had a fellowship to study cardiac magnetic resonnace imaghing (MRI)...what he learned in Amsterdam advanced Gerry's career..."

On p. 32 we learn that the McCanns sought IVF again by consulting a Dutch doctor 'in the spring' of 2004, and "...just a month later we had an appointment with a specialist and within only six more weeks we found ourselves starting another cycle of IVF in Amsterdam".

Again, no mention whatsoever of any costs.

The twins were born in February 2005.

On page 37 we learn that the twins were born on 1 February 2005, while on page 36 Dr Kate informs us: "At thirty-nine weeks, the twins were induced".

This then gives us an approximate date of 1 May 2005 for when Dr Kate fell pregnant with the twins.

That is a little strange in view of the above comments of Dr Kate, referring to a period of 'one month and another six weeks' in between visiting the Dutch doctor and 'starting another IVF cycle'. That means that at the very latest, Dr Kate must have seen the Dutch doctor on or before around 15 February 2005.

Hardly 'spring'.

by Guest 07.06.11 13:49

Payments in return for a sperm donor in the Netherlands. Interesting concept. !! A savings bank.
http://www.ivf.net/ivf/new-law-affects-sperm-donation-in-the-netherlands-o313.html

by LittleMissMolly 07.06.11 14:12

I've just started the book today ...

Kate fell pregnant with Madeleine in her 2nd cycle of IVF. There is no mention of any costs - which is completely in line with NHS guidelines that a couple should receive up to 3 cycles of IVF free.

As far as the IVF for the twins in Holland goes, Kate's exact wording is telling "Not being Dutch citizens, we weren’t sure if we would be entitled to any treatment at all, so we were surprised and delighted when, just a month later, we had an appointment with a specialist and within only six more weeks we found ourselves starting another cycle of IVF in Amsterdam."

The use of the word 'entitled' indicates to me that the treatment was free ... after all, you don't need to be entititled to spend money Wink

by stumo 03.04.12 1:05

Sorry to bring this topic back up but having only just started to read up on this case recently (and having suspicions from the very start), how were the Mcanns broke in 2007?

After asking friends in the medical profession what the pair could earn, i was told anywhere between 200 and 400kPa depending on how greedy they were. With that information i would say they were nearer 400k than the smaller amount!

They had a £2000/month motgage but didn't have any kids in expensive private schools which can swallow up money very quickly, so what other heavy outgoings did they have ?

by Spaniel 03.04.12 4:23

He alone would have been on the highest band I would have thought, today that is 97k. I don't know whether a cardiologist does "on call" night shifts etc to boost earnings, but he was also working at the Spire private hospital as well.

I don't know where the idea that they were broke came from originally. Just because they paid their mortgage from the frund, doesn't mean they were broke. Remember the frund was to support them and the extended family, so they took the opportunity. I wonder how the press found them out. I wonder also if they still have a mortgage. Land Registry would state whether they have but not how much.

by Spaniel 03.04.12 5:14

I remember now stumo, the broke remark originated from G's sister, Philomena I believe.

by **tigger** 03.04.12 6:14

I believe they were broke in 2007. Philomena has a habit of telling the truth by accident. If the family had to help them out with the mortgage, then they were in need of money.

It must be possible to find out the average income of a cardiologist consultant. Kate didn't work much at all, I understand. So by 2007, she was bringing in very little? One to two days per week work max?

Certainly the money can't have been spent on IVF, which they got free both times. They did have a lot of holidays and weekends away - but that should have been easy for them.
OC isn't exactly top of the range either - so where did the money go?

by Spaniel 03.04.12 8:10

Sorry for my error, it seems it was Patricia Cameron in Dec 2010, who said the family had to help with their mortgage when Madeleine first went missing.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/editors-choice/2010/12/23/madeleine-mccann-s-aunt-explains-why-she-has-joined-charity-for-missing-people-and-how-search-for-little-girl-goes-on-86908-22802145/

CM said they stopped using the fund in September 2007. So Sept and August was paid from fund. July from the family? Unless of course the remark from Trish was damage limitation for fund payments and to futher the cause for aiding families of missing people.

tigger, the NHS work to pay bands, but that is only the beginning. If say a surgeon works nights in emergency theatre, is on call or operates on private patients as they do to keep waiting lists down, they will earn a lot more. A cardiologist is required in theatre to monitor heart equipment. Whether that would be GM I don't know.

by butterfly23 05.10.12 19:18

..we are supposed to believe there were no thoughts of a fund or anything like that- til gerry has a ''vision'' while seeking spiritual guidance in a chapel..........i do believe the vision he had was of lots and lots of £££££££££££ signs...long before any searches for spiritual truth... !!!

by Guest 05.10.12 20:26

Tony Bennett wrote:
Stella wrote:There is an article somewhere that says in 2004, whilst still in Holland, "Kate fell pregnant again through IVF" with the twins. This is why I was under the impression that Madeleine was also created in Holland, as Gerry was working there at the time.
This is covered on p.31 of Dr Kate's book, where she explains that when Madeleine was just 6 months old, "I returned to work at the surgery, part-time...Leaving [Madeleine] was an incredible wrench..."

Then:

"...this arrangement didn't last long: in January 2004, when Madeleine was seven months old, we rented out our house and moved for a year to Amsterdam. where Gerry had a fellowship to study cardiac magnetic resonnace imaghing (MRI)...what he learned in Amsterdam advanced Gerry's career..."

On p. 32 we learn that the McCanns sought IVF again by consulting a Dutch doctor 'in the spring' of 2004, and "...just a month later we had an appointment with a specialist and within only six more weeks we found ourselves starting another cycle of IVF in Amsterdam".

Again, no mention whatsoever of any costs.

The twins were born in February 2005.

On page 37 we learn that the twins were born on 1 February 2005, while on page 36 Dr Kate informs us: "At thirty-nine weeks, the twins were induced".

This then gives us an approximate date of 1 May 2005 for when Dr Kate fell pregnant with the twins.

That is a little strange in view of the above comments of Dr Kate, referring to a period of 'one month and another six weeks' in between visiting the Dutch doctor and 'starting another IVF cycle'. That means that at the very latest, Dr Kate must have seen the Dutch doctor on or before around 15 February 2005.

Hardly 'spring'.

No mention of costs?

Either dutch social services coughed it up, or a sympathetic colleague of GM sandwiched them in between.
It's higly irregular in Holland to get a second IVF, and particularly so, when you already have a child, let alone a six month old child.It's just plain crazy to impregnate a women who has a six month old baby with twins.

Strings must have been pulled big time. Really big time.

by **tigger** 05.10.12 20:42

So basically:
When Maddie was 8 - 9 months old she started treatment - counting back from conception on around the 1st April 2004, one month and six weeks and presumably a little further back for the appointments etc. Which makes it at the latest mid February 2004.
So she got pregnant again just over 10 months after Maddie was born. That is strange considering the problems they had with Maddie. Unless it was because of the problems they had with Maddie.

Not only started treatment, but in a foreign country where (according to Portia) a second free dose of IVF is rarely granted.

by jd 05.10.12 21:17

Maybe their credit card "friend' helped them out!

by Guest 01.01.14 17:44

Bumping this topic as the question of whether or not the McCanns were broke before the holiday has been raised elsewhere.

by Guest 01.01.14 17:47

Thank you, NFWTD.

by Daisy 01.01.14 18:01

This bit at the very end of Matthew Oldield's Rog statement sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

"The interviewee thinks that it is a kidnapping with the intention to demand a ransom from the parents, because these are people who are very comfortable financially."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm

by stumo 01.01.14 18:05

Whether they were broke or not, i can't think why using the fund to pay for the mortgage would bother them in the slightest as they seem to use everyone/ everything else that's available.

i think the broke comment was made because someone had brought the payment to their attention or it was purely for pity.

by Doug D 01.01.14 19:11

Daisy,

Matthew would have had at least a perceived idea of their sort of level of income and seen their apparent affluence over the number of years he had known them. A couple of ‘doctors’, nice house, cars, clothes etc and outward show of affluence would certainly lead to this impression, whether true or not and he would be unlikely to have any real knowledge of their liabilities to count against it.
If you wanted to reinforce your conveyed position, ‘Kate's uncle is Brian Kennedy’ dropped into conversation would not go amiss, without any need to clarify that this was not the one who later did provide financial backing to them.
I didn’t want to propose a misconception idea as any sort of theory, we’ve got enough of those and I don't personally believe any 'abduction' line, but back in the 70’s, there was the Rolf Schild family kidnapping in Sardinia iirc, where the kidnappers thought they were part of the Rothschild family.

by Guest 01.01.14 23:00

i never noticed that in his statement before, i wonder if this was the initial plan by them to divert attention elsewhere but then given all the advice they received in early days it was too big a risk. I often get the impression from some of the statements some of tapas group are trying to leak snippets of info.imo

by **Hobs** 02.01.14 4:38

She fell pregnant after being implanted with more embryos (p. 24) and then (p. 25): "My pregnancy was totally without complication".

If this was a direct quite from the book then she has just told us more than one embryo was implanted which is usual hence the risk of a multiple pregnancy with IVF.

Could this mean that Maddie was herself a twin especially since it says the pregnancy was without complication.

by **tigger** 02.01.14 7:26

Possibly a timeline of the money issue could be constructed.

Obviously they should have been comfortably off even from the date they married.
If we take that as a starting point - Gerry gave Father Seddon a set of golfclubs from St. Andrews.
A very expensive present. If Gerry was a member of St. Andrews that would be another chunk out of the budget.

Then there is the post 3/5 behaviour:

Money boxes in the OC.
The free wine offered by OC - I believe Gerry took some 14 bottles.
The free accommodation for friends and family.
The two free apartments which the McCanns had to vacate after two months - having to pay rent after that date evidently rankled.
Paying the mortgage in June and July from the ltd.co is curuious, it means the money had to be transferred from the fund account to the one with the standing order.
Might the credit card problem simply be that there was/ had been outsanding payments?
Then the rather late date of hiring a car and who paid for the hire?

In short, it looked to me that the McCanns were grabbing all they could at the time, like wanderers in the desert coming across water just in time to save their lives.

As to Gerry's work, iirc he got six months compassionate leave, Kate got paid for two months.
Gerry returned to work part time around November iirc (clip of statement in forensic linguistics) and full time in the beginning of 2008.