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Martin Grime facts and explanations

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Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 25.05.11 13:28

Following on from Me's excellent recommendations, I have started a concise report for eventual entry into the Library, to aid with discrepencies raised over the dogs actions.

If anyone has already started this, please let me know and I will not go on any further. So far it reads;



Martin Grime U.K.A.C.P.O.

Accredited Police Dog Training Instructor.

Subject Matter Expert registered with the N.C.P.E.

Specialist Homicide Canine Search Advisor.

Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, with the FBI.

Dogs may only be deployed upon the request of a Senior Investigating Officer (S.I.O.) following a consultation with the appropriate S.M.E.'s and advisors.

They are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained.



Eddie - The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.

Keela - The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

The initial training of Eddie is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K., is not acceptable at this point in time. The following notes of guidance should be considered when assessing indications:

In six years of operational deployment in over 200 cases, the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence anecdotal witness accounts.

Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.RD., system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response. Although the dog is 'trained' using reward based methods the behaviour, the shaping and enforcement regime ensures that the dog does not produce a false alert.

Pseudo scent is a chemically produced product that its manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some trainers have had limited success, when tested on Martin Grime's dogs, they showed no interest.



Eddie will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof.

Whether deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal.

If the remains have been incinerated, he will still locate them even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.

The dog will locate cadaver in water, either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat, where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.

The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles.


If there is no retrievable evidence for court purposes, it may well assist intelligence gathering in a Major Crime.

The dog will alert to the presence of 'dead body' scent ,whether it is at source or some distance away from a deposition site.


Keela will accurately locate human blood, on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

The dog will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing, also crime scenes for minute human blood deposits.

In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

In order for the dog to locate the source the blood, it must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities. Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable level for accurate location.


It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Me on 26.05.11 9:16

In six years of operational deployment in over 200 cases, the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs. The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'. Alerts given by the dog where no obvious human remains are found are supported by forensic evidence anecdotal witness accounts.

Oops! There goes the " we were taking rubbish to the tip defence".

Still not sure whether Eddie also alerts to blood as well as cadaver odour.

A defence cited for the Mccann's is that there was blood in the apartment (not Madeliene's blood of course, no way unless it was that nosebleed she had behind the sofa which we didnt remember until the blood was actually found, or the blood from when she fell down the airplane steps that was still bleeding when they got to the apartment) and that all Eddie did was alert to the presence of blood NOT cadaver odour.

Do we know any more info which can lay this defence to rest?

It seems strange that a cadaver dog would also alert to blood as well. How would you know what he is alerting to if that was the case? And what's the point then of having a second blood only dog?

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 26.05.11 9:34

How spooky, I was just finding the proof to lay that one to rest as well.

I thought about this overnight, after preparing the list from yesterday.

Eddie can alert to blood, but this proves that he did independently alert to cadaver, on the basis that Keela did NOT alert in the same place, who is specifically trained to detect blood.


From the PJ Final Report

- cadaver odour dog:
*in the couple’s bedroom, in a corner, close to the wardrobe;
*in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment;

- blood dog:
* in the living room, behind the sofa, close to the lateral window of the apartment (exactly as it was signalled by the cadaver odour dog);


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 26.05.11 9:41

@Me wrote:
It seems strange that a cadaver dog would also alert to blood as well. How would you know what he is alerting to if that was the case? And what's the point then of having a second blood only dog?

I have often asked that question myself, but having 2 independent dogs alerting in the exact same places, reinforces the findings I guess. Which is a good thing.

I think, but I'm still looking for a better explanation, that Eddie detects blood from a cadaver. Whereas, Keela can find all types of blood, from a living or a dead person.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Me on 26.05.11 15:54

Stella wrote:
@Me wrote:
It seems strange that a cadaver dog would also alert to blood as well. How would you know what he is alerting to if that was the case? And what's the point then of having a second blood only dog?

I have often asked that question myself, but having 2 independent dogs alerting in the exact same places, reinforces the findings I guess. Which is a good thing.

I think, but I'm still looking for a better explanation, that Eddie detects blood from a cadaver. Whereas, Keela can find all types of blood, from a living or a dead person.

Can we not just give Martin a call?

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 26.05.11 15:59

I wish we could. But he has been gagged.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Me on 26.05.11 16:33

Here's another one Stella you might be able to help with.

I've seen on some of the Pro forums that they hold credence to an issue with Cuddlecat (i think in the villa).

I recall from memory it went along the lines of the dog didn't alert to it in a basket (??) but did in a cupboard?

Can you clarify?

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 26.05.11 17:03

I'll have to have a think about that one.

I think form memory, there was 2 cuddlecats, one in the lounge in a basket, the other in the dresser. We know there was more than one cuddlecat, because the one Eddie alerted to was kept by the PJ at Martin Grime's request. Then there were many different pictures of different versions after that. But I will see what I can find.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by lj on 26.05.11 17:10

IIRC ther were multiple cuddlecats, I believe even more than 2.

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 26.05.11 21:14

Stella wrote:I wish we could. But he has been gagged.

I believe Stevo has chatted to Martin yes
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Me on 26.05.11 21:51

@admin wrote:
Stella wrote:I wish we could. But he has been gagged.

I believe Stevo has chatted to Martin

And???? You little tease!

Tell us more?

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 26.05.11 22:06

@Me wrote:
@admin wrote:
Stella wrote:I wish we could. But he has been gagged.

I believe Stevo has chatted to Martin

And???? You little tease!

Tell us more?

If you google Steve Marsden speaks to Martin Grime you get these links

http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=steve+marsden+speaks+to+martin+grime&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=749b9b74a27a2bce&biw=1118&bih=651
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 30.05.11 9:54

During the inspection in the car park, Keela who detects traces of blood, marked an area inside the hire car, which contained the key-card attached to the Budget Rental company key-ring.

In order to substantiate this find, the key-card was hidden inside a fire bucket which was covered up with sand and was moved quite considerable distance away. Keela once again made her signal, this time to the bucket of sand which concealed the key-card.

This verifies that on two separate occasions, in two separate places, she was signalling to the presence of blood on the key-card that belonged to the McCann’s hire car.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 30.05.11 10:17

I've just found this. What does it mean by "a third in wood" ?


OBJECTS FOR EXAMINATION (from the villa)
1. One (01) pink cloth toy, with yellow paws and ears and blue label, make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].
2. Clothes, shoes, bags [hand-bags; suitcases] and travel bags [knapsacks] that were packed as follows:
- Lounge, two boxes.
- Master bedroom, two boxes.
- Twins' bedroom, one suitcase.
- Visitors' bedroom, one suitcase.
3. Various papers.
- One bible, bedside table of the master bedroom.
- Two diaries and a notepad that was found in the cupboard of the master bedroom.
- On pair of latex gloves, that was found in a drawer of a bedside table of the visitors' bedroom.
- There being nothing more to record, the present activity was ended at 20h30.
- This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be duly signed.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by HotlipsHealy on 30.05.11 10:34

Don't know Stella, unless it means some kind of wooden toy?

But there's those latex gloves that Garth and RBxHN reckon the abductor used. lol4 Found in the visitor's bedroom...and let's face it the abductor was deemed to be a visitor cos Kate reckons he was there the night before he took Madeleine
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 30.05.11 10:39



That was my first thoughts too Hotlipshealy, a wooden toy, but I have never seen this mentioned before or a photo of it.

I did find this photo, which appears to have a green band of some kind around it's neck.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by littlepixie on 30.05.11 11:17

Does it mean the religious paraphenalia that is around cuddlecats neck? I have always had an uneasy feeling about the interest in Fatima. When I researched the shrine it details what is child abuse.

"According to Lúcia's account, Mary exhorted the children to do penance
to save sinners. They wore tight cords around their waists to cause
pain, abstained from drinking water on hot days, and other works of
penance.



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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by littlepixie on 30.05.11 11:19

Why should innocent children have to be tortured to save sinners, surely the Bible says Jesus died for that. No need to torture Children.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 30.05.11 11:25

Littlepixie, that is just awful and very sad.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 30.05.11 11:30

Stella wrote:
make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

It was found in the lounge, which excludes Kates photo-frame in the bedroom, with rosary beads over it.

It was found "on top of a large chair" an armchair. surely this must mean another cuddlecat.

I will have to look at the dog video again.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 30.05.11 11:37

Stella wrote:
Stella wrote:
make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

It was found in the lounge, which excludes Kates photo-frame in the bedroom, with rosary beads over it.

It was found "on top of a large chair" an armchair. surely this must mean another cuddlecat.

I will have to look at the dog video again.



It does seem as though there were 2 cuddlecats.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by Guest on 30.05.11 12:02

I've just watched the video of Eddie in the lounge of the villa. What I think he does is lift a cuddlecat off of something. Either on or behind the back of an armchair. The video is too shaky to determine which exactly. But I think because Eddie showed some interest in it by moving it, without barking, it was one of the items they put aside for further investigation that they added to their list.

Later on Eddie alerts to another cuddlecat that was inside the cupboard in the dining area. So on that day at least there were two different ones, as you can tell this by what was seen around their necks. The one found inside the cupboard had more around it's neck, than the one that we saw in the lounge from the chair area.

Another issue sorted I think. There was two cuddlecats, eddie only alerted cadaver on one of them.
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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by PeterMac on 30.05.11 12:15

Two or more Catii Cuddleorum, is fascinating.
It makes it possible for Katey to have taken one to work for use as a swab during Post Mortems, AND for the uncle to have given one to Madeleine for her 4th birthday, (but given sooner, or obvious reasons.)
It also makes it possible for one of the Catii to be on the pillow, and simultaneously on a high shelf (- except that there wasn't a high shelf, but there might still have been a cat. A sort of Cheshire Cuddle Cat, which appears and disappears slowly as you watch it, leaving behind only the grin.)

It would explain why the one the police photographed and that we have been shown is fairly obviously not 4 years old
Why did not Katey think of this before. It sems so obvious.
If I were her, I would sack the proof readers.

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by lj on 30.05.11 14:00

Stella wrote:

That was my first thoughts too Hotlipshealy, a wooden toy, but I have never seen this mentioned before or a photo of it.

I did find this photo, which appears to have a green band of some kind around it's neck.

And a wooden rosary.......

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Re: Martin Grime facts and explanations

Post by lj on 30.05.11 14:02

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
Stella wrote:
Stella wrote:
make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

It was found in the lounge, which excludes Kates photo-frame in the bedroom, with rosary beads over it.

It was found "on top of a large chair" an armchair. surely this must mean another cuddlecat.

I will have to look at the dog video again.



It does seem as though there were 2 cuddlecats.

IIRC there were up to 4 cuddlecats.

Maybe they were cheaper by the dozen.

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http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/
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