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The Shutters

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Re: The Shutters

Post by solva on 10.08.11 1:09

The shutter has no break-in damage therefore the shutter was opened from inside, using the strap.

The window has no break-in damage therefore the window was opened from inside, using the handle.

The window, and the shutter, were both opened from inside, by one of the individuals who entered the apartment that night.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 10.08.11 1:17

i dont know solva why does kate say smashed?
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Re: The Shutters

Post by solva on 10.08.11 1:53

IMO she made the mistaken assumption that the shutter, and the window, had been opened from outside, and because the only way to open window and shutter from outside is by force, that leads automatically to the mistaken assumption that the window and shutter were forcibly opened (smashed). The key is, she does not say she saw any physical damage to shutter or to window, does she?

Contuinuing:

The person who opened the window did so from inside by grasping the handle, turning the handle, then pushing the handle sideways (which slides open half of the window). There is no need to touch the window frame. Opening from inside leaves no fingerprints on window frame.

The person who opened the shutter did so from inside by operating the webbing strap. There was no need to touch the shutter. Opening from inside leaves no fingerprints on the shutter.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Gillyspot on 10.08.11 6:48

David Payne said the shutters had been damaged on the 4th May 2007 (apologies for google translation but I am sure that bars=shutters since there were no bars on the window)

"The National Guard received alert parents at 23.50 yesterday. A family friend, Jill Rewick, said the couple left the girl in the room to sleep at around eight at night, they went there at nine and found it good, but once again went to the room at ten o'clock at night, the girl had disappeared.

According to Dave Payne, a friend of the child's parents who accompanied them at the dinner that took place while the girl disappeared, the couple suspected that her daughter was the victim of a premeditated kidnapping, due to how the suspects entered the apartment without alerting the other children and without possessions.

The friend states that were having dinner in a restaurant that is located in the Ocean Club resort, a few dozen meters from the apartment where the family was staying for about a week and visibility to the front of it.

When given the disappearance of the child, the parents thought that she was in the apartment or had left briefly, because the child's bedroom door was open. However, it was when they came across the bars of the windows of this room forced (located in the rear of the apartment and not visible from the restaurant) who suspected that something serious had happened. Inside the room, the twins continued to sleep without any agitation appear, also said Dave Payne."

Interestingly Jill Renwick seems to be implying hourly checks not every 30 mins.

http://aeiou.expresso.pt/crianca-inglesa-desapareceu-no-algarve=f95282
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 10.08.11 8:06

@solva wrote:

The person who opened the window did so from inside by grasping the handle, turning the handle, then pushing the handle sideways (which slides open half of the window). There is no need to touch the window frame. Opening from inside leaves no fingerprints on window frame.

There is every need to touch the window frame when you are in a panic and unfamiliar with how the window opens. Does it just slide? How easy does it slide? Is anyone outside, should I take a look?

The fact remains, ONLY Kate's prints were found on that window and she denied ever touching it.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by solva on 10.08.11 15:20

Stella wrote:(snip) There is every need to touch the window frame when you are in a panic and unfamiliar with how the window opens.
It is obvious how the window opens from inside, because there is a handle.

Stella wrote:Does it just slide? How easy does it slide?

Yes the east pane of the window slides open sideways IMO, I presume it slides easily after you turn the handle IMO, and the west pane is fixed IMO.

Stella wrote:The fact remains, ONLY Kate's prints were found on that window
The person who opened the window from inside would IMO leave no prints on the window frame, only on the window handle. That is if I have understood the window design correctly. I suggest the two marks made by her were made when she looked out the open window, which had already been opened from inside by a different person.

Stella wrote:and she denied ever touching it.
I am assuming she touched the window when she looked out of it. I may be wrong, so please remind me the source where she denies touching the window? Thankyou.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 10.08.11 15:54

You forgot one thing solva, picture this.

Bed in front of window, Kate leans over with one knee on bed, RH opens window, LH rests on the window and frame for balance and bingo.

Goncalo Amaral confirmed in his book, the window had been cleaned the previous day and that Kate McCann stated she has never opened that window. Never opened it, means never touched it.

The Forensic report confirms which hand she used for what. She is right handed, is she not?

From the glass located on the inside of childs window,
5 prints were recovered, 3 from the middle finger of LH, 2 from the index finger of LH, all belonging to Kate McCann.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 10.08.11 16:03





Above Kate is holding her medal in her right hand, below she is holding the microphone in right hand, she is right handed.

The right hand opened the window lever on the right, the left hand would have been used to steady herself. It was prints from the left hand that was found.

As they say, it's an open and shut case. Sorry for the pun.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by solva on 10.08.11 16:49

The person who opened the window from inside may have been standing on the floor at the end of the bed. The window can be opened without climbing on the bed.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto7.jpg

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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 10.08.11 23:09

i dont agree solva this is why
Maddie was dead 28th 29th
maddies body they hide in 5a for some days
the mccanns did not use 5a to sleep in or live in a extra bed was for the mccanns to use in another room one of the T7 rooms
5a was the setup room for the 3 may 2007
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Re: The Shutters

Post by solva on 11.08.11 0:25

Your theory about the previous weekend does not alter the evidence that the window and the shutter were both opened on Thursday evening without being damaged, and it is impossible to do that from outside, therefore they were opened from inside, using the window handle, and the shutter strap (behind the curtain), on Thursday evening by a person who entered the apartment through a door.

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The shutters

Post by Guest on 11.08.11 0:52

At least we are agreed Solva that nobody came in from outside through the window. Personally I believe that whatever befell Madeleine happened prior to 3rd May and I give no credibility to the McCanns' version of events but you of course are welcome to have a different opinion.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by solva on 11.08.11 1:30

Jean wrote:At least we are agreed Solva that nobody came in from outside through the window. Personally I believe that whatever befell Madeleine happened prior to 3rd May and I give no credibility to the McCanns' version of events but you of course are welcome to have a different opinion.
Yes good we agree that no-one came in through the window. I go a little further and say also the window and shutter were opened from inside :)

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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 11.08.11 7:07

i agree with Stella not solva
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Gillyspot on 11.08.11 7:38

@solva wrote:
Jean wrote:At least we are agreed Solva that nobody came in from outside through the window. Personally I believe that whatever befell Madeleine happened prior to 3rd May and I give no credibility to the McCanns' version of events but you of course are welcome to have a different opinion.
Yes good we agree that no-one came in through the window. I go a little further and say also the window and shutter were opened from inside :)

I agree solva - They were both opened on the inside BUT by Kate McCann! There is no evidence of anything else happening. Even Kate in her "novel" agrees that perhaps no one came in or out of the window. Would that be because now she cannot dispute the claims of the PJ that there were no other viable prints and no evidence of forcing shutters or windows being opened except her own prints that ware consistent with opening the window? Remember they (the Mccann friends including David Payne) all said shutters were forced overnight after Madeleine's disappearance then when they found this could clearly be disproved they changed that story.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 11.08.11 7:49

@ROSA wrote:


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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 11.08.11 8:25

@solva wrote:The person who opened the window from inside may have been standing on the floor at the end of the bed. The window can be opened without climbing on the bed.
[url=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto7.jpg
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto7.jpg[/quote[/url]]

Unless Kate has very long arms, how could she have pushed the RH pane of glass all the way to the left without kneeling on the bed? Perhaps she opened the lock with her right hand and then used her LH to slide it all the way to her left !!!

Yes, that's it.

Thank you solva, you have single handedly helped me work my way through her actions logically.
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was it locked?

Post by ROSA on 11.08.11 23:35

Philomna McCann: They were going back to check into a locked apartment, where they had left their kids sleeping, you know. They're good parents; they tried so hard to have kids. They've got three beautiful children that they absolutely dote on.
a fat lie?
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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 11.08.11 23:59

That was made even easier because it was left UNLOCKED by the McCanns who wanted quick access to the flat from the tapas bar side.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 12.08.11 0:13


Mr Mrs
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Re: The Shutters

Post by jd on 12.08.11 2:11

@ROSA wrote:
@ROSA wrote:



This all looks so obvious that the Mccanns were trying too hard to sell their abduction story and Mark Warner had to make it look more realistic with their comments. But when you think they now have retracted from the shutters story and they were after all closed, you have to ask why did they get the shutters so wrong!!!

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Who pulled the strings?...THE SYMINGTONS..And the Scottish connections...Look no further if you dare
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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 12.08.11 6:22


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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 12.08.11 7:18

@ROSA wrote:Philomna McCann: They were going back to check into a locked apartment, where they had left their kids sleeping, you know. They're good parents; they tried so hard to have kids. They've got three beautiful children that they absolutely dote on.
a fat lie?
i dont think it was 5a the kids was in mccanns say 5a was unlocked
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Me on 12.08.11 8:05

Hello everyone! Been a while!

Locks and shutters you say?? Well i did some work on this for the first question on the rebuttal document (so some of the wording applies to that document), however to avoid any doubt about the shutters and locks let's see what was actually said and done:



SHUTTERS JEMMIED / FORCED OR SIMPLY “OPEN”


OVERVIEW


The story given by the McCann’s to their close
relatives & friends regarding the shutters was wholly different to the
account they gave in their police statements of 4th May 2007.



The accounts given directly to FIVE separate close relatives
/ friends immediately after Madeleine McCann was found to be missing (which was
then subsequently passed through the British media, and in Michelle Thompson’s
case her rogatory statement 01/05/2008) clearly contradicts the first statements
given to the police on the 4th May 2007.



All five relatives / friends (not just Philomena
McCann) were contacted in the early hours or early morning of the 4th
May and were told the following regarding the shutters (before the McCann’s had
made their first police statements):



“been forced”, “jemmied open”, “broken the shutter”, “the shutters
were smashed”, “the shutters of the apartment had been smashed”.



It should be noted that the account by family
friend Jill Renwick for example was given on GMTV at 07:45 on the morning of
the 4th May 2007 several hours BEFORE the McCann’s gave their first
witness statements (11.15 am in Gerry’s case & 2.20 pm in Kate’s) to the
police.



It is safe to conclude therefore that the McCann’s
told 5 separate people between the time of their disappearance and prior to
their police interviews a version of events which subsequently changed in their
police statements.



All five family members / friends quote from
accounts the McCann’s gave them directly.



Highlighted & relevant extracts:


Michelle
Thompson (Kate’s friend) (Rogatory Statement)



Kate
continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit
her in the face as if a door or window was open. When
she entered the children’s room, the window was open,
the blind had been forced and Madeleine had
disappeared.
Kate urged me to call all the close family and to
ask them to pray for Madeleine. My family is catholic and Kate knew this. Even
though I am catholic, I have to admit that Kate has more faith than I. I did
not speak to Gerry that night. (1)



Trish Mccann (Gerry Mccann’s Sister) (Daily
Mirror article 05/05/07)



Trish
said: "When Kate checked, she came out screaming. Maddy had gone. The door was open and the window in the bedroom
and shutters were jemmied open
. Nothing had been
touched and no valuables taken
".

"Kate came screaming back to the group crying, 'They’ve taken her, they’ve
taken her'. Gerry was crying and roaring like a bull."




"They
think someone must have come in the window and gone out the door with her
."(2)






Trish Mccann (Gerry Mccann’s Sister) (The Times Articles 05/05/07)


The
front door was open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been
jemmied open and Madeleine was missing
,” she said. “Nothing had been
touched in the apartment, no valuables taken, no passports. They think someone
must have come in the window and gone out the door with her.” (3)



John
Corner (Family Friend / twins Godparent)(3
Separate Newspaper reports):



She told
me, 'They have broken the shutter on the window and taken my little girl.'


[b]"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their
meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage."
[/b]



"Kate
said the shutters of the room were smashed.
Madeleine was
missing It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to
her. Kate was incredibly upset. I've spoken to her since, and she's still
completely devastated.



"She just told me that Maddy
had been abducted, that the shutters of the apartment had been forced and
someone had taken her." (4)



Jill Renwick Interview To Gmtv 07.45 Am 4th May 2007


Jill
Renwick, a family friend, told GMTV at 7:45am, on the morning of 04 May, that
the distraught parents were certain that Madeline had been abducted. "They
were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour."

She said the parents went out about 8pm, checked on the children at 9pm and
then when they "went back in at 10pm she was gone".

Ms Renwick said: "Poor Kate and Gerry don't know where to turn. She's obviously been taken as she couldn't have
gone out on her own and the shutters had been forced open."


"The shutters had been
broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."


Speaking to the BBC later, Ms Renwick said the McCanns, who had been holidaying
with three other British families, had felt let down by police in Portugal.
"I spoke to them this morning and they said the police had done nothing
overnight and they felt as if they'd been left on their own. They just don't
know where to turn."

However, the manager at the Mark Warner resort, John Hill said the police had
been doing all they could. He said around 60 staff and guests at the complex
had searched until 4.30am while police notified border police, Spanish police
and airports. (5)






LOCKS


OVERVIEW


In the same way that close relatives and friends
were told of the shutters being jemmied many of the same people also stated
that the apartment was locked.



Philomena McCann (Gerry McCann’s
Sister) (This Is London Article 06-05-07)



We think
they were being watched and this was premeditated. Gerry is worried that may
have happened. Some people may ask why
they left the children alone in
the apartment but it was locked. (6)


Philomena McCann (Gerry McCann’s
Sister) (Daily Mail article now removed 04-05-07)



Philomena
McCann, said on 04 May: "Some
people may ask why they left the children alone in the apartment but it was
locked and they had a full view of the front door and they were checking every
half hour.
"(7)



John
Corner (Family Friend
Godparent)(Telegraph Article 05-05-07):



Jon Corner,
a close friend of Mrs. McCann and godparent of the twins, said she telephoned
him in the middle of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out
that Madeleine had been abducted. She told me, 'They have broken the shutter on
the window and taken my little girl.' "They had left the apartment
locked
while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last
time they saw the damage. "First they saw one of the window shutters
had been forced
, and then they saw the door was open and the bed was
empty - and Madeleine was gone.”(8)



Brian Healy Kate McCann’s Father
(Guardian Article 05-05-08)



Mark
Warner, the holiday firm which runs the luxury resort, claimed last night there
was no sign of a break in at the ground floor apartment overlooking the sea.
But Brian Healy, Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his
son-in-law had phoned him shortly after returning to the apartment from a
nearby restaurant to find Madeleine had disappeared.

"Gerry
told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were
jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from
the chalet. The door was open
."(9)



Patricia Cameron (Gerry Mccann’s
Sister) ( Liverpool Echo Article 06-05-07)



The
McCanns made sure the toddler, who turns four next week, and her two-year-old
twin brother and sister, Sean and Amelie, were sound asleep, and that their apartment was locked up.

But between their checks at 9.30pm and 10pm the apartment was broken into
through a window and Madeleine was taken, according to the young girl’s aunt,
Trish Cameron. (10)



Witness Statements / Madeleine Book By Kate McCann Regarding
Shutters



OVERVIEW


Through
the book Madeleine and the statements of members of the “Tapas 9” group
information is provided that several people at the time of the disappearance
attempted to open or force the shutters.



Gerry McCann Witness Statement
(10-05-07)



“Then he closed the shutters,
made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do,
much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the
inside.”



Madeleine Book – Kate McCann
(Published April 2011)



On page 73
of the book “Madeleine” By Kate McCann she states:



"In
the children's room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing
outside, he made the sickening discovery that is could be raised from this
side, too, not just from inside as we'd thought."



Members of
the Tapas 7 also made statements regarding the shutters. Diane Webster claims
that when she arrived at the apartment the window was closed and she herself
attempted to open the shutters from the outside:



Diane Webster Police Statement
(10-05-07)



However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went
outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise
the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.
Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the
window would have been closed.



Diane Webster Roagtory Statement
(11-04-08)



4078
"It’s all, you know, even at that early stage there wasn’t a lot more that
you were able to say. Did you check the blind at Kate’s apartment on the window
that obviously the relevant window? Did you go out and check the blind?"
Reply "Oh the shutter?"
4078 "Yeah, sorry."
Reply "Yeah I
mean I can remember going out there and in fact there was me and somebody else,
I don’t know who else there was, to see if it could be raised from, from
outside, I didn’t spend too long err trying it."

4078 "And were
you able to?"

Reply "I think, I
think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted
.
But everybody was in such a panic really."







Rachel
Oldfield in her rogatory statement claims that when she was at the apartment
Kate, whilst outside with Fiona:



Rachel Oldfield Roagtory
Statement (11-04-08)



Rachel
Oldfield confirms that Kate had gone outside to lift the shutters:



Reply
"Erm but I mean I remember kind of standing near the window with Kate and
Fiona, erm so but I mean I don’t remember the specifics of anyone actually
saying to me that, I think it was just sort of a general, Kate and Fi were sort
of milling around outside the apartment, outside her and Kate’s apartment and
cos I think at, either at that point or perhaps it was later in the night, erm
you know Kate had
tried to see whether you could lift the shutters from the outside, erm but
which you could and they would stay up, erm so I think,
I don’t
think anyone told me specifically that the windows were open and the shutters
were up, it was just erm you know kind of listening to conversations and seeing
Kate and Fiona, erm sort of outside the apartment".
1578 "Did you at any point yourself see the shutters up and the window
open"?
Reply "Yes".
1578 "When was that"?
Reply "When, when Fi and Kate were outside, erm you know






The McCann’s Witness Statements Contradictions Regarding The Locked
Doors



OVERVIEW


In direct contradiction to the claim made by the
rebuttal document that “the McCann’s didn’t change their story”, Gerry &
Kate’s account to the police did in fact change.



In his statement of the 4th May 2007 (at
11.20 am) he said when he visited the apartment at 21.05 he entered by the
front door and that it was locked.



He also says in the same statement that when Kate
McCann entered the apartment at 10.00 pm to discover the girl missing she
entered via the front door.



Kate McCann in her statement of 4th May
2007 (at 2.20 pm) states she entered by the sliding patio door NOT by the front
door using her key.



Kate McCann also says in this statement that the
previous visitor to the apartment, Matthew Oldfield, entered by the patio door.
Oldfield does not mention entering by the patio door in his statement of the 4th
May but does mention it in his statement of the 10th May 2007.



In his statement of the 10th May Gerry changes his story and says that
despite what he has said previously they left the apartment on the evening of
the 3rd May by the rear sliding patio door and it was unlikely the
front door was locked.



Gerry
McCann Witness Statement 04-05-07



In his first statement to the police Gerry clearly
states that the door was locked and entered by the door.



At about 21.05 the
witness came to the Club, entered the
room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's
bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine
. He then went
to the WC, where he remained for a few moments. (11)



Later
in the statement Gerry mentions that Kate entered by the side door:



At
10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right
away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open
, the window was
also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that
opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was
closed.
(11)


Kate
McCann Witness Statement 04-05-07



Kate
McCann’s first statement to the police on the 4th May 2007 states
that she entered the apartment by the side door which was “closed but not
locked” at 10.00pm. Yet Gerry’s statement given on the same day says she used
her key to enter the front door.



Around 9.30pm was
the time the interviewee should have gone to see her children, but her friend
Matt (a member of the group) had just done a check in his apartment then gone
to the interviewee's. He had entered the apartment by a glass sliding side
door, that was always unlocked and once inside had not gone into the children's
bedroom. He only looked through the door, and did not hear any noise. He went
back to the restaurant and said that everything was fine.

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to
check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was
closed but not locked, as she said before
. (13)



Gerry
McCann Witness Statement 10-05-07



In
this statement some six days later the story given in the witness statement of
the 4th May 2007 has changed and Gerry now says:



Despite what he
said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left
with KATE by the rear door which he consequently closed but did not lock given
that that is only possible from the inside. Referring to the front door, while
he is certain that it was closed it is unlikely that it was locked as [because]
they had left by the rear door. (12)



Then in relation to entering the apartment for his check at 21.15
he claims he entered via the patio door directly contradicting his statement of
the 4th May 2007:



He
walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to
slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the
children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which
he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up
to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings.
Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact
with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were
deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how
he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom. Everything else
was normal, the shutters, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only
being the light that came from the living room.





STATEMENT
GIVEN BY JOHN HILL OF MARK WARNER RESORTS 04-05-07



OVERVIEW


Contrary
to the assertion by the rebuttal document the statement form John Hill was in
the press BEFORE Kate McCann gave her first statement at 14.20 on 4th
May 2007. In an article posted on the 4th May 2007 at 12.18 pm John
Hill states to a reporter:





Mr Hill said that
despite the report by a family friend that the shutters to the couple's
apartment were broken, there was no sign that anyone had forced their way in
while the McCanns ate at the tapas restaurant 200 yards away
. (14)



The statement from Warner staff regarding no break in was reported before Kate McCann gave her witness statement and may explain why her account differs to that of Gerry.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by ROSA on 12.08.11 8:54

That is alot of info Me thumbsup but i dont see why Philo says it was locked
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