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The Shutters

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Re: The Shutters

Post by plebgate on 14.06.13 9:17

@ROSA wrote:Philomna McCann: They were going back to check into a locked apartment, where they had left their kids sleeping, you know. They're good parents; they tried so hard to have kids. They've got three beautiful children that they absolutely dote on.
a fat lie?

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 14.06.13 9:19

It's clearly a family trait!
 
I don't think that Philomena is the biggest liar in the family - well, apart from in size.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Five Star on 08.01.14 23:17

Could someone who knows about these shutters chime in please?  ....
It would be a lot quicker than me reading all the threads to find the info I need!



Shutters were broken, then fixed by "shutterman"  ....were his finger prints, dna or whatever found on them? 

Did someone clean them after they were fixed?  ...maybe even  cleaned by "shutterman" after fixing them?


Sorry if i'm a few years behind you lot again!!  It would not be the first time!   big grin
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Re: The Shutters

Post by PeterMac on 08.01.14 23:22

Wrong shutters.
McCann parent's bedroom broken and mended - ALLEGEDLY
Even Lazzeri of the Sun got this spectacularly wrong.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Five Star on 08.01.14 23:27

Another Ozzy moment!!  tehehehe.....
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Re: The Shutters

Post by wills on 22.03.17 22:08

Scenario. I tell my friends I am going up the road to scratch someones car. I say give me 15 minutes then report it. However when I go up the road to where the target car is, my friend Jez is walking toward me. Blast, he stops to chat. 15 minutes tick by and Jez is still giving idle chat. Time is up and my mates down the road think I have accomplished my mission and report it worldwide. The fact that no one had a watch or phone with them isn't really important. Police arrive to inspect the damaged car, but it isn't damaged. Oh dear, but my mates weren't to know that Jez had messed the plan up. So to save face I try to quickly scratch the car, but miserably fail to cause the damage that my mates had reported. Car/shutters. Jez had messed it all up.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by JRP on 22.03.17 22:23

@wills wrote:Scenario. I tell my friends I am going up the road to scratch someones car. I say give me 15 minutes then report it. However when I go up the road to where the target car is, my friend Jez is walking toward me. Blast, he stops to chat. 15 minutes tick by and Jez is still giving idle chat. Time is up and my mates down the road think I have accomplished my mission and report it worldwide. The fact that no one had a watch or phone with them isn't really important. Police arrive to inspect the damaged car, but it isn't damaged. Oh dear, but my mates weren't to know that Jez had messed the plan up. So to save face I try to quickly scratch the car, but miserably fail to cause the damage that my mates had reported. Car/shutters. Jez had messed it all up.

Kate McCanns father said that Gerry told him the shutters were jemmied, so that's like setting out to scratch a car, getting delayed by Jez, but still telling your father-in-law you scratched a car.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by wills on 22.03.17 22:40

Then it begs the question, why say the shutters were jemmied when they clearly weren't? The Tapas group in parts went along with that because they were told that was the case. Imo, that is what they believed or were told was the case. It was such an obvious mistruth that they must have been told it as fact.No one in their right mind would report this back home unless they believed the shutters had been jemmied or tampered with. It would take the police just minutes to establish it wasn't true. So they must have understood that it had been played about with. Perhaps Mr. in all his haste thought he had done a quick convincing job.But obviously not.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by JRP on 22.03.17 22:45

I don't know the answer to why family members said the shutters were jemmied, or the window was forced. His sister Philomena said the doors were locked also, which the McCanns said they had left open.
In all, it's a bit of a mystery.

Unless of course, they were told earlier in the week.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 22.03.17 22:49

Chapter 1: Changes in Story
Video of PeterMac testing shutters of McCann's apartment in Praia da Luz


Changes to the original story

Changing the initial version of events, especially concerning a report of a missing child, is a classic ‘red flag’ warning to police investigators to query both, or all, versions of events in great detail. Indeed when presented with changes the Police may begin to focus on that aspect, to the exclusion of the original report.



First reports

In the 24 hours following the report of Madeleine’s disappearance the following family members and close friends reported almost identical stories to the press

They are of course hearsay as to the state of the shutters and window, but they are direct evidence of what they were told by the McCanns.

That is a crucial difference.


Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said: "They last checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut. Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...” [1]

Brian Healy -
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open." [2]

Jon Corner -
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted. Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her. [3]

Jill (or Gill) Renwick -
a family friend told GMTV the McCanns were certain that Madeleine has been abducted. "They were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine," she said.” [4]

Observation
1 In all four cases it is reported that the shutters were broken open, smashed, or jemmied.
2 Three of the reports include that the door was open, or hanging open.

As one commentator, Antony Sharples writing under the name John Blacksmith, percipiently noted:

“What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else. These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.” [5]



First change of story.
This change relates to the shutters’ being damaged

The first police statements were taken during the morning of 4th May 2007, by which time the story had already changed in regard to the shutters having been damaged. Now they are merely “raised”.

It is also notable that all reference to the door being open, or hanging open has been quietly dropped.

Gerald McCann, statement, 4 May 2007: 11:15 a.m.
“. . . Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition. . .
“. . . At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open. The side door that opens into the living room, which as said earlier, was never locked, was closed. [6]

Kate McCann, statement, 4 May 2007 2:15 p.m.
“. . . At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. [7]

Observation
1 The door is now ignored
2 The McCanns and two of their friends were taken from Praia da Luz at around 10 am for the statements to be taken. [8]
Gerry was first. He was interviewed alone. When his statement was completed Kate followed.
Unusually Gerry was permitted to remain in the interview room, whilst Kate was interviewed and her statement was taken. [9]
He was permitted to sit behind her and she states that from time to time he “would place a hand on my shoulder or give me a reassuring squeeze”. [10]
Further observation
3 Physical contact of this sort may be reassuring. It can also be a very effective method of communication.
During the same morning, whilst those two statements were being taken the PJ started the forensic examination of the apartment, including of the shutters, and took photos.

It is clear that the shutters had not been broken, smashed, or jemmied open. [11]

Meanwhile other people with a knowledge of the resort were giving evidence.

John Hill Mr Hill said that despite the report by a family friend that the shutters to the couple's apartment were broken, there was no sign that anyone had forced their way in while the McCanns ate at the tapas restaurant 200 yards away. [12]
"It's still questionable as to whether it's abduction," [13]

Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the investigation, later confided in British former Chief Inspector Albert Kirby that neither the windows nor their shutters had been tampered with.
Mr Kirby told The Mail on Sunday: "
I had a very interesting chat with the officer in charge. The window shutters are not an issue. Their mechanism makes them almost impossible to open. The door was left unlocked. They did that every night.” [14]

Photos exist of the forensic scientist from the PJ examining the shutters. It is clear that the shutters are in perfect condition. [15]

A short video clip of an attempt to open the shutters from outside may also be seen on YouTube. In this it is clear that the shutters jam into the housing above the window, and do not remain in the raised position once released. [16]





Second change of story

This concerns the point of entry of Gerry and Kate into the apartment

In the second statement, made on 10 May, Dr Gerald McCann changed his story for a second time, this time in relation to his point of entry.

“He is certain that, before leaving home, the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the shutters closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. Asked, he mentions that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, therefore, without a light being lit in the living room or in the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced. Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door”. [17]

Observation
This brings his version into line with that of Kate’s statement of 4th May, and incidentally makes it more compatible with the first version given by Dr Matthew Oldfield.
“ That the door through which he entered the apartment was closed but not locked. That he doesn't know if it is usual for Madeleine's parents to leave the door closed but not locked in so far as that door is visible from the restaurant.” [18]

It also brings it in line with the statement by John Hill [supra, 14]



Third Change of story

This concerns the first acceptance that the window was not the point of entry.

On 18 October 2007 the Dispatches programme aired “Searching for Madeleine”. In that programme it was effectively proved that there was no way anybody could break into the apartment and leave no forensic trace or damage to the lightweight aluminium shutters, which are covered with a fine coating of polyurethane paint which marks extremely easily.

David Barclay (Former Head of Physical Evidence UK National Crime and Operations Faculty)
“We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging, but it is difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters from the outside without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible.” [19]

Important Note: The statements detailed above were not made available for examination and comparison until the case was shelved in July 2008. What follows is therefore a significant announcement, as it was placed into the public domain BEFORE the public at large were made aware of the previous contradictions and changes in stance.

During the week following the Dispatches programme the McCanns’ official spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, announced that the McCanns now reversed their previous stance on the break-in story.
“THE spokesman for the family of Madeleine McCann has reversed a statement made in the early days of the search for the missing child. . . However, in the early part of the hunt, friends and family members told journalists that the shutter on the apartment where the McCanns were staying had been broken. . . "There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell.
"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily.” [20]

David Barclay repeated this view on “Madeleine McCann - The Mystery,” by Sky News 24.12.07 when he said,
“I think it is impossible for someone to get in and out of that window without leaving a forensic trace . . .” [21]

The McCanns’ change of view was reinforced 18 months later by the McCanns themselves, on their “Find Madeleine” web site, where they admit the force of some arguments.

“Lisbon 14th January 2010
There are few points which have been raised in the last few days which I would like to address specifically:

Abduction theory: For us, there is only the abduction theory possible because we were not involved in Madeleine's disappearance and we know Madeleine did not wander off by herself. It is obvious and right that the police should consider other theories initially.

The window: I described to the police officers exactly what I found that night, as it was and is highly relevant and I knew that every little detail could be helpful in finding my daughter which is our only aim. The window which is a ground floor window was completely open and is large enough for a person to easily climb through it. Whether it had been opened for this purpose remains unknown. It could of course have been opened by the perpetrator when inside the apartment as a potential escape route or left open as a 'red herring'. [22]

Observation
1 Kate refers to the “abduction” as a theory. Not as a proven fact.
2 Kate described in her statement an open window and wide open curtains. She described in interviews and in the ‘truthful’ book an open window and completely closed curtains.

http://whatreallyhappenedtomadeleinemccann.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/chapter-1-changes-in-story.html
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Re: The Shutters

Post by JRP on 22.03.17 22:53

Thanks Get'em

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Captain_Pugwash on 23.03.17 12:25

Who in their right mind is going to break into an apartment in a resort during the early evening period. All it takes is for someone to walk past , see them trying to climb through a window and call the Police to report suspicious activity. Burglars are not that daft. Then to cap it they kill one of the children and run off with the body?
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Verdi on 23.03.17 12:32

@Captain_Pugwash wrote:Who in their right mind is going to break into an apartment in a resort during the early evening period.
Moot point.  There was no break-in, there was no abduction.

Move on.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Captain_Pugwash on 23.03.17 12:37

@Verdi wrote:
@Captain_Pugwash wrote:Who in their right mind is going to break into an apartment in a resort during the early evening period.
Moot point.  There was no break-in, there was no abduction.

Move on.
Well Scotland Yard milked this theory half to death. I would love to ask them why? Not that I would get an honest answer IMHO.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Verdi on 23.03.17 12:42

@Captain_Pugwash wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Captain_Pugwash wrote:Who in their right mind is going to break into an apartment in a resort during the early evening period.
Moot point.  There was no break-in, there was no abduction.

Move on.
Well Scotland Yard milked this theory half to death. I would love to ask them why? Not that I would get an honest answer IMHO.
Did they?  I was given to understand that Operation Grange were not going to provide a running commentary on their investigation. 

Are you sure it wasn't a source close to the family?

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Captain_Pugwash on 23.03.17 13:24

@Verdi wrote:
@Captain_Pugwash wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Captain_Pugwash wrote:Who in their right mind is going to break into an apartment in a resort during the early evening period.
Moot point.  There was no break-in, there was no abduction.

Move on.
Well Scotland Yard milked this theory half to death. I would love to ask them why? Not that I would get an honest answer IMHO.
Did they?  I was given to understand that Operation Grange were not going to provide a running commentary on their investigation. 

Are you sure it wasn't a source close to the family?
I'm only going by the media who seem transfixed by this idea of a bungled burlary. Somebody somewhere has been bought off or got at in some other way.  The only chance of ever finding the truth is from one of the group speaking out independently, on a deathbed perhaps?
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Re: The Shutters

Post by JRP on 23.03.17 13:49

Having gone on Holiday with 3 children, and by Thursday evening only having 2 left, the dilemma was clear. So an abduction story was hatched.
Of course, to make the story believable it had to be full of drama. The burglar entered by an open door, possibly hid in the room while Gerry checked, and left by the window. When Kate arrived for her check, the curtains whooshed, the bedroom door almost blew shut... Madeleine had gone!
But like most fiction, you can only suspend reality so far. The burglar couldn't fit threw the window, the window was never forced or the shutter jemmied.
So the story changed, apart from the curtains, they still wooosh, and door it still blows almost shut in the breeze, but what the heck... it's to late to change that part, everyone heard it.

I think the jemmied window story, told by family and friends was told because the McCanns thought the Portuguese police would believe them. After all, they're English, and English doctors no less, so what's not to believe. 
They told their incredible story as though it was credible because they'd never experienced a situation like this. But police have, they're used to dealing with liars, so the story changes and back fitted to suit the questions.

The Mc's expected their story to be believed, they expected the police to go off looking for their child, the didn't expect the level of detection that ensued. They didn't expect to be suspects.
That arrogance has now cost them dearly.

And here we are discussing shutters, and how does a person fit through one without the risk of someone seeing them.
The answer is... they don't. It never happened. It's not possible. It's all complete bull poop!

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 23.03.17 14:52

@JRP wrote:Having gone on Holiday with 3 children, and by Thursday evening only having 2 left, the dilemma was clear. So an abduction story was hatched.
Don't you mean Monday evening? winkwink
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Verdi on 23.03.17 15:52

@Captain_Pugwash wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Captain_Pugwash wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Captain_Pugwash wrote:Who in their right mind is going to break into an apartment in a resort during the early evening period.
Moot point.  There was no break-in, there was no abduction.

Move on.
Well Scotland Yard milked this theory half to death. I would love to ask them why? Not that I would get an honest answer IMHO.
Did they?  I was given to understand that Operation Grange were not going to provide a running commentary on their investigation. 

Are you sure it wasn't a source close to the family?
I'm only going by the media who seem transfixed by this idea of a bungled burlary. Somebody somewhere has been bought off or got at in some other way.  The only chance of ever finding the truth is from one of the group speaking out independently, on a deathbed perhaps?
Beg pardon - when you said "Scotland Yard milked this theory to death", I thought you meant Scotland Yard milked this theory to death.  So it was a source close to the family, as I anticipated.

The UK press said a lot of things that have proved to be inaccurate.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by JRP on 23.03.17 15:53

@Get'em Well, you wouldn't want to ruin a holiday would you  flag

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Phoebe on 25.03.17 11:44

In Diane Webster's statement 11/5/07 it says "She wants to stress that she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside and found it would be impossible for her". Why were her fingerprints not found? Was she ever asked this?
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Re: The Shutters

Post by JohnyT on 25.03.17 13:10

Why hasn't some investigating body asked......"....look the shutters, were they jemmied or not!".............
        Surely this is VERY basic policing?!
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Verdi on 25.03.17 13:15

@JohnyT wrote:Why hasn't some investigating body asked......"....look the shutters, were they jemmied or not!".............
        Surely this is VERY basic policing?!
JohnyT
They did and they weren't.  It's all in the PJ files - indeed as early as Friday 4th May 2007!

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 25.03.17 13:21

@JohnyT wrote:Why hasn't some investigating body asked......"....look the shutters, were they jemmied or not!".............
        Surely this is VERY basic policing?!
JohnyT



Here's an investigating body doing some very basic policing winkwink
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Captain_Pugwash on 25.03.17 13:32

It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of children who go missing, the cause is down to the direct actions of their parents/guardians. Now look at the fact that the same parents lied about the shutters being "jemmied open" to several people at that. This was immediately picked up by the PJ investigators. This question has been asked time and again but here goes another airing:
Do you LIE to the Police investigating your daughter's disappearance to aid the investigation, or do you LIE to the Police if you desperately want something covered up? Answers on a postcard please, I know what mine is but its trivial really.
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