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The Shutters

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Daisy on 14.02.12 16:40

Here's what former occupants (stayed the week before the McCann's) of 5A have to say about the shutters. I'll take their word over a bunch of imbeciles that have never been anywhere near the apartment never mind inside it!

Statement of Saleigh
Gordon:
“The bedroom shutters made a lot of noise and I find it difficult
to understand that opening them would go un-noticed. The bedroom overlooked the
parking area and was also overlooked by other apartments from which I think
that if anyone had opened the shutters from outside, somebody would have
noticed”



Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon: “We used to open the shutters during the
day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when
we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing
them.”

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 14.02.12 16:45

Yes, all gone over numerous times in this thread, but this from the NOW investigation when they went into apartment 5a and checked the shutters for themselves..............

The stillness and silence of the apartment now is just as it would have been after the McCanns left the children asleep in bed that fateful night.

And our team heard for themselves how much noise an intruder would have made— reinforcing the theory that this was not an opportunistic snatch but carefully planned.

When the bedroom shutter is opened by a pull-cord it makes a loud piercing creak that could easily have woken the youngsters or alerted Pamela Fenn, the woman living upstairs.

This is crucial evidence as it shows the difficulty of entering the property by the window

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
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Re: The Shutters

Post by C.Edwards on 14.02.12 16:46

@Daisy wrote:Here's what former occupants (stayed the week before the McCann's) of 5A have to say about the shutters. I'll take their word over a bunch of imbeciles that have never been anywhere near the apartment never mind inside it!

Statement of Saleigh
Gordon:
“The bedroom shutters made a lot of noise and I find it difficult
to understand that opening them would go un-noticed. The bedroom overlooked the
parking area and was also overlooked by other apartments from which I think
that if anyone had opened the shutters from outside, somebody would have
noticed”



Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon: “We used to open the shutters during the
day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when
we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing
them.”

Where's this sourced from please Daisy?

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Invinoveritas on 14.02.12 16:59

sigh!

fortunately, having lived on the European continent for most of my working life and having lived in flats and houses with these roller shutters where the roller shutter is built into the lintel above the window, I can refute what bonny&co. are typing, it is not possible to open the shutters from outside, it just doesn't work! The shutter has to be rolled/pulled up from inside the room using an electric, or in the case of the Mccann's flat a manual tape, the inertial reel on the inside is spring loaded to prevent the shutter falling back. If someone had attempted to raise the shutter in some way through jacking up or even using a jemmy then there would have been traces of the action on the window-sill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_shutter

YATYK seems to have her underwear in a twist

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Daisy on 14.02.12 17:03

@C.Edwards wrote:
@Daisy wrote:Here's what former occupants (stayed the week before the McCann's) of 5A have to say about the shutters. I'll take their word over a bunch of imbeciles that have never been anywhere near the apartment never mind inside it!

Statement of Saleigh
Gordon:
“The bedroom shutters made a lot of noise and I find it difficult
to understand that opening them would go un-noticed. The bedroom overlooked the
parking area and was also overlooked by other apartments from which I think
that if anyone had opened the shutters from outside, somebody would have
noticed”



Statement by Paul Anthony Gordon: “We used to open the shutters during the
day and would close them again at night. The shutters made a lot of noise when
we closed them. They have an internal cord as mechanism for opening and closing
them.”

Where's this sourced from please Daisy?

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t8279-statements-from-former-apt-5a-occupants

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Re: The Shutters

Post by rainbow-fairy on 14.02.12 19:42

My my, Pat Brown's visit is really rattling some cages eh? Methinks her 'Picture Tells A Thousand Words' has stirred up a viper's nest... Wink

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Re: The Shutters

Post by jd on 14.02.12 20:59

@Invinoveritas wrote: it is not possible to open the shutters from outside, it just doesn't work! The shutter has to be rolled/pulled up from inside the room using an electric, or in the case of the Mccann's flat a manual tape, the inertial reel on the inside is spring loaded to prevent the shutter falling back. If someone had attempted to raise the shutter in some way through jacking up or even using a jemmy then there would have been traces of the action on the window-sill.

I can totally back you up on this Invinoveritas which I know from experience many times. And if trying to use a jack or something it would rip the shutters and leave permanent substantial damage to them, and how very noisy they all are. Any Portuguese or Spaniard will tell the same. Anyone who says otherwise are just talking rubbish, go to Portugal or Spain and find out for yourselves to people trying to fool others into thinking it is possible, well it damn right isn't possible....FACT

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Re: The Shutters

Post by aquila on 14.02.12 21:14

@jd wrote:
@Invinoveritas wrote: it is not possible to open the shutters from outside, it just doesn't work! The shutter has to be rolled/pulled up from inside the room using an electric, or in the case of the Mccann's flat a manual tape, the inertial reel on the inside is spring loaded to prevent the shutter falling back. If someone had attempted to raise the shutter in some way through jacking up or even using a jemmy then there would have been traces of the action on the window-sill.

I can totally back you up on this Invinoveritas which I know from experience many times. And if trying to use a jack or something it would rip the shutters and leave permanent damage to them, and how very noisy they all are. Any Portuguese or Spaniard will tell the same. Anyone who says otherwise are just talking rubbish, go to Portugal or Spain and find out for yourselves

At the risk of being accused of being pro-mc, I have to disagree here about it not being possible to open the shutters. I had the exact same shutters and broke into my house without the assistance of any type of tool and without damaging the shutters. I'd locked myself out and did this twice. What it DID do was cause a lot of noise because the manual tape on the inside jammed and there's a lot of pulling up and dragging down and banging. It also took a LOT of time to get them around 18 inches from their housing, enough space for me to open the patio doors (not the windows in the case of Madeleine) that I'd left open on the inside and crawl through the gap. I was also burgled twice by people who opened the shutters without a problem and without damaging them.

It's the TIME element that bothers me. Given that the window was visible to others (and latterly we learn the lichen on the window cill was undisturbed) that only leads me to believe this could not have happened.

I think this would be a good thing for Pat Brown to test on the shutters.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Nina on 14.02.12 22:25

@aquila wrote:
@jd wrote:
@Invinoveritas wrote: it is not possible to open the shutters from outside, it just doesn't work! The shutter has to be rolled/pulled up from inside the room using an electric, or in the case of the Mccann's flat a manual tape, the inertial reel on the inside is spring loaded to prevent the shutter falling back. If someone had attempted to raise the shutter in some way through jacking up or even using a jemmy then there would have been traces of the action on the window-sill.

I can totally back you up on this Invinoveritas which I know from experience many times. And if trying to use a jack or something it would rip the shutters and leave permanent damage to them, and how very noisy they all are. Any Portuguese or Spaniard will tell the same. Anyone who says otherwise are just talking rubbish, go to Portugal or Spain and find out for yourselves

At the risk of being accused of being pro-mc, I have to disagree here about it not being possible to open the shutters. I had the exact same shutters and broke into my house without the assistance of any type of tool and without damaging the shutters. I'd locked myself out and did this twice. What it DID do was cause a lot of noise because the manual tape on the inside jammed and there's a lot of pulling up and dragging down and banging. It also took a LOT of time to get them around 18 inches from their housing, enough space for me to open the patio doors (not the windows in the case of Madeleine) that I'd left open on the inside and crawl through the gap. I was also burgled twice by people who opened the shutters without a problem and without damaging them.

It's the TIME element that bothers me. Given that the window was visible to others (and latterly we learn the lichen on the window cill was undisturbed) that only leads me to believe this could not have happened.

I think this would be a good thing for Pat Brown to test on the shutters.

We live in Spain and have shutters. I have tried alone to open them, just couldn't raise them more than an inch at the side, so hubby went to the other side and we tried together. With the help of two car jacks we raised in turn each side and propped with a brick, after well over half an hour we had raised to about a foot, propped up of course with bricks. By now the weight of the shutter was so great we risked either a hernia or a heart attack.

Maybe shutters are now much lighter, our house is about 30 years old so they are not so lightweight, and I think the apartments are not so very new so I imagine they are also heavy.

Also we were just experimenting to see if it could be done. We were not rushing and there were two of us.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by aquila on 14.02.12 22:33

@Nina wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@jd wrote:
@Invinoveritas wrote: it is not possible to open the shutters from outside, it just doesn't work! The shutter has to be rolled/pulled up from inside the room using an electric, or in the case of the Mccann's flat a manual tape, the inertial reel on the inside is spring loaded to prevent the shutter falling back. If someone had attempted to raise the shutter in some way through jacking up or even using a jemmy then there would have been traces of the action on the window-sill.

I can totally back you up on this Invinoveritas which I know from experience many times. And if trying to use a jack or something it would rip the shutters and leave permanent damage to them, and how very noisy they all are. Any Portuguese or Spaniard will tell the same. Anyone who says otherwise are just talking rubbish, go to Portugal or Spain and find out for yourselves

At the risk of being accused of being pro-mc, I have to disagree here about it not being possible to open the shutters. I had the exact same shutters and broke into my house without the assistance of any type of tool and without damaging the shutters. I'd locked myself out and did this twice. What it DID do was cause a lot of noise because the manual tape on the inside jammed and there's a lot of pulling up and dragging down and banging. It also took a LOT of time to get them around 18 inches from their housing, enough space for me to open the patio doors (not the windows in the case of Madeleine) that I'd left open on the inside and crawl through the gap. I was also burgled twice by people who opened the shutters without a problem and without damaging them.

It's the TIME element that bothers me. Given that the window was visible to others (and latterly we learn the lichen on the window cill was undisturbed) that only leads me to believe this could not have happened.

I think this would be a good thing for Pat Brown to test on the shutters.

We live in Spain and have shutters. I have tried alone to open them, just couldn't raise them more than an inch at the side, so hubby went to the other side and we tried together. With the help of two car jacks we raised in turn each side and propped with a brick, after well over half an hour we had raised to about a foot, propped up of course with bricks. By now the weight of the shutter was so great we risked either a hernia or a heart attack.

Maybe shutters are now much lighter, our house is about 30 years old so they are not so lightweight, and I think the apartments are not so very new so I imagine they are also heavy.

Nina, do you have the ribbon mechanism inside the house? Mine was a pain in the bum. It even made a noise inside the house. My shutters were newer than yours and mine were in Greece.

Also we were just experimenting to see if it could be done. We were not rushing and there were two of us.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Nina on 14.02.12 22:50

Hi Aquila, yes our shutters have a strap inside just to the right of each window or door shutter. The racket is, well a racket when opening or closing, and even when functioning well they are heavy to operate.

Imo I have never believed the shutter story, nor the going through the window opening without damage and evidence of brushing the sides or sill.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by aquila on 14.02.12 22:56

[quote="Nina"]Hi Aquila, yes our shutters have a strap inside just to the right of each window or door shutter. The racket is, well a racket when opening or closing, and even when functioning well they are heavy to operate.

Imo I have never believed the shutter story, nor the going through the window opening without damage and evidence of brushing the sides or sill.[/quote]

I don't believe it either.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by jd on 14.02.12 23:37

None of us believe this is true. All I can say is from my own experiences from over 20 years of going to Spain many many times and having very close friends there, and knowing their apartments and shutters etc extremely well, and last August made a point of double checking with their shutters if they could be jemmied up from the outside and none of them can and Spanish people feel so secure going out, that in the hot summer they leave the windows behind the shutters open as they know you can't open the shutters from the outside...not without some sort of hydraulic jack which would draw everyones attention. These apartments are so close and you always hear when just opening and closing them in a normal way using the inside chord. Anyway, the mccanns shutters is just a fairytale and why they made it point number one on Maddies sticker book (9pm 'All shutters down'), only later to admit that actually it was the patio door that was unlocked!

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Re: The Shutters

Post by T4two on 15.02.12 8:14

@jd wrote:None of us believe this is true. All I can say is from my own experiences from over 20 years of going to Spain many many times and having very close friends there, and knowing their apartments and shutters etc extremely well, and last August made a point of double checking with their shutters if they could be jemmied up from the outside and none of them can and Spanish people feel so secure going out, that in the hot summer they leave the windows behind the shutters open as they know you can't open the shutters from the outside...not without some sort of hydraulic jack which would draw everyones attention. These apartments are so close and you always hear when just opening and closing them in a normal way using the inside chord. Anyway, the mccanns shutters is just a fairytale and why they made it point number one on Maddies sticker book (9pm 'All shutters down'), only later to admit that actually it was the patio door that was unlocked!

The jemmied shutter story was conceived to immediately convince the audience back home with only a brief telephone call to do it in, that an abduction had taken place. Judging by the speed with which the story hit the headlines the next day and various people in high places snapped into action - a successful ploy. Unfortunately the plan was flawed, because being British, they had no idea how this kind of shutter works, but actually it did not matter in the slightest. This is because they only used the old third party trick to spread the word and so we only have family and friends quoted as saying that they had said that the shutter had been jemmied or smashed - they themselves are not on record as having said it. The patio door left unlocked is also a fairytale which they admitted to after the police had found no sign of a break in. Now the story is changing to involve the 'abductor' using a duplicate key, so that leaving the patio door unlocked cannot be construed as an act of gross negilgence leading to the 'abduction'. But of course this is as GM would no doubt point out, going back over history and all so incredibly boring. What does it matter how 'the abductor' gained entry to the apartment, the important thing is that he left via the open window. This is the only constant in their story.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by rainbow-fairy on 15.02.12 17:48

As a constant, its not very clever is it? Who in their right mind would enter empty-handed through the patio-doors, then leave, burdened with a three year old, through a small window?

Could anyone confirm or deny for me that the window was 60x60cm? I measured this out in my front room and my 12 year old, who is tiny, would have trouble getting through an aperture that size? I may have read the measurements wrong or got them from a bad source - I can't remember where I saw it now?

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Re: The Shutters

Post by aiyoyo on 15.02.12 18:04

@T4two wrote:
@jd wrote:None of us believe this is true. All I can say is from my own experiences from over 20 years of going to Spain many many times and having very close friends there, and knowing their apartments and shutters etc extremely well, and last August made a point of double checking with their shutters if they could be jemmied up from the outside and none of them can and Spanish people feel so secure going out, that in the hot summer they leave the windows behind the shutters open as they know you can't open the shutters from the outside...not without some sort of hydraulic jack which would draw everyones attention. These apartments are so close and you always hear when just opening and closing them in a normal way using the inside chord. Anyway, the mccanns shutters is just a fairytale and why they made it point number one on Maddies sticker book (9pm 'All shutters down'), only later to admit that actually it was the patio door that was unlocked!

The jemmied shutter story was conceived to immediately convince the audience back home with only a brief telephone call to do it in, that an abduction had taken place. Judging by the speed with which the story hit the headlines the next day and various people in high places snapped into action - a successful ploy. Unfortunately the plan was flawed, because being British, they had no idea how this kind of shutter works, but actually it did not matter in the slightest. This is because they only used the old third party trick to spread the word and so we only have family and friends quoted as saying that they had said that the shutter had been jemmied or smashed - they themselves are not on record as having said it. The patio door left unlocked is also a fairytale which they admitted to after the police had found no sign of a break in. Now the story is changing to involve the 'abductor' using a duplicate key, so that leaving the patio door unlocked cannot be construed as an act of gross negilgence leading to the 'abduction'. But of course this is as GM would no doubt point out, going back over history and all so incredibly boring. What does it matter how 'the abductor' gained entry to the apartment, the important thing is that he left via the open window. This is the only constant in their story.


Err...are you sure they said "he left via the open window"?

How can that be, when then changed the jemmied shutter story?
Of course they did say the shutter is openable from inside ditto the window obviously, but the point is no forensics were left behind of any abductor, except kate's finger prints were on it. So where does that leave their exit point story?
That must be the biggest flaw in their fabricated scripts, and if we laypersons can see it, surely that wont escape the Yard.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Invinoveritas on 15.02.12 18:14

@rainbow-fairy wrote:As a constant, its not very clever is it? Who in their right mind would enter empty-handed through the patio-doors, then leave, burdened with a three year old, through a small window?

Could anyone confirm or deny for me that the window was 60x60cm? I measured this out in my front room and my 12 year old, who is tiny, would have trouble getting through an aperture that size? I may have read the measurements wrong or got them from a bad source - I can't remember where I saw it now?

a bad source I will hazard to say, if you take the distance from floor to sill as 90cms., then the window is larger than 60X60, also, the window should be at least 55% of the width of the room and the minimum height should be at least 1,30 metres above the floor


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Re: The Shutters

Post by T4two on 15.02.12 20:09


aiyoyo : Err...are you sure they said "he left via the open window"?

Quite sure - that's always been their story. The entry method may change from smashed shutter and forced window to unlocked patio door and now to duplicate key but the abductor always leaves via the window. Very clever - climbs out of the window carrying a child and doesn't leave a trace.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 15.02.12 20:21

@T4two wrote:
aiyoyo : Err...are you sure they said "he left via the open window"?

Quite sure - that's always been their story. The entry method may change from smashed shutter and forced window to unlocked patio door and now to duplicate key but the abductor always leaves via the window. Very clever - climbs out of the window carrying a child and doesn't leave a trace.

I'm sure in an interview or article or the book somewhere anyway, Kate said the window might have been left open as a red herring and the abductor went out the front door.
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Re: The Shutters

Post by russiandoll on 21.02.12 16:47

is there a close up photo of the shutter pull cord anywhere? has it been established it was a single cord and not looped like a curtain cord and therefore not a hanging risk for a child?

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Ollie on 21.02.12 18:24

candyfloss wrote:
@T4two wrote:
aiyoyo : Err...are you sure they said "he left via the open window"?

Quite sure - that's always been their story. The entry method may change from smashed shutter and forced window to unlocked patio door and now to duplicate key but the abductor always leaves via the window. Very clever - climbs out of the window carrying a child and doesn't leave a trace.

I'm sure in an interview or article or the book somewhere anyway, Kate said the window might have been left open as a red herring and the abductor went out the front door.

Kate said in her book that ' for a long while we would assume that the abductor had entered and exited through the window of the children's bedroom, but it is equally possible that he used the patio doors or even had a key to the front door. Perhaps he'd come in or gone out via the window, not both; perhaps he hadn't been through it at all, but had opened it to prepare an emergency escape route if needed, or merely to throw investigators off the scent'.

How she can write in her book that he may of come in or gone out the window? They know there was absolutely no evidence to support this.

Have just realised that in the book she says that when Gerry made his check at 9.05pm the door was open more than they had left it and he pulled it back to its original position, then Matt made his check half an hour later but didn't go into the room just listened at the door, definitely not what he said in his statement. Then when Kate made her check at 10.00pm the door was wider open again. They really should of got together to get their story straight.

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Invinoveritas on 21.02.12 18:46

@russiandoll wrote:is there a close up photo of the shutter pull cord anywhere? has it been established it was a single cord and not looped like a curtain cord and therefore not a hanging risk for a child?

I don't think so, the cord is spring loaded, there is no slack in it, it (the cord) is flush to the wall, I think it is highly unlikely that a child could slip and strangle itself behind the cord

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 18:59

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Re: The Shutters

Post by Guest on 21.02.12 19:04

candyfloss wrote:





More pics on link below

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/APARTMENT.htm

I never noticed the chair behind the cots before..was it in there when the alarm was raised ?

Pictures on your link under children's bedroom volum 09
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Re: The Shutters

Post by Daisy on 21.02.12 19:27

@Ollie wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@T4two wrote:
aiyoyo : Err...are you sure they said "he left via the open window"?

Quite sure - that's always been their story. The entry method may change from smashed shutter and forced window to unlocked patio door and now to duplicate key but the abductor always leaves via the window. Very clever - climbs out of the window carrying a child and doesn't leave a trace.

I'm sure in an interview or article or the book somewhere anyway, Kate said the window might have been left open as a red herring and the abductor went out the front door.

Kate said in her book that ' for a long while we would assume that the abductor and entered and exited through the window of the children's bedroom, but it is equally possible that he used the patio doors or even had a key to the front door. Perhaps he'd come in or gone out via the window, not both; perhaps he hadn't been through it at all, but had opened it to prepare an emergency escape route if needed, or merely to throw investigators off the scent'.

How she can write in her book that he may of come in or gone out the window? They know there was absolutely no evidence to support this.

Yikes! Is this true? I've only ever read excerpts of the book, I have it saved on PC but can't stomach the full read. How on earth have they been allowed to sway public opinon like this? Based on what?

I'll be honest, although I admired her spirit I wasn't really hopeful of what Pat Brown could find out after five long years that could aid in solving this mystery (whoops! forgot tis not a mystery!). But I was wrong, one things for sure her profiling in PDL has stirred up mass discussion on both sides and getting folk concentrated on certain aspects. This debate is showing up some very very severe cracks in the abduction theory.
Thanks to the others that have supported Pat in PDL. Y'all know who you are.

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Daisy

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