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Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

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Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.03.11 8:21

Eddie caused 'complications' by his 10 alerts in Praia da Luz, says report:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Sniffer-Dogs-Report-Says-No-Approved-Standards-For-Police-Dogs-Which-Are-Complicating-Some-Probes/Article/201103415959107?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15959107_Sniffer_Dogs%3A_Report_Says_No_Approved_Standards_For_Police_Dogs%2C_Which_Are_Complicating_Some_Probes_

Eddie alerted to the scent of a human corpse at the following 10 locations in Praia da Luz - and nowhere else:

1. McCanns' living room, Flat G5A
2. McCanns' master bedroom, Flat G5A
3. McCanns' veranda, Flat G5A
4. McCanns' garden, Flat G5A
5. One of Dr Kate McCann's clothes
6. Another of Dr Kate McCann's clothes
7. A red T-shirt belonging to one of the children
8. The pink soft toy, 'Cuddle Cat'
9. The floor of the the McCanns' hired Renault Scenic
10. The car key of the McCanns' hired Renault Scenic.
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by aiyoyo on 24.03.11 8:56

The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand
furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to
the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further
investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the
investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."
The govt has shot themselves in the foot with the report.
To the contrary, the above report proves precisely the point ie that the dogs are IN FACT VERY ACCURATE and v. adept at what they're trained for.
The point being : the dogs sniffed out cadaverine regardless!!

Cadaver detecting dog does not discriminate, cadaverine is just that per se, doesnt matter whose it was.
Just goes to show if cadaverine is present Eddie succeeded in sniffing it out without fail.
In the above example cited, it wasnt the dog's fault cadaverine belonged to previous owner of the furniture.

In the mccanns' case are they implying the hired car belong to someone else who died in the car?
OK - What about apt (5a only) and Maddie's and mccanns' personal belongings? Were those second hand from a house where dead occured?

Christ on a bike...why did this report emerge now?
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Guest on 24.03.11 8:56

Report: Sniffer Dogs Hindering Cop Probes

Share Comments7:35am UK, Thursday March 24, 2011

Gerard Tubb, Sky News correspondent



Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.



Sniffer dog Eddie was relieved of his police duties after complicating investigations


The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency says specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

"There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

"Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

The report says the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an enquiry."


There is an urgent need to have national policy on (police sniffer dogs') training, accreditation and deployment.

National Policing Improvement Agency report
"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concludes.

One kidnap investigation is highlighted in the report where dogs tied up valuable police time by detecting human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.

The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.

A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.

But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.



Sniffer dogs hindered the police probe into Shannon Matthew's disappearance


The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.




bigshock

Good grief, I can't believe what I've just read!!! That would be it then. The McCanns apartment must have been full of furniture that had been in a dead persons house previously, as no one else had died there. The dogs are obviously doing what they are trained to do and that is finding death scent.

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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Guest on 24.03.11 9:03

The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News


As aiyoyo says, why has sky asked for this now??
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by aiyoyo on 24.03.11 9:18

Me think the mccanns are preparing for the worst in the upcoming libel.

Brown's gone.....

Socrates' gone...

CM hanging in by a thread...

failed book injunction...

A barking mad portuguese lawyer...

V. little left in the fund...

DESPERATE ...DESPERATE, clutching at straws....the mccanns!
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by aiyoyo on 24.03.11 9:27

I suppose the more pertinent question would be:
why did NPIA feel the need to release that kind of report post Madeleine's disappearance? Coincidence?

Why is NPIA undermining work of Eddie post Madeleine when Eddie had previously handled 200 cases with great success?
Who commissioned NPIA to put out that kind of report at that opportune timing? Would it by chance be same 'officials' CM referered to who'd briefed him in private that the case was treated as 'rare stranger abduction' (CM's words).
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Cheshire Cat on 24.03.11 9:35

From reading the article on Sky News it was the SHANNON investigation where the dogs caused complications (second hand furniture) not Madeleine McCann. this looks like an attempt to associate the Madeleine investigation with a report about a different case.
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Guest on 24.03.11 9:40

@aiyoyo wrote:I suppose the more pertinent question would be:
why did NPIA feel the need to release that kind of report post Madeleine's disappearance? Coincidence?

Why is NPIA undermining work of Eddie post Madeleine when Eddie had previously handled 200 cases with great success? Who commissioned NPIA to put out that kind of report at that opportune timing? Would it by chance be same 'officials' CM referered to who'd briefed him in private that the case was treated as 'rare stranger abduction' (CM's words).


Exactly aiyoyo.
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Guest on 24.03.11 11:18

Some comments on the sky article



Posted by: debbie hunt on March 24, 2011 10:03 AM
The dogs find the scent it is up to the police to uncover the crime.Don't blame the dogs they did their part.Recommend (12)Report this commentPermalink

Posted by: chocadooby on March 24, 2011 9:50 AMGiven the report has been obtained under the freedom of information act perhaps sky can provide a link to it so we can see what it says and compare it to the work of Mr Tubbs.

Recommend (13)Report this commentPermalink


Posted by: tetegtetemmememe on March 24, 2011 9:44 AM
another opportunity to bobby bash, conspiracy theories etc..... where does it say that the police are blaming the dogs, nowhere. it says the npia does. they are not the police. just because the word police appears in their tiltle doesnt make them so.
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Posted by: Calliope on March 24, 2011 9:36 AM
Anyone who has ever entered or watched a scent discrimination exercise in an advanced obedience test, will know that dogs often make mistakes and failing the 'scent' exercise is one of the main reasons for failing the test.Recommend (1)Report this commentPermalink




Posted by: chocadooby on March 24, 2011 9:33 AM
And meanwhile in another Sky news story about the missing lady in Wiltshire we have this paragraph:

"Searches will be limited by available daylight but we will be further assisted by specialist dog teams who arrive tomorrow and resume the search effort as soon as daylight permits."

Why bother, clearly the dogs will just confuse the issue!Recommend (9)Report this commentPermalink


Posted by: minicoopers09 on March 24, 2011 9:33 AM
""Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.""




So the dogs found again what they were supposed to. It makes no difference if it was the right person they were looking for or not. The dogs pick up scents of dead bodies, they cannot put a NAME to the scent.

What an absolutely stupid and ill written article. Is this today's Journalists, no wonder the UK press is so bad!

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Posted by: emilyb3 on March 24, 2011 9:32 AM
The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.
-
what are they all then? A number? Or just two? And why was their use controversial in the Shannon case. They did their job didn't they? Their competence surely is judged by how many cases they help solve. No national standard of testing or record keeping? Really? Why not? What piffle.Recommend (14)Report this commentPermalink



Posted by: hastings10 on March 24, 2011 9:32
Human remains were found at Jersey, in the form of teeth and bones. The dogs also did their job, as they did in the Matthews case.So not sure for what purpose this article has been written.!!!Recommend (2)Report this commentPermalink



Posted by: minicoopers09 on March 24, 2011 9:22 AM
This article if very confusing. So the dogs alerted to furniture purchased or removed from a dead persons house? How did the dogs take up valuable time, surely they were right, its there job to find the scent, it’s the Police Officers job to check where the furniture alerted to came from surely?Recommend (17)Report this commentPermalink



Posted by: Steve.Luther on March 24, 2011 9:18 AM
So the dead body dogs DID find evidence fo dead bodies being in contact with furniture or dead bodies had been in the vicinity of where they were sniffing so infact the dog did its job perfectly. It was the police that screwed up by using a dead body sniffer dog to detect a missing person. So the wrong tool for the specific job. Then they blame the dog for not finding what they want it to find when infact it did find what it was trained to find.Recommend (12)Report this commentPermalinkShowing 11 to 20 of 31



Posted by: cityblueboy70 on March 24, 2011 10:40 AM
What a load of rubbish. Body dogs are trained to indicate the presence of human remains, including bodily fluids, blood, bones and flesh. They are trained to a Home Office approved standard and are tested regularly. In the case of Shannon Matthews the dogs searched 100's of addresses at the request of the Senior Investigating Officer and at one relevant address, indicated on a mattress. The occupier of the address was under investigation for attempt child abduction. Follow up enquiries revealed that the mattress had been purchased from a second hand shop, who had in turn got it from a deceased ladies house clearance and was indeed the bed on which she had passed away.
These are the facts and the NPIA are manipulating this positive indication into casting doubt on these dogs abilities, as for the journalism well its inaccurate at best.
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by littlepixie on 24.03.11 11:23

So we have Mark Harrison who (if I am correct) was/is a very senior Police Officer in the NPIA recommending that a cadaver dog was brought into the McCann case and then we have the NPIA contradicting him saying that cadaver dogs are no good in these cases. Are the NPIA colluding?

There is something very, very fishy about all of this. Does Mr Harrison still work as a Police Officer? Why are SKY news trotting out this garbage? Why are so many people involved in what looks like the cover up of this childs death?
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Guest on 24.03.11 11:32

@littlepixie wrote:So we have Mark Harrison who (if I am correct) was/is a very senior Police Officer in the NPIA recommending that a cadaver dog was brought into the McCann case and then we have the NPIA contradicting him saying that cadaver dogs are no good in these cases. Are the NPIA colluding?

There is something very, very fishy about all of this. Does Mr Harrison still work as a Police Officer? Why are SKY news trotting out this garbage? Why are so many people involved in what looks like the cover up of this childs death?


Indeed littlepixie. What has prompted Sky to write this article now. Did they know about this and have waited 2 years. Did someone give them a winkwink . There is no balance to this article, it is just to discredit the dogs. Why? And why now?
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by littlepixie on 24.03.11 13:27

Wonder if all this twittering about the dog-handlers being on the stand today in the Casey Anthony case is making them nervous.
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by aiyoyo on 24.03.11 13:52

But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.

That's very shoddy journalism. "Nothing more was found.." just ....what the hell does that mean?
Eddie's expertise was exclusively sniffing out cadaver and nothing more, which he did brilliantly in both Shannon and Madeleine cases. It's investigators role to solve the case...not Eddie.

I like poster's comment that Eddie cant put name to that 'unique perfume'.

What is strange is: if NPIA felt so strongly about standards and accreditation why wasn't Eddie dismissed after Shannon Matthew's case, but was then immediately deployed right after having marked the mccanns?
Fishy fishy fishy!! Who was NPIA colluding with? Rather who was leaning on them?
I wont believe in a million year that NPIA had supported Mark Harrison to use Eddie for Mccanns' case only for them to come out shortly after to discredit Eddie thereby shooting their own foot.

Is Eddie's sacking from South Yorkshire Police force post mccanns merely coincidence?
Did Brown stop by South Yorkshire Police station and personally enquired about ' Eddie's dismissal' -- deja vu!!
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Dogs dissed

Post by Tony Bennett on 24.03.11 14:05

@aiyoyo wrote:Eddie's expertise was exclusively sniffing out cadaver...It's investigators' role to solve the case...not Eddie. Fishy fishy fishy!! Who was NPIA colluding with? Rather who was leaning on them?
I think there is more than a whiff, a veritable stench I would say, of the government elite dissing these dogs in every way they can. Sniffer dogs still come in jolly handy when sniffing out explosives and drugs though. Maybe the official view is that they should stick to bombs and cocaine and not bother too much about the bodies of children?
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Cheshire Cat on 24.03.11 15:08

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Eddie's expertise was exclusively sniffing out cadaver...It's investigators' role to solve the case...not Eddie. Fishy fishy fishy!! Who was NPIA colluding with? Rather who was leaning on them?
I think there is more than a whiff, a veritable stench I would say, of the government elite dissing these dogs in every way they can. Sniffer dogs still come in jolly handy when sniffing out explosives and drugs though. Maybe the official view is that they should stick to bombs and cocaine and not bother too much about the bodies of children?

Remember that there was a debrief on the Shannon Matthews case (faked abduction) at the very same CEOP conference where Gerry was the star turn! Handy for Gerry to hear first hand how unreliable the dogs were in the Shannon case.

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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by ufercoffy on 24.03.11 15:38

I wonder what the survivors of Haute da la garenne and Senator Syvret will make of this. angry

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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by theolivebranch on 24.03.11 20:58

Oh so second hand furniture is to blame is it. And a second hand child's red tee shirt, and second hand trousers and top of the missing child's mother, and in the second hand corner near the built in, so not second hand, wardrobe in the parent's bedroom. etc etc. In that case my house must reek with all the second hand furniture and the charity shop clothes.
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by sharonl on 24.03.11 23:26

The dogs searched a number of apartments in PDL and alerted only in the McCanns apartment. If 2nd hand furniture is to blame, then the McCanns apartment must be the only one to contain 2nd hand furniture with cadaver odour.

Given that the dogs alerted in many different areas in the apartment, including the veranda and the flower beds, how likely is it that the Ocean club obtained a load of furniture and garden ornaments etc. and put all those smelling of cadaver odour into one apartment? Even if this was explained by the furniture in 5a coming from the same source (same house) there would have to had been a death in the property and the body moved a number of times in order to contaminate each piece of furniture, or a number of deaths in that property, in different rooms.

Second hand BUILT IN wardrobe? that would be a bit odd, wouldn`t it?

What about the blood under the floor tiles?

Then we have Seans red tee-shirt

Are the friends second hand too? https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2125-madeleine-sniffer-dogs-found-scent-of-death-on-one-of-the-mccanns-friends

The McCanns originally confirmed the scent of death by stating that Kate and cuddlecat had tended to 6 corpses, in Kates holiday clothes, just before the holiday.

The cadaver odour in the car was explained away as being either dirty nappies and rotting meat, or sea bass as their 2 year old had developed a liking for it. How much sea bass can a 2 year old eat?

The car boot was reported to have been left open for quite a few nights

Later, the McCanns played down the evidence of the dogs saying that they were notoriously unreliable and using the Eugene Zapata case to back that up. Eugene Zapata, blew a great big hole in this theory by pleading guilty to the murder of his wife and confessing that the body had been exactly where ther dogs indicated, they were spot on.

There are a lot of sniffer dogs, why select Eddie for this article? I find this highly manipulative, particularly as they put Eddie down by saying "Eddie is no longer working with us", it would appear that this was meant to put out the thought that he was sacked or useless. And why say this now, that report was allegedly written 2 years ago.

There is a report somewhere where Eddie and Keela were successful within the last two years.

This report says that the dogs did pick up the smell of death whilst working on the Shannon Matthews case, but the corpses were nothing to do with Shannon Matthews. This confirms that the dogs were correct and did the job that they are trained to do, and they found what they were trained to find, but this report condemns them because the corspes that had been in these areas that they alerted to were nothing to do with Shannon - surely this is police incompetence, not canine incompetence?

So now we hear that good quality police dogs with a 100% success record who help to solve murders are being down graded because they cannot find the RIGHT CORPSE - Ludicrous.

I wonder what the chances are of getting a copy of that report and the reason that it was never published.

No, sorry Clarrie but the second hand furniture scenario just wouldn`t work in this case and quite frankly I think that you have shot yourself in the foot.

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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by aiyoyo on 25.03.11 4:24

So are we to understand km's infamous 'pants of ganga' ( mark & spencer?) was a second hand?
From a dead patient perhaps? Hey, nothing is too ludicrous to suggest....considering the mccanns tactics...
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by YNG on 25.03.11 8:33

They're barking up the wrong tree ........ it's not Eddie they need to worry about , it's Keela, she not only confirmed Eddies alerts but confirmed the location of DNA evidence



All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the license they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods and standards.

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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Autumn on 25.03.11 9:37

@YNG wrote:They're barking up the wrong tree ........ it's not Eddie they need to worry about , it's Keela, she not only confirmed Eddies alerts but confirmed the location of DNA evidence



All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the license they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods and standards.

More about these amazing dogs in an article in The Times - 30th December 2005

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. “She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye,” he said. “She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article783458.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Lili on 28.03.11 17:55

To be honest, I am a little bit confused now. On what did Eddie react? Cadaver or blood? Or both?Eddie did find the typical smell in the wardrobe and flowerbed. Keela not. Does that mean that there, in wardrobe and flowerbed = human cadaver and behind the sofa and in the trunk of the car = blood and only perhaps cadaver???
Hmmmmm ...


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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Guest on 28.03.11 18:39

@Lili wrote:To be honest, I am a little bit confused now. On what did Eddie react? Cadaver or blood? Or both?Eddie did find the typical smell in the wardrobe and flowerbed. Keela not. Does that mean that there, in wardrobe and flowerbed = human cadaver and behind the sofa and in the trunk of the car = blood and only perhaps cadaver???
Hmmmmm ...


Lili


Hi Lili,

You might find some interesting information about the dogs here at the excellent McCannfiles

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html
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Re: Martin Grime's EDDIE was wrong

Post by Lili on 28.03.11 19:07

candyfloss wrote:
@Lili wrote:To be honest, I am a little bit confused now. On what did Eddie react? Cadaver or blood? Or both?Eddie did find the typical smell in the wardrobe and flowerbed. Keela not. Does that mean that there, in wardrobe and flowerbed = human cadaver and behind the sofa and in the trunk of the car = blood and only perhaps cadaver???
Hmmmmm ...


Lili


Hi Lili,

You might find some interesting information about the dogs here at the excellent McCannfiles


Thank you Candy, I will read McCannFiles :-)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

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