Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?

by Doug D 21.10.17 13:09

Abracadaver:

David Payne revealed that "we knew something was going to happen, but could never imagine it would be something like this!"

Where has this come from?

by MayMuse 21.10.17 14:21

Doug D wrote:Abracadaver:

David Payne revealed that "we knew something was going to happen, but could never imagine it would be something like this!"

Where has this come from?

It's from Paynes statement ..his own words just like he said he didn't think this forum best place to discuss other things or words to that effect...I think it was the rog interviews? Stand to be corrected.

by Doug D 21.10.17 14:54

Not in his 4th May nor rog. statements that I can see.

It's showing as a direct quote, but I don't think I have ever come across it before.

by Verdi 21.10.17 15:41

MayMuse wrote:
Doug D wrote:Abracadaver:

David Payne revealed that "we knew something was going to happen, but could never imagine it would be something like this!"

Where has this come from?
It's from Paynes statement ..his own words just like he said he didn't think this forum best place to discuss other things or words to that effect...I think it was the rog interviews? Stand to be corrected.

David Payne's rogatory interview - 11th April 2008

1485 "Is there anything that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth''

Reply "Err the, there are a few things but I don't think this is the right forum for bringing those up.'
----------

Hardly equates to "we knew something was going to happen, but could never imagine it would be something like this!"

Perhaps member Abracadavar could provide the source of the quotation. Otherwise edit his/her post to clarify.

by **Jill Havern** 21.10.17 16:12

David Payne, 41: Senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University. Helped run the Find Madeleine campaign after May 3.

Like his wife, he has never given an interview but broke his silence last week to say: "We know they didn't do it. One of our party saw Madeleine being abducted. We were waiting for something to happen but didn't in our worst nightmare think it would be this."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Liz Eagles 21.10.17 16:34

and this is a credible newspaper?

by Doug D 21.10.17 16:36

Thank you GeG.

So this is a DP quote about when the Mc's were made arguido's, nothing to do with the 'abduction' which seemed to be inferred in the context of the post.

by expert madeleine 21.10.17 18:34

Estou a disposição de todos os participantes deste forum, para responder, quase todas as perguntas sobre o desaparecimento de Madeleine Mccann.
eu investigo o caso Madeleine, a mais de 9 anos, e hoje tenho informações importantes para revelar, com provas, e muitas evidencias.

He eu posso afirmar que Madeleine Mccann esta viva, morando na Holanda. podem fazer as perguntas ??

by Nina 21.10.17 18:38

expert madeleine wrote:Estou a disposição de todos os participantes deste forum, para responder, quase todas as perguntas sobre o desaparecimento de Madeleine Mccann.
eu investigo o caso Madeleine, a mais de 9 anos, e hoje tenho informações importantes para revelar, com provas, e muitas evidencias.

He eu posso afirmar que Madeleine Mccann esta viva, morando na Holanda. podem fazer as perguntas ??

by **Jill Havern** 21.10.17 18:43

Hello 'expert madeleine'

Here's my first question: What about Eddie and Keela?

by willowthewisp 21.10.17 19:24

Doug D wrote:Thank you GeG.

So this is a DP quote about when the Mc's were made arguido's, nothing to do with the 'abduction' which seemed to be inferred in the context of the post.

Hi DougD,perhaps you are right about the quote and the date of the article,along with the date of being made Arquido's.

Different researchers have stated they Do not believe"Paedophilia"to be part of Madeleine McCann's disappearance 3 May 2007?
Maybe this is the Accident"that people are,have made reference to,made by both sets of parties,Tapas 7/9,the parents,Portugal PJ,when and where did this happen?
There is one point to make on these allegations,in 2007-2008,The Metropolitan Police alongside,Interpol have investigated and ruled out,that they"couldn't find a Paedophile Gang Operating in Portugal"at the time Madeleine had disappeared!
Abracadaver doe's raise some interesting points,and if you look once again at the Monday,Monday posts,from Martin Roberts,only in America,blog.
Add into this flux,CEOP,Jim Gamble,30 April,Wayback machine,2/500billion,who flew out from the UK to Portugal after this date?
Could CEOP be used as a front to "Stop child abuse"whilst at the same time have"Open ended access"to different levels of Government on the"Perpetrators" of these actions,that you can then determine who is exposed and who isn't?
If it is ever proven,that certain Organisations have acted,shall we say"Differently"to the way they were supposed to function on child abuse,woe betide them if it is ever exposed?

The UK Police"Openly"condemn,the online people who expose these persons,that they should leave the Police to catch these people under the Laws of the UK,then sent to a Trail in a Court of Law and Order,now I haven't got a problem with that process,but it does beggar the question,they do the(Paedophile hunters)"Expose"at least person's acting in very suspicious circumstances to say the least?

Whereas the UK Police track record on successful past abuses directed to young adolescents,is less than I would say adequate,taking into account a major,Metropolitan Police Force,Care Homes in and around London,Lambeth,Islington,Richmond,Elm Guest House, street Prostitution past Ten to fifty years?
Throw into that mix,what has happened to young adolescents from in the North,Towns in Yorkshire,Lancashire,1400 Girls,where the Police were having an Henry the eighth moment?
Add in Bryn Alyn,Estyn Care Homes that William Hague had given a clean bill of Health to on his Inquiry,costing millions of pounds,but a welsh chief Inspector was found guilty of child abuse,carried out at the afore mentioned Care Homes?
Then the Irish Care Homes,Kincora,eh big Jim,former RUC officer wasn't you?

by JRP 21.10.17 21:14

willowthewisp wrote:
Doug D wrote:Thank you GeG.

So this is a DP quote about when the Mc's were made arguido's, nothing to do with the 'abduction' which seemed to be inferred in the context of the post.
Hi DougD,perhaps you are right about the quote and the date of the article,along with the date of being made Arquido's.

snipped
There is one point to make on these allegations,in 2007-2008,The Metropolitan Police alongside,Interpol have investigated and ruled out,that they"couldn't find a Paedophile Gang Operating in Portugal"at the time Madeleine had disappeared!
snipped

Maybe they caught a plane home Willow

by Verdi 21.10.17 21:53

Abracadaver wrote:
Anyway, finally, I feel ready to answer the question -- "What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?" for myself.

So, sponging off all the penetrating insights [?] this forum and it's members has to offer for in excess of one and a half years, cutting to the chase, you don't appear to have moved forward in your thinking. By way of example..

1. " ....accidental death, involving medical experiments "

There is not a scrap of evidence to substantiate such a wild theory.

2. ".... acceptance that Dr Katerina Gaspar is not a liar."

I don't believe anyone has suggested that Dr Gaspar is a liar. If you are trying to imply that David Payne is guilty of child abuse then I caution you to be more wary about what you imply. It's a possibility but even if there be any truth in the assumption, without evidence, there can be no assumed premise that Madeleine's disappearance is in any way connected to David Payne.

Purporting theory is one thing but without evidence or intelligence of any description, you are treading dangerous ground.

Now down to the rest of your muse..

"Let's say that, up until very recently at least, it was already my belief that not only was this not a "family" holiday in any sense of the word, but that the "many comings and goings" reported at Apartment 5A - related to those of a distinctly more "adult" nature. Yet, whilst the nature of these events taking place during this holiday were very much "adult themed" -- that they were certainly not exclusive of the involvement of children."

Absolute nonsense! There was no reported comings and goings at apartment 5a; no evidence of adult themed events no evidence of an adult only genre of holiday excluding children.

Movng on..

"It is my belief that, something, and the involvement of someone(s) far more important than a group of up-themselves doctors, is what is being covered up here."

Admirable belief shared my many but considering your post is supposed to be your opinion of what happened to Madeleine - you're not very decisive, dodging about from one idea to another with little or no logical reasoning. As far as I see all you have done is pluck out random ideas from past discussion and filled the gaps with your own poetic waffle to try an create some resemblance of cohesion. 10/10 for entertainment value but 0/10 for any other value. CMoMM is not a platform for poseurs.

Thank goodness your comments are only opinion but try sticking to the evidence - you know it makes sense.

by Julie 21.10.17 23:58

"Thank goodness your comments are only opinion"

Wasn't the thread called "what do YOU think happened to Madeleine"? So it's the kind of thread where all opinions can be put forward is it not?

If not, is there anywhere on this forum folk can actually express their theories freely without mods expressing contempt?

by Abracadaver 22.10.17 3:35

MayMuse wrote:A good post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thanks, and for the reminder of Monday Monday

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Many thanks, and you're welcome. smilie

I have found Martin's writing to be instrumental in helping put many things into perspective for me. This piece, and the discussion that follows in particular.

Verdi wrote:CMoMM is not a platform for poseurs.

Ahhh, the irony. Love it. laughat

rose1234 wrote:"Thank goodness your comments are only opinion"

Wasn't the thread called "what do YOU think happened to Madeleine"? So it's the kind of thread where all opinions can be put forward is it not?

Indeed, thank you Rose. And I did.

by Verdi 22.10.17 13:28

Abracadaver wrote: I have found Martin's writing to be instrumental in helping put many things into perspective for me. This piece, and the discussion that follows in particular.

It can't be denied that Dr Martin Roberts has produced some sterling work with his analysis of various aspects of the mystery of Madeleine McCann. It should however be recognized that his powers are limited in the same way as the rest of us - he is but another commentator trying to make sense of the tangled web created by the McCann machine. I don't doubt his work will go down in the histrionics of case research, along with a number of other well qualified contenders.

You are probably aware that the 'wayback machine' debacle was covered extensively on CMoMM with very little enlightenment. If I remember rightly, please correct me if I'm wrong, the revelation was first introduced by one Steve 'Stevo' Marsden, who when asked to elaborate on the theory, disappeared off the circuit leaving a floundering audience. There are other areas of concern about the part played by Marsden in this fiasco but that has no relevance to this thread.

So, that aside, in simple terms,what exactly is your opinion and more importantly where is your evidence?

by willowthewisp 22.10.17 14:05

JRP wrote:
willowthewisp wrote:
Doug D wrote:Thank you GeG.

So this is a DP quote about when the Mc's were made arguido's, nothing to do with the 'abduction' which seemed to be inferred in the context of the post.
Hi DougD,perhaps you are right about the quote and the date of the article,along with the date of being made Arquido's.

snipped
There is one point to make on these allegations,in 2007-2008,The Metropolitan Police alongside,Interpol have investigated and ruled out,that they"couldn't find a Paedophile Gang Operating in Portugal"at the time Madeleine had disappeared!
snipped

Maybe they caught a plane home Willow

Hi JRP,perhaps they did,perhaps they then decided in the best interests of all parties to enter into a"Pact of Silence"?
Perhaps they had CEOP files opened,just as a precautionary step,that alluded to an earlier time before Madeleine was born?
DP closing down of interview,did Mr Payne have anything he would like to add,that could further the investigation,replies,"that perhaps this isn't the right place or pertinent time to reveal,what he knows",DCI 1485 Mesiha,OK,end of interview. But what a way to end a Police Interview, DP asked do you have any knowledge that could further the Investigation,or word to that effect.
To all Criminal elements,"Get up off the floor and stop p*ssing your pants"this is how we procede if you are doctors,but if you're Plebs,Game on,Gloves on,Batons,tasers ready?

by Guest 22.10.17 14:34

So the fact There's no flight record of Diane Webster and the fact that David Payne arranged the holiday and the fact that the Gasper's said he said that and the fact that Yvonne Warren Martin, a child abuse expert recognised him, and the fact he called the child abuse UK on the 4th for a minute and a half and was as inconsistent as the McCann's in their statement's mean nothing?

by Guest 22.10.17 14:35

He also lied about the phone call if you have nothing to hide why lie?

by polyenne 22.10.17 16:35

Some folk on here seem to be hellbent on stifling opinion and debate.

Just my opinion.........

by Waynetta 23.10.17 20:38

littlepixie wrote:I think she died way before 3rd May. There is no way that the "abduction" was cobbled together on the night of the 3rd. It is obvious from the photo they released straight away, to the ambiguos photos later released that they were trying to blur everyones image of Madeleine. That way if anyone had seen in PDL her during the brief period she was alive on holiday, they could never be 100% sure it was definitely her.
I also don't think her death was the result of an accidental fall and I believe her parents and their friends are lying when they say they left the children on their own every single night. I think neglect was their alibi.

I'm drawn to the last six words in your post. That crossed my mind too.

by nglfi 25.10.17 10:06

I'm undecided on several key elements of the crime, and I feel like it's impossible to be definitive since we don't have access to all the files. Imagine how the release of ALL the files available could potentially skew our understanding of what happened. I do wonder if the PJ have withheld either the most or the least damning pieces of evidence against the McCanns, what was their criteria in deciding what to withhold or release.
I tend to lean more towards a life of general neglect for Madeleine which culminated in an accident. However I don't rule out someone being too heavy handed one day and then it was too late.
I know people make a lot out of Gerry' s I'm not here to have fun' statement, but I do not think the whole holiday was planned with this as the outcome. The pair of them strike me as extreme narcissists and that then crossing over into their parenting style. I imagine being forced to use IVF was a serious blow to their egos and self esteem. I do find the way they treated their children odd, as I know a few couples who have used IVF and if anything they are more permissive and are excessively affectionate with their little ones (can't really be excessive with that but I can't think of another way to phrase it)
As to the specifics, I think something happened before 3rd May. There's simply no way a clean up operation could have been carried out so quickly in the time frame that the parents give for her going missing.
It's clear that there was a cadaver in 5A. The evidence of the dogs is paramount in this. So this cadaver lay there for a couple of days before being moved.
Perhaps the flower bed was a testing ground to see if a fall could be staged there. It couldn't and so the abduction scenario was planned.
When you read the rogatory statements of all the Tapas crew, it becomes clear IMO that they are all aware and complicit in what happened. And that must be because something binds them together. I believe that something is the same reason Madeleine body could not be subject to an autopsy.
I'm a great believer in the most simplistic explanation being the most likely, and since the tennis bag went missing, it was probably used for transport. At some point it was transported in the car. Again the dogs are paramount. Clearly a cadaver was moved in that car. The McCanns tend to argue that the world's media was on them and they wouldn't have the chance to do anything. I think this is a quite deliberate ploy and smokescreen, Gerry in particular involved the media so early, among other reasons because it allowed him to then argue this. However, 'the media' aren't stuois. Sadly a missing Madeleine is far more valuable than a dead and secreted away Madeleine. Sure, whoever snapped Gerry taking a dead body away in a car (As if it wouldn't be concealed some way?!) Would get a major scoop but the overall story would be over pretty quickly. Two scumbag parents killed their kid and tried to hide the body. That's all there is to it. That story has no longevity.
So at some point they moved the body, and I believe it's been disposed of in such a way that it will not be found. They are both too relaxed now to suspect she will ever be found. I think Fr Pacheco holds a large key piece of the puzzle in this.

As for government involvement, it's certainly an element that cannot be denied. I used to think OG was legit, it's no longer possible to believe that. I think the element that binds the Tapas crew together potentially binds key politicians at the time to events as well. Not that they ever came into contact with Madeleine, but perhaps Gerry or one of the Tapas knew something and used that 'key piece of information' as leverage. I can't be more specific because I'm wary of libel etc, and also because as stated I think it's impossible to be definitive without all the files. I'm just a humble reader of this site, I do have my opinions but I don't have any evidence or anything new to add to existing facts, and older members on here have done such an amazing job to compile and analyse as much as they have.

by polyenne 25.10.17 12:30

Hi nglfi

I agree entirely with your thoughts. Having extensively read the available information and taken into account the many varied opinions and discussions on this learned forum, this is where I have ended up.

Perhaps the slight discrepancy is the flower bed - I believe her body was placed there, perhaps in the bluebag, as a staging point in the body-removal process (body out of apartment, into flower bed, vehicle pulls up, boot opens, body in).

I'm always expecting a wee nugget to pop up that throws this all in the air !!

by Julie 25.10.17 21:47

polyenne wrote:Hi nglfi

I agree entirely with your thoughts. Having extensively read the available information and taken into account the many varied opinions and discussions on this learned forum, this is where I have ended up.

Perhaps the slight discrepancy is the flower bed - I believe her body was placed there, perhaps in the bluebag, as a staging point in the body-removal process (body out of apartment, into flower bed, vehicle pulls up, boot opens, body in).

I'm always expecting a wee nugget to pop up that throws this all in the air !!

I agree that the body was transported in the Blue Bag, and have also concluded that the blue bag had been placed on the flower bed, hence cadaverine/body fluid odour. The thing I can't get my head around is when this all may have happened..

by nglfi 26.10.17 7:44

*when* is one of the most difficult questions I find. The more I think about the finer detail, the more confusing it becomes, which is why being able to read all the files would make it clearer IMO.
I'm pretty sure Amaral indicates that the police were considering some foreknowledge when the Tapas started handing out posters and photos of Madeleine so quickly after she went. The photos weren't all recent and there was some 'confusion' over who printed them and when. I can't think why they would be reluctant to be honest about that when it's seemingly innocuous. But then it being planned before the holiday just doesn't make sense to me when other things are considered. I don't think it would have been planned so badly if they had planned it before arriving, and the other question would be why? Why plan to fake an abduction of your child (prior to the holiday)? I've still not fully come to a conclusion.

by Verdi 26.10.17 12:50

silverdoe wrote:So the fact There's no flight record of Diane Webster and the fact that David Payne arranged the holiday and the fact that the Gasper's said he said that and the fact that Yvonne Warren Martin, a child abuse expert recognised him, and the fact he called the child abuse UK on the 4th for a minute and a half and was as inconsistent as the McCann's in their statement's mean nothing?

To what aspect of the mystery does this relate?

Dianne Webster made her own flight arrangements. I don't think the flight details contained in the PJ files reflect a true picture of the comings and goings of guests at the Ocean Club, therefore nothing constructive can be gained.

Yes, allegedly David Payne did make the arrangements for the group's holiday to the Ocean Club.

Yes, the Gaspers did make individual statements about David Payne's behaviour on a previous holiday.

Yvonne Martin's credibility is the subject of ambiguity. Above all else, one has to wonder why, as a professional in the field of child care, she sent an anonymous letter to the UK police about David Payne.

As far as I'm aware, the only detailed reference to David Payne's phone call to the UK in the early hours is recorded in his rogatory interview in April 2008 [snipped]..

1485 "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn't find in your phone''
Reply "Yes.'

1485 "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Did you contact them''
Reply "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can't remember, I don't think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn't carried forward.'

1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we're in a strange country, we've got no representeers we don't know what's going on, all hell's broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.'

1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to''
Reply "I don't know.'

1485 "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that's late at night.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "You don't recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call''
Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can't remember making one late at night.'
----------

It would be extremely helpful if you could confirm where the information about Payne calling "child abuse UK" comes from.

by Guest 26.10.17 13:19

David Payne was there, central to the story? Or am I missing something?
The blog I found the phone call on is here http://thetapas9drdavidpayne.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/mccann-david-payne-phoned-metropolitan.html
And Yvonne has 25 years experience, and many many files were held back
from the McCanns by the PJ, its on the man ref page,

by Guest 26.10.17 13:20

Oh and if David made that odd call in innocence, why lie about it?

by polyenne 26.10.17 13:31

Verdi - the Crime Specialist Directorate encompassed several departments including Child Abuse Investigation Command. It also included the Dog Support Unit !!

Mark Rowley has been, and still is, part of the leadership.

It encompasses many departments The question remain, why would any member of the general public know to call that specific number, at that time of night and not recall who they spoke to ?

by Guest 26.10.17 13:34

Polyenne thank you for putting it better than I could! I still also stand by, if nothing to hide, you don't need the to lie or stammer or so many errrsss during one small part of an interview, the truth is easy, lies are far from it