What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: Latest News and Debate :: Debate Section - for purporting theories
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 20.01.17 19:08
tigger wrote:Just going through some of the material here and found your long post.
I had just one thought, since that post the book was published and we're a little way further.
You said that in your opinion, the only safe sighting of Maddie in PdL was on Sunday by the cleaner.
What bothers me about that is the shoes she describes, trainers with little lights on the side. I know what she meant.
Thing is, they never get a mention from Kate, who seems to make sure we know all about Maddie's clothes in the book. The twins are supposed to have had the same shoes. Now one would expect the girl in the tennis photo to be wearing those, instead of unsuitable sandals.
It's just that a little girl would practically go to bed with them on, in my experience. but they're not in the book.
The twins are supposed to have had the same shoes, I've never seen any photographs where they're wearing those. Which makes me think the children the cleaner saw where some of the other tapas children, or even the Naylor girl.
Bit wild, but it seems weird that Kate passes this up. She was very informative about her own pink runnings shoes. To put it mildly.
The shoes Maddie was wearing in the playground certainly appear to be of the sort that have little lights in the sole
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Fatima wrote:
She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes
Just to add...Part of the reason I found this to be the ONLY credible statement that 'confirms' it was Maddie she saw is not only because they were coming out of the apartment and all appeared to look like the family, but more importantly the time checked with her hours of work and also she was describing them going to the stairs which would lead to the Paynes apartment with plates and bread. Fatima would have no knowledge that they had visited there for lunch so this gave credible confirmation of her being correct in what she saw.
(FOR THE RECORD) This does NOT mean other witnesses did NOT see Maddie after that... Only that I consider this statement relative specific proof.
- CLICK TO VIEW Witness statement of Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada:
03-Processos Vol III Pages 675 to 678
Witness statement
Taken by officer Jose Luis, Inspector
Date : 2007: 05: 08
Name: Fatima Maria Serafim da Silva Espada
Profession: Cleaner
Place of work: Luz Ocean Club
She has worked at the Ocean Club for approximately eleven years. She is a permanent employee of the Club and works all year round. She has a day and a half off a week. She has fixed working hours from 10.00 AM to 18.00 with a break for lunch from 13.30 to 18.00 and remains at the club during this time or goes to attend to personal matters near to the Club. She has a fixed day off on Tuesdays and had a day off on May 1st (national holiday) as well Sunday afternoon 29th April.
When asked how her work was organised in the club, specifically in the cleaning areas where she worked, she said there are norms pre-defining the areas where each employee worked, with the aim of delivering an efficient service. This principle does not imply that in times of work overload for any colleague, that they could not help out even in areas that were not allocated to them. She knows because she has heard that the missing English girl was staying in block 5 apartment A, which is referred to as 5A out of habit. This apartment is situated in a zone that was not allocated to her, but to a colleague, in this case her mother Maria Julia Silva.
She knows that the little girl disappeared on the night of 3rd May and is sure that she only heard about this on the following morning when she arrived at work, as it was the only subject being talked about.
She had the opportunity to observe the photos of Madeleine that were being circulated everywhere and has no hesitation in confirming that she saw the child before her disappearance in the company of her siblings and mother and father, although in the latter case she only observed him from a distance.
She states that this took place on Sunday 29th April, just before she finished her morning work shift (13.30) as she had the afternoon off that day. At about 13.15 she went to help her mother, who was cleaning apartment I of the same block (5) situated on the first floor. She clearly remembers seeing the girl accompanied by her siblings and mother leave their apartment (5 A) and walk to the stairs leading to the floor above. She was very close to them at a distance of about 1 metre, observing their movements for a few moments because she was charmed by them. Madeleine led the way with a plate (perhaps plastic) in her hand bearing a piece of bread. As regards the clothes she was wearing she only remembers a skirt but cannot recall its description. She noted, because she thought them nice, the type of shoes she was wearing, tennis shoes, light in colour she thinks, which had little lights along the soles, which lit up each time she stepped on the ground. Her siblings followed behind her, wearing the same king of shoes and each holding a piece of bread in their hands, their mother followed behind them without holding their hands. She seems to remember that the mother was also carrying a plate. Moments afterwards, perhaps the time it took to close the apartment door, the father came out and also headed to the apartment upstairs. When asked, she does not remember whether the father pulled the door closed or locked it with a key.
After she chatted to her mother about there being many children in the apartments, she had the idea that the family in 5H were friends of Madeleine's family who were staying in 5 A.
She never cleaned any of these apartments referred to as they were allocated to her mother. Her mother never mentioned anything strange to her, either before or after the girl's disappearance that could be related to the disappearance. The only comment she remembered concerned the clutter in the apartments, mainly clothing which was left all around the place. She thinks that her mother cleaned the apartments in that block on Monday and Wednesday (02-05).
When asked if she observed anything in the apartments where she cleaned that indicated a person particularly interested in children, such as objects, photos, videos or anything else, she replies no. She has no knowledge of any fact that could contribute to discover Madeleine's whereabouts and pledges to contact the authorities if anything should happen.
No more is said. She reads the statement and finds it in conformity, ratifies it and signs it together with me, the officer who drew up the statement.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 20.01.17 19:37
HiDeHo wrote:While reading my original thoughts on what may have happened I noticed this comment of mine....HiDeHo March 2008 wrote:On Monday, Madeleine was taken out of the creche after 15 minutes in the afternoon. here were discussions about a trip to Sagres on Monday (though not sure they were valid, I feel it is worth keeping in mind)
Something recently has come to my attention (Courtesy Viv on Twitter)
Viv@anotherviv
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] took children to restaurant on nudist beach according to witness statement given to Portuguese Police
Ministry of National Defence
Processos Vol III Pages 820 also Outros Apensos VIII, Vol 2a Page 360
National Marine Authority
Lagos Maritime Police
Lagos Maritime Police Commander
Dear Sir
I inform you that on this date, around 16H30, whilst in the activity of searching, accompanied by sub-chief Dioniz, in the jurisdictional area of this command, namely on the beaches Zavial and Ingnna, we made various inquiries with the intent of finding missing Madeleine Beth McCann. We questioned various users of the referred to beaches: T**** F***, C***** M****, H***** W***, B***** W***, F**** M***, R****** T*****, S**** W****, W*** G**** and C****** W****. These individuals were aware of the disappearance [of the girl] but as of this date, had no indications as to the discovery of her whereabouts.
I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.
It is relevant to note that the Zaival Beach is normally frequented by nudists, and consequently attracts some peepers/lookers on.
These are facts I wanted to bring to your attention.
Lagos, 09th of May of 2007.
- CLICK TO VIEW - Sunday Express August 10 2008:
Family dinner that may have led to tragedy
Sunday Express
By Matt Drake
10 August 2008
A PAEDOPHILE with orders to snatch a young girl may have targeted Madeleine McCann as she played on a naturist beach plagued by voyeurs.
Police raised serious concerns about the McCanns' day trip to the remote Praia da Zavial beach on the weekend before she vanished.
Unaware the area is a notorious nudist attraction, Gerry and Kate McCann innocently dined with their three small children at a restaurant on the beach.
It is feared this was when the abductor first laid eyes on Madeleine playing in the sand with siblings Sean and Amelie.
A report by the local naval authority shows a search team swept Praia da Zavial six days after she disappeared.
The case file highlights how the flawed Portuguese investigation ignored warnings of a sinister Englishman caught taking pictures on the beach.
Officers interviewed nine bathers and questioned the manager of the Zavial beach restaurant, Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho, who vividly recalled meeting the young family. In an inconclusive final paragraph to the report the investigator states: "It is interesting to observe that Praia da Zavial is usually frequented by naturists and that consequently attracts some voyeurs." Naval officers also combed several other beaches along the rocky Algarve coast but found no trace of Madeleine. Last night Mr Muchacho, 23, told how he warned police about the worrying behaviour of the English voyeur. He said: "The police came here just after Madeleine vanished.
"They had had complaints from people about a man behaving strangely at this beach and others in the area.
"I told them I had seen a tall, thin Englishman in his forties taking a lot of photographs. He was weird, a strange guy.
"Madeleine came here for lunch with her parents not long before she disappeared. I don't know if this guy took a picture of Madeleine. It's impossible to say. But he took a lot of photographs.
"He came into the bar a few times. He said he was taking pictures of the birds – the flying variety – but I wasn't so sure.
"I saw him around here a few times after Madeleine went missing. The police thought he might have been a watcher, a voyeur." Several naturist websites have reviewed the secluded sandy beach 10km west of Praia da Luz.
Zavial offers privacy as it is remote from any resort and only accessible by driving up a long track.
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell last night confirmed the family had visited the beach but said they had no idea it was a notorious nudist beach. He said: "It is important information because we have always believed that Madeleine was targeted by an abductor who watched the family.
"Kate and Gerry were enjoying an innocent holiday and did not know that Zavial attracted nudists.
"Anyway, just because people are nudists does not mean they are perverts. We are looking into anything that is relevant to the days before Madeleine was taken and this is clearly important information.
"Sadly we have no idea what the Portuguese police did with this complaint or if they bothered to investigate it further." Last week it emerged that British police were tipped off that Madeleine had been snatched by members of an international paedophile ring who photographed her three days before she was apparently abducted.
According to an email sent by the Metropolitan Police, a child abduction ring based in Belgium placed an order for a "young girl''.
Madeleine was spotted while on holiday by someone connected to the gang who took her picture.
The photograph was sent back to Belgium, where the paedophile ring agreed that she should be abducted.
The email, sent by an intelligence officer on the Met's vice squad on March 4 this year to counterparts in the Portuguese and Leicestershire forces, is a significant development in the case.
From the above article in the Express, there are some quotes from Clarence. The Express (shortly after settling 550,000 costs claimed Clarence confirmed they were at that beach, but his quotes only allude to it...Sunday Express Clarence Quotes. wrote:
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell last night confirmed the family had visited the beach but said they had no idea it was a notorious nudist beach. He said: "It is important information because we have always believed that Madeleine was targeted by an abductor who watched the family.
"Kate and Gerry were enjoying an innocent holiday and did not know that Zavial attracted nudists.
"Anyway, just because people are nudists does not mean they are perverts. We are looking into anything that is relevant to the days before Madeleine was taken and this is clearly important information.
"Sadly we have no idea what the Portuguese police did with this complaint or if they bothered to investigate it further." Last week it emerged that British police were tipped off that Madeleine had been snatched by members of an international paedophile ring who photographed her three days before she was apparently abducted.
This made me wonder once again about MONDAY... a day that little is known...
I then remembered the creche records for that day and as you can see Madeleine's times were odd as well as the TWINS times were questionable and ALSO... how odd that Tanners oldest did not go until 4pm (AFTER Madeleine had been signed out...
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I keep asking myself is it POSSIBLE that the went to that beach on Monday, and if not, why did Clarence find it necessary to be quoted on it?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by MayMuse 20.01.17 20:16
I tend to agree with Hideho theory, one thing though is that they had a photo of a much younger Madeleine readily available to produce the posters! Where did that come from, who has an old photo on their camera when going on holiday wouldn't you want the memory clear for all the other fabulous up,to date photos of a pending holiday? Plus, the over zealous interferences from the government etc... I have often wondered if this was all a planned and horrendous hoax?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by MayMuse 20.01.17 20:20
Thank you again for all your in depth research, anything that Clarrie quotes on I believe is worth another look in my opinion, as find it most odd at his insistence to either counter claim or appear to defend the McCanns on every level?HiDeHo wrote:HiDeHo wrote:While reading my original thoughts on what may have happened I noticed this comment of mine....HiDeHo March 2008 wrote:On Monday, Madeleine was taken out of the creche after 15 minutes in the afternoon. here were discussions about a trip to Sagres on Monday (though not sure they were valid, I feel it is worth keeping in mind)
Something recently has come to my attention (Courtesy Viv on Twitter)
Viv@anotherviv
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] took children to restaurant on nudist beach according to witness statement given to Portuguese Police
Ministry of National Defence
Processos Vol III Pages 820 also Outros Apensos VIII, Vol 2a Page 360
National Marine Authority
Lagos Maritime Police
Lagos Maritime Police Commander
Dear Sir
I inform you that on this date, around 16H30, whilst in the activity of searching, accompanied by sub-chief Dioniz, in the jurisdictional area of this command, namely on the beaches Zavial and Ingnna, we made various inquiries with the intent of finding missing Madeleine Beth McCann. We questioned various users of the referred to beaches: T**** F***, C***** M****, H***** W***, B***** W***, F**** M***, R****** T*****, S**** W****, W*** G**** and C****** W****. These individuals were aware of the disappearance [of the girl] but as of this date, had no indications as to the discovery of her whereabouts.
I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.
It is relevant to note that the Zaival Beach is normally frequented by nudists, and consequently attracts some peepers/lookers on.
These are facts I wanted to bring to your attention.
Lagos, 09th of May of 2007.
- CLICK TO VIEW - Sunday Express August 10 2008:
Family dinner that may have led to tragedy
Sunday Express
By Matt Drake
10 August 2008
A PAEDOPHILE with orders to snatch a young girl may have targeted Madeleine McCann as she played on a naturist beach plagued by voyeurs.
Police raised serious concerns about the McCanns' day trip to the remote Praia da Zavial beach on the weekend before she vanished.
Unaware the area is a notorious nudist attraction, Gerry and Kate McCann innocently dined with their three small children at a restaurant on the beach.
It is feared this was when the abductor first laid eyes on Madeleine playing in the sand with siblings Sean and Amelie.
A report by the local naval authority shows a search team swept Praia da Zavial six days after she disappeared.
The case file highlights how the flawed Portuguese investigation ignored warnings of a sinister Englishman caught taking pictures on the beach.
Officers interviewed nine bathers and questioned the manager of the Zavial beach restaurant, Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho, who vividly recalled meeting the young family. In an inconclusive final paragraph to the report the investigator states: "It is interesting to observe that Praia da Zavial is usually frequented by naturists and that consequently attracts some voyeurs." Naval officers also combed several other beaches along the rocky Algarve coast but found no trace of Madeleine. Last night Mr Muchacho, 23, told how he warned police about the worrying behaviour of the English voyeur. He said: "The police came here just after Madeleine vanished.
"They had had complaints from people about a man behaving strangely at this beach and others in the area.
"I told them I had seen a tall, thin Englishman in his forties taking a lot of photographs. He was weird, a strange guy.
"Madeleine came here for lunch with her parents not long before she disappeared. I don't know if this guy took a picture of Madeleine. It's impossible to say. But he took a lot of photographs.
"He came into the bar a few times. He said he was taking pictures of the birds – the flying variety – but I wasn't so sure.
"I saw him around here a few times after Madeleine went missing. The police thought he might have been a watcher, a voyeur." Several naturist websites have reviewed the secluded sandy beach 10km west of Praia da Luz.
Zavial offers privacy as it is remote from any resort and only accessible by driving up a long track.
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell last night confirmed the family had visited the beach but said they had no idea it was a notorious nudist beach. He said: "It is important information because we have always believed that Madeleine was targeted by an abductor who watched the family.
"Kate and Gerry were enjoying an innocent holiday and did not know that Zavial attracted nudists.
"Anyway, just because people are nudists does not mean they are perverts. We are looking into anything that is relevant to the days before Madeleine was taken and this is clearly important information.
"Sadly we have no idea what the Portuguese police did with this complaint or if they bothered to investigate it further." Last week it emerged that British police were tipped off that Madeleine had been snatched by members of an international paedophile ring who photographed her three days before she was apparently abducted.
According to an email sent by the Metropolitan Police, a child abduction ring based in Belgium placed an order for a "young girl''.
Madeleine was spotted while on holiday by someone connected to the gang who took her picture.
The photograph was sent back to Belgium, where the paedophile ring agreed that she should be abducted.
The email, sent by an intelligence officer on the Met's vice squad on March 4 this year to counterparts in the Portuguese and Leicestershire forces, is a significant development in the case.
From the above article in the Express, there are some quotes from Clarence. The Express (shortly after settling 550,000 costs claimed Clarence confirmed they were at that beach, but his quotes only allude to it...Sunday Express Clarence Quotes. wrote:
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell last night confirmed the family had visited the beach but said they had no idea it was a notorious nudist beach. He said: "It is important information because we have always believed that Madeleine was targeted by an abductor who watched the family.
"Kate and Gerry were enjoying an innocent holiday and did not know that Zavial attracted nudists.
"Anyway, just because people are nudists does not mean they are perverts. We are looking into anything that is relevant to the days before Madeleine was taken and this is clearly important information.
"Sadly we have no idea what the Portuguese police did with this complaint or if they bothered to investigate it further." Last week it emerged that British police were tipped off that Madeleine had been snatched by members of an international paedophile ring who photographed her three days before she was apparently abducted.
This made me wonder once again about MONDAY... a day that little is known...
I then remembered the creche records for that day and as you can see Madeleine's times were odd as well as the TWINS times were questionable and ALSO... how odd that Tanners oldest did not go until 4pm (AFTER Madeleine had been signed out...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I keep asking myself is it POSSIBLE that the went to that beach on Monday, and if not, why did Clarence find it necessary to be quoted on it?
____________________
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by roz 22.01.17 12:36
From Hideho
Viv@anotherviv
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] took children to restaurant on nudist beach according to witness statement given to Portuguese Police
I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.
I keep asking myself is it POSSIBLE that the went to that beach on Monday, and if not, why did Clarence find it necessary to be quoted on it?
Good question HiDeho. Clarence stated that Kate and Gerry did visit Zavial beach. You would think he would have denied it if they had not.
So if the McCanns’ did visit Zavial nudist beach, I would suggest that it could possibly have been for lunch on Monday between 12.15 and 3.15pm. (We know it wasn’t the Sunday as the Mc Canns were seen going up to Paynes’apartment that lunch time with the 3 children.)
Which leads me to further questions; How far away is the Zavial beach? How did they get there with the 3 children?
Did they borrow a pushchair/pushchairs for the twins?
Was this really such an ‘innocent’ trip to the Zavial beach?
Did they meet anyone there?
Why was this trip not mentioned before?
Viv@anotherviv
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] took children to restaurant on nudist beach according to witness statement given to Portuguese Police
I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.
I keep asking myself is it POSSIBLE that the went to that beach on Monday, and if not, why did Clarence find it necessary to be quoted on it?
Good question HiDeho. Clarence stated that Kate and Gerry did visit Zavial beach. You would think he would have denied it if they had not.
So if the McCanns’ did visit Zavial nudist beach, I would suggest that it could possibly have been for lunch on Monday between 12.15 and 3.15pm. (We know it wasn’t the Sunday as the Mc Canns were seen going up to Paynes’apartment that lunch time with the 3 children.)
Which leads me to further questions; How far away is the Zavial beach? How did they get there with the 3 children?
Did they borrow a pushchair/pushchairs for the twins?
Was this really such an ‘innocent’ trip to the Zavial beach?
Did they meet anyone there?
Why was this trip not mentioned before?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by roz 22.01.17 12:51
Or did Clarence only agree that the trip took place because it allowed for the possibility of some ‘unsavoury’ character spotting Madeleine?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 22.01.17 13:13
roz wrote:Or did Clarence only agree that the trip took place because it allowed for the possibility of some ‘unsavoury’ character spotting Madeleine?
Always possible.
I was checking back at the info I have for Monday. Seems they may not have gone for tennis Sunday and Monday evening...
Jez seems confused whether he saw them Monday or not...
Title: Info about MONDAY APRIL 30th
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by noddy100 22.01.17 15:09
I have always thought she was messing about while they were drinking and getting ready to go out and she fell
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Jill Havern 22.01.17 16:53
roz wrote:From Hideho
Viv@anotherviv
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] took children to restaurant on nudist beach according to witness statement given to Portuguese Police
I inform you that, upon going to the Zavial Beach concession of Ernesto Joaquim Muchacho , telephone contact numbers, ******** and ******; the same stated that he recognised the parents of Madeleine McCann as clients of his restaurant and that he remembers seeing them for the last time in his establishment in the month of April (Easter holidays), accompanied by their three children. Since this date, as he exercises his function in the kitchen, he does not remember having seen them on that beach or in his restaurant.
I keep asking myself is it POSSIBLE that the went to that beach on Monday, and if not, why did Clarence find it necessary to be quoted on it?
Good question HiDeho. Clarence stated that Kate and Gerry did visit Zavial beach. You would think he would have denied it if they had not.
So if the McCanns’ did visit Zavial nudist beach, I would suggest that it could possibly have been for lunch on Monday between 12.15 and 3.15pm. (We know it wasn’t the Sunday as the Mc Canns were seen going up to Paynes’apartment that lunch time with the 3 children.)
Which leads me to further questions; How far away is the Zavial beach? How did they get there with the 3 children?
Did they borrow a pushchair/pushchairs for the twins?
Was this really such an ‘innocent’ trip to the Zavial beach?
Did they meet anyone there?
Why was this trip not mentioned before?
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Zavial beach is MILES away, and they had no car.
Very clear it is a part time nudist beach, lots on google refer to their embarrassment at discovering this!
But they would have needed a car, or a taxi, not a pushchair/buggy.
Why would they bother so early in the holiday when they had a beach of their own? It makes no sense.
It would take half an hour each way, then they'd have to park, unpack, walk, etc, then find another taxi, wait and then half a hour back.
2 hours absolute minimum for a flying visit?
I tend to agree with roz that this is an addition to "prove' the pervert angle.
A clarrie-fication too far again?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 22.01.17 17:35
I agree with the above and my initial thoughts were to ignore it, but the fact that Clarence made some comments I decided to pursue it.
Why?
For those of us that believe something may have happened on Monday (and certainly the creche records indicate something was different for the twins, Maddie and Ella,) it occurred to me that could it be possible that it was a good distraction... a trade off like the neglect mantra they preferred (as opposed to the truth)
Having to answer to why they would be visiting a nudist beach would CERTAINLY be of value if they were dealing with, and trying to hide the issues regarding Maddie that day (possibly removing her body?)
It's a thought....
Why?
For those of us that believe something may have happened on Monday (and certainly the creche records indicate something was different for the twins, Maddie and Ella,) it occurred to me that could it be possible that it was a good distraction... a trade off like the neglect mantra they preferred (as opposed to the truth)
Having to answer to why they would be visiting a nudist beach would CERTAINLY be of value if they were dealing with, and trying to hide the issues regarding Maddie that day (possibly removing her body?)
It's a thought....
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 22.01.17 19:45
Two 'stumbling blocks' I have regarding the possibility that something had happened by Monday is how soon it would or could be dealt with...
The maintenance men came into the apartment on Tuesday (we don't know the time) to fix the blinds and explain the washing machine. (Kate claims it was Monday)
There were presumably no children in the apartment at this time...
Wednesday the cleaner entered the apartment saying there were no children present but saying a cot was in the parents bedroom (which they both denied)
They then left the apartment by the patio doors and she was left alone in the apartment...
Had everything been dealt with by this time or were there things in place to cover those situations?
Was Sunday night, Monday morning the time something happened and a trip was needed hence the Zavial suggestion was a good 'cover' for them not being in around PdL?
For the record, we know that the police asked many witnesses if they were seen in a car during the holidays (leading me to believe there was a reason for asking it)
I was speaking to a non Maddie group friend who lived in Faro.... He told me that his wife was attending art classes and overheard the Artist say that HER friends had loaned a car to the McCanns.
I was never able to find out if this was after the disappearance and the McCanns loaned it on behalf of family/friends or if it was slightly possible it was BEFORE the disappearance.
I spoke to a detective at Operation Grange and he took the details and the MSN chat showing it was credible and confirmed to me that it had been accepted and entered into the investigation...
The maintenance men came into the apartment on Tuesday (we don't know the time) to fix the blinds and explain the washing machine. (Kate claims it was Monday)
There were presumably no children in the apartment at this time...
Wednesday the cleaner entered the apartment saying there were no children present but saying a cot was in the parents bedroom (which they both denied)
They then left the apartment by the patio doors and she was left alone in the apartment...
Had everything been dealt with by this time or were there things in place to cover those situations?
Was Sunday night, Monday morning the time something happened and a trip was needed hence the Zavial suggestion was a good 'cover' for them not being in around PdL?
For the record, we know that the police asked many witnesses if they were seen in a car during the holidays (leading me to believe there was a reason for asking it)
I was speaking to a non Maddie group friend who lived in Faro.... He told me that his wife was attending art classes and overheard the Artist say that HER friends had loaned a car to the McCanns.
I was never able to find out if this was after the disappearance and the McCanns loaned it on behalf of family/friends or if it was slightly possible it was BEFORE the disappearance.
I spoke to a detective at Operation Grange and he took the details and the MSN chat showing it was credible and confirmed to me that it had been accepted and entered into the investigation...
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 22.01.17 19:59
Random info on a car during the holidays. Interesting to see the police ask many witnesses
Title: CAR During Holiday
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Title: CAR During Holiday
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Verdi 22.01.17 20:34
Standard policing - I can't see reason to assume any particular significance.HiDeHo wrote:Random info on a car during the holidays. Interesting to see the police ask many witnesses
The PJ suspected that a body had been moved, stands to reason one of the first lines of questioning would be - did they have access to a vehicle. Realistically, the chances of Gerry McCann, or any other persons, walking the streets of Praia da Luz carrying a corpse as has been suggested by some (Martin Smith and Jane Tanner to name but two), is just too ridiculous to even contemplate.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Grande Finale 23.01.17 22:39
Early in December 16, being frustrated by the pace of progress I decided to use a different technique (I got fed up with peeling onions, it only makes for tears).
This new method made rapid progress and just before Christmas had highlighted what I believe is a VERY significant hour.
Using a highly logical method adapted from another discipline (I will call it the "torchlight")
Initially the "torchlight" shone on the whole week, it was very quickly established that Maddie arrived in PDL on the afternoon 28th April 07 but was also most definitely missing by 10.00 pm Thursday 03rd May 07.
The "torchlight" beam gradually narrowed hour by hour until it highlighted Just Sunday 29th April 07 and Monday 30th April.
Sunday was shortly given the all clear, some moments twinkled in the "torchlight" but were quickly dismissed.
The beam of the "torchlight" now greatly reduced just Monday 30th now remained illuminated
Breakfast on the Monday was highlighted but cleared, soon followed by lunchtime on that Monday again also quickly given the OK.
This continued with just a few hours on the Monday remaining highlighted in the beam.
The beam narrowed and narrowed until it shone on the remaining hour 21.30 - 22.30 Monday 30th April 2007.
On the first night of the holiday they used the Millenium restaurant and MBM went with them, this also happened on the Sunday night. ON the Monday night however this succesful format was changed it was the first night they used the Tapas bar, which IF the "torchlight" is correct was the only night they left MBM alone. It was a recipe for disaster which again IF the "torchlight" is correct may actually and very unfortunately have resulted in A disaster.
Now asking some of the pertinent questions we have asked over the past nine years the jigsaw pieces all start slotting perfectly into place !!
ie If correct then the known photographs HAD to all have been taken on the first 3 days!!
PS this technique has been applied completely independently of anything that has gone before it, you will quickly notice that the results easily accomodate the theory around the last photograph, they also allow for the acute observations of Hi de Ho.
This new method made rapid progress and just before Christmas had highlighted what I believe is a VERY significant hour.
Using a highly logical method adapted from another discipline (I will call it the "torchlight")
Initially the "torchlight" shone on the whole week, it was very quickly established that Maddie arrived in PDL on the afternoon 28th April 07 but was also most definitely missing by 10.00 pm Thursday 03rd May 07.
The "torchlight" beam gradually narrowed hour by hour until it highlighted Just Sunday 29th April 07 and Monday 30th April.
Sunday was shortly given the all clear, some moments twinkled in the "torchlight" but were quickly dismissed.
The beam of the "torchlight" now greatly reduced just Monday 30th now remained illuminated
Breakfast on the Monday was highlighted but cleared, soon followed by lunchtime on that Monday again also quickly given the OK.
This continued with just a few hours on the Monday remaining highlighted in the beam.
The beam narrowed and narrowed until it shone on the remaining hour 21.30 - 22.30 Monday 30th April 2007.
On the first night of the holiday they used the Millenium restaurant and MBM went with them, this also happened on the Sunday night. ON the Monday night however this succesful format was changed it was the first night they used the Tapas bar, which IF the "torchlight" is correct was the only night they left MBM alone. It was a recipe for disaster which again IF the "torchlight" is correct may actually and very unfortunately have resulted in A disaster.
Now asking some of the pertinent questions we have asked over the past nine years the jigsaw pieces all start slotting perfectly into place !!
ie If correct then the known photographs HAD to all have been taken on the first 3 days!!
PS this technique has been applied completely independently of anything that has gone before it, you will quickly notice that the results easily accomodate the theory around the last photograph, they also allow for the acute observations of Hi de Ho.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by MayMuse 24.01.17 0:59
I read somewhere and now cant find it, that Madeleine had run off and hid for around half an hour, does anyone remember when this was?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by skyrocket 24.01.17 7:59
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Not sure if this is what you were looking for but it is related :
From Gerry McCann's 10 May statement [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
I suspect the above is in his statement for a reason.
Apparently, all 3 children, under the age of 4, ran off (presumably being shouted at to stop and all 3 ignoring their parents) and 2 fit adults who both enjoy running were unable to stop them. Obviously they weren't even followed closely as GM says he doesn't know how they got from the car park, at the far end of block 4, into the 'gardens' on the pool side of block 4, before accessing the walkway between the high Tapas complex wall and the gardens. So what did GM and KM do? Not knowing where their children had disappeared to at the far end of the car park, they somehow hooked up with them again when they had looped back round to the road, just up from the Tapas entrance. How does that work? Wouldn't you continue the chase? At what point did they say, 'You know what, even though I don't know for sure, I bet there's a way through to the walkway and the little monkeys are going to run back the other way. If we saunter round the other way now, it'll save us the chase and we can catch them that end'. Didn't happen did it?! Well at least not under the circumstances described.
Not sure if this is what you were looking for but it is related :
From Gerry McCann's 10 May statement [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
I suspect the above is in his statement for a reason.
Apparently, all 3 children, under the age of 4, ran off (presumably being shouted at to stop and all 3 ignoring their parents) and 2 fit adults who both enjoy running were unable to stop them. Obviously they weren't even followed closely as GM says he doesn't know how they got from the car park, at the far end of block 4, into the 'gardens' on the pool side of block 4, before accessing the walkway between the high Tapas complex wall and the gardens. So what did GM and KM do? Not knowing where their children had disappeared to at the far end of the car park, they somehow hooked up with them again when they had looped back round to the road, just up from the Tapas entrance. How does that work? Wouldn't you continue the chase? At what point did they say, 'You know what, even though I don't know for sure, I bet there's a way through to the walkway and the little monkeys are going to run back the other way. If we saunter round the other way now, it'll save us the chase and we can catch them that end'. Didn't happen did it?! Well at least not under the circumstances described.
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What do you think happened to Madeleine?
by willowthewisp 24.01.17 12:14
Hi Skyrocket,these are the words of Gerry McCann,so the words used in the statement may be irrelevant,as people do not know if the"Absconding from parents"occurred,but what we do know is that there has been no trace of Madeleine since reported missing by her parents Kate and Gerry McCann 3 May 2007 and the Tapas Friends,pact of silence?
Surprising coincidence about how many people associated to Exeter, R Murat,Goddard's(Silver Corsa),O'Brien,Jane T,especially within such a confined time period of Seven days in April-May 2007,was this a pre-planned event?
Surprising coincidence about how many people associated to Exeter, R Murat,Goddard's(Silver Corsa),O'Brien,Jane T,especially within such a confined time period of Seven days in April-May 2007,was this a pre-planned event?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by HiDeHo 24.01.17 13:50
From Daily Mail August 11 2007
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Source.. 'locals'
'In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed.'
After all, there had been reports that Madeleine had in fact run out of the apartment one night earlier that week, and been found hiding in the bushes outside the apartment. Dr Gerry McCann effectively conceded this when he told police in his statement that ‘Madeleine ran off ahead one night on our return to the apartment but ran out of the apartment hiding from us’
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There is a CMOMM thread on this subject
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Source.. 'locals'
'In a further twist, locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed.'
After all, there had been reports that Madeleine had in fact run out of the apartment one night earlier that week, and been found hiding in the bushes outside the apartment. Dr Gerry McCann effectively conceded this when he told police in his statement that ‘Madeleine ran off ahead one night on our return to the apartment but ran out of the apartment hiding from us’
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There is a CMOMM thread on this subject
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by MayMuse 24.01.17 14:21
Thank you all for the response, I wonder if that really happened? And if the bush was the one that Eddie alerted to?
I will check the thread links.
I will check the thread links.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by kaz 24.01.17 14:42
skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Not sure if this is what you were looking for but it is related :
From Gerry McCann's 10 May statement [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
I suspect the above is in his statement for a reason.
Apparently, all 3 children, under the age of 4, ran off (presumably being shouted at to stop and all 3 ignoring their parents) and 2 fit adults who both enjoy running were unable to stop them. Obviously they weren't even followed closely as GM says he doesn't know how they got from the car park, at the far end of block 4, into the 'gardens' on the pool side of block 4, before accessing the walkway between the high Tapas complex wall and the gardens. So what did GM and KM do? Not knowing where their children had disappeared to at the far end of the car park, they somehow hooked up with them again when they had looped back round to the road, just up from the Tapas entrance. How does that work? Wouldn't you continue the chase? At what point did they say, 'You know what, even though I don't know for sure, I bet there's a way through to the walkway and the little monkeys are going to run back the other way. If we saunter round the other way now, it'll save us the chase and we can catch them that end'. Didn't happen did it?! Well at least not under the circumstances described.
Odd thing for Gerry to remember when he can hardly remember his name when it matters. There’s always an ulterior motive with anything Gerry says so I’m just wondering if he put this little scenario forward in case they had been seen leaving the apartment anytime after Monday to go to the crèche sans Madeleine?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by NickE 24.01.17 21:55
roz wrote:Or did Clarence only agree that the trip took place because it allowed for the possibility of some ‘unsavoury’ character spotting Madeleine?
Snipped from The Sun December 2016
[size=41]"A focus of the inquiry is whether Madeleine, who vanished just days before her fourth birthday in May 2007, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][/size]
[size=41]One witness has claimed the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]"[/size]
Note: This witness said in the statement that someone took photos over the beach,he didn't claimed that this person took photos on children.
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She said she had never touched that window and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day....it doesn't add up"
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Grande Finale 27.01.17 23:51
@ May Muse
The Tapas was booked for the first time on Monday evening but when Maddie went to the creche in the afternoon they had to sign her out again 10 mins later, was she being "difficult" ?
Did she run out of the apartment at bedtime and hide in the bushes as the neighbours stated ?
Sounds like MBM was hyperactive and wasn't co-operating with the plan to leave her behind and alone in the apartment on Monday night, they weren't going to get out for dinner that evening where they ?
Where they tempted to slip her a sedative or a little something into her milk that night ? so they could go out on the piste with the group ?
The Tapas was booked for the first time on Monday evening but when Maddie went to the creche in the afternoon they had to sign her out again 10 mins later, was she being "difficult" ?
Did she run out of the apartment at bedtime and hide in the bushes as the neighbours stated ?
Sounds like MBM was hyperactive and wasn't co-operating with the plan to leave her behind and alone in the apartment on Monday night, they weren't going to get out for dinner that evening where they ?
Where they tempted to slip her a sedative or a little something into her milk that night ? so they could go out on the piste with the group ?
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by MayMuse 28.01.17 9:20
Thank you for all the info everyone. Monday has a ? Hanging over it in my opinion and after reading the links find it odd that Madeleine was missing for half an hour, that's a lengthy time for a parent to 'lose' a child and not frantically search or make enquiries, i.e. A commotion,calling out her name etc.
On top of which only ten minutes of play in the crèche?
Seems Madeleine was away from her parents far more than she was with them on that holiday!
On top of which only ten minutes of play in the crèche?
Seems Madeleine was away from her parents far more than she was with them on that holiday!
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Basil with a brush 30.01.17 3:48
After reading so much and so many alternative senarios (I do enjoy reading them) I am currently at the conclusion that I cannot and will not, tie myself to any. Most of them are pretty possible and there may be more yet. The only thing I can and will, tie myself to, is that the parents are lying through their back bleedin teeth. Sympathy for them, within just my small circle is all but lost. Even those who always used to say ''Nooooo, you're way off. She was kidnapped, poor parents.'' Nobody says that to me anymore. I do think the mother will eventually go insane though, and become far too vulnerable to continue with it all. Maybe then the father will end up on the run as a serial killer.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by joyce1938 30.01.17 9:53
Yes I think I feel the same now after so much written.just cant see an end to it really.I think if there wasenough to give real proof, it would have been over. Debating has always been good for us to try an make senseSadly never enought o take into court.No don't go calling me a Jonah ,so many have left and only reappear from time to time .joyc1938e
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by JRP 30.01.17 13:43
I don't know what happened to Madeleine, but I believe she died while on holiday, and her death occurred before Thursday.
Perhaps if one of the senior police officers would look at all the evidence collected on this forum, we might start to get somewhere.
I would have thought any decent police officer would look at Madeleine's "disappearance" from all angles, yet here we are, almost 10 years on and the parents or even their entourage haven't been asked one question.
Yes, they have all made statements, but nobody in authority has ever challenged their stories.
I don't think all this protection would be awarded to these two doctors without a larger reason, the protection isn't simply for them, it's for someone else, a much larger fish with secrets to keep.
Perhaps if one of the senior police officers would look at all the evidence collected on this forum, we might start to get somewhere.
I would have thought any decent police officer would look at Madeleine's "disappearance" from all angles, yet here we are, almost 10 years on and the parents or even their entourage haven't been asked one question.
Yes, they have all made statements, but nobody in authority has ever challenged their stories.
I don't think all this protection would be awarded to these two doctors without a larger reason, the protection isn't simply for them, it's for someone else, a much larger fish with secrets to keep.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Tony Bennett 30.01.17 13:59
Grande Finale wrote:@ May Muse
The Tapas was booked for the first time on Monday evening but when Maddie went to the creche in the afternoon they had to sign her out again 10 mins later, was she being "difficult" ?
REPLY: That is only relevant if you regard the crèche records as being 100% accurate.
Did she run out of the apartment at bedtime and hide in the bushes as the neighbours stated ?
REPLY: Did the neighbours state this? AFAIK this was only press reports from unnamed 'neighbours' - I don't think there is anything in the PJ files about this.
Sounds like MBM was hyperactive and wasn't co-operating with the plan to leave her behind and alone in the apartment on Monday night, they weren't going to get out for dinner that evening where they ?
REPLY: This is speculation based on (a) the assumed accuracy of the crèche records and (b) on the assumption that the neighbours' reports are accurate. IMO there is no basis for either assumption.
Where they tempted to slip her a sedative or a little something into her milk that night ? so they could go out on the piste with the group ?
REPLY: The only person independent of the Tapas 9 who claims to have seen Madeleine alive on Monday is Catriona Baker. Hmmm...
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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by JRP 30.01.17 15:19
Maybe someone in authority looked at the sheets that day, did a head count and with no Madeleine present she was signed out. Maybe they contacted the parents to check her whereabouts before signing her out.
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Basil with a brush 31.01.17 3:31
It's possible I've missed a thread relating more in depth to this one. I apologise if that's the case but, it would be far too interesting to read what everybody may think about the 'How?' and 'Where? regarding this.
How do you suppose she was hidden?
How exactly did they do that?
Where does she now rest?
Or (Lord forbid) she doesn't rest as an intact body at all.
Thoughts please
Basil
How do you suppose she was hidden?
How exactly did they do that?
Where does she now rest?
Or (Lord forbid) she doesn't rest as an intact body at all.
Thoughts please
Basil
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Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?
by Grande Finale 01.02.17 1:11
Tony Bennett wrote:Grande Finale wrote:
The Tapas was booked for the first time on Monday evening but when Maddie went to the creche in the afternoon they had to sign her out again 10 mins later, was she being "difficult" ?
REPLY: That is only relevant if you regard the crèche records as being 100% accurate.
Yes I quite agree, so why would anyone fake the Monday pm creche records to show that she was signed out very shortly after she was signed in ? It was a major red flag if they had ever been questioned about it !
I think Sunday & Monday Creche records are genuine and if something happened on Monday night that only leaves Tues Wed & Thur to fake.
On two of those days MBM is never signed out & the other day Signing in and out occur on consecutive lines. These two lines could have originally been the gap between Am & Pm Later filled in ?
Did she run out of the apartment at bedtime and hide in the bushes as the neighbours stated ?
REPLY: Did the neighbours state this? AFAIK this was only press reports from unnamed 'neighbours' - I don't think there is anything in the PJ files
about this.
I don't personally think the answers lie solely in the PJ files sometimes rumour has it [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Sounds like MBM was hyperactive and wasn't co-operating with the plan to leave her behind and alone in the apartment on Monday night, they weren't going to get out for dinner that evening where they ?
REPLY: This is speculation based on (a) the assumed accuracy of the crèche records and (b) on the assumption that the neighbours' reports are accurate. IMO there is no basis for either assumption.
So far I believe my speculation is holding up it is based on more than the above and it also makes sound sense.
ie an accident unfortunately happened Monday night the first time they left MBM alone.
Where they tempted to slip her a sedative or a little something into her milk that night ? so they could go out on the piste with the group ?
REPLY: The only person independent of the Tapas 9 who claims to have seen Madeleine alive on Monday is Catriona Baker. Hmmm...
The amount of people that definitely should have seen MBM on Tues Wed & Thur and DIDN'T is totally astounding IMO
PS. If the steel exec PE gave a photograph of his sons to the police showing MBM in the background then why isn't it in the police files ?
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Similar topics» Marcos Correia's book, and his visions of Madeleine. Two sections from the Madeleine Foundation's essay about this strange man who amongst other things was paid by Metodo 3 to conduct a fruitless but highly publicised search of the Arade Dam for Madeleine
» Assuming Madeleine died, how do we know one of the other little girls belonging to one of the group wasn't paraded as Madeleine?
» That highly inappropriate photo of Madeleine - Madeleine Foundation letter to Clarence Mitchell
» Are police any closer to finding Madeleine? Watch Oxygen's Madeleine McCann: 10 Years Later on Sat., Nov. 4
» ANOTHER TV programme about Madeleine - Tuesday 18 November, 7pm, Channel 5 - 'Madeleine McCann: A Global Obsession'
» Assuming Madeleine died, how do we know one of the other little girls belonging to one of the group wasn't paraded as Madeleine?
» That highly inappropriate photo of Madeleine - Madeleine Foundation letter to Clarence Mitchell
» Are police any closer to finding Madeleine? Watch Oxygen's Madeleine McCann: 10 Years Later on Sat., Nov. 4
» ANOTHER TV programme about Madeleine - Tuesday 18 November, 7pm, Channel 5 - 'Madeleine McCann: A Global Obsession'
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