Re: What do YOU think happened to Madeleine?

by Verdi 26.10.17 12:50

silverdoe wrote:So the fact There's no flight record of Diane Webster and the fact that David Payne arranged the holiday and the fact that the Gasper's said he said that and the fact that Yvonne Warren Martin, a child abuse expert recognised him, and the fact he called the child abuse UK on the 4th for a minute and a half and was as inconsistent as the McCann's in their statement's mean nothing?

To what aspect of the mystery does this relate?

Dianne Webster made her own flight arrangements. I don't think the flight details contained in the PJ files reflect a true picture of the comings and goings of guests at the Ocean Club, therefore nothing constructive can be gained.

Yes, allegedly David Payne did make the arrangements for the group's holiday to the Ocean Club.

Yes, the Gaspers did make individual statements about David Payne's behaviour on a previous holiday.

Yvonne Martin's credibility is the subject of ambiguity. Above all else, one has to wonder why, as a professional in the field of child care, she sent an anonymous letter to the UK police about David Payne.

As far as I'm aware, the only detailed reference to David Payne's phone call to the UK in the early hours is recorded in his rogatory interview in April 2008 [snipped]..

1485 "Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you couldn't find in your phone''
Reply "Yes.'

1485 "That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist Director in London.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "Did you contact them''
Reply "Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact with them and she was trying to do everything that she could knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err I can't remember, I don't think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for some reason that wasn't carried forward.'

1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you know we're in a strange country, we've got no representeers we don't know what's going on, all hell's broken loose and you know to see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you know and that was the lines that we were taking.'

1485 "Do you remember who you spoke to''
Reply "I don't know.'

1485 "The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so that's late at night.'
Reply "Mm.'

1485 "You don't recollect anything else about the conversation that you had with that, was it you that made the call''
Reply "Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I did you know ring them but I can't remember making one late at night.'
----------

It would be extremely helpful if you could confirm where the information about Payne calling "child abuse UK" comes from.

by Guest 26.10.17 13:19

David Payne was there, central to the story? Or am I missing something?
The blog I found the phone call on is here http://thetapas9drdavidpayne.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/mccann-david-payne-phoned-metropolitan.html
And Yvonne has 25 years experience, and many many files were held back
from the McCanns by the PJ, its on the man ref page,

by Guest 26.10.17 13:20

Oh and if David made that odd call in innocence, why lie about it?

by polyenne 26.10.17 13:31

Verdi - the Crime Specialist Directorate encompassed several departments including Child Abuse Investigation Command. It also included the Dog Support Unit !!

Mark Rowley has been, and still is, part of the leadership.

It encompasses many departments The question remain, why would any member of the general public know to call that specific number, at that time of night and not recall who they spoke to ?

by Guest 26.10.17 13:34

Polyenne thank you for putting it better than I could! I still also stand by, if nothing to hide, you don't need the to lie or stammer or so many errrsss during one small part of an interview, the truth is easy, lies are far from it

by polyenne 26.10.17 13:37

I am of the opinion, out of the Tapas 7, that David Payne is a key facilitator

by Guest 26.10.17 13:41

Polyenne so am I - And I truly do think it odd too, why Dianne Webster went alone and why there are no records of her flight details? The creche records have been dissected thoroughly and raise many questions. But what about some of the other printed records produced by the Ocean Club and Faro Airport? Why do/would OC printouts produced (particularly those between 27 April and 3 May 2007) show irregularities if this were a 'simple' case of a child being abducted on the evening of 3 May? Why are airport records for outbound and return flights apparently so confused?

I'll start with the Faro Airport printout produced on 28 September 2007, found at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Although this was printed out in September, the details should simply show the original booked date/flight numbers in and out for the 17 members of the group i.e. one would expect 28 April in from Gatwick and EMA, and 5 May back to the same. The second set of details should show the corrected date/flight numbers home for the group.

Actual details show:
- no mention of Dianne Webster (possibly PJ didn't include her name in the request);
- no record of Grace Oldfield at all and Scarlet Payne's details missing (possibly don't show on records due to age);
- no booking date for the Oldfield/O'Brien party;
- arrival date and booking date for the McCann family shown as consecutive days (possibly GM details input and rest filled by default):
-original planned departure date for Gerry McCann shown as 5 June 2007 rather than 5 May and no listed details for rest of McCann family (misprint or ?);
-original arrival date for rest of McCann family not showing;
-no show not recorded for Payne family on 5 May;
-no record of the Payne family's actual return flights on 22 May;
-17 May return flight shows as consecutive dates;
-no record of Russell O'Brien's return flight on 17 May;
-'2 bebes' shown as returning with the Oldfield/O'Brien party on 17 May (Grace Oldfield and who else?);
-for the record, Rachael Oldfield appears to have returned to Luton rather than Gatwick.

The highlighted date stands out - why would the original return date show as Tuesday 5 June rather than Saturday 5 May?

by polyenne 26.10.17 13:48

Indeed Silverdoe, the whole thing from start to finish is what is commonly called a ShitSack (apologies for my poor grasp of Portuguese !!)

Given the layer upon layer of discrepancy, obfuscation and probable downright lying, I think the PJ (and especially Goncalo Amaral) should be awarded the highest possible accolades for even getting close to sorting the wheat from the chaff (so close in fact that he was "removed" before he could get any further).

by Guest 26.10.17 13:54

Gerry famously said Polyenne, Confusion is good! For them of course it was!
I agree, the PJ done well to get as far as they did considering Murat, Tanner, Payne and the UK governments and intervention so swift on foreign territory!
The tapas 9 and the full details are central to the case and the fact that O.G farce haven't interviewed them from the start means it was a washout from the get go.
Especially not interviewing Kate and Gerry - Yes, maybe they would be worried of more ridiculous lies and the case would look even worse?
Imo? No flight records for Diane and the two children are significant why not?

by Guest 26.10.17 14:15

If a little girl goes missing in a situation that's shady to say the least, let's wonder this, why are THREE witnesses doubted and ONE of the group who's involved not?

[size=30][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] :David Payne Phoned The Metropolitan Police Child Abuse Team On May 4th 2007 at 23:13:41 for 100 seconds.....[/size]

[size=15].......And when questioned about this call by Leicestershire police, David Payne tried to deny it but when questioned further Payne was forced to admit he had made that call .

--------------

Statement from social worker Yvonne Warren Martin, who thought she recognised David Payne...Yvonne saw Payne in the morning and by the evening Payne was himself ringing 'child abuse' ...possibly Payne also recognised Yvonne.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Snippet : The phone call from Paynes rogatory...
[size=1][size=15]1485
"In[size=16][size=13]P ortu gal? ”[/size]

Reply
"The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted
me which I didn‟t mention while I was at the Police Station was one
of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you
know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you
know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of
Simon ALDRIDGE‟S who you know who kindly bought the phones
and they actually bought the phones to the Portimão Police Station
and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them
back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them
on the next day sorry, was that the question?”

1485
"Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that
Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.”

Reply
"Right.”
1485

"That‟s when, well, there‟s text messages but what I‟m asking you is,
did you speak to them?”

00:22:29 Reply
"Err I don‟t remember having any text conversation with any err
Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they,
sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke with
was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the
conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because
that was a friend of their family who they, they‟ve got[size=13] a business in[/size]
the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if you need any err
Portuguese advice then there‟s err Paolo, and again I‟ve got his
number in my other phone which might clarify that bit.”

1485
"Yeah.”

Reply
"And err he err and I did speak to him again after that day so it may
well have been him just to say oh you know do you want any help,
do you want any advice, and err and that you know that‟s how it was
left at that, that stage so that might have been, piecing it together
from what you‟re saying.”

1485
"Do you recall me telling you about the London number, which you
couldn‟t find in your phone?”

Reply
"Yes.”

00:24:00 1485

"That number actually transcribes back to the Crime Specialist

Director in[size=10]London.”
Reply
"Mm.”
1485
"Did you contact them?”
Reply
"Err I did yes. My, err you know my sister err had been in contact
with them and she was trying to do everything that she could
knowing the, err, the difficulties that we were having out there so
you know I did approach them just asking for advice but err[size=16][size=10] I can‟t[/size]
remember, I don‟t think I actually spoke to anyone there, but for
some reason that wasn‟t carried forward.”
1485
"Yeah.”
Reply
"But I mean, you know, just into the context of the conversation you
know we‟re in a strange country, we‟ve[size=10] got no representeers we[/size]
don‟t know what‟s going on, all hell‟s broken loose and you know to
see whether you can do anything to help Madeleine come back, you
know and that was the lines that we were taking.”
1485
"Do you remember who you spoke to?”
Reply
"I don‟t know.”
1485
"The call was made on the following day at twenty three thirteen, so
that‟s late at night.”
Reply
"Mm.”
1485
"You don‟t recollect anything else about the conversation that you
had with that, was it you that made the call?”
Reply
"Err I, yeah I know that I got phone numbers from my sister which I
did you know ring them but I can‟t remember making one late at
night.”[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

by polyenne 26.10.17 15:01

Silverdoe, as Verdi has pointed out we have to be careful about stating that he called the "Child Abuse Team". The number called could have been patched to a "team" dealing with other issues.

Nevertheless, the ums, oos, ers, and aahs are a psychologist's dream

by Liz Eagles 26.10.17 15:09

polyenne wrote:Silverdoe, as Verdi has pointed out we have to be careful about stating that he called the "Child Abuse Team". The number called could have been patched to a "team" dealing with other issues.

Nevertheless, the ums, oos, ers, and aahs are a psychologist's dream

I agree and I'd also add the pretty poor interviewing technique at the rogatory interviews was a bit of an eye-opener.

by Guest 26.10.17 15:20

I know I just think from that psychologist's view, if you counted up the amount of oos ers ums and aahs and even gosh's wow, they'd be enough there for a book larger than the bible! It's impossible to think that any of these are well spoken and articulate in these interviews isn't it?

by Guest 26.10.17 15:21

Also shall I remove the comment? As I don't wish to offend anyone so I don't mind doing so

by polyenne 26.10.17 15:24

Aquila - the rogatory interviews pretty much paid lip-service to what they really should have been.....a 2nd chance to record the viewpoint of the Tapas 7. Unfortunately, the moment the clandestine meeting was convened prior to those interviews, that all went out the window.....WHOOOSH !!

Perhaps those police interviewers now look back with extreme embarrassment since it's all laid bare. Quite pathetic.

by Verdi 26.10.17 15:46

silverdoe wrote:David Payne was there, central to the story? Or am I missing something?
The blog I found the phone call on is here http://thetapas9drdavidpayne.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/mccann-david-payne-phoned-metropolitan.html
And Yvonne has 25 years experience, and many many files were held back
from the McCanns by the PJ, its on the man ref page,

Is this a reply to my post silverdoe?

If so, apologies if I didn't make myself clear. The wording of your previous post didn't seem to relate to anything in particular i.e a response to a another member's comments.

You said.. "he called the child abuse UK". As I replied, as far as I'm aware, there is no evidence to verify this claim. A bloggers interpretation of Payne's rogatory interview unfortunately doesn't qualify as verification. Nor does it indicate anywhere that he lied about making the telephone call. I can't remember is not the same as I didn't make the call. The Crime Unit covers numerous areas, it's not known who he spoke to - if anyone. The time of night would indicate if he spoke to anyone at all, it would have been only a night duty officer

The PJ files do not state that many files were held back from the McCanns - the mere notion is preposterous. Following archival of a criminal investigation, at the time of the case of Madeleine McCann, the release of files for public perusal was routine procedure under Portuguese law. Any documentation secreted would have been through a point in law, for example detail of sex offenders, individuals with a criminal record or anything that might compromise the identity of a witness or suspect etc. There is no knowing just how many pages were retained in accordance with Portuguese legal requirements - to suggests there were many many files held back with nefarious implications is an act of folly.

Yvonne Martin's 25 years experience has no bearing on her actions. Apart from the unprofessional act of sending the UK police an anonymous letter, you have to wonder why she took it upon herself to muscle in on the very next day, Friday 4th May. Just like Robert Murat, she appeared out of the blue offering her 'unofficial' services. There is something very curious about Yvonne Martin's involvement.

by Verdi 26.10.17 15:54

silverdoe wrote:
Gerry famously said Polyenne, Confusion is good!

Gerry McCann never said 'confusion is good'. That is a forum myth born out of this..

Gerry McCann Interview

"The current level of activity, you know, I think you're absolutely right, there is a huge amount of innuendo which is being presented in various ways, suggesting that there may be evidence or facts behind it and there are none, and our opinion of what happened that night has not changed.

We know certain facts, unfortunately because of the criminal investigation, we can't divulge them, and I want to make it absolutely clear, the reasons why we're not divulging the information; we will not make it easier for the perpetrator to cover their tracks. The police have all the information and we have bared our soul to them, and we'll continue to assist them in any way possible, but, you know, we have to keep silent.

And, in fact, one of the slight positives in... in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not."

by willowthewisp 26.10.17 15:56

polyenne wrote:Aquila - the rogatory interviews pretty much paid lip-service to what they really should have been.....a 2nd chance to record the viewpoint of the Tapas 7. Unfortunately, the moment the clandestine meeting was convened prior to those interviews, that all went out the window.....WHOOOSH !!

Perhaps those police interviewers now look back with extreme embarrassment since it's all laid bare. Quite pathetic.

Hi Polyenne,We have the Portuguese to blame for finding out about the errs,Ahas,those Sardine munches of four hr lunches were very incompetent wasn't they,that they managed to disclose all of those files for "Public consumption"?

That must have pissed Clarence off,that one day all of this information would be revealed,that all of his fine spoken PR Bull Sh*t,has been shown,spread so deep on the surface,for the MSM flies to hover over laying their rotten eggs,to hatch into a new batch of filthy lies,don't forget those big"Bluebottles"they love to feast on only one type of **ite,espoused from certain parties now sealed lips?

by Guest 26.10.17 16:04

So forgive me if I'm wrong here, if we discount the rogatory's, if the police questioned them again, would we discount that too?If it's true that they're not official, then I will delete the comment made I just don't understand the points made about the rogatory's to be honest

by Guest 26.10.17 16:07

Oh and Verdi, I will also say, it doesn't matter if he made the phone call, I said,
why lie about making it?

by willowthewisp 26.10.17 16:22

silverdoe wrote:

Oh and Verdi, I will also say, it doesn't matter if he made the phone call, I said,
why lie about making it?

hi silverdoe,it sort of slipped David's mind,that phone call,but what is more interesting is that DCI 1485,knew of this phone call,but when asking David at his interview in April 2008,"that this information,(phone call)wasn't relevant or Pertinent to missing,Madeleine,within that forum,similar to the Gasper and other statements, at DCI 1485 disposal,that shone no light into what had happened in Portugal,of who was in the apartment,"When the Husband returned,but whose Husband"?

by Guest 26.10.17 16:27

Hi Willowthewisp - It was an odd attachment I have to say, and I did make sure
that I read the full rogatory before I took it as gospel or true should I say? But, it is a while since I read
them so may do so again this week - It was linked to the Gasper's and Yvonne's that the only reason I found all three plausible, odd yes, but plausible.
I'm always happy to be proven wrong tho as cases like this are what do drive
the conspiracy theorists nuts!

by polyenne 26.10.17 16:37

Verdi - for one who strives so much for the facts (which is admirable) but so easily discounts others assumptions/interpretations/opinions/viewpoints (call it what you will) why should I not take issue with your very own assumption that the person DP spoke to late that night "would have been only a night duty officer" ?

by Guest 26.10.17 16:45

I will say this - My views aren't conspiracy or MSM made, they're from blogs, forums AND the files. Not all of us are MSM hound dogs, or conspiracy theorists,
like many it's about getting to the truth.
If I'm wrong about the confusion is good, I'm glad, but any police force or psychiatrist would look into David's past or present to see if any remarks are
credible - If the people making the statement's were to be discounted for making them and if the people involved lied or if their actions are odd.
The rogatory statement's are there, included, not discounted, we all read things in a different way maybe?
That's why discussions are healthy, discuss, elimination, leaving in, credible etc.
I never belittle another person's point of view and I'm never ever right on everything I say, but surely we all read the same things and can agree that the tapas group, every single member, they were there, everything had to be questioned and the words and actions of each member do have to be scrutinised? The great thing about the world is, not everyone has to agree, but that doesn't mean not everyone doesn't have a valid point on how they see an incident, even if it may be different from yours :-)

by willowthewisp 26.10.17 16:46

silverdoe wrote:Hi Willowthewisp - It was an odd attachment I have to say, and I did make sure
that I read the full rogatory before I took it as gospel or true should I say? But, it is a while since I read
them so may do so again this week - It was linked to the Gasper's and Yvonne's that the only reason I found all three plausible, odd yes, but plausible.
I'm always happy to be proven wrong tho as cases like this are what do drive
the conspiracy theorists nuts!

I don't find it plausible for someone else's Parent is"Eager" assistant to be present helping overburdened Kate at possible"Bath Time/Shower"who he had seen jog past him,a tad earlier? "I say Gerry old bean,do you mind if I go to assist Kate,whilst your playing Tennis,do you",yeah that's fine Dave,dive in there why don't yer?

There are quite a few"Seemingly innocent"explanations,around bath time incidents or sleeping patterns," Where were you when(Madeleine)woke up, to "When Madeleine,Sean,were crying"there is a difference,One child who has disappeared,cannot confirm the event,to the other child being too young to remember?Was that when she woke up? Kids crying being put to bed? to"If the child had an accident and we wasn't present,why would that be Our fault? Now doesn't that not sound any alarm bells,ding,ding,top quality parenting,Not, the last statement was caught on video.fact?
So how do you retract from that in future evidence?

by Guest 26.10.17 16:54

Willowthewisp - My friends and I took our kids on holiday, I trust my friends
with my life, but, with bathing children I have always done mine myself when
young and if they were at a sisters or grandparent's, that's different, but the
Gasper's hardly knew the Payne's, I found that very odd (If it happened) to
allow someone you don't hardly know to bathe your children.
But then I ask, what did the Gasper's have to gain by lying about their statements?
I don't even know what to make of the so called Payne visit, after all, again, Kate says one thing, David says another - This is why things are taken out of context, because nothing adds up.
Madeleine and Sean, then just Sean or Madeleine, I can't remember which tbh, door locked, door unlocked, 15 min, half an hour.....
Seemingly innocent or not? It does have to be taken into account to rule it in or out and you do have to look at everything logically, does it make sense? No. Then why not? That's the question!!

by Guest 26.10.17 17:09

silverdoe wrote:
[size=1][size=15]The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted
[size=15]me which I didn‟t mention while I was at the Police Station was one
of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you
know for comments and err [/size][/size][/size][size=1][size=15]so that could have been what the, you
know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of
Simon ALDRIDGE‟S who you know who kindly bought the phones
and they actually bought the phones to the Portimão Police Station
and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them
back upstairs.

--------

00:22:29 Reply
"Err I don‟t remember having any text conversation with any err
Portuguese newspapers so I presume that Portuguese number, they,
sorry yeah the other, the, the other Portuguese person I spoke with
was err there was err a Solicitor in err Lisbon who err the
conversation it may well have been with Lisa LACARNIE because
that was a friend of their family who they, they‟ve got[size=13] a business in
the UK but they deal with Portugal and Lisa said if you need any err
Portuguese advice then there‟s err Paolo, and again I‟ve got his
number in my other phone which might clarify that bit.”
[/size][/size][/size]

Just to add some info to these, as you quoted them.

The 'paper' referenced is a short call (78 secs) at 18:41 between David and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who are affiliated with Jornal de Noticias and Diario de Noticias. No stories, so far as I have been able to find, were written by any of the aforementioned until [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

Lisa Lakhani (spelt wrong in document) is a friend of theirs in Leicester. Night of the 4th there's a call at 20:56 between David and the company number for [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (see Anexo 53). Later in the night are texts with Paulo Goncalves, so it follows it's the same Paulo that he references (credit goes to Kiko for finding this). If, as David says, he got the phones while at the station, then it doesn't make sense to assume Paulo was the source of the phones, since David was talking for 383 seconds with the MPMG landline, which is in Abrantes (near Fatima) around the time he says they were delivered - a 3 h 23 min car journey according to Google.

by willowthewisp 26.10.17 17:10

silverdoe wrote:Willowthewisp - My friends and I took our kids on holiday, I trust my friends
with my life, but, with bathing children I have always done mine myself when
young and if they were at a sisters or grandparent's, that's different, but the
Gasper's hardly knew the Payne's, I found that very odd (If it happened) to
allow someone you don't hardly know to bathe your children.
But then I ask, what did the Gasper's have to gain by lying about their statements?
I don't even know what to make of the so called Payne visit, after all, again, Kate says one thing, David says another - This is why things are taken out of context, because nothing adds up.
Madeleine and Sean, then just Sean or Madeleine, I can't remember which tbh, door locked, door unlocked, 15 min, half an hour.....
Seemingly innocent or not? It does have to be taken into account to rule it in or out and you do have to look at everything logically, does it make sense? No. Then why not? That's the question!!

Hi silverdoe,if normal every day people can see"gaps in statements" yet fully qualified Police personnel,at interviews cannot pick up on,or choose not to be relevant,as part of the investigation,then its the proverbial slippery slope to oblivion,which is where we are at today's point?
The only doubts everyone in the UK must have at the present moment after funding of over £12 Million pounds is the"Transparency Test"of what has or has Not been disclosed?
As here in the UK,the Police never"Reveal,what they have or Not found",I understand that you never reveal all of your evidence until in Open Court,but when the Police release virtually nothing after Six Years and any questions directed of their accountability is then"Hidden By disclosure of Evidence"clauses,they need to be held accountable for their actions or inactions?

by Guest 26.10.17 17:16

Willowthewisp - This is what's confusing, what we have or haven't been told?
What are lies, twists, half truths or the truth?
The 12 mil is an issue understandably with many. But also we can read the statements and see the discrepancies in the statements, and whilst in normal cases it can happen, in this case the amount of discrepancies there do see again,
to many, like lies.
Even experts with years of experience, body language experts, ex police or investigators etc have stated nothing about the tapas groups statement's adds up - So why haven't O.G interviewed them again?
I'm not an official with the case so I wouldn't know why they were held back, all I know is, look at the page numbering's. A lot are missing

by willowthewisp 26.10.17 17:25

silverdoe wrote:Willowthewisp - This is what's confusing, what we have or haven't been told?
What are lies, twists, half truths or the truth?
The 12 mil is an issue understandably with many. But also we can read the statements and see the discrepancies in the statements, and whilst in normal cases it can happen, in this case the amount of discrepancies there do see again,
to many, like lies.
Even experts with years of experience, body language experts, ex police or investigators etc have stated nothing about the tapas groups statement's adds up - So why haven't O.G interviewed them again?
I'm not an official with the case so I wouldn't know why they were held back, all I know is, look at the page numbering's. A lot are missing

Remember"Hillsborough",then there is Orgrveve,unsolved murder of Daniel Morgan,30 years of deception,over nearly Six full terms of Office of various Governments,deliberate systematic abuse processes,Over 800 Million pounds in collapsed Trails,wake up people it is your money that has been wasted,with Political affiliations very close to a Media mogul?