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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

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Post by Verdi 13.09.22 17:30

onehand wrote:something about a certain actor you once did see without clothes on and a flower in/on his bum?

laugh

Ah yes, I remember it well ....

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Post by CaKeLoveR 13.09.22 17:35

I've seen one actor in such a setting, he was Wilfred Hyde White in a Carry On film. The floral arrangement was courtesy of Matron Hattie Jacques. laugh
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Post by Verdi 14.09.22 12:41

onehand wrote:are you sure verdi, you had an opinion on the tv series the cry, i can only find one of you about the missing.

You could well be right onehand, it does get a bit foggy at times confused .

I blame climate change!

I have seen both films, The Cry and Missing - he of anal shrubbery.  The former many times because it was being streamed on a platform I used to subscribe to - they have a tendency to repeat shows one hundredfold.

Either, I couldn't really see any connection with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, if you look hard enough you can always find something to cling to, or weave into the never ending story.

As you say, it's an authors prerogative to call on real life crime cases to build a foundation for the novel or film script - and they do, always.  Poetic licence.  The minds of the public have indeed been saturated by this case, aided and abetted by the parents McCann and their propagandists in chief .... the media!

The Shergar simile is spot on.

Now,  talk madeleine by KATE MCCANN and we might be on to something ....

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Post by Verdi 17.09.22 13:58

Not forgetting to include Gerry McCann's blog that was, not in novel book form but nonetheless interesting to compare notes with his wife's version of the truth events..

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The full monty is stored chronologically for posterity on pamalam's gerrymccannsblog.

Good read..

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hat

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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 9:59

Hi all, a few things I'm struggling with:

1. Richard's film mentions gloves and a syringe found in the McCann's follow up apartment after they moved from 5A. I cannot seem to find any evidence to back this, anyone know anything on this?

2. Is there documented evidence that explains Gerry was refusing to have his twins tested, and that this was done 5 months later? Google searches just show me "We can prove we are innocent" articles with no details of timelines.

This is to support a portion of the film. I'm collating items that can back every single point made, I want to ensure this is thoroughly researched and essentially not be a situation where 1 incorrect statement jeopardise the validity of the entire film.
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Post by Verdi 18.09.22 15:11

Firstly if I may say, no one is expected nor obliged to agree with every detail documented by CMOMM/MMRG research.  With little confirmed fact and evidence to work on, much is conjecture deduced by logical thinking and informed opinion - it's wise to be cautious.

Point 1:

No, there was never a syringe found in the holiday apartment/s occupied by the McCanns anytime during their Portuguese sojourn, I can't begin to imagine where such nonsense emanates but I'm guessing mischief was a forethought.

For accuracy of reportage, look no further than the Portugal Resident, usually presented by journalist Natasha Donn - always finger on the pulse.

Claims that medication found in McCanns apartment

By shareit - 30th August 2007

REPORTS IN Portuguese national newspaper Correio da Manhã claim that Judicial Police officers found a syringe with tranquilizer medication on a bedside table in the McCanns apartment, where Madeleine went missing.

However, there is no indication when this is alleged to have been found. The Resident spoke to Olegário Sousa, spokesperson for the investigation, who said that he could not confirm nor comment on press reports.

It has been widely reported that Gerry McCann stormed off a television set during an interview with Spanish television, after the host asked him about the blood that was allegedly found in the apartment. He left Kate on the stage on her own but returned later to complete the interview in a calmer state.

Sousa said that they were “are all waiting for news” on the test results of the DNA evidence that was taken to Birmingham, England, adding that patience was important at this stage.

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The latex gloves continue to this day to be an enigma, personally I think it yet another creation of an over imaginative mind.

The pair of latex gloves was photographed by the forensic team inspecting the villa occupied by the McCanns..

Official document of search and seizure.

Inspector: Joao Carlos
Date: 02 August 2007
Place: Rua das Flores, 27

Officers: Tavares de Almeida, Vitor Matos, Joao Carlos, Carlos Dordonnat, Carla Brito (Interpreter)

Consent given by: Gerry McCann

Legal formalities having been observed a search was undertaken.

The following describes in detail the number and quality of papers or detected objects, and the exact place of the same with the seizure declaration and indication of how they were packed up:

- The present search was started at 18h00.

- The residence comprised: entrance hall; a WC (01) on the left; twins' bedroom; visitors' bedroom with WC en suite; master bedroom [bedroom of the couple]; lounge; dining area; WC and kitchen.

- All outside rooms [annexes] searched nothing was seized.

- OBJECTS FOR EXAMINATION

1. One (01) pink cloth toy, with yellow paws and ears and blue label, make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

2. Clothes, shoes, bags [hand-bags; suitcases] and travel bags [knapsacks] that were packed as follows:

- Lounge, two boxes.
- Master bedroom, two boxes.
- Twins' bedroom, one suitcase.
- Visitors' bedroom, one suitcase.
3. Various papers.
- One bible, bedside table of the master bedroom.
- Two diaries and a notepad that was found in the cupboard of the master bedroom.
- On pair of latex gloves, that was found in a drawer of a bedside table of the visitors' bedroom.
- There being nothing more to record, the present activity was ended at 20h30.
- This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be duly signed.
(four signatures)

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Over a period of time, the latex glove was embellished in the world of cybersleuths.  It has been suggested Gerry McCann was photographed wearing a latex glove, or something similar, during the trip they made to Huelva, Spain.  The matter is very much open to difference of opinion, personally I don't think it signifies.

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Point 2:

As with most aspects of this case, conflicting reportage, commentary and opinion differs widely.  Over the years it's become commonplace for the spoken word to be isolated, thus misconstrued when taken out of context.

I'm not entirely sure whether your question can be answered through official documentation, that's to say the Portuguese investigation files.  Across the board many versions of the story of sedation have been raised, in particular Gerry and/or Kate McCann's reluctance to have the twins tested until too late, that would be the implication.  The issue is again obscured by the very many versions of the same story spewed forth.

Snr Amaral had this to say during an interview in May 2009, which covers both your points raised..

Gonçalo Amaral in Amsterdam, 05 May 2009

Q: Is it true, as was reported in De Telegraaf, that an injection needle was found in the apartment?

A: No, that is not true. In fact we have found no medication at all. None at all. Except for 'likdoornpleisters' = litt.: corn plasters (for your feet - sorry can't find a better translation).

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?

A: There is no doubt.

(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

I'll have a look around for anything in the documented files that might confirm the sedation test allegations, when I have more time. Meanwhile I'm sure other members will have something to contribute.

thumbsup

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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 15:35

I wanted to contribute to this.

For context, I work with software, websites - it's my world.

There is no way that a website will publish something like this without human intervention.  

Wayback machine is built on an algorithm that picks up data published on a website in real time. It uses bots and crawlers to find the information.

For this "mistake" to of happened, we are deducing that not only Wayback machine got it wrong, but so did the CEOP website. That to me seems very unlikely.

Have there been other instances where Wayback machine has gotten this wrong? If so, can someone verify or link this so I can understand?

What typically happens with content is that you schedule content before it goes live on a website. Example, I'm releasing something next week, I do the write up today.

Wayback machine has detected that this article was written on that date.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

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Topic moved to Joeyxoto's thread.

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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 15:41

DeanSwift wrote:
Cammerigal wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:Maybe my first post was too long and technical.

Can anyone explain why Jim Gamble created a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files to put images of Madeleine McCann in?


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This folder was not used in another CEOP pages, so was not some multi-purpose folder used by many pages.

It was a folder created specifically for the McCann page.

And it's dated April 30, 2007.

If that isn't a smoking gun, I'm not quite sure what is.

BTW, the answer to my question is that Gamble did not create that folder.
This is indeed affirmative evidence, from my systems specialist perspective. Well done @"deansmith".
The file and folder name incorporates a date code, April 30 2007, which is good IT practice by a practitioner to provision the web page by a less competent person as of course, there may be many folders and pictures. 
Logically, to support the Gamble argument, the coder should have provisioned that folder or file name on at least May 3rd, the alleged "abduction" night.

Thanks Cammerigal for acknowledging and understanding the significance of the folder name.

At this stage, I would like to clarify the conclusions that can be drawn from it.

1. We can conclude fairly safely that an external web designer (vendor or provisioner) sent CEOP a folder of files called CEOP-April-30-2007_files on April 30, 2007.

2. We cannot conclude from the folder name alone when the page was commissioned or uploaded.

3. We cannot be sure of CEOP's motives for commissioning the page. Maybe it was just a strategic decision to move into the missing children space and the timing of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann was coincidental, fortuitous or "ironic", as CEO Paul Tuohy said when he relaunched Missing People in May 2007. Inspection of CEOP's home page and What We Do page at the time reveal absolutely no interest in missing children. Maybe it wasn't. We just don't know at this stage.

4. We can assume that the delivered CEOP-April-30-2007.html file did not contain any references to Madeleine McCann, as that would've alerted the external web designer to a criminal conspiracy. The web designer probably left placeholders in all relevant places in the file with instructions to CEOP on how to edit the file.

5. None of the above presupposes any criminal act. Jim Gamble was perfectly entitled to make the strategic decison to move into missing children and to commission a missing child template page in preparation for a missing child case.

A lot of the above may seem obvious, but I think it's useful to define the parameters of what we know and what we don't or can't know.

If there are no objections or questions, I think we should now proceed to the next issue of identifying the actual date of the upload of the page in the light of our new understanding of how the page was created, delivered and edited.

Just on this; 

Are we saying that the folder was coincidentally created and then Madeleine's images were added? 

Because if that's the case, then why did Wayback machine find the article on the 29th? 

We can't have one without the other. I.e. if the folder shows madeleine and its dated April 30th, this further clarifies the Wayback machine article. 

Am I missing something?
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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 16:04

Verdi wrote:Firstly if I may say, no one is expected nor obliged to agree with every detail documented by CMOMM/MMRG research.  With little confirmed fact and evidence to work on, much is conjecture deduced by logical thinking and informed opinion - it's wise to be cautious.

Point 1:

No, there was never a syringe found in the holiday apartment/s occupied by the McCanns anytime during their Portuguese sojourn, I can't begin to imagine where such nonsense emanates but I'm guessing mischief was a forethought.

For accuracy of reportage, look no further than the Portugal Resident, usually presented by journalist Natasha Donn - always finger on the pulse.

Claims that medication found in McCanns apartment

By shareit - 30th August 2007

REPORTS IN Portuguese national newspaper Correio da Manhã claim that Judicial Police officers found a syringe with tranquilizer medication on a bedside table in the McCanns apartment, where Madeleine went missing.

However, there is no indication when this is alleged to have been found. The Resident spoke to Olegário Sousa, spokesperson for the investigation, who said that he could not confirm nor comment on press reports.

It has been widely reported that Gerry McCann stormed off a television set during an interview with Spanish television, after the host asked him about the blood that was allegedly found in the apartment. He left Kate on the stage on her own but returned later to complete the interview in a calmer state.

Sousa said that they were “are all waiting for news” on the test results of the DNA evidence that was taken to Birmingham, England, adding that patience was important at this stage.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The latex gloves continue to this day to be an enigma, personally I think it yet another creation of an over imaginative mind.

The pair of latex gloves was photographed by the forensic team inspecting the villa occupied by the McCanns..

Official document of search and seizure.

Inspector: Joao Carlos
Date: 02 August 2007
Place: Rua das Flores, 27

Officers: Tavares de Almeida, Vitor Matos, Joao Carlos, Carlos Dordonnat, Carla Brito (Interpreter)

Consent given by: Gerry McCann

Legal formalities having been observed a search was undertaken.

The following describes in detail the number and quality of papers or detected objects, and the exact place of the same with the seizure declaration and indication of how they were packed up:

- The present search was started at 18h00.

- The residence comprised: entrance hall; a WC (01) on the left; twins' bedroom; visitors' bedroom with WC en suite; master bedroom [bedroom of the couple]; lounge; dining area; WC and kitchen.

- All outside rooms [annexes] searched nothing was seized.

- OBJECTS FOR EXAMINATION

1. One (01) pink cloth toy, with yellow paws and ears and blue label, make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

2. Clothes, shoes, bags [hand-bags; suitcases] and travel bags [knapsacks] that were packed as follows:

- Lounge, two boxes.
- Master bedroom, two boxes.
- Twins' bedroom, one suitcase.
- Visitors' bedroom, one suitcase.
3. Various papers.
- One bible, bedside table of the master bedroom.
- Two diaries and a notepad that was found in the cupboard of the master bedroom.
- On pair of latex gloves, that was found in a drawer of a bedside table of the visitors' bedroom.
- There being nothing more to record, the present activity was ended at 20h30.
- This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be duly signed.
(four signatures)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Over a period of time, the latex glove was embellished in the world of cybersleuths.  It has been suggested Gerry McCann was photographed wearing a latex glove, or something similar, during the trip they made to Huelva, Spain.  The matter is very much open to difference of opinion, personally I don't think it signifies.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Point 2:

As with most aspects of this case, conflicting reportage, commentary and opinion differs widely.  Over the years it's become commonplace for the spoken word to be isolated, thus misconstrued when taken out of context.

I'm not entirely sure whether your question can be answered through official documentation, that's to say the Portuguese investigation files.  Across the board many versions of the story of sedation have been raised, in particular Gerry and/or Kate McCann's reluctance to have the twins tested until too late, that would be the implication.  The issue is again obscured by the very many versions of the same story spewed forth.

Snr Amaral had this to say during an interview in May 2009, which covers both your points raised..

Gonçalo Amaral in Amsterdam, 05 May 2009

Q: Is it true, as was reported in De Telegraaf, that an injection needle was found in the apartment?

A: No, that is not true. In fact we have found no medication at all. None at all. Except for 'likdoornpleisters' = litt.: corn plasters (for your feet - sorry can't find a better translation).

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?

A: There is no doubt.

(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

I'll have a look around for anything in the documented files that might confirm the sedation test allegations, when I have more time.  Meanwhile I'm sure other members will have something to contribute.

thumbsup

This is very helpful, thank you.
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Post by DeanSwift 18.09.22 22:31

I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.
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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 22:35

DeanSwift wrote:I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.

How are we determining if Maddies name is being written on the 30th please? 

Just want to ensure I've got clarity on this.
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Post by sharonl 18.09.22 22:40

DeanSwift wrote:I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.
thinking Interesting.

Why would they have this folder in waiting if they weren't aware of Madeleines' disappearance?

Where have you got all this information from?  Surely only CEOP would know this?
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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 22:43

sharonl wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.
thinking Interesting.

Why would they have this folder in waiting if they weren't aware of Madeleines' disappearance?

Where have you got all this information from?  Surely only CEOP would know this?
You can right click and inspect source code to see what's happening behind the scenes of a page.
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Post by DeanSwift 18.09.22 23:45

joeyxoto wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.

How are we determining if Maddies name is being written on the 30th please? 

Just want to ensure I've got clarity on this.

I'm just assuming that CEOP didn't give the third-party designer Maddie's name before her disappearance as that would've given the game away. The page itself is clearly a generic page for any missing child without any specific details about Maddie (location, age, appearance etc).
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Post by DeanSwift 18.09.22 23:49

sharonl wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.
thinking Interesting.

Why would they have this folder in waiting if they weren't aware of Madeleines' disappearance?

Where have you got all this information from?  Surely only CEOP would know this?

All we know is that, for whatever reason, Jim Gamble wanted to be ready for a high-profile missing child case. It seems therefore that he wanted to change CEOP's direction. There's nothing wrong with that.


I have to keep on repeating that we don't yet know whether he knew Maddie's disappearance was imminent or whether he was just reacting prematurely to news of her death on April 29th. 
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Post by joeyxoto 18.09.22 23:55

DeanSwift wrote:
sharonl wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:I'm just saying that a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files was delivered to CEOP by a third-party designer on April 30th.

At the time of delivery, the folder did not contain any images of Madeleine or even any mention of her.

The HTML file just contained placeholders where CEOP was supposed to insert the name of the missing child. It also contained 2 references to images of the missing child that CEOP was supposed to provide and name. The references in the file were also supposed to be rewritten.

So, upon receipt of the folder of files on April 30th, someone in CEOP starts the process of inserting Madeleine's name and naming the images. To see what it looks like online, this person uploads the edited files and the image of Madeleine that CEOP has somehow already obtained (?). This may unfeasibly stupid, but I'm afraid  that this is what really happened.

The WBM found the McCann page on exactly the same day. (Not April 29th as you say)

So, all we can say is that the edited McCann page had definitely been uploaded by, and probably also on, April 30th. 

We still can't say for sure whether CEOP already knew that she had disappeared by April 30th or whether CEOP somehow knew that her disappearance was imminent.
thinking Interesting.

Why would they have this folder in waiting if they weren't aware of Madeleines' disappearance?

Where have you got all this information from?  Surely only CEOP would know this?

All we know is that, for whatever reason, Jim Gamble wanted to be ready for a high-profile missing child case. It seems therefore that he wanted to change CEOP's direction. There's nothing wrong with that.


I have to keep on repeating that we don't yet know whether he knew Maddie's disappearance was imminent or whether he was just reacting prematurely to news of her death on April 29th. 

Just filling some.gaos in my knowledge. Can you expand on Jim Gamble wanting to "be ready" for a high profile case? 

And at the very least, if he was acting prematurely to her death, that means he'd have prior knowledge?
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Post by DeanSwift 19.09.22 0:15

It depends on what you mean by prior knowledge.
Like Tony Bennett, I believe that she died on the evening of Sunday April 29th.
So, all I mean is that Gamble may have heard about this (IMO) accidental death at some stage on the Sunday or Monday.
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Post by Verdi 19.09.22 13:20

I located this from the wayback machine archives some long while ago.  Pay particular notice of dates..

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think

If not a technical glitch, it seems apparent that the CEOP's websters had a basic routine template to be completed and uploaded as and when necessary.  A bit like a standard word processor document, the basic information is there and ready to be 'personalized' according to the recipient detail.  If you get my drift!

Looking at it logically, why would the CEOP need to be involved in a missing persons case until such times as the official police investigations dictates. It was not their function.

As I said on a thread somewhere, it was Gonçalo Amaral who suggested the CEOP be called-in, this was after 3rd May 2007.


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Post by Verdi 19.09.22 13:43

Department of Criminal Investigation at PORTIMAO.

CONFIDENTIAL/URGENT.

To : Detective Chief Superintendent Robert Hall
Fax: 00441XXXXXXXXX
From: Goncalo Amaral - C.I.C. no D.I.C. de PortimAo
C/C : Fax:
Data: 07-05-2007 . No pages : 03
Ref : N / ref : Inq. 201107.0 GALGS
Subject : Request for Collaboration

In furtherance of your operation TASK and International Police Cooperation please see the following points:

2. In the spirit of Police to Police Cooperation we request the presence of a British Criminal Analyst who may be able to assist the enquiry.
Also the collaboration of the UK's "Child Exploitation Online Protection" may be useful if they wish to send one of their officers to provide assistance to the investigation,

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Post by DeanSwift 19.09.22 16:15

Verdi wrote:I located this from the wayback machine archives some long while ago.  Pay particular notice of dates..

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think

If not a technical glitch, it seems apparent that the CEOP's websters had a basic routine template to be completed and uploaded as and when necessary.  A bit like a standard word processor document, the basic information is there and ready to be 'personalized' according to the recipient detail.  If you get my drift!

Looking at it logically, why would the CEOP need to be involved in a missing persons case until such times as the official police investigations dictates.  It was not their function.

As I said on a thread somewhere, it was Gonçalo Amaral who suggested the CEOP be called-in, this was after 3rd May 2007.


That's a good example of a genuine glitch caused by the use of dynamic content (the news content), an issue that has been recognized by the IA. But the McCann page is a very basic static HTML page, so it's "glitch" cannot be explained by the use of dynamic content.

Your reference to templates is also apt. That's exactly what Gamble ordered. We know that it wasn't produced in-house because of the presence of the CEOP-April-30-2007_files folder. The shambolic nature of the CEOP testing of the page also suggests that they really didn't have much in-house expertise.

Your questioning of the need for CEOP to be involved is also spot on. My understanding is that Gamble basically wanted to hijack or exploit a high-profile missing child case so that he could increase his own profile and dominance in that field. You only need to look at the poster available or download from the McCann page to realize that CEOP is mentioned more often than poor Madeleine McCann!

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Even though he later resigned from CEOP, Gamble has more or less achieved his aim and is now the media go-to expert commmentator for missing children. He was particularly prominent in the Nora Quoirin and Cleo Smith cases.

Whether this was just a matter of personal ambition or some deeper agenda is open to discussion. It's certainly well known that many child protection charities are widely suspected to be run by paedophile networks as it allows them to control the public narrative as well as provided easy access to vulnerable children. You only need look at the speed with which the parents forgot about Maddie and tried to position themselves in a broader perspective in the child protection industry. There are many excerpts in Kate's book that illustrate this.

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I often think that is the Wider Agenda that Gerry was referring to.

Of course, many other agencies benefited from Maddie's disappearance, noticeably Missed Children (relaunched at a particularly "ironic" time) and the IFLG.

I believe that Tony has also highlighted the connections and similarities between the NCMEC and CEOP. Just remember that it was John Walsh, co-founder of the NCMEC, who took Gamble to the child brothel in Cambodia for his TV program, America's Most Wanted. He is also being sued by his daughter Meghan for abducting her son and his grandson.

Anyway, enough of that diversion. The last thing I want to look at is Gamble's self-insertion into the case. You very correctly mention Amaral's faxed request for help from CEOP that's in the PJ files. However, as well as having nothing to do with missing children, CEOP was also an incredibly small and obscure agency at the time, so I find it very difficult to believe that Amaral would've been aware of them. In fact, I believe that he must have been prompted. I will continue in a reply to your next post as I'm not allowed to upload any more images.
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Post by Verdi 19.09.22 16:23

DeanSwift wrote:However, as well as having nothing to do with missing children, CEOP was also an incredibly small and obscure agency at the time, so I find it very difficult to believe that Amaral would've been aware of them. In fact, I believe that he must have been prompted.

Undoubtedly Snr Amaral was prompted - no doubt the interfering Leiscestershire Constabulary who so swiftly found their way to Luz amid a media storm.

However, I don't think that good reason to suspect Gamble or the CEOP of prior knowledge.

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Post by Verdi 19.09.22 16:35

joeyxoto wrote:
Verdi wrote:Firstly if I may say, no one is expected nor obliged to agree with every detail documented by CMOMM/MMRG research.  With little confirmed fact and evidence to work on, much is conjecture deduced by logical thinking and informed opinion - it's wise to be cautious.

Point 1:

No, there was never a syringe found in the holiday apartment/s occupied by the McCanns anytime during their Portuguese sojourn, I can't begin to imagine where such nonsense emanates but I'm guessing mischief was a forethought.

For accuracy of reportage, look no further than the Portugal Resident, usually presented by journalist Natasha Donn - always finger on the pulse.

Claims that medication found in McCanns apartment

By shareit - 30th August 2007

REPORTS IN Portuguese national newspaper Correio da Manhã claim that Judicial Police officers found a syringe with tranquilizer medication on a bedside table in the McCanns apartment, where Madeleine went missing.

However, there is no indication when this is alleged to have been found. The Resident spoke to Olegário Sousa, spokesperson for the investigation, who said that he could not confirm nor comment on press reports.

It has been widely reported that Gerry McCann stormed off a television set during an interview with Spanish television, after the host asked him about the blood that was allegedly found in the apartment. He left Kate on the stage on her own but returned later to complete the interview in a calmer state.

Sousa said that they were “are all waiting for news” on the test results of the DNA evidence that was taken to Birmingham, England, adding that patience was important at this stage.

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The latex gloves continue to this day to be an enigma, personally I think it yet another creation of an over imaginative mind.

The pair of latex gloves was photographed by the forensic team inspecting the villa occupied by the McCanns..

Official document of search and seizure.

Inspector: Joao Carlos
Date: 02 August 2007
Place: Rua das Flores, 27

Officers: Tavares de Almeida, Vitor Matos, Joao Carlos, Carlos Dordonnat, Carla Brito (Interpreter)

Consent given by: Gerry McCann

Legal formalities having been observed a search was undertaken.

The following describes in detail the number and quality of papers or detected objects, and the exact place of the same with the seizure declaration and indication of how they were packed up:

- The present search was started at 18h00.

- The residence comprised: entrance hall; a WC (01) on the left; twins' bedroom; visitors' bedroom with WC en suite; master bedroom [bedroom of the couple]; lounge; dining area; WC and kitchen.

- All outside rooms [annexes] searched nothing was seized.

- OBJECTS FOR EXAMINATION

1. One (01) pink cloth toy, with yellow paws and ears and blue label, make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

2. Clothes, shoes, bags [hand-bags; suitcases] and travel bags [knapsacks] that were packed as follows:

- Lounge, two boxes.
- Master bedroom, two boxes.
- Twins' bedroom, one suitcase.
- Visitors' bedroom, one suitcase.
3. Various papers.
- One bible, bedside table of the master bedroom.
- Two diaries and a notepad that was found in the cupboard of the master bedroom.
- On pair of latex gloves, that was found in a drawer of a bedside table of the visitors' bedroom.
- There being nothing more to record, the present activity was ended at 20h30.
- This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be duly signed.
(four signatures)

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Over a period of time, the latex glove was embellished in the world of cybersleuths.  It has been suggested Gerry McCann was photographed wearing a latex glove, or something similar, during the trip they made to Huelva, Spain.  The matter is very much open to difference of opinion, personally I don't think it signifies.

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Point 2:

As with most aspects of this case, conflicting reportage, commentary and opinion differs widely.  Over the years it's become commonplace for the spoken word to be isolated, thus misconstrued when taken out of context.

I'm not entirely sure whether your question can be answered through official documentation, that's to say the Portuguese investigation files.  Across the board many versions of the story of sedation have been raised, in particular Gerry and/or Kate McCann's reluctance to have the twins tested until too late, that would be the implication.  The issue is again obscured by the very many versions of the same story spewed forth.

Snr Amaral had this to say during an interview in May 2009, which covers both your points raised..

Gonçalo Amaral in Amsterdam, 05 May 2009

Q: Is it true, as was reported in De Telegraaf, that an injection needle was found in the apartment?

A: No, that is not true. In fact we have found no medication at all. None at all. Except for 'likdoornpleisters' = litt.: corn plasters (for your feet - sorry can't find a better translation).

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?

A: There is no doubt.

(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

I'll have a look around for anything in the documented files that might confirm the sedation test allegations, when I have more time.  Meanwhile I'm sure other members will have something to contribute.

thumbsup

This is very helpful, thank you.

The subject of sedation is mentioned here, in case you missed it..

The Media enhancement given to the case and their search for information has contributed to an evolution on Madeleine's parents declarations.

All the information that was made public, contributed for the remixing of the story, adapting it to eventual police questions, and to attempts to justify the indicia and consequent proof that was being collected.

Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.

Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.

Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.

She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.

And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.

The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams.

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I know I'm skirting around a bit - it's the way I work roll .

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Post by DeanSwift 19.09.22 20:28

Verdi wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:However, as well as having nothing to do with missing children, CEOP was also an incredibly small and obscure agency at the time, so I find it very difficult to believe that Amaral would've been aware of them. In fact, I believe that he must have been prompted.

Undoubtedly Snr Amaral was prompted - no doubt the interfering Leiscestershire Constabulary who so swiftly found their way to Luz amid a media storm.

However, I don't think that good reason to suspect Gamble or the CEOP of prior knowledge.


I’m not saying that Gamble’s self-insertion in the case shows prior knowledge. I’m not even saying that the McCann page definitively proves prior knowledge. 

I’ve clearly stated 3 or 4 times now that we just don’t know why he uploaded that page on April 30th or why he already had access to that photo of a younger Maddie.
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Post by Verdi 20.09.22 0:59

DeanSwift wrote:
Verdi wrote:
DeanSwift wrote:However, as well as having nothing to do with missing children, CEOP was also an incredibly small and obscure agency at the time, so I find it very difficult to believe that Amaral would've been aware of them. In fact, I believe that he must have been prompted.

Undoubtedly Snr Amaral was prompted - no doubt the interfering Leiscestershire Constabulary who so swiftly found their way to Luz amid a media storm.

However, I don't think that good reason to suspect Gamble or the CEOP of prior knowledge.


I’m not saying that Gamble’s self-insertion in the case shows prior knowledge. I’m not even saying that the McCann page definitively proves prior knowledge. 

I’ve clearly stated 3 or 4 times now that we just don’t know why he uploaded that page on April 30th or why he already had access to that photo of a younger Maddie.

Yes I know, I read and absorb everything you present to the forum.

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Post by Verdi 20.09.22 17:03

Kate & Gerry McCann's answer regarding sedatives


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