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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Mm11

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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Mm11

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Verdi 06.04.21 13:38

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Those are the photos taken by the PJ technician Joao Barreiras in the early hours of 4 May. There is a Statement referencing the activity and, from memory, he was/they were active between 01:00 and 03:30/04:00 taking pictures and doing the first fingerprint checks

Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Scre1427

PJfiles

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14479p50-key-witness-statements-for-information-only#434447

OBSERVATIONS AND ANALYSES PERFORMED
On 4 May 2007, at 15:30, a Crime Scene team from the Police Science Laboratory, comprising the undersigned, went, at the request of DIC PJ Portimao, to a dwelling situated at Apartment 5A, of Block A of the tourist accommodation building, "Ocean Club" - Praia da Luz, Lagos, in order to perform a specialist examination of the location.

Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Scre1428

PJfiles

Between the two crime scene inspections some hours apart, you will notice a number of differences - what appears to be a bag of some description in the wardrobe is just one example of now you see it now you don't, I doubt we will ever know why.

The two books that appear on the sofa in the second inspection photographic reports could be anything, there is nothing but a vivid imagination to support the theory.   Even if it is was the Jed Rubenfeld novel - so what?  I read stuff like that - does that make me a potential murderer - murder is a very ugly word when brandished without evidence!  Or are you perhaps suggesting Gerry McCann, his wife or one other of the group sneaked back to apartment 5a and deliberately planted a book or two to draw attention to a possible homicide scenario?

The first alert as regards Gerry McCann's choice of reading matter was raised by the investigation, Dr Amaral in particular, following the specialist dogs inspection early August 2007.  The Rubenfeld novel was photographed at the McCanns bedside at the villa they rented, along with other more intriguing reading matter.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/p1031400-a-book-at-bedtime

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Silentscope 06.04.21 14:17

Whatever happened to Madeleine, and when, defined the course of thinking and events thereafter.

If they had more time to think, they would have come up with an even better solution, possibly one that would not have raised as much suspicion when first investigated. 

For example:

Swapping out the Sofa with one from another Apartment.
Swapping out the Curtains as well.
Cleaning the windows and Shutters.
Taking up and replacing the tiling on the floor. 
Changing the Bedsheets/linen from an unused Bed in another Apartment.

But these things did not happen. Because either they did not think quickly enough or because they had no time?

Make up your own minds...
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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Tony Bennett 06.04.21 15:23

@Silentscope wrote:Whatever happened to Madeleine, and when, defined the course of thinking and events thereafter.

If they had more time to think, they would have come up with an even better solution, possibly one that would not have raised as much suspicion when first investigated. 
The evidence clearly shows that 'they' had four days in which to think - and plan. What they achieved was a very credible account of an abduction, supported by lots of 'evidence'. Put it this way, what they came up with was enough to convince the mainstream media, who 'floated' their initial story so successfully that from then on, it was nigh on impossible to seriously question their account of events. In marketing and media terms, their strategy was brilliant - even if it was a tissue of lies.     

There are many 'tell-tale' signs of advance planning, @Silentscope, and you having been here quite a while now, I am very surprised you can't see them. Let's just review a few:

* Robert Murat summoned to Praia da Luz, arriving early on Tuesday 
* Robert Murat in the right place at the right time to skew some of the interviews he interpreted and to attempt to influence the PJ investigation
* CEOP open up a 'dummy' Madeleine page on their website, Monday 30 April 
* Apartment forensically cleaned - no trace of Madeleine's DNA
* Invention of Thursday 'high tea'
* Invention of David Payne - Kate McCann meeting 6.30pm Thursday
* Change of routine Monday onwards, avoiding the Millennium
* Emergency booking the Tapas restaurant Sunday night
* Priming Jane Tanner to identify a stranger carrying a bundle
* Priming Nuno Lourenco to identify Wojcek Krokowski, using the same description as Jane Tanner's stranger, and getting him to 'phone the PJ nearly Saturday morning - a master stroke by the planners, disrupting the PJ investigation on Day Two
* Cat Baker claiming Maddie was in the creche all week, and sailing on Thursday
* Pretending that the Last Photo was taken Thursday instead of Sunday
* Gerry pretending he bought his sunglasses on Tuesday
* Arranging for First Magazine to publish a fake story by the Boyds, claiming their son had been playing football for an hour with Maddie on the Thursday.

I'm really surprised you overlook all this - and more

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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Verdi 06.04.21 15:44

@PeterMac wrote:
@Verdi wrote:So back to Madeleine McCann disappearing on the night of 3rd May 2007 !?!
***
Why does Gerry McCann need an alibi to cover his movements on the evening of 3rd May 2007?  By all intents and purposes, the dirty work had been done and dusted (literally?) days beforehand, the only remaining work in hand was to give the phantom abductor the opportunity to abduct - the evening/night of 3rd May 2007.

I think because they had decided that the staged abduction would take place at that time on that date, and that GM would be the last person to see her alive
and that therefore he had to have an alibi to take any possible attention away from him and from KM

I don''t see that at all.

Yes, the day and time of the fake abduction was pre-planned and possibly Gerry McCann was thought to be the right person to last see his daughter - although I can't see the reason why.

Whatever, Gerry McCann put himself in the position of being the last to visit apartment 5a before Kate McCann's visit and screams of 'abduction'. Why put yourself in a position that would require an alibi?

Martin Smith, nor any of his relatives can be considered alibis. They just allegedly passed a man in the street carrying a child - kind of putting McCann in the frame so to speak.

Gerry McCann hasn't got an alibi for the night of 3rd May 2007, apart from perhaps sitting at the Tapas restauant table, even that's tenuous. Jez Wilkins can't be considered an alibi, if the story is to be believed, he only met McCann in the street, that only puts the two of them together for a few minutes.

If you're going to pre-plan an event, you wouldn't put yourself in a situation that required an alibi - surely?

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by crusader 06.04.21 16:06

@Tony Bennett..
Thank you for the above list of tell tale signs of advanced planning.
I haven't seen where Robert Murat skewed some of the interviews, interesting.
Please can you point me to which interviews they were?
Who was it that primed Nuno Laurenco to identify Wojcek krocowski and get him to phone the PJ.
The high tea on Thursday bothers me because there were only 3 children from Cat Bakers group There, Madeleine and 2 boy's.
For Cat Baker to be implicated in the deceit, she would have had to get other nannies involved.
Thank you.
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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Silentscope 06.04.21 16:44

It depends Tony on your point of view.

All of your above points are perfectly reasonable if you believe Madeleine died between Sunday and Wednesday. This is still entirely possible and plausible. 

I still wonder if she was just so unwell from an accidental cumulative overdose, that she was unable to attend these events? At which point in time she actually expired has never been determined. Her body cannot tell us as it has not been found. No one wants to tell us when her body was discovered behind the Sofa, and who removed it.

That a certain amount of ‘back filling’ has happened to give the impression she was fit and well earlier in the week is not disputed.

I would expect a Doctor to be able recognise the Symptoms of Paracetamol poisoning, which can occur within 1-3 days. 

Thursday night two Children were being sick, if they were both being given the same ‘treatment’ it would result in professional problems for all those Parents. 

One Child apparently did not make it.

Resulting in the ensuing coverup?
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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Tony Bennett 06.04.21 22:39

Verdi wrote:


Whatever, Gerry McCann put himself in the position of being the last to visit apartment 5a before Kate McCann's visit and screams of 'abduction'. Why put yourself in a position that would require an alibi?


REPLY: It seems that the play being acted out on Thursday night involved Matt Oldfield doing a check at around 9.30pm.to 9.35pm. His version of events is that he opened the door to the children’s bedroom but can’t be sure he saw Madeleine. To add a bit of colour to the whole tale and suggest that the abductor might have stolen Madeleine between 9.10pm and 9.30mpm he added the detail that the room ‘seemed lighter’ than before. The pliant media hyped up this point.


Crusader wrote:


I haven't seen where Robert Murat skewed some of the interviews, interesting. Please can you point me to which interviews they were?


REPLY: IIRC Robert Murat’s main task was to interview the creche workers, about seven or eight I think. The suggestion has been made that, on the assumption that he was part of the cover-up, he was able to influence and manipulate what they said in their statements, hence the suggestion that he skewed their evidence. Further evidence of his corrupt actions as an interpreter was provided by Inspector Varanda’s detailed statement, as a result of which Murat was removed from being an interpreter.


Who was it that primed Nuno Lourenco to identify Wojcek Krokowski and get him to phone the PJ?


REPLY: I don’t know. But my suggestion is that there must have been at least one, or two or three, planning meetings that week to sketch out the outline of the hoax and assign particular individuals to their respective roles and supply each with a script. Clearly in my view Wojcek Krokowski was the fall guy in this situation, or more accurately, a ‘pretend’ fall guy.


He wore rather odd, old-fashioned clothes. He had a penchant for taking pictures of children, as he formally admitted to a Sunday People journalist, I think in the 2014 article about him. Thus Jane Tanner was given a description that matched Krokowski. Lourenco’s task was to double-frame Krokowski by inventing the story that Krokowski had nearly kidnapped his daughter at Sagres beach on Sunday 29 April. To make sure the PJ could identify Krokowski, he took a photo of Krokowski’s hired car, making sure that the police knew this had taken place on Sunday. He told the PJ: “Look at the date and time stamp, that proves it!” It’s all in his statement. He wasn’t the only one that week to claim that ‘the date and time stamp’ proved when a certain photo was taken. There was another element to this ingenious sub-plot, namely Krokowski being photographed, with his wife/lover, emerging from a Lisbon shop having just bought a CD of Brazilian jazz music. This story was supplied to the police and media by the manager of the Burgau beach bar, whom I suggest was either Ralph Eveleigh or his manager. I think it is possible that a planning meeting that week was actually held in Krokowski’s rented apartment, because hairs of the same haplotype as both Robert Murat and Jane Tanner were later found there by the PJ. Here then is a likely scenario. A planning group gathers in Krokowski’s apartment, with Jane Tanner and Robert Murat present, together with others, quite possibly Nuno Lourneco as well. At this meeting, Jane Tanner and Nuno Lourenco were given their scripts. It is equally posisble that Tanner and Lourenco were given ther marching orders in a different location. To fully understand Nuno Lourenco’s evidence, which was a pack of lies from start to finish, take a look at my two articles about Lourenco/Krokowski which are on the forum somewhere.



The high tea on Thursday bothers me because there were only 3 children from Cat Baker’s group there, Madeleine and 2 boys.


REPLY: There are far too many contradictions about this alleged high tea to believe it actually happened. This is where Goncalo Amaral and his team were badly deceived. It shows the cunning and briliance of the cover-up.


For Cat Baker to be implicated in the deceit, she would have had to get other nannies involved.


REPLY: No. She alone was the creche nanny for the Lobsters group. But other nannies may well be involved. The evidence of Amy Tierney for example was all over the place.


Silentscope wrote:


I still wonder if she was just so unwell from an accidental cumulative overdose, that she was unable to attend these events? At which point in time she actually expired has never been determined. Her body cannot tell us as it has not been found. No one wants to tell us when her body was discovered behind the sofa, and who removed it.


REPLY: Certainly some of us speculated many years ago on something like this having happened. Of course, if you’re right, Cat Baker lied about her being in the creche all week. But who really saw Madeleine that week? Only those close to the McCanns. Other claims of ‘sightings’ of Maddie that week were either proved false or too vague to be of any evidential value.


Thursday night two children were being sick, if they were both being given the same ‘treatment’ it would result in professional problems for all those parents. One child apparently did not make it.


REPLY: The claim that the O’Briens’ daughter was sick depends on whether you believe Russell O’Brien’s evidence is true.

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Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by crusader 06.04.21 22:46

@ Tony Bennett, Thank you for taking the time to reply to my queries.
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Post by Verdi 07.04.21 0:55

@Silentscope wrote:It depends Tony on your point of view.

No, I think it depends more Silentscope on your mentor's understanding of the case.

Enough of this worthless forum distraction, you've had your fun. There are more important things at stake than idle mischief.

Follow the evidence ....




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Post by Silentscope 07.04.21 9:41

Everyone has a different point of view on this case Verdi.

Even Pat Brown or Christian Brückner.

There are more important things at stake to be sure.

I am working on the principle that other people, no matter how useless they are - should not be used to cover up other people’s parenting mistakes. Before he becomes the ‘most perfect Suspect’ or DEAD.
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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Paulo Alexandre 07.04.21 10:08

@Silentscope wrote:Everyone has a different point of view on this case Verdi.
And therein lies the problem.

There are too many opinions.

If people could just focus on looking at what the available evidence is and stop speculating or theorizing, everyone would come to the same conclusion, because evidence is truth. You can't have different "points of view" if you're all just looking at the evidence.

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Post by Silentscope 07.04.21 10:41

I can quite believe the evidence that points to Madeleine being deceased before the reported ‘Abduction’ Paulo, it seems strange to me that Pat Brown seems stuck on the Thursday night scenario. 

How much time it took to discover the body, remove it, clean up and concoct the ‘plan’ is still sliding from Sunday to Thursday depending on what people decide to accept as being true or not.

The ‘evidence’ supplied by the Tapas group and their supporters and sources cannot be trusted.

It is therefore no wonder to me that opinions vary based on what people choose to believe or not. 

I see the real problem as being that no-one will be safe if the Powers that be decide that we must all follow only the evidence that they provide, and will be led to the conclusion that they want.

Hence Herr Wolters ‘if only you knew’ the evidence statement.
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Post by crusader 07.04.21 10:51

Evidence can also be interpreted in many way's, by theorizing and looking at the evidence, the researchers on this forum have come up with what they, and indeed many people believe is probably what happened.
Nobody, including experts in body language  profilers and the police know for sure what happened, it's all informed guess work.
That said, this forum is in my opinion, the way forward, because we are all in the same mind, wanting to find out what happened to Madeleine.
I quite agree that outlandish speculation and theorizing is not helpful, but coming up with theories based on the evidence does no harm, isn't that what the experts are doing? 
At the moment, there is no concrete proof of what happened to Madeleine.
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Post by Paulo Alexandre 07.04.21 11:13

@crusader wrote:Evidence can also be interpreted in many way's, by theorizing and looking at the evidence, the researchers on this forum have come up with what they, and indeed many people believe is probably what happened.
Nobody, including experts in body language  profilers and the police know for sure what happened, it's all informed guess work.
That said, this forum is in my opinion, the way forward, because we are all in the same mind, wanting to find out what happened to Madeleine.
I quite agree that outlandish speculation and theorizing is not helpful, but coming up with theories based on the evidence does no harm, isn't that what the experts are doing? 
At the moment, there is no concrete proof of what happened to Madeleine.
Theories are not going to solve the case.

Sticking to the facts is the way to go...

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Post by crusader 07.04.21 11:21

@Paulo Alexandre wrote...

Theories are not going to solve the case.

Sticking to the facts is the way to go...



I have a theory but I'm keeping it to myself.
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Post by Jill Havern 07.04.21 11:34

That's ^^^ a shame then, because you might have hit on something that we haven't.

A bit like the long-sleeved pyjama top in Aoife's statement, which throws doubt on Smithman carrying Madeleine.  Maybe he was just another crecheman.

We do have a Debate Section for purporting theories....purport away!

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Post by sequested 07.04.21 11:37

The fact is : Madeline Beth McCann disappeared on, or before, Thursday 3 May 2007 
The evidence is : ....................................................

Cue theorizing around a multitude of statements.
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Post by Silentscope 07.04.21 11:57

For the record, here are my 5 main points on this case.

1. There can ONLY BE a ‘Abduction’.
2. All ‘Sightings’ assist the Illusion that she is still alive.
3. The Dogs and Forensics will always be ‘inconclusive’.
4. All Statements given are to be believed without question.
5. Any disbelief will result in threats and consequences.

All the actions of an innocent party?
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Post by Verdi 07.04.21 12:58

@crusader wrote:I quite agree that outlandish speculation and theorizing is not helpful, but coming up with theories based on the evidence does no harm, isn't that what the experts are doing?

And there lies the key - 'based on evidence'!

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Post by Verdi 07.04.21 13:09

@Silentscope wrote:.... it seems strange to me that Pat Brown seems stuck on the Thursday night scenario.

I can't see why it's strange to you, you yourself were stuck on the Thursday night scenario only a few hours ago.

Sorry to say, your posting history is all over the shot, just random rambling that makes no sense whatsover.

It's the inconsistency I find intolerable, the result of posting on someone else's behalf. In short, I don't think you know/understand what you're talking about but please carry-on regardless.

Constructive criticism of course!

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Post by Silentscope 07.04.21 14:05

I thought we were discussing why Pat Brown’s theory could be accurate or not? It could be, but I do not know for sure.

Most theories I have read on this Forum, and elsewhere make perfect sense, and most follow the same patterns.

Which pieces of ‘evidence’ are accepted or rejected by their Authors make up the variety in them, but I find all to be on the same track.

Just a track Operation Grange never was allowed to follow up.
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Post by Tony Bennett 07.04.21 16:07

@Paulo Alexandre wrote:
@Silentscope wrote:Everyone has a different point of view on this case Verdi.
And therein lies the problem.

There are too many opinions.

If people could just focus on looking at what the available evidence is and stop speculating or theorizing, everyone would come to the same conclusion, because evidence is truth. You can't have different "points of view" if you're all just looking at the evidence.

But the evidence must be properly evaluated. Take the Smith sighting as an obvious example. Martin Smith and some of his family insist they saw a man carrying a blond girl at 10pm on Thursday 10pm. Some say: "This was Gerry McCann". I said back in October 2013 that the Smiths' account was fabricated, because of (a) severe intrinsic problems with their statement and (b) because it conflicted with other evidence about Madeleine possibly having died earlier in the week. Very few people agreed with me in 2013, many more do so in 2021.

Pamela Fenn on 20 August 2007 made a statement that she heard a child crying 'Daddy, Daddy', ever louder and louder, for 75 minutes. Most Maddie McCann researchers say this 'proves' that Madeleine was alive on the Tuesday evening. I personally believed that to be true for many years. But then I spent a very long time analysing everything I could find about that alleged incident, including the evidence of Carol Tramner (which conflicted with that of her aunt Pamela Fenn). I have made several posts about my evidence on this forum. I concluded that this was made up, under pressure from others. I backed that up by showing newspaper reports from 17, 18 & 19 August 2007 in the British media announcing what she was going to tell the PJ. She herself declared her statement was 'all nonsense'. 

IMO anyone who insists that the Smith and Fenn statements are true, wilfully blinds themselves to critically evaluating the weight of other evidence that points to a serious event befalling Maddie on the Sunday.

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Silentscope 07.04.21 20:53

I did take your recap on board Tony, about 2015 you guys did do a thread on the ‘way back machine’ and the likelihood of CEOP and Jim Gamble having something to do with the ‘dummy Madeleine site’ - apparently set up in advance of her disappearance.

But it appears there were several possibilities as to how and why it happened.

All arguments and opinions aside, most of the ‘evidence’ appears so divisive in itself, no-one unless they are a Forensic computer specialist could figure out what happened...

Then present it successfully in Court so a Jury could understand it all.

That is why the ‘Ermittlungsverfahren’ the Investigation stage against Christian B will take forever, because there is no time limit set on this phase.

If it ever got to the ‘Swischenverfahren’ the pre-trial evaluation stage, 
I wonder if the Judges would even consider taking it on to the ‘Hauptverfahren’ or main Trial stage?

I think PeterMac summed it up best ‘it’s all gone quiet over there’ 

The Penny dropped a long time ago...
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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Tony Bennett 07.04.21 21:03

@Silentscope wrote:I did take your recap on board Tony, about 2015 you guys did do a thread on the ‘way back machine’ and the likelihood of CEOP and Jim Gamble having something to do with the ‘dummy Madeleine site’ - apparently set up in advance of her disappearance.

But it appears there were several possibilities as to how and why it happened.

We had an email after one of Richard Hall's videos from someone who worked for CEOP on a self-employed basis. He said that some weeks BEFORE Madeleine was reported missing, Jim Gamble approached him personally, and not through the usual channels, to help him set up some special pages for the CEOP website. His information seemed credible and he gave names of some CEOP staff. We were not quite sure what to make of it

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case - Page 2 Empty Re: Pat Brown: The 5 Main Clues in the Madeleine McCann Case

Post by Verdi 08.04.21 1:47

@Silentscope wrote:#46 I thought we were discussing why Pat Brown’s theory could be accurate or not? It could be, but I do not know for sure.
@Silentscope wrote:#48 I did take your recap on board Tony, about 2015 you guys did do a thread on the ‘way back machine’ and the likelihood of CEOP and Jim Gamble having something to do with the ‘dummy Madeleine site’ - apparently set up in advance of her disappearance

Why do you raise the subject of Jim Gamble, the CEOP and the wayback machine debacle on this thread?  A thrashed out debunked subject of yesteryear?

Do tell ....

No conferring.

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