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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 17 Mm11

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The Coronavirus Debate

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Post by BlueBag on 29.11.20 7:35

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Or... are people dying because of other complications triggered by underlying health conditions, and their deaths are being attributed to COVID-19 simply because they found traces of the virus in their system?

Precisely - but perhaps not the virus, more a virus!
A very close elderly (91) relative of mine died on Friday.

She tested positive for COVID over three weeks ago... displayed ZERO symptoms since... she died for other reasons.

She has been classed as a COVID death.

This is a scandal and I suspect not unusual.

The funeral director said we could have a word with the Registrar and request it not be on the death certificate.
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Post by BlueBag on 29.11.20 7:39

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Surgical masks are used regularly by healthcare workers to protect themselves from bacteria, viruses or body fluids, which is why we see them being used in surgeries, for example. They do not cause viruses to be "reactivated".
Sorry... do you have evidence that this makes any difference?

There is plenty of research that says they don't... including the recent media censored one in Denmark.
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Post by PeterMac on 29.11.20 8:50

Natasha on form, as always.
Now politicians are interfering with the Judiciary, even in Portugal
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Portuguese judges who queried reliability of Covid tests at risk of being disciplined

By Natasha Donn


Two appeal court judges in Lisbon are at risk of being ‘disciplined’ for a 34-page ruling in which they justified their reasons for releasing four German tourists from confinement in the Azores (click here).
The Superior Council of Magistrature (SCM) will be ‘appreciating’ this matter (in other words, deciding whether the two judges should be ‘disciplined’) on December 2 (Wednesday).
The social media movement Juristas Pela Verdade has organised a protest outside the SCM building in Lisbon from 9am on that day, describing the situation as “an attempt to destroy the rule of law in Portugal”.
This may sound like an ‘academic issue’ but it goes to the very heart of the current crisis: the fact that an official narrative appears to be the only one ‘allowed’, even for members of the judiciary who have studied scientific opinions in order to rule on appeals.
In this case, the appeal was lodged by ARS dos Açores – the regional health authority which disagreed with a lower court having granted a writ of Habeas corpus lodged by four German tourists held in a hotel because one of them had registered positive following a routine PCR test. None of the tourists showed any symptoms of Covid-19, but were held in isolation in their hotel for more than 10 days.
The judges – Margarida Ramos de Almeida and Ana Paramés – went to great pains to assess whether or not there were indeed legal grounds for the tourists’ enforced confinement. They decided there were not.
It was illegal for ARS dos Açores to hold the Germans outside the context of a State of Emergency – which wasn’t in force at the time (August) – and the judges’ deliberations over numerous pages minutely explained the form in which they had reached their conclusions.
In this context, the judges stated that the PCR test could not be relied upon to give an accurate reading.
Their reasoning stemmed from the fact that reliability depends always on the number of cycles (amplifications) involved in the test – which no one appeared to be certain of.
Citing research published in the Oxford Academic, the judges explained that the number of amplifications used in many European labs meant that a positive PCR test could, in theory, have a 97% rate of fallibility.
This wasn’t something the judges ‘made up’: they were quoting from published research. They actually quoted two sources suggesting the ‘gold standard PCR testing method’ was open to recording false positives.
Jornal de Notícias followed up on the decision suggesting the CSM ‘understands’ that the judges should not have come to the decision they reached.
‘Specialists’ accused the legislators of being wrong, and irresponsible – and now we are at the point where the various specialist opinions are to be weighed by the CSM against those proffered by two appeal court judges.
Says Juristas pela Verdade in a post outlining Wednesday’s protest, the judges’ decision “fell like a bomb on the official narrative, on the basis of which thousands of Portuguese have been ordered into house arrest”.
And it sees the CSM intervention as “unacceptable interference by an administrative branch in a sovereign body of judicial power, aiming at control of the latter in what can only be characterised as a violent blow to the rule of law”.
Says the movement, the message to other courts is loud and clear “consequences may arise if they decide in the opposite direction to the official narrative”.
For citizens, “it means they cannot count on the independence of the courts or judges”.
In Juristas pela Verdade’s opinion the judges’ assessment of this situation was not ‘wrong’ nor ‘irresponsible’, it was “brilliant and courageous”. And for that reason the movement is asking as many people as possible to demonstrate outside the CSM building next Wednesday.
“Courts are the last stronghold for defending our rights before disruption”, says the post that has been shared hundreds of times, and received numerous positive comments.
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Post by pauloalexandre on 29.11.20 10:43

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Surgical masks are used regularly by healthcare workers to protect themselves from bacteria, viruses or body fluids, which is why we see them being used in surgeries, for example. They do not cause viruses to be "reactivated".
Sorry... do you have evidence that this makes any difference?

There is plenty of research that says they don't... including the recent media censored one in Denmark.
I don't know, I'm just reporting on what their intended function is.

I regard the use of masks by the general public as a good way to keep them thinking there's a deadly disease spreading in the community. Of course, there is no evidence whatsoever that that is the case, but that doesn't matter to the uninformed public, as they see those graphics of daily "cases" on TV, and they assume it's something to worry about.

Why? Because it's on the news, so therefore, it must be real...

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Post by Jill Havern on 29.11.20 12:02


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Post by Verdi on 29.11.20 12:33

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Or... are people dying because of other complications triggered by underlying health conditions, and their deaths are being attributed to COVID-19 simply because they found traces of the virus in their system?

Precisely - but perhaps not the virus, more a virus!
A very close elderly (91) relative of mine died on Friday.

She tested positive for COVID over three weeks ago... displayed ZERO symptoms since... she died for other reasons.

She has been classed as a COVID death.

This is a scandal and I suspect not unusual.

The funeral director said we could have a word with the Registrar and request it not be on the death certificate.

It's an utter disgrace!

You shouldn't need to be 'having a word' with anyone - the death (my condolences) should not have been recorded as COVID related, in any way shape or form.

Do the authorities even care how much additional stress they place on the bereaved with all this unnecessary bureaucracy. Your relative by example, is now stripped of 91 years of identity and turned into a statistic overnight.

In days of old, most likely today in tribal communities, someone died and the family/community dealt with it themselves. Now you have to pay vast amounts of money for a burial or cremation and spend weeks on end splashing the cash, filing forms and signing everything thrown at you.

So what is the real need for entering the cause of death on the death certificate - a document designed to deal with the departed's financial affairs? In legal terms maybe to rule out foul play or negligence or suicide but isn't that precisely what is happening now, before our very eyes?

In my view what's going on now is foul play of the highest order - definitely fraudulent and definitely illegal! This must be the biggest scandal ever to hit planet earth.

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Post by Verdi on 29.11.20 12:37

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Classic surgical mask love it high5 !

And don't we look Pritti smilie .

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Post by Verdi on 29.11.20 12:55

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Post by Verdi on 29.11.20 13:12

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Post by Verdi on 29.11.20 13:18

Covid vaccine: do we really have lift‑off?

Britain is getting ready to give jabs to millions. Will the cheaper Oxford formula provide effective protection? Or will it be down to foreign imports at nearly four times the price?

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surgical mask

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Post by Jill Havern on 29.11.20 13:23

An outbreak of bird flu in Yorkshire means thousands of turkeys will be culled
Avian influenza of the H5N8 strain was confirmed at a turkey fattening farm near Northallerton in North Yorkshire. More than 10,000 birds at the farm will be culled and an exclusion zone set up. The H5N8 strain of Avian Flu presents a very low risk to humans according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC).

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Post by Jill Havern on 29.11.20 13:25

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Classic surgical mask  love it high5 !

And don't we look Pritti smilie .
big grin  The devil made me do that too.

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Post by Verdi on 29.11.20 13:32

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Post by AnneBarnard on 29.11.20 13:50

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Dear Greta, does the "don't buy stuff you don't need" apply to your book?  You know the one.

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Post by Doug D on 29.11.20 17:07

No idea as to the accuracy, but this popped up in my FB feed:

Should have seen Leicester Square last night.Absolutely rammed and not a single copper,not single fine being issued for congregating in a group of more than two,no face mask's or social distancing . Is that the ''selective virus'' at play again with the selective policing policy  and the enforcement of the ''law'' ?


Is there any actual evidence that many of the strong arm police are just hired (Serco?) thugs, dressed up in coppers uniforms or is a FOI request needed? (Probably pointless as it'll get kicked out on the basis of 'national security' or some other such crap)
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Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 0:25

I don't wish to take-up valuable forum space, nor valuable reader time, copying over this whole mawkish twaddle by Marie-Clair Chappet writing for the Telegraph but this snippet couldn't go unnoticed..

Can I persuade my vaccine hesitant mum to have the Covid jab?


Marie-Claire Chappet did not have the MMR jab after her mother was put off by medical scandals. Could experts now quell her fears?

One concern I have had is that the Covid vaccines were brought through too quickly – did that mean corners had been cut? He explained in great detail why that was not the case – and that the amount of money thrown at these vaccine trials allowed them to speed it up. Mostly, he listened – he did not ridicule me or even tell me off when I asked questions that probably seemed silly to him. The impact of my conversation with him cannot be underestimated.

This is the true difference between the stubborn anti-vaxxers, and the vaccine hesitant like me. All we want is more information, for our questions – however daft they may seem – to be understood and answered without judgment. Because that’s how our minds can be changed. I went in with vaccine hesitancy. Now, I’ll be the first in line for the jab.

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.....................

From what I've read on the subject, quite a lot I hasten to add, it is not about money but more about the length of time to understand the virus, develop a vaccine and then test by volunteer trials until the vaccine has proved itself to be 100% safe.

Since when have pharmaceutical companies been short of cash? Everything, everything in life revolves around health - the drugs you need to attend to your everyday needs and preserve life.

Don't need a drug? Never mind, we'll soon find something you can't do without, even if only an analgesic - keep it coming ££££££££££££££ ....

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Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 0:29

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Post by PeterMac on 30.11.20 8:23

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Letters: Sage’s Christmas advice betrays a poor grasp of how most people live
30 November 2020 • 12:01am

SIR – I smiled at some of the suggestions from our eminent scientists in Sage on how to have a safe Christmas.
Three pieces of advice caught my eye: 
have drinks or Christmas dinner outside by a fire pit; 
have two tables so you can socially distance; 
and, if you are a visitor, take your own plates and put them in the dishwasher yourself.
These guidelines certainly tell us something about the lifestyles of Sage members – and their understanding of how most people live.
Dr John Mitchell
 
SIR – The Bank of England recently said that paper money does not carry a high risk of Covid contamination.
Yet we have now been told to avoid boardgames at Christmas in order to prevent infection. Monopoly money can be deadly. It’s difficult to keep up.
Cameron Morice

SIR – As a granny of 93, I can hardly wait to sit next to an open window, especially if it is snowing, to eat my Christmas lunch, as advised.
Then I can catch pneumonia and I will not have to worry about Covid.
Sheila Wickenden
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Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 14:36

I like this woman, she talks a lot of sense..

Covid-19 has plunged us into an existential crisis over the role of the state


When did democratic citizens sign up to this power grab to control personal and family life?

Janet Daley
28 November 2020 • 1:00pm

Who would have thought that a random biological event – not a military conflict, or  global competition for economic dominance or indeed, any other kind of phenomenon that arises from the intentions of sentient beings – could have produced this? Here we are with a crisis of confidence in our political system that goes way beyond the immediate consequences for resources, finances, and healthcare: an existential dilemma that questions the most fundamental assumptions about our relationship to the state.

Never, in living memory, has this country seen the like of it. It certainly surpasses in its profundity, anything encountered in wartime when national conviction and self-belief were on a high. And it exceeds whatever doubt and reckoning was raised by the ideological debates of the Cold War.  The questions that are being asked now occupy an entirely different space from those ethical dilemmas with which political philosophy has been accustomed to deal over the past century.

Never mind wealth redistribution, social equality, free markets vs command economies: those are the easy ones. Or at least they are easy to talk about. You know what vocabulary to use, what the parameters are, and where the arguments go after you have set out the logical rules. But, God help us, what are the cosmic choices we are confronting now?  Here are a few of the more pressing ones. Who is morally responsible for decisions about one’s own life or death? The state? The family? The individual? The community? If not the individual or the family, what institutions should we entrust with that responsibility and what sort of  qualifications (scientific? spiritual? judicial?) are appropriate for it? Following on from that, do people have the right to risk their lives?

The answer to this in general use is: yes, providing it puts no one else in jeopardy. But applying that rule to the present emergency is difficult: if you are considered to be at high risk from the virus, are you within your rights to take a chance of catching it because, for example, you do not believe that a life kept in isolation is worth living? Presumably you could thus be guilty of becoming a burden on the health service which needs to provide care for everyone – but that applies as well to people who smoke or drink excessively and so far anyway, we have not made those activities illegal.

If the Government really is to assume the extraordinary authority which it appears to be taking over what were until very recently regarded as the most personal aspects of life – what distance must be maintained between friends, how many members of a family may be in proximity with one another, whether you can hug your grandmother – complete with surveillance measures to ensure that such judgements are enforced, then it is not just the details that need to be debated.

As I write, there is enormous controversy about the minutiae of the new set of rules that has been laid down, about the lack of fairness and logic in the tier system and the absence of evidence for its application, but much less about the deeper problem. When exactly did we give consent for this drastic usurpation of power by government, which involves a degree of intrusion into private life that was – until a minute  ago – unthinkable? It is impossible to exaggerate how dramatic a change this is in the idea of what government is for, and what living in a free society means.

Similarly, there is a tumultuous argument being conducted about the interventions that the Treasury is making into economic life and its consequences for the balance between public and private sector interests. I agree with the free market advocates who warn that entrenching the role of the state as the main source of subsidy and investment, and thus control of services, is pernicious.  The historical lesson of the last war is certainly alarming. It took two generations for the Sovietisation of the British economy to be unwound – and that it happened at all was a close run thing. So yes, the ways being devised to cope with the present emergency – with the Government paying people’s wages even when they hold jobs that no longer exist – is terrifying in its implications.

As is the creation of more and more initiatives inspired by Franklin Roosevelt’s make-work schemes designed to alleviate the effects of the Great Depression.  There is a crucial difference, after all, between Roosevelt’s problem then, and our problem now: the UK’s collapse was deliberately engineered by government. There was a conscious decision to put the economy into an induced coma, and therefore, you could argue, government had an absolute responsibility to protect people from its effects. But it seems perverse, and is certainly unprecedented, for the state to shut down and then re-open the entire productive economy when it sees fit.

Does it really have a right to do this? Who decided that? The health emergency may have been a calamity that could not have been prevented - but the economic emergency was a political choice. So we are back where we started. What is government for? If modern democracies increasingly take on the social obligations that once belonged to the family (caring for the elderly and infirm), or of private charity (giving medical help to the poor), or of the community (seeing to it that no one starves), should they be held accountable for every death, every case of ill health, every hardship? And if so, are we not, as taxpayers, shutting down all other forms of responsibility and handing them over to the state?

If the Government pays for everything – with our implicit consent – doesn’t it have the automatic right to take whatever decisions it likes, including those about what makes life worth living and what can and should be sacrificed by everyone to prevent anyone dying?  If that is the case, there really is no scope for dissent, except about the details. But at some point the huge questions that loom behind all the quibbles will have to be asked: when exactly did we sign up for this – and is it the kind of society we want?

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Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 14:40

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what

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Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 15:09

Another wise head..

The Government is wrong to suggest that only lockdown has saved us from an overflowing NHS

Ministers are trying their hardest to spin Imperial College's new survey, but the real picture is a little different

Ross Clark
30 November 2020 • 2:02pm

Something tells me to expect a swell of dodgy graphs flooding out of Downing Street in the next 24 hours. I wouldn’t be surprised if, even as I write, Professor Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance are already busy with their felt-tip pens. After all, remember what happened last time that MPs were asked to vote on Covid restrictions? Suddenly, out of nowhere, came the famous graph showing us that we could be suffering 4,000 deaths a day by December – a claim which quickly fell apart as it was revealed it had been drawn weeks earlier, and had already proved wide of the mark.    In fact the seven day average for deaths never passed 437 and is now falling.

We’ve already had some pretty fierce spinning of Imperial College’s React study this morning, with ministers claiming that it is only thanks to lockdown that infection numbers are falling and the NHS has been saved. According to Matt Hancock, the study shows why we can’t “take our foot off the pedal just yet.” The government’s narrative is this: the previous tier structure wasn’t working. Cases were growing exponentially and beginning to overwhelm our hospitals.   Then lockdown came along and reversed the picture. That is why the new tiered structure needs to be far tougher than the old, and virtually the whole of England needs to be in the upper tiers.

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Something tells me to expect a swell of dodgy graphs flooding out of Downing Street in the next 24 hours. I wouldn’t be surprised if, even as I write, Professor Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance are already busy with their felt-tip pens. After all, remember what happened last time that MPs were asked to vote on Covid restrictions? Suddenly, out of nowhere, came the famous graph showing us that we could be suffering 4,000 deaths a day by December – a claim which quickly fell apart as it was revealed it had been drawn weeks earlier, and had already proved wide of the mark.    In fact the seven day average for deaths never passed 437 and is now falling.

We’ve already had some pretty fierce spinning of Imperial College’s React study this morning, with ministers claiming that it is only thanks to lockdown that infection numbers are falling and the NHS has been saved. According to Matt Hancock, the study shows why we can’t “take our foot off the pedal just yet.” The government’s narrative is this: the previous tier structure wasn’t working. Cases were growing exponentially and beginning to overwhelm our hospitals.   Then lockdown came along and reversed the picture. That is why the new tiered structure needs to be far tougher than the old, and virtually the whole of England needs to be in the upper tiers.

Is that true? Not quite. Some hospitals have been put under pressure, to be sure, but talk of hospitals being "overwhelmed" is mere hyperbole. The number of patients in hospital across the UK with Covid 19 (which includes those who have caught it in hospital as well as those who were admitted because they were suffering from it) peaked a week ago at 16,612. To put that into context, before this crisis, and thus disregarding any additional capacity, there were 101,255 general and acute NHS beds in England, 15,392 in Scotland and 10,563 in Wales. As for patients in beds equipped with mechanical ventilation, that peaked on November 24 at 1489.  Before this crisis, England had 4119 critical care beds, Scotland 269 and Wales 153.

Remarkably, while MPs were presented morning, noon and night with the 4,000 deaths a day graph before the lockdown vote, it took a leaked document from NHS Secondary Uses Services to reveal the true picture in hospitals. It revealed that at the time there were 13,000 free hospital beds in England and that 18 percent of critical care beds were then unoccupied. Overall occupancy, revealed the report, was no higher than normal for the time of year.

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Something tells me to expect a swell of dodgy graphs flooding out of Downing Street in the next 24 hours. I wouldn’t be surprised if, even as I write, Professor Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance are already busy with their felt-tip pens. After all, remember what happened last time that MPs were asked to vote on Covid restrictions? Suddenly, out of nowhere, came the famous graph showing us that we could be suffering 4,000 deaths a day by December – a claim which quickly fell apart as it was revealed it had been drawn weeks earlier, and had already proved wide of the mark.    In fact the seven day average for deaths never passed 437 and is now falling.

We’ve already had some pretty fierce spinning of Imperial College’s React study this morning, with ministers claiming that it is only thanks to lockdown that infection numbers are falling and the NHS has been saved. According to Matt Hancock, the study shows why we can’t “take our foot off the pedal just yet.” The government’s narrative is this: the previous tier structure wasn’t working. Cases were growing exponentially and beginning to overwhelm our hospitals.   Then lockdown came along and reversed the picture. That is why the new tiered structure needs to be far tougher than the old, and virtually the whole of England needs to be in the upper tiers.

Is that true? Not quite. Some hospitals have been put under pressure, to be sure, but talk of hospitals being "overwhelmed" is mere hyperbole. The number of patients in hospital across the UK with Covid 19 (which includes those who have caught it in hospital as well as those who were admitted because they were suffering from it) peaked a week ago at 16,612. To put that into context, before this crisis, and thus disregarding any additional capacity, there were 101,255 general and acute NHS beds in England, 15,392 in Scotland and 10,563 in Wales. As for patients in beds equipped with mechanical ventilation, that peaked on November 24 at 1489.  Before this crisis, England had 4119 critical care beds, Scotland 269 and Wales 153.

Remarkably, while MPs were presented morning, noon and night with the 4,000 deaths a day graph before the lockdown vote, it took a leaked document from NHS Secondary Uses Services to reveal the true picture in hospitals. It revealed that at the time there were 13,000 free hospital beds in England and that 18 percent of critical care beds were then unoccupied. Overall occupancy, revealed the report, was no higher than normal for the time of year.

But what about the claim that the fall in case numbers and in numbers of Covid patients being admitted to hospital is only thanks to lockdown? That is a somewhat selective interpretation of Imperial College’s React study published this morning – which regularly tests a randomised sample of the population.  The survey suggests that 0.78 per cent of us had the infection between November 13 and 24, down from 1.32 per cent between October 26 and November 2. The ‘R’ number it estimates at 0.88, or 0.72 if you use only the most recent data. Yet the same study concluded that there had been a slowdown in the epidemic at the end of October, well before we went into lockdown on November 5. It estimated that the R number was at 0.85 per cent between October 26 and November 2, while the previous tier system was in place.  

The government is promising a cost-benefit analysis today. But as usual, we have been presented with modelling on the epidemic without much in the way of modelling on the effect of lockdown – beyond the Office of Budgetary Responsibility’s estimate that GDP will be down by 11 percent over the course of 2020.  

The government can try to spin the Covid infection figures, but it will have a damn harder job spinning the economic bloodbath which it is inflicting on the country.  

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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 17 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 15:18

Latest travel news: Concern grows over plans for vaccine passports

Concerns have been raised over the issuing of ‘Covid passports’ to allow people to travel, with a UK travel operator saying that it could amount to “coercion”.

Human rights advocacy group Liberty said the plans “raise more questions than they answer”, and “could pave the way for a national ID system”.

The Telegraph revealed that Britons who have been inoculated against coronavirus could have their passports stamped to show they have had the vaccine – enabling them to travel freely once again. This, or a similar scheme, has been labelled a “necessity” by the head of Australian airline Qantas for international visitors, prompting Tradewinds Travel to pull all flights with the airline. Korean Air and Air New Zealand also echoed a similar position.

“We feel that bodily autonomy with regard to medical intervention is a personal choice and not something to be forced onto people by businesses,” Tradewinds said in a tweet. “We are not anti-vaccination but we are pro-choice. There is a huge difference between coercion and making a free choice.”

Even the Government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) appears split on the issue. Janet Lord, professor of immune cell biology at the University of Birmingham, said “a vaccine passport does make sense, at least initially”. However, Ian Jones, professor of virology at the University of Reading said: “It is tantamount to making the vaccine compulsory, which no other vaccine is.”

Stamps as proof of being vaccinated were raised last week by Tory MP James Sunderland who asked the Prime Minister whether he had considered “the utility of having vaccination stamps in passports, or an equivalent scheme, to get our plans off the ground”. Mr Johnson replied that Transport Secretary Grant Shapps was “looking at all such schemes" and could offer an assurance that he had heard the call “loud and clear”.

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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 17 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by Verdi on 30.11.20 15:33

Apart from foreseeing a general election on the horizon (how much longer can the nation continue under the leadership of Boris Johnson and his merry men - and women), seriously - who can put an end to this nightmare?

The situation we find ourselves in is a man-made catastrophe and it's destroying life across the globe, realistically there doesn't appear to be an end in sight, despite the hyperbole favouring the dawn of a safe vaccine (no such thing!).  But as has been said before on numerous occasions, this code name COVID-19 (or coronavirus when it suits) is one isolated mutation of an existing virus - if you believe what you're told, and it's the only virus that has so far brought the world to a standstill.  So what happens next time a coronavirus mutation mutates, do we go through the exact same state of hysteria and resultant destruction?  Do we get another vaccination rushed through the pharmaceutical system, another passport to allow us to move about freely, another lengthy period of inertia?

Or perhaps the future has been mapped out without the need for another plandemic ....

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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 17 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by BlueBag on 30.11.20 16:00

NHS are advertising for Vaccinators.... £135 per day!!

They will get training in dealing with "adverse effects".

It was all in the excellent UK Column News today.

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The Coronavirus Debate - Page 17 Empty Re: The Coronavirus Debate

Post by BlueBag on 30.11.20 18:34

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