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Advances in DNA testing could prove link between MM and prime suspect ........... Mm11

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Post by Doug D on 12.06.20 16:01

In the:
 
Re: The latest McCann suspect: Scotland Yard has revealed vital new information about a suspect wanted in connection with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
 
thread @ #643 I suggested the following:
 
Verdi #638:
 
‘And some believe a scrap of blue material taken from her hotel room could be the key that unlocks the case.’
 
Qué?
 
I posted the Sun article about the tiny bit of blue cloth and continuing advances in DNA testing @ #568.
 
Maybe that’s an avenue we should explore and actively encourage as it could open up the argument for further DNA testing à la Dr. Perlin.

 
………………………………………………
 
Jill has requested that I start this as a new thread in the Debate Section so any discussion about it doesn't get lost amongst the original thread.
 
 
The full Sun article is copied below:
 
EVIDENCE HOPE Scrap of material held in Portuguese lab could prove link between Madeleine McCann and prime suspect Christian B
 
Mike Sullivan, Crime Editor
11 Jun 2020, 0:31Updated: 11 Jun 2020, 7:35
 
A TINY SCRAP of blue material held in the vaults of a Portuguese forensic lab could provide the vital link between German suspect Christian B and Madeleine McCann.
Cops hope that continuing advances in DNA testing may yet provide a full profile for comparison with the 43-year-old convicted paedophile and rapist.
 
The material comes from the bedspread draped over the bed Madeleine was sleeping on when she was abducted from her family’s holiday apartment.
Tests uncovered a microscopic a DNA profile initially identified as semen, but later confirmed to be saliva.
Scientists were unable to obtain a full DNA profile at the time but have continued to work on it with new testing techniques.
 
The sample is being held at the National Institute of Legal, Medical and Forensic Science, in Coimbra, near Lisbon.
Forensic tests have also been carried out on particles taken from the floor, sofa, walls and skirting board in the McCann’s apartment at the Ocean Village complex.
 
BUNGLED TESTS
The work has been carried out carefully to try and protect the samples from deteriorating further.
Portuguese scientists at another lab are said to have bungled earlier tests.
 
German prosecutors say no conclusive proof has been discovered to definitely link prime suspect Christian to Madeleine's kidnap.
However, a source told The Sun: “There is still a hope that with continuing forensic advances in DNA testing, a profile might be obtained for proper comparison.”
The case was hampered on the night of Madeleine's disappearance after Portuguese cops failed to seal off the crime scene.
A mass trawl of mobile phones used in the area has established that Christian was in Praia da Luz on the night Madeleine vanished aged three in May 2007.
 
Former Met detective chief inspector Mick Neville, a forensics expert, told the Sun: “DNA technology advances every year and what is seemingly impossible now may be a simple procedure in the future.
“When DNA was first used around 30 years ago a large quantity of blood or other body fluid was required to obtain a full profile of a suspect or victim.
“Now a speck of evidence is all that is needed. The amount required to get a match reduces year on year, whilst the number of techniques to identify DNA increases.”
 
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11834024/scrap-of-material-held-in-portuguese-lab-could-prove-link-between-madeleine-mccann-and-prime-suspect-christian-b/
 
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Post by Flossy on 12.06.20 16:25

Is there a possibility that all DNA samples can be revisited? I would argue if advancements in DNA analysis have improved over the past 13 years then all samples need to be scrutinised.
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Post by Doug D on 14.06.20 7:00

Surprised it’s taken the red tops this long to come up with this slant. If the case against CB has pretty much collapsed, maybe this will be this weeks take on the story to keep the fictioneers going. Perlin still apparently offering his services at no cost.


I'm sorry, but surely it's a 'no brainer' for the PJ, OG and the German police. He must have the appropriate clearances with the US law enforcement agencies, so just let him have access to everything, including all the old stuff.
With the FSS stuff, he didn't even need the physical stuff, just the available data to analyse.


What are they afraid of? (rhetorical)

 
Madeleine McCann DNA bombshell as expert offers to test new suspect samples
 
BY
Tom Towers News Reporter
·       10:22, 13 JUN 2020
 
EXCLUSIVE: Police have seized two vehicles which belonged to Madeleine McCann prime suspect Christian Brueckner – and forensics expert Mark Perlin has offered to analyse any pieces of DNA evidence recovered

 
A DNA expert has offered to test samples from the Madeleine McCann probe in a bid to provide investigators with a new breakthrough.
 
German prisoner Christian Brueckner, 43, has been named as the prime suspect in Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
Though he has not yet been identified by police, German media outlets began circulating his mugshot last week.
 
The convicted paedophile is thought to be serving a prison sentence for the rape of a 72-year-old American tourist in Portugal in 2005 – two years before Madeleine vanished in Praia da Luz.
 
Police have seized two of Brueckner’s old vehicles – a VW camper van he was reportedly living in near the resort where Madeleine disappeared, and a Jaguar XJR6.
 
If forensic teams are able to salvage any samples from them, DNA expert Dr Mark Perlin has offered to analyse the potentially crucial pieces of evidence.
His Cybergenetics company, based in Pittsburgh, the US, possesses a computer programme called TrueAllele, which has been used in hundreds of criminal cases since 2009 and relies on mathematical formula to determine if a certain genotype came from one individual or another.
 
Madeleine McCann latest
Dr Perlin told Daily Star Online: “If relevant DNA was left on the vehicles, comparison can be made with Madeleine’s DNA to find a match statistic.
“Also, the German suspect’s DNA can be compared with the DNA items tested a decade ago in Praia da Luz.
“TrueAllele:registered: computing can analyse data from compromised samples to get useful DNA information.
 
 “If the police need assistance, Cybergenetics would be happy to help at no cost.”
Dr Perlin’s technology has previously helped identify victims of the 9/11 terror attacks.
Last year, it overturned the wrongful murder convictions of two American men – Ralph Birch and Shawn Henning – who had served more than 30 years in prison.
In 2016, Dr Perlin’s lab successfully analysed a small and complex piece of evidence in a high-profile mass murder trial in Australia.
 
It was pivotal in securing a guilty verdict against Robert Xie, who slaughtered five relatives and evaded justice at three earlier trials.
Police have not yet interviewed Brueckner, and the evidence provided so far has been circumstantial.
Earlier this week, German prosecutor Hans Christian Wolter claimed to have evidence that Madeleine is dead.
He told Sky News: "After all the information we got, the girl is dead. We have no information that she is alive.
 
"All indication we have got that I can't tell you points in the direction that Madeleine is dead.
"We got things we cannot communicate that speak for the theory that Madeleine is dead, even if I have to admit that we don't have the body."
Despite the German authorities’ stance, UK cops are still treating the investigation as a missing person inquiry.
 
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/madeleine-mccann-dna-bombshell-expert-22167487?fbclid=IwAR196pJ_ii83lA_7Q8I6zUTxKSv4UL-lBQcRoBOnUEL0_gld9TExaLwd8co
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Post by BlueBag on 14.06.20 8:32

He told Sky News: "After all the information we got, the girl is dead. We have no information that she is alive.
So no evidence.


Just hearsay... and not very good hearsay either if it's the "semi-confession".
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Post by Silentscope on 09.07.20 18:18

Kate McCann is right on one point.

The three Police forces, UK OG, BKA, and PJ need to stop bickering.

And get on with it.
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Post by Silentscope on 10.07.20 9:07

Advances have been made to all the technologies previously applied to this case.

DNA testing.

Quantum physics.

Dogs can sniff out diseases.

Dr Perlin could find the truth with his DNA Computerised test.

Danie Krugel now has 2 Patents granted in the US and SA on his device. He has also invested in a EVRD Dog. He is endorsed by the SA judicia.

If it is now possible for Scientists in Tenerife to teleport a particle from one Island to another or the Chinese can detect a Qauntum tunnelled particle placed on a Satellite in orbit from the ground. DNA from multiple sources spread over ground zero can be identified. Dogs can sniff out COVID 19.

Why wouldn’t it be possible to bust this case? At the rate technologies are advancing time travel might become a reality.

The light shining from Luz is after all only 13 light years away...
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Post by Armchair-defective on 10.07.20 12:19

I don't think any police force or Perlin could test Bruckner's DNA against samples from the apartment or cars considering he has not even been charged with anything or questioned.

 I'm sure there would be no legal way to do that at the moment and his lawyers would object very strongly. 
 Yes it's all just a way fo keeping this latest boogeyman in the papers.
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Post by Doug D on 10.07.20 12:54

No need to test Brueckners DNA against anything at the moment.

Dr Perlin just needs the 'too complex' information already gleaned by Lowe at the FSS to see if he can add some 'meaningful interpretation' to them.
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Post by cookiemuncher on 10.07.20 13:00

@Silentscope wrote:Kate McCann is right on one point.

The three Police forces, UK OG, BKA, and PJ need to stop bickering.

And get on with it.
You're having a laugh surely with that comment or are you part of the McCann team trying yet again to derail the PJ investigation?

I can't even believe you printed that rubbish.  Who started the bickering in the first place, wasn't it those two whiter than saints parents who supposedly left their children in an unlocked (or was it locked, I can't keep up with their change of minds) in an apartment, or was the fairy tale just to fool the public?

Why don't you ask KM why she refused to answer the 48 questions put to her about her own missing daughter.  Surely if they were straight forward questions she would have answered them if she had nothing to hide.

As one member commented some while ago, if it was her child that went missing she would have answered every question and even answered questions the police didn't think about asking.

I wonder if the Mother of April Jones who went missing refused to answer questions from the police?
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Post by Verdi on 10.07.20 13:08

So much faith and potential reliance is being placed on this Dr Perlin and his machine generated forensic analysis theory.

I speak not of the Metropolitan Police and it's enigmatic force, Operation Grange, but of the Portuguese police and their forensic team. Could it be, rather than just ignorantly ignoring a free offer, they see flaws in Dr Perlin's methodology?

Portugal is a civilised country, nestled in with a civilised Europe - they will follow developments in technology and decide on true merit through scientific research.

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Post by Verdi on 10.07.20 13:20

@Armchair-defective wrote:I don't think any police force or Perlin could test Bruckner's DNA against samples from the apartment or cars considering he has not even been charged with anything or questioned.

 I'm sure there would be no legal way to do that at the moment and his lawyers would object very strongly. 
 Yes it's all just a way fo keeping this latest boogeyman in the papers.

Quite right thumbsup !

If Germany believes the prisoner to be involved in any way with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, they need to build a good solid case before even thinking of a prosecution. They haven't got anything, that is quite apparent. Lord 'arry, he's apparently been on their radar for two decades and all they've got is a continent of hearsay, past convictions that may or may not be and a phone call - even that's a bit tenuous.

So far it's all bluster. I don't believe for a moment this new kid on the block was involved in any way - he's just that, a novel suspect to keep the papers newsy and team McCann happy. If he even exists in terms of flesh and blood!

When's the next documentary waiting ?

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Post by cookiemuncher on 10.07.20 13:41

@Verdi wrote:
@Armchair-defective wrote:I don't think any police force or Perlin could test Bruckner's DNA against samples from the apartment or cars considering he has not even been charged with anything or questioned.

 I'm sure there would be no legal way to do that at the moment and his lawyers would object very strongly. 
 Yes it's all just a way fo keeping this latest boogeyman in the papers.

Quite right thumbsup  !

If Germany believes the prisoner to be involved in any way with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, they need to build a good solid case before even thinking of a prosecution.  They haven't got anything, that is quite apparent.  Lord 'arry, he's apparently been on their radar for two decades and all they've got is a continent of hearsay, past convictions that may or may not be and a phone call - even that's a bit tenuous.

So far it's all bluster.  I don't believe for a moment this new kid on the block was involved in any way - he's just that, a novel suspect to keep the papers newsy and team McCann happy.  If he even exists in terms of flesh and blood!

When's the next documentary waiting  ?
The new member "silentscope" seems to be going out his/her way to convince the forum that CB is to blame for Madeleine's death/her body being taken away/her abduction etc etc but never answers any questions about the cadaver odour which I keep asking about.

He/she has now stated that Kate McCann said that the PJ, SY(OG), BK?? whatever it is should get their act together and stop squabbling, but I can't remember KM saying any such thing recently, unless I've missed something.  Is he/she in contact with the McCanns and have concocted this whole rubbish between them, I wonder.
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Post by Verdi on 10.07.20 15:58


@cookiemuncher

Member Silentscope is new in town, just as you are and should be treated with the same degree of respect and/or tolerance.

Don't quote me but from memory, I believe (amongst other things) Silentscope is questioning whether or not it was/is possible that the German suspect might have been involved with disposal of a corpse. Not with direct liaison with the McCanns themselves but through a third/fourth/fifth contact. I'm sure s/he will correct me if wrong.

As regards the comment Kate Mccann allegedly made, we all make off-the-cuff statements from time to time - quite frequently with tongue in cheek.

Leave it cookiemuncher. If you have a counter argument to offer on any one topic then feel free to challenge, otherwise just ignore what you read if you don't like it singlerose

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Post by cookiemuncher on 10.07.20 16:06

@Verdi wrote:
@cookiemuncher

Member Silentscope is new in town, just as you are and should be treated with the same degree of respect and/or tolerance.

Don't quote me but from memory, I believe (amongst other things) Silentscope is questioning whether or not it was/is possible that the German suspect might have been involved with disposal of a corpse.  Not with direct liaison with the McCanns themselves but through a third/fourth/fifth contact.  I'm sure s/he will correct me if wrong.

As regards the comment Kate Mccann allegedly made, we all make off-the-cuff statements from time to time - quite frequently with tongue in cheek.

Leave it cookiemuncher.  If you have a counter argument to offer on any one topic then feel free to challenge, otherwise just ignore what you read if you don't like it  singlerose

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Yes, I know what he's saying I've read all of his comments so far, I was just asking when Kate McCann said that statement about the PJ, SY(OG) and DK should be working together.

I won't say another word about it.  My lips are sealed.
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Post by Silentscope on 10.07.20 16:54

It is an investigation and the evidence is already there. Just like a Jigsaw puzzle, we all have to find out which parts fit where. 

If the EVRD / Blood Dogs could all be trained to talk and type we would be happier or?

The fact is, legally, they can only give indication of where proof may be located, and then it must be legally interpreted to become evidence. Then someone must decide if it is admissible evidence at a trial.

I have more faith in the BKA as you do, I hope they will either confirm or rule out CB’s involvement but it may take time. If it opens up other lines of enquires that break the case wide open we will all be relieved.

I would ask forgiveness for getting on anyone’s nerves. I will try and provide a link to the comment you queried.

I will not be correcting anyone, as at the moment I cannot even prove if I myself am correct!
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Post by Silentscope on 10.07.20 17:51

@Armchair-defective wrote:I don't think any police force or Perlin could test Bruckner's DNA against samples from the apartment or cars considering he has not even been charged with anything or questioned.
I'm sure there would be no legal way to do that at the moment and his lawyers would object very strongly. 
Yes it's all just a way fo keeping this latest boogeyman in the papers.
Christian Bs DNA profile was already taken years ago By the BKA when was suspected of murdering a prostitute. 

It was no doubt taken again on his arrest in Italy and when he was admitted to Prison in Kiel.

The BKA have to do their Homework so they can filter out what he really knows - as opposed to what he has heard or read about this case. He will be interviewed maybe several times, before being charged with any of his multiple alleged crimes- not just Maddies case.

It may be there is some Legal method of objection to his Profile being given to any Foreign investigating forces.
I will do some digging there and post anything for you all. It has been reported in German papers that the Portuguese have received requests for FOI, but they are not saying from which countries.

The Papers are definitely using every opportunity to increase sales, but we all know what is written isn’t for our education and benefit. That’s just the way it is...
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Post by Armchair-defective on 12.07.20 12:11

@Silentscope wrote:
@Armchair-defective wrote:I don't think any police force or Perlin could test Bruckner's DNA against samples from the apartment or cars considering he has not even been charged with anything or questioned.
I'm sure there would be no legal way to do that at the moment and his lawyers would object very strongly. 
Yes it's all just a way fo keeping this latest boogeyman in the papers.
Christian Bs DNA profile was already taken years ago By the BKA when was suspected of murdering a prostitute. 

It was no doubt taken again on his arrest in Italy and when he was admitted to Prison in Kiel.

The BKA have to do their Homework so they can filter out what he really knows - as opposed to what he has heard or read about this case. He will be interviewed maybe several times, before being charged with any of his multiple alleged crimes- not just Maddies case.

It may be there is some Legal method of objection to his Profile being given to any Foreign investigating forces.
I will do some digging there and post anything for you all. It has been reported in German papers that the Portuguese have received requests for FOI, but they are not saying from which countries.

The Papers are definitely using every opportunity to increase sales, but we all know what is written isn’t for our education and benefit. That’s just the way it is...

I know they will have Bruckner's DNA, but....one countries police force cannot request samples ( or in fact the data extracted from DNA) from another country based on 'we suspect someone but we haven't questioned him yet'. It's just not going to happen.

 With regards to some people thinking Dr Perlin's offer would be a kind of miracle I don't see it that way. His software does have the ability to sort out who is in a mixed sample but it could also be another inconclusive result.

Again there's a question of procedure and legality. The UK police will have their own Probabilistic software that does similar things ( John Lowe of the FSS was involved in developing STR mix) They will have been working towards testing and validating this, the Met are hardly going to publically endorse software from the US from a private company, it would open up all kinds of questions and appeals on cases where other software had been used.
  Personally I think the Data could well have been retested by Portugal or the Met but they are not divulging the results, why would they before an investigation has finished?
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Post by Silentscope on 12.07.20 12:26

The only way I can see to break the deadlock without making a conflict of interests, judicies and legalities is this.

Portugal could decide to alter the level of DNA proof required.

IT IS LESS EVERYWHERE ELSE. -  UK, D, US

But that’s why it was chosen PORTUGAL was selected as the scene of this crime isn’t it? The burden of proof is so high.

Or would it prove that either in IVF the Sperm or the Egg was donated?
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Post by Armchair-defective on 12.07.20 13:22

@Silentscope wrote:The only way I can see to break the deadlock without making a conflict of interests, judicies and legalities is this.

Portugal could decide to alter the level of DNA proof required.

IT IS LESS EVERYWHERE ELSE. -  UK, D, US

But that’s why it was chosen PORTUGAL was selected as the scene of this crime isn’t it? The burden of proof is so high.

Or would it prove that either in IVF the Sperm or the Egg was donated?

You're off into fantasy land here. Madeleine was Kate and Gerry's kid. Easily proven from DNA from them, Sean and Amelie. I won't bother replying when things start going down the path of her never even existing or a podesta brother having a budget knees up in a mediocre holiday complex for no particular reason. waiting
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Post by Verdi on 12.07.20 13:37

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Date: 2007/05/09

Subject: Laboratory Analysis of the samples gathered with regard to the disappearance of the child Madeleine McCann.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm


THE FORENSIC SCIENE SERVICE
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN
FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior

Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks

Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

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Post by Verdi on 12.07.20 13:42

@Armchair-defective wrote:
You're off into fantasy land here. Madeleine was Kate and Gerry's kid. Easily proven from DNA from them, Sean and Amelie. I won't bother replying when things start going down the path of her never even existing or a podesta brother having a budget knees up in a mediocre holiday complex for no particular reason

Exact! Post of the week high5 .

It's pointless trying to argue fiction - leave it alone and it should burn itself out.

Hopefully.

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Post by Silentscope on 12.07.20 14:39

Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral

22-08-2007

Reply to Queries

- We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.


- Samples were studied - hair and a piece of cloth - nuclear DNA profiles only being obtained from 4 samples, which upon comparison with the DNA profiles of Kate and Gerry, could not belong to the girl.
BC.

- As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.



They cannot distinguish between Maddie and Amelie. Therefore could was written. Not IS being from. FSS bottom line was that the SAMPLE is a match to the parents. Not WHOSE sample was provided to be tested.
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Advances in DNA testing could prove link between MM and prime suspect ........... Empty Re: Advances in DNA testing could prove link between MM and prime suspect ...........

Post by Silentscope on 12.07.20 15:53

If the LCN test had previously been ruled In Court as being unreliable and inconclusive enough and  to be unable to convict IRA suspected terrorists in an earlier case.

Why use it at all? 

Unless perhaps you DO NOT want to know? 

And don’t want anything proved in Court.
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Advances in DNA testing could prove link between MM and prime suspect ........... Empty Re: Advances in DNA testing could prove link between MM and prime suspect ...........

Post by Silentscope on 14.07.20 21:26

Two weeks of stunned silence....

How can a Policeman allow a Prime Suspect unsupervised access to potentially crucial evidence in any case?
What did they think he would provide them with?

Unbelievable!
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