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The Tale of Pamela Fenn:  A Crying Game Mm11

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The Tale of Pamela Fenn: A Crying Game

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Post by Verdi on 05.04.20 23:57

Between the two of them, Gerry and Kate McCann placed much emphasis on the crying incident - or should that be incidents.

According to different accounts, days changed, times changed and why changed and who changed. The differing versions however appeared to be ironed out by an independent witness to the crying incident, in the name of Pamela Fenn, a British Ocean Club complex resident who, it would appear, came to the rescue to verify at least one account of a child crying for a specified length of time.

But who was telling the truth .... who was creating a scenario for effect .... who was covering for who?  

Esteemed CMOMM and MMRG member Tony Bennett posted this interesting - some might say controversial, insight into the witness Pamela Fenn's extraordinary input, published here on CMOMM way back in October 2015.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007


1. On her own admission, she did not report the crying incident to the police at the time, or later

2. She appears to have been prompted into making her statement by the McCann Team

[BRIEF EXPLANATION: In early August, the McCann Team were reeling from Martin Grime’s visit to Praia da Luz, and from a stream of lurid headlines about blood, a corpse, DNA etc.

Then suddenly, on Saturday 18 August 2007, a spate of stories about Madeleine appeared in the British mainstream press. These stories spoke of three events: (i) a burglary (either 1, 2, 3 or ‘several’ weeks before the week of 28 April to 5 May), (ii) a suspicious blond man allegedly seen quietly opening and closing the gate to the McCanns’ apartment garden, and (iii) Madeleine crying for 75 minutes on the night of Tuesday 1 May.
These stories show clear evidence of having been planted by the McCann Team.

These stories contained correct information about when Mrs Fenn was going to be interviewed and exactly what she was going to say – two days before she was interviewed.

This is suggestive at least of co-operation between the McCann Team and Mrs Fenn.

Her story fed the public with images of burglars and suspicious men, confirmed that Madeleine was alive on 1st May, and corroborated the McCanns’ account of the McCanns leaving their children in the apartment for periods whilst they dined out]

3. Mrs Fenn’s account of a burglary at her home in the weeks before 28th April is at the very least open to doubt. If she was not truthful about that, we simply cannot use her statement as evidence of anything.

4. Despite a child allegedly continually crying and sobbing for 75 minutes, with other properties all around, not one other person has ever corroborated the ‘crying incident’. No-one else heard it.

5. Mrs Fenn says that she ’phoned and spoke to a Mrs Edna Glyn ‘some time after 11.00pm’, that is, after the crying had been going on for over half-an-hour. We have never seen any corroboration of this from Mrs Glyn

6. It is claimed by Mrs Fenn that when she spoke to Mrs Glyn, she replied: ‘I am not surprised’. According to Mrs Fenn’s evidence, the child she heard crying was sobbing continually - and so must have been audible to her and Mrs Glyn as they were talking (if they were). Yet on Mrs Fenn’s evidence, neither of them bothered to lift a finger about it. They could have called the police or the Ocean Club. But they did nothing

7. In any event, Mrs Fenn’s account of contacting Mrs Glyn about the crying appears to conflict with the account of a police officer, who testified that Robert Murat had said that ‘some foreign woman’ had ’phoned him up on the night of the ‘crying incident’

8. The description Mrs Fenn gives about the age of the child that she says she heard crying is strange, clumsy and contrived. Allowing for the possibility that something may have been ‘lost in translation’, her statement says that the crying was coming from directly below her and that “the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger”. The twins were two years and two months during the holiday in Praia da Luz. Thus Pamela Fenn’s statement appears to rule them out. There is at least a suspicion therefore that her statement has been carefully crafted to suggest that it was Madeleine that was crying  

9. A news clip about Mrs Fenn appeared on SIC TV, Portugal, on 22 August two days after her statement at Portimao Police Station. In it, she denied having any information about the case:

“Mrs Pamela Fenn, the British octogenarian who lives above the apartment from where Maddie disappeared, says she has been harassed by the unwanted interest of journalist, and has denied having spoken with the police. [b>She said she didn't have any information about the case.

At the age 81, this quiet, retired British woman seems to have been seriously shaken. After an outburst by her at her hairdressers, news that she was a witness in the Madeleine McCann case quickly became known to journalists' ears…According to what she was said to have told the police, the night before Madeleine was reported missing, she heard a child crying and calling for her father for a long time.

The fact that she spends most of the day on her veranda, with a view across to the Tapas restaurant, made the police return to the Ocean Club on Monday morning. Detectives quizzed her for about four hours to see if she had seen someone from the McCann group leave the restaurant to go and check on the children. .

Angry at the journalists' questions, Mrs Fenn denied being a witness in the case and said that what the press were saying was ‘pure speculation’.

10. Mrs Fenn herself was interviewed for the programme and said that anything she was supposed to have said to the police was ‘rubbish’.

[TRANSCRIPT:  

“Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months. [She means: ‘This happened three months ago’. Mrs Fenn had lived I Praia da Luz for years]  Until all this happened, I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in the newspapers. I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighing)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it”. ]


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

STATEMENT OF Mrs Pamela Fenn, 20 August 2007

Mrs Fenn’s statement, taken in Praia da Luz on the 20th of August 2007:

Included in the files as a witness statement.

Being of British nationality and in spite of living in Portugal, does not have knowledge of the Portuguese language in its oral and written form, therefore a police interpreter is present, UEVE VAN LOOCK. Thus, according to the facts noted in the files, she says that she has lived in the apartment since 2003, which is located on the upper floor, immediately above the room from which the child disappeared.

She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ‘Daddy, Daddy’. The witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.

When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor. As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.


That night she contacted a friend called EDNA GLYN, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23.00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the child’s crying.

She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.

On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a ‘photo fit’.

During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ‘We have let her down’, which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.

She said that after the mother’s shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognise the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search.

When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late.

When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence.

She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCanns, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street.

She never saw them with any vehicle.

She also said that she never told the McCanns that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering.

When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.

Having read and approved the statement, she signs, together with the interpreter.

Tony Bennett - 10th October 2015

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Post by worriedmum on 06.04.20 0:19

''Then suddenly, on Saturday 18 August 2007, a spate of stories about Madeleine appeared in the British mainstream press. These stories spoke of three events: (i) a burglary (either 1, 2, 3 or ‘several’ weeks before the week of 28 April to 5 May), (ii) a suspicious blond man allegedly seen quietly opening and closing the gate to the McCanns’ apartment garden, and (iii) Madeleine crying for 75 minutes on the night of Tuesday 1 May.
These stories show clear evidence of having been planted by the McCann Team.

These stories contained correct information about when Mrs Fenn was going to be interviewed and exactly what she was going to say – two days before she was interviewed.

This is suggestive at least of co-operation between the McCann Team and Mrs Fenn.''





Tony I suggest another explanation is possible and even likely-


Team McCann, having heard that Mrs Fenn's statemenet, which had probably been common knowledge in the ex-pat community if it had been discussed at the hairdresser's, was about to break and so decided to muddy the waters. Step forward mysterious blond man, and would-be burglars. Thus the crying incident is velcro-ed to the idea of strangers.




I think the ''sounds like a child of more than two years old'' phrase is easily explained. When she is asked to give her account, she is asked by the officer whether she thought it was  a baby or a child of 'more than two' (the age of the twins), When her statement is written up, this is included as an important fact for consideration.


I don't think you can read anything in to the fact that she did not ring the police/Ocean Club at the time. Some people don't like to make a fuss and she couldn't guess what was going to happen. She rang her friend for advice. It sounds totally plausible.


I would not discredit her evidence nor her character.
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Post by Verdi on 06.04.20 1:26

@worriedmum wrote:
I don't think you can read anything in to the fact that she did not ring the police/Ocean Club at the time. Some people don't like to make a fuss and she couldn't guess what was going to happen. She rang her friend for advice. It sounds totally plausible.

The PJ carried out house to house enquiries following the report of Madeleine McCann's disappearance - routine policing.

Pamela Fenn was said to be in residence at the time, she therefore would have been informally interviewed, most likely on Friday 4th May 2007, during the preliminary routine police investigation.  

Had she provided information about the crying incident or her niece's suspicion  it would be recorded in the PJ files.  She didn't, she waited for some time before coming forward with potentially vital information to assist the investigation!  There is no official documentation to confirm that she called her friend, it's nothing more than hearsay.

Then we have her niece Carole Tranmer and her extraordinary lengthy witness statement, randomly proffered but explosive in terms of suspicious lurkers (read abductors).

Reason enough to arouse suspicion.

Look deeper - think beyond ....

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Post by Tony Bennett on 06.04.20 8:07

@worriedmum

The case for suggesting that Mrs Pamela Fenn was an untruthful witness consists of many separate points and anyone suggesting she was telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth needs to answer every point I have addressed in the post @Verdi has quoted and in my other posts on Mrs Fenn.

On the hairdresser incident, have you carefully considered, @worriedmum, WHO took that film of Mrs Fenn at the hairdresser and WHY it was released? Do hairdressers normally film their customers having their hairdos?

I allege that this film at the hairdressers was yet another cunning set-up in this case, designed to 'prove' that the McCanns were out at Chaplins on Tuesday night, for which I think there is no good evidence.

(I am going by my memory of the 'hairdresser video'. Perhaps @Verdi would be good enough to find it and post it please).

It must be added that the Mrs Fenn story SUPPORTS the McCanns narrative.

Whereas the 'Last Photo' being taken on Sunday, not Thursday, is one of a number of pieces of evidence that virtually DESTROYS that narrative

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by worriedmum on 06.04.20 12:01

Tony, if you are saying that Mrs Fenn's  statement is untrustworthy because she would surely have rung the police if she had really heard crying, then logically you must discount the Gaspar statements because they didn't tell the police immediately either. 

Personally I believe both of them.


As for the hairdresser, I'm guessing that a reporter went there deliberately to get a scoop after hearing about it on the grapevine. It's poor quality filming.
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Post by Jill Havern on 06.04.20 12:08

Would a reporter make a poor quality film thinking

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Post by worriedmum on 06.04.20 13:29

@Jill Havern wrote:Would a reporter make a poor quality film thinking
 I think yes, if it's undercover.  They may not have done it before.
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Post by Verdi on 06.04.20 15:41

Tony wrote:(I am going by my memory of the 'hairdresser video'. Perhaps @Verdi would be good enough to find it and post it please).

The video clip was taken from 'Madeleine McCann Informe Especial Chile Documentary August 2007'

The sound quality is abysmal, I can't vouch for the accuracy but blogger, Textusa, published this transcript of the hairdresser scene.  You can watch at 27:49 minutes..

“Hairdresser: They left them awake didn’t they? Because on the Tuesday… there’s a lady who lives above she comes in to have her hair done… and she was saying that Madeleine was crying on the Tuesday… from 10 o´clock until quarter to twelve in a panic...

Reporter: What?... and they, they not come to... to see?

Hairdresser: No, they were at Chaplin’s that night.

Reporter: In the Chaplin? Not in the other restaurant?

Hairdresser: Not on the Tuesday.”


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Post by Verdi on 06.04.20 15:48

Mom: Madeleine Had "Sense Of Danger"

"Every day, it's very hard without Madeleine, and we all miss her so much. It certainly feels like there's a big void in our life without her."

Little Madeleine McCann's mother, Kate McCann, summed up the feelings of her and her husband, Gerry McCann, Madeleine's father, in an interview in late August. It was done in Lisbon, Portugal, with reporter Mirna Schindler of Chile's Television Nacional, for "Informe Especial" -- their 60 Minutes.

Madeleine vanished from her parents' vacation villa in Portugal five months ago, and Kate and Gerry, who live in England, have been named suspects in the disappearance by Portuguese authorities. They adamantly deny any involvement.

The Television Nacional interview was the last they gave before being named suspects. British and Portuguese law bars them from granting interviews, now that they're officially under suspicion. But they did give an interview to a local British newspaper recently.

The Early Show has exclusive United States rights to the Chilean network's interview, and is showing it in two parts. One aired Friday, and the other will be broadcast Monday.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mom-madeleine-had-sense-of-danger/

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Post by Tony Bennett on 06.04.20 18:27

@worriedmum wrote:Tony, if you are saying that Mrs Fenn's statement is untrustworthy because she would surely have rung the police if she had really heard crying, then logically you must discount the Gaspar statements because they didn't tell the police immediately either. 

REPLY: I assume you have never read any of my posts on this forum explaining the many, many reasons for believing that Pamela Fenn is an untruthful witness. Her failure to contact ANYONE, let alone the police, apart from her friend Edna Glyn, after hearing a child crying LOUDER AND LOUDER for 75 minutes is only one of many reasons. Here (below) are some of them again for the record.

Incidentally you are quire wrong about the Gaspars. According to their statement, they were prompted to contact the police only because, days after Madeleine was reported missing, they saw footage of David Payne together with the McCanns.  IIRC they contacted Leicestershire Police almost immediately. It was Leicestershire Police that delayed sending the statement to Portugal for nearly 6 months.    

Also, Edna Glyn was not local to Praia da Luz. She was her friend from the Isle of Man, still living there in 2007  

As for the hairdresser, I'm guessing that a reporter went there deliberately to get a scoop after hearing about it on the grapevine. It's poor quality filming.

REPLY: Come on! A reporter hears about something on the grapevine and is then given permission by both the hairdresser and Mrs Fenn to take a film in which they 'happen' to confirm the very thing he is interested in - the alleged crying incident and the alleged visit to Chaplins???

In the words of John McEnroe, you cannot be serious.  

Have you not considered the blindingly obvious? This piece of amateur film was a complete set-up.

10 REASONS WHICH SUGGEST THAT PAMELA FENN DID NOT HEAR ANY CHILD CRYING ON TUESDAY 1 MAY 2007
 
1.   On her own admission, she did not report the crying incident to the police at the time, or later

2.   She appears to have been prompted into making her statement by the McCann Team
 
[BRIEF EXPLANATION:  In early August, the McCann Team were reeling from Martin Grime’s visit to Praia da Luz, and from a stream of lurid headlines about blood, a corpse, DNA etc.

Then suddenly, on Saturday 18 August 2007, a spate of stories about Madeleine appeared in the British mainstream press. These stories spoke of three events: (i) a burglary (either 1, 2, 3 or ‘several’ weeks before the week of 28 April to 5 May), (ii) a suspicious blond man allegedly seen quietly opening and closing the gate to the McCanns’ apartment garden, and (iii) Madeleine crying for 75 minutes on the night of Tuesday 1 May.

These stories show clear evidence of having been planted by the McCann Team.

These stories contained correct information about when Mrs Fenn was going to be interviewed and exactly what she was going to say – two days before she was interviewed.

This is suggestive at least of co-operation between the McCann Team and Mrs Fenn.

Her story fed the public with images of burglars and suspicious men, confirmed that Madeleine was alive on 1st May, and corroborated the McCanns’ account of the McCanns leaving their children in the apartment for periods whilst they dined out]
 
3.   Mrs Fenn’s account of a burglary at her home in the weeks before 28th April is at the very least open to doubt. If she was not truthful about that, we simply cannot use her statement as evidence of anything.

4.   Despite a child allegedly continually crying and sobbing for 75 minutes, with other properties all around, not one other person has ever corroborated the ‘crying incident’. No-one else heard it.

5.   Mrs Fenn says that she ’phoned and spoke to a Mrs Edna Glyn ‘some time after 11.00pm’, that is, after the crying had been going on for over half-an-hour. We have never seen any corroboration of this from Mrs Glyn

6.   It is claimed by Mrs Fenn that when she spoke to Mrs Glyn, she replied: ‘I am not surprised’. According to Mrs Fenn’s evidence, the child she heard crying was sobbing continually - and so must have been audible to her and Mrs Glyn as they were talking (if they were). Yet on Mrs Fenn’s evidence, neither of them bothered to lift a finger about it. They could have called the police or the Ocean Club. But they did nothing

7.   In any event, Mrs Fenn’s account of contacting Mrs Glyn about the crying appears to conflict with the account of a police officer, who testified that Robert Murat had said that ‘some foreign woman’ had ’phoned him up on the night of the ‘crying incident’

8.   The description Mrs Fenn gives about the age of the child that she says she heard crying is strange, clumsy and contrived. Allowing for the possibility that something may have been ‘lost in translation’, her statement says that the crying was coming from directly below her and that “the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger”. The twins were two years and two months during the holiday in Praia da Luz. Thus Pamela Fenn’s statement appears to rule them out. There is at least a suspicion therefore that her statement has been carefully crafted to suggest that it was Madeleine that was crying  

9. A news clip about Mrs Fenn appeared on SIC TV, Portugal, on 22 August two days after her statement at Portimao Police Station. In it, she denied having any information about the case:
 
TRANSCRIPT:

“Mrs Pamela Fenn, the British octogenarian who lives above the apartment from where Maddie disappeared, says she has been harassed by the unwanted interest of journalist, and has denied having spoken having spoken with the police. She said she didn’t know anything about the case.

At the age 81, this quiet, retired British woman seems to have been seriously shaken. After an outburst by her at her hairdressers, news that she was a witness in the Madeleine McCann case quickly became known to journalists' ears…According to what she was said to have told the police, the night before Madeleine was reported missing, she heard a child crying and calling for her father for a long time. 

The fact that she spends most of the day on her veranda, with a view across to the Tapas restaurant, made the police return to the Ocean Club on Monday morning. Detectives quizzed her for about four hours to see if she had seen someone from the McCann group leave the restaurant to go and check on the children. 


Angry at the journalists' questions, Mrs Fenn denied being a witness in the case and said that what the press were saying was ‘pure speculation’.

10. Mrs Fenn herself was interviewed for the programme and said that anything she was supposed to have said to the police was ‘rubbish’.
 
[ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT OF MRS FENN'S WORDS IN THE INTERVIEW:  

Honestly, I have... I know nothing. I have been here three months. [She means: ‘This happened three months ago’. Mrs Fenn had lived I Praia da Luz for years]  Until all this happened, I've never spoken to a journalist, they've written rubbish in the newspapers. I've never even uttered a word! I've never (sighing)... it's all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it”. ]


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

NOTE: In a separate thread I have given many reasons for distrusting all that is said by Pamela Fenn, Carole Tramner and the media about an alleged attempted burglary at her flat: 

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11905-was-there-an-attempted-burglary-of-mrs-pamela-fenns-flat-in-the-weeks-before-madeleine-was-reported-missing


The burglary story was manufactured in order to promote the McCanns' abduction narrative, just like the crying incident. Do you or anyone else on this forum seriously believe the tale that she leapt to try and grab his foot as he was leaping out of her living room window to the ground over 15 feet below?

Some people will believe anything to 'prove' that Madeleine McCann was alive after Sunday

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by crusader on 06.04.20 19:26

What possible reason would  Pamela Fenn & Carol Tranmer have for helping the Mccann's ?
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Post by Tony Bennett on 06.04.20 21:17

@crusader wrote:What possible reason would  Pamela Fenn & Carol Tranmer have for helping the McCann's ?

I will give the same answer as when I've been repeatedly asked: "What possible reason would Martin Smith and his children have for lying about 'Smithman'?

There are many reasons why people lie.

Among them:

1 Personal loyalty

2 Bribery

3 Inducements

4 Threats

5 Money

6 Some degree of involvement in or connection to the crime.

I have analysed all the key statements in this case as to whether they are credible and/or have 'the ring of truth' about them.

I have analysed the Fenn and Smiths' statements and find both woefully lacking in credibility.

In this case of all cases, we simply cannot take any witness statement at face value; all have to be checked for e.g. inconsistencies, contradictions, changes of story, lack of checkable information, vagueness, improbabilities, delay in reporting etc.

Finally I would add that there are many odd features about Praia da Luz and its people.

Robert Murat for starters. A witness said he had child sexual abuse images on his computer.

Then look at all the people he was directly connected with e.g. Pamela Fenn and Martin Smith. Someone on this forum once described him as 'The Dauphin of Praia da Luz'.

Paedophile Sir Clement Freud lived there part of the year.

Freemason Edward Smethurst, the McCanns' co-ordinating lawyer, holidayed there for three weeks every year well before 2007.

Jon Corner used to visit regularly.

Rev Hubbard was jet-setted in to Praia da Luz within three days of Madeleine's disappearance.

Father Pacheco said he would take the McCanns' secrets to his grave.

Sergey Malinka, who wiped his computer before the PJ could get to it, was a close friend of Murat.

I have question marks in my mind about the ex-pat community over there

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by worriedmum on 06.04.20 21:20

''Incidentally you are quire wrong about the Gaspars. According to their statement, they were prompted to contact the police only because, days after Madeleine was reported missing, they saw footage of David Payne together with the McCanns.  IIRC they contacted Leicestershire Police almost immediately. It was Leicestershire Police that delayed sending the statement to Portugal for nearly 6 months. ''




No Tony. with respect I am NOT wrong about the Gaspars. 


They reported to the police WHEN MADELEINE WENT MISSING.


They did NOT report the alleged incidents either when they happened OR immediately on their return from their holiday with the Paynes and McCanns. 


If it is your contention that her failure to report the crying incident makes Mrs Fenn 's statement less than reliable, then logically you should apply the same yardstick to the Gaspars.  Personally.I believe both statements are true. And the fact that no parent in the Tapas group heard the crying strengthens the argument that they were NOT checking on their children.
 

Secondly. I do not think the footage in the hairdressers was 'agreed to' by anyone. And if I remember correctly,it is not Mrs Fenn in the hairdressers,but the person carrying out the covert filming.
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Post by crusader on 06.04.20 21:34

I also think Martin Smith and family have no reason to help the Mccann's, ie I believe them.

The only way you can put forward your belief that Madeleine was missing earlier in the week is to discredit any witness that does not back this up.
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Post by worriedmum on 06.04.20 21:50

Yes I believe the Smiths.
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Post by Verdi on 06.04.20 22:04

This thread is about Pamela Fenn and the alleged child crying incident, not the Smith family.

Please keep on topic moderator .

I thank you!

If you wish to discuss the Smith sighting you can do so here..

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16777-the-tale-of-smithman#414349

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Post by Tony Bennett on 06.04.20 22:54

@crusader wrote:I also think Martin Smith and family have no reason to help the McCanns, i.e. I believe them.

The only way you can put forward your belief that Madeleine was missing earlier in the week is to discredit any witness that does not back this up.

I expect you also believe that the Last Photo was taken on cool, cloudy and windy Thursday and not on sunny Sunday "because I have no reason to think the McCanns aren't telling the truth and I believe them"

The Tale of Pamela Fenn:  A Crying Game Zzzzzz25
Sunday or Thursday?

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Tony Bennett on 06.04.20 23:05

@worriedmum wrote:No Tony, with respect I am NOT wrong about the Gaspars. 

They reported to the police WHEN MADELEINE WENT MISSING.

They did NOT report the alleged incidents either when they happened OR immediately on their return from their holiday with the Paynes and McCanns. 

If it is your contention that her failure to report the crying incident makes Mrs Fenn's statement less than reliable, then logically you should apply the same yardstick to the Gaspars...the fact that no parent in the Tapas group heard the crying strengthens the argument that they were NOT checking on their children.
 
Secondly. I do not think the footage in the hairdressers was 'agreed to' by anyone. And if I remember correctly,it is not Mrs Fenn in the hairdressers, but the person carrying out the covert filming.

Like I said, I do not rely on Mrs Fenn not reporting the crying incident for 111 days, it is merely one of many reasons why I find her statements about (a) the alleged crying incident and (b) the alleged burglary untruthful. You must be aware of all the other 20-odd reasons I have given about these two matters.

Can you now give me satisfactory answers to the other 19 points I've made about Mrs Fenn's statements?  

On the short hairdresser film, I think it exists and I think it would be helpful if we could view it.

It will not make complete sense to us, however, unless we know:

WHO took it

WHEN it was taken

WHO knew about it

WHO put it in to the public domain and HOW, and

WHY it was taken

WHEN it was put into the public domain and

WHY it was put into the public domain.

Like anything in this case @worriedmum, we need to analyse it properly and not simply take people at face value all the time

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by crusader on 06.04.20 23:33

I fully believe the McCann's said the last photo was taken on the Thursday was to deceive.

Yes it does fit with the thinking that it was to prove Madeleine was alive on Thursday. I have seen enough weather charts and evidence to prove that it could not have been taken on the Thursday but on the Sunday.

Just for the record I DO NOT believe the McCann's are telling the truth.

I  do however believe total strangers have no reason to lie.
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Post by Verdi on 07.04.20 1:05

Tony wrote:On the short hairdresser film, I think it exists and I think it would be helpful if we could view it.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16808-the-tale-of-pamela-fenn-a-crying-game#415833


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Post by Tony Bennett on 07.04.20 12:08

@crusader wrote:I fully believe the McCanns said the last photo was taken on the Thursday was to deceive.

Yes it does fit with the thinking that it was to prove Madeleine was alive on Thursday. I have seen enough weather charts and evidence to prove that it could not have been taken on the Thursday but on the Sunday.

Just for the record I DO NOT believe the McCanns are telling the truth.

I  do however believe total strangers have no reason to lie.
Thank you for your reply @crusader and it has very much helped to clarify where we differ on a crucial issue.

You wrote: "I  do however believe total strangers have no reason to lie".


In general terms, you and I are in full agreement on that point, save to say that even a complete stranger can be bribed or offered an inducement to lie or even threaten to lie.

Where, with great respect, we differ is that I can NOT agree with you that either Pamela Fenn or Marin Smith were 'complete strangers.

Both knew Robert Murat, and I would say knew him well.


In the case of Pamela Fenn, she and Murat's mother, Jennifer Murat, served on the local ex-pats Residents Committee, probably for many years. It is inconceivable that she did not know Robert Murat personally and had probably met him many times.

In the case of Martin Smith, he and his family are on the record as saying that he and Murat had 'met several times' over a period of at least 'two years'. I believe Martin Smith made evasive statements about how well he knew Murat; he even successfully sued six Irish newspapers over an article connecting him to Murat. One of the papers, I believe the Irish Independent, removed an article about him and apologised.

Why does it matter that Pamela Fenn and Martin Smith probably knew Robert Murat well?

Because Robert Murat...

* was called over to Portugal on Monday 30 April

* he lied comprehensively to the Portuguese Police about his very suspicious movements on Monday 1 May, Tuesday 2 May and Wednesday 3 May

* interfered with the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance, so much so that Inspector Varanda wrote an urgent note to Goncalo Amaral on 10 May detailing his unprofessional conduct as a translator and how he was caught trying to sneak a look at confidential police reports. He was sacked as an interpreter as a result.

Also his mother Jennifer Murat - friend of Pamela Fenn - established a completely unauthorised stall in the town, trying to get information from people about Madeleine's disappearance. 

It is my case - set out in detail on this forum - that Robert Murat, in some way that we do not yet know - is connected to Madeleine's disappearance.

If that view is correct, then it really matters that Pamela Fenn, her niece Carole Tramner and Martin Smith were well known to Robert Murat.

They were not 'complete strangers'

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Tony Bennett on 07.04.20 12:38

@Verdi wrote:
Tony wrote:On the short hairdresser film, I think it exists and I think it would be helpful if we could view it.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16808-the-tale-of-pamela-fenn-a-crying-game#415833 

Thank you for finding this @Verdi.


To save members and guests the trouble of viewing this 1hr 5min-long documentary, the clip with the interview of the reporter at the hairdressers can be found between 27 min 40 secs and 28 mins 30 secs.


In summary, a man with a camera is filmed walking towards the hairdressers.

He enters the hairdressers. He films customers, notably a youngish man with black hair who is in the foreground. The hairdressser is filmed. The premises are filmed. Other customers are having their hair done. 

Then the lady hairdresser speaks and says (not exact words but very similar):

"There was a baby crying on the Tuesday.

"There's a lady come in here to have her hair done. She told us that she'd heard a girl crying on the Tuesday night.

"The group were out at Chaplins that night. On the Tuesday, she heard the child at ten o'clock..."

Observations:

Is it not completely obvious that this was a total set-up, arranged with the prior co-operation of Pamela Fenn's hairdresser?

How else can a young man with a camera suddenly barge in, film customers, film the premises, film the hairdresser and then get the hairdresser to talk about Madeleine?

And not just about Madeleine, but specifically about the alleged crying incident?

Think about this.

The Last Photo 'proves' Madeleine was alive at Thursday lunchtime.

David Payne's visit to see Kate McCann in G5A at 6.30pm 'proves' Madeleine was alive then.

Catriona Baker's evidence about the boating trip and the high-tea 'proves' that Madeleine was alive that day and right up to about 5.45pm

Pamela Fenn's evidence about the 'crying incident' 'proves' that Madeleine was alive on the Tuesday night

Martin Smith's evidence 'proves' that it was Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine towards the beach at about 10pm on Thursday 3 May. 

Somebody please help me here.


Am I the only one left on the forum who can see a distinct pattern in this so-called 'evidence'?   

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi on 07.04.20 12:43

To simplify matters as regards Pamela Fenn and the alleged crying incident,  Pamela Fenn lived in an apartment above the holiday accommodation occupied by the McCann family, apartment 5a.

Pamela Fenn was in residence at the time of the McCann holiday, she must have been at home on the night of Thursday 3rd May because she was apparently seen and heard on her balcony above.

The Tale of Pamela Fenn:  A Crying Game Fenn10

Considering Pamela Fenn's location, there can be no reasonable doubt she was informally interviewed during the PJ's door to door process - routine policing, between Friday 4th May and Saturday 5th May 2007 (I venture to suggest Friday 4th to be the most likely considering her location)..

The Tale of Pamela Fenn:  A Crying Game Scree532

Pamela Fenn claimed she heard a child crying in, what she considered to be distressed manner, for about 90 minutes - so concerned was she, the incident prompted a phone call to her friend.  It can be reasonably concluded that Pamela Fenn thought the incident to be of some significance at the time.

Why then did she not mention it to the police when they called at her apartment?  A missing three year old child, distressed continuous crying for 90 minutes only hours/days beforehand - yet no mention to the police?

Sounds extraordinary when you simplify doesn't it?

Please don't anyone suggest she may have mentioned it to the police on 4/5th May.  Such potentially important evidence would have been recorded in the PJ investigation files, even if not the initial informal meeting at Pamela Fenn's door, she would have been re-interviewed by the PJ sooner rather than later.

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Post by crusader on 07.04.20 14:22

I just watched the video of the hairdressers, and I must say, it cannot be coincidence that at the precise moment the man filming arrived, the hairdresser was telling the client of the crying incident and the McCann's being at Chaplins on Tuesday night. thinking
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Post by Tony Bennett on 07.04.20 17:04

Thank you @Verdi and @crusader for your two posts above  thumbsup

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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