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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 4:33

Nora Quoirin’s family are entitled to second post-mortem if they desire one, says Malaysian minister

By John Murphy 19/08/2019


Should Nora Quoirin’s family desire a second post-mortem they are entitled to order one, according to a senior Malaysian cabinet minister.
Speaking to Extra.ie, a child protection expert who has been advising the family of Nora Quoirin recently recommended that they seek an independent autopsy once her remains return home.
Jim Gamble, a former RUC and PSNI officer, said he wouldn’t rule out ‘criminal’ or ‘malicious’ involvement in the 15-year-old’s death.

‘I would recommend an independent autopsy, yes,’ he said.
Mr Gamble said that although the preliminary post-mortem results brought ‘some clarity’, questions still remain.

‘I think the circumstances throw up a number of questions that at some stage will need to be answered,’ he said.
‘I don’t think they necessarily close off the parents’ view or concern that she may have been taken.’

It remains to be seen whether the grieving Quoirin family will take Mr Gamble’s advice. However, in the meantime, a Malaysian minister has stated that they are entitled to a second post-mortem if that is what they desire.
An initial examination determined that Nora died from gastrointestinal bleeding brought about by stress and starvation.
Dr Lee Boon Chye said that he had full confidence in the initial post-mortem but said that Nora’s family are more than entitled to a second opinion.

‘It is their right. We are confident in the professionalism of our pathologists. Our confidence is not shaken,’ he said speaking to the ‘Malaysian Star’ yesterday.
While Malaysian authorities continue to insist that there was no foul play involved in Nora’s death, her family have insisted that something is amiss as Nora did not have the physical or mental capacity to wander off on her own.

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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 13:52

[size=41]SEARCH FOR FORENSICS IN NORA QUOIRIN CASE ENDED BY MALAYSIAN POLICE[/size]

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By
 Graham McGrath
 -

20/08/2019
The search for forensic evidence in the Nora Quoirin case has been ended by Malaysian Police.
Officers investigating the disappearance and death of Nora, 15, had been carrying out a missing persons investigation alongside a criminal investigation.
Police have now stood down any search for forensics in relation to Nora’s disappearance and her subsequent death. Police chief deputy commander Datuk Mohamad Mat Yusop told the Malaysian Star: ‘We have moved out.
‘French and Irish investigators who had been working with Malaysian police have also left the area.’
Police have confirmed that a review of how the search was conducted will be carried out following the conclusion of all other investigations. 
A post mortem  has since revealed that an internal haemorrhage caused by stress and starvation contributed to Nora’s death.In the aftermath of Nora’s death, her family have since addressed comments made by family members.
The Lucie Blackman Trust said in a statement: ‘They [Nora’s parents] wish it to be made absolutely clear that the only comments and statements relating to the disappearance, death, investigation and any other matters that are actually from the family are those released via Matthew Searle of the Lucie Blackman Trust. 

‘Any other comments and views are those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the views of the immediate family or an accurate portrayal of the facts.
‘Nora’s family are concerned that continued reporting of comments such as those recently reported are unhelpful and may hinder any investigations, as well as causing confusion and distress for them.’

Snipped from  Extra.ie by Graham McGrath 20/08/19
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Post by Liz Eagles Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 14:00

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Having been born in Belfast, Maebh Agnew Quoirin is perfectly entitled to identify as Irish and to claim Irish citizenship and an Irish passport. There is nothing at all noteworthy in this. In turn, any of her children are entitled to claim an Irish passport through their mother.
The Malaysian police are no more stupid or blundering than the Portuguese police were in the McCann case. They have not seen any reason to question the findings of the P.M. or revise their theory of what happened in light of it. Nor have they, or any of the officials from abroad who were involved in the case, expressed any suspicions about involvement of the parents in Nora's tragic death.
The media has, from the get go, been determined to inflate specualtion this case and perpetuate reportage in order to sell papers.  They appear to be beside themselves in their efforts to spin this story through rumour, innuendo, specualtion and exaggeration.
If this Anne Brennan is who I think she is, I would ignore anything she spouts. Let us just say that she has not practised for a long time and has a long history of mental health issues.


Nora was 15 years old, had severe mental and physical issues and did not apply for an Irish passport on her own behalf.

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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 14:04

UK Charity Denies Claim That Nora’s Family Involved in Her Death

A UK-based missing persons charity supporting the family of Nora Anne Quoirin have rejected an Irish lawyer’s allegation that the family were complicit in Nora Anne’s disappearance and death.

“There is no truth in this story,” said Matthew Searle, chief executive of the Lucie Blackman Trust, in a brief reply to FMT when asked for comments on its report yesterday that police were looking into the claims raised by lawyer Anne Brennan.

In a heated Facebook post yesterday morning, Brennan, who is a child activist, had accused Nora’s family of doing “everything in their power to subvert the course of justice”.

She alleged that the parents, Meabh and Sebastien Quorin, had “high-tailed” it out of the country upon receiving a guarantee that they would not be investigated for any involvement in the teenager’s disappearance and death.

Searle declined comment on Brennan’s claims nor would he state if legal action would be taken against Brennan.

Brennan had claimed that the family had “somehow convinced the Malaysian authorities to abandon their murder inquiry and release Nora’s body without producing the necessary forensic and toxicology reports that form part of every standard criminal death investigation”.

Calling the entire matter a “cover-up”, Brennan alleged the Quoirins had given no account of their movements in the hours before they reported their daughter missing.

Brennan also pointed out that the police had confirmed there was no evidence of a “third party” entering the family’s villa on the night Nora Anne was reported missing.

   “There was no evidence of a struggle. No fingerprints, footprints, or screams. Nobody heard anything.

   “Malaysian police said that Nora did not go alone. A third party was involved, and the third party was someone known to Nora.”

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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 14:06

@ Aquila. Any Irish parent can claim an Irish passport for their children. Lots of U.K born children of Irish descent have Irish passports. It's very common. I have several members of my extended family who were born in the U.K and have Irish passports and so do their children who were also born in the U.K.
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Post by Liz Eagles Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 14:18

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:@ Aquila. Any Irish parent can claim an Irish passport for their children. Lots of U.K born children of Irish descent have Irish passports. It's very common. I have several members of my extended family who were born in the U.K and have Irish passports and so do their children who were also born in the U.K.

I'm interested Phoebe, that's all. Is there dual nationality? Are you a UK citizen if you travel on an Irish passport?
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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 14:39

aquila wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:@ Aquila. Any Irish parent can claim an Irish passport for their children. Lots of U.K born children of Irish descent have Irish passports. It's very common. I have several members of my extended family who were born in the U.K and have Irish passports and so do their children who were also born in the U.K.

I'm interested Phoebe, that's all. Is there dual nationality? Are you a UK citizen if you travel on an Irish passport?
I am a British subject and have a British passport but can claim an Irish passport too, A) due to having been resident here for a certain period and B) automatically through my ancestry if I wished to use that route. I have one cousin, born and raised in London to an Irish father, who has always had an Irish passport (don't know if she had  a U.K. one too). She married quite young, a lovely Italian chap (a policeman) and has lived in Italy for the majority of her life. Her 3 Italian (born and raised) children, now adults, have had Irish passports since they were born!! I think it's a kind of sentimental thing for some people. I also have other family members in the U.K. who are of Irish descent, quite a few immediately claimed irish passports for their children. Others weren't fussed, but their children have the right to claim one for themselves when they reach the age to claim passport in their own right.
Under Irish law, if you have one grandparent who is Irish born (north or south) then you can claim an Irish passport through the "grandparent rule". It's why so many of the Irish internationl soccor team are born and bred in the U.K. There was a standing joke here at one time the the Football Association Of Ireland (known as the F.A.I.) really stood for "Find Any Irishman - as long as he can play!
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Post by Liz Eagles Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 15:16

It doesn't explain the law on travelling on a non-British passport.

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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 15:24

NORA DEATH RIDDLE

Nora Quoirin’s family may finally get answers to ‘dark questions’ about teen’s death as Malaysia confirms they can demand a second postmortem


  • Jon Lockett 20 Aug 2019, 14:01

THE authorities in Malaysia say they WILL carry out a second postmortem on the body of teenager Nora Quoirin - if her parents demand one.

The news comes after the teen's family revealed there are still “dark” unanswered questions about how she died and maintained she could have been abducted.

However, Malaysia Deputy Health minister insisted his country has nothing to hide and is confident of the pathologist's handling of the case.
When asked if a second postmortem was an option for the family, Dr Lee Boon Chye said: "It is their right.
"We are confident in the professionalism of our pathologists. Our confidence is not shaken.”
He spoke out amid reports Nora’s parents, Maebh, 45, and Sebastian, 47, want to make sure the local coroner did not miss any crucial evidence.
It has since been claimed the parents requested for the autopsy to be conducted in either Britain or France.
Nora's granddad Sylvain Quoirin, 67, has already claimed that “someone tampered with her body" after she went missing on holiday.
He believes she was dumped at the waterfall where she was found by sinister forces in an attempt to “get rid of her” and has called for a fresh criminal investigation.

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Nora Quoirin's body was found nine days after she went missing from a holiday resort in MalaysiaCredit: Reuters
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Sylvain Quoirin says the family have unanswered questions about Nora Quoirin's deathCredit: Facebook
The authorities  have ruled out any foul play but her family have consistently said they can't believe she walked out on her own and say they cannot grieve until all questions are answered as possible flaws in the investigation emerged.
Charles Morel, the family’s lawyer said that “criminal involvement” could not be ruled out, adding that it was highly unlikely Nora left the family’s lodge by herself.
Child protection expert Jim Gamble who has been advising the family of Nora Quoirin told Sky News that there are still questions to be answered about the disappearance and death of the 15-year-old in Malaysia.
Retired businessman Sylvain told The Irish Times: "She wasn’t there yet [during previous searches]. Someone put her there.
“Can you imagine her walking 2.5km, naked and barefoot, over rocks, in the middle of the night? For me, that’s absurd."

DARK AREAS

He added: “Do you think she would go walking around at night? For me, it is obviously a criminal case, by default. She could not have wandered.”
Mr Quoirin insisted there were “dark areas that need to be cleared up for the family to be able to grieve in peace”.
Mr Morel said: The family is just concerned to find out the truth. There are many unanswered questions and we cannot exclude criminal involvement.
“Nora was found where people have already searched. If she was alive for that long, then it is possible that she met somebody.
“We cannot exclude anything at this stage. In view of the importance of Malaysia’s image for tourism, the authorities may tend to favour the theory of a disappearance over the criminal hypothesis.”
Nora - who has learning difficulties - may have been wandering around the jungle alone, frightened and starving for a week after she vanished on August 4.

The desperate search for Nora

August 4: Nora is reported missing after her father discovers she is not in her bedroom at the Dusun Resort at around 8am on Sunday.
The window was also open in the room that Nora had been sharing with her two siblings.
August 5: Missing persons charity The Lucie Blackman Trust says that Malaysian police are treating Nora's disappearance as a potential abduction, but officers deny there is any foul play involved.
August 6: Nora's family say they believe her to have been abducted.
"She never goes anywhere by herself. We have no reason to believe she wandered off and is lost."
August 7: Police say they are analysing unidentified fingerprints an open window and in a downstairs hall  found in the family's hotel suite.
August 9: Police investigate whether footprints found in the forest where Nora went missing belong to the missing teen. Her family say she wouldn't have wandered off on her own.
August 10: Nora's family thank the search teams involved since the teenager's disappearance.
August 11: Hundreds of rescuers still involved in the search operation a week after she disappeared.
August 12: A visibly emotional Mrs Quoirin makes a further appeal for her daughter to return home.
"Nora is our first child. She has been vulnerable since the day she was born.
"She is so precious to us and our hearts are breaking. We are appealing to anyone who has information about Nora to help us find her."
A reward of £10,000 - donated by an anonymous Belfast business - is made available for information leading to Nora's safe return.
August 13: A body is found and police said Nora's parents confirmed it was her .
August 14: An initial post-mortem examination inconclusive
August 15: Post-mortem finds that Nora died of intestinal bleeding after a stomach ulcer burst, probably caused by hunger and stress.
Nora’s uncle Pacome Quoirin also voiced his concern that any criminal element had been ruled out on Thursday.
“How could she have survived for five days in the jungle without food or water, if you believe the theory that she left the hotel on her own? We remain very dubious," said the graphic designer.
“The findings that were announced in no way discredit a criminal act. She could have been kidnapped and fed at the beginning. There is insufficient evidence to jump to definitive conclusions.”
The family's lawyer Charles Morel said Nora's parents were treating the autopsy results with caution and were not ruling out any criminal aspect to her disappearance.
He told Irish broadcaster RTE: "We have to be very cautious about the interpretation of the first result of the autopsy.
"The risk is that if you exclude the criminal hypothesis, it's too early to say that."
Nora was "very shy, dependent on her mother and its not in her temperament to go out in the night after a long trip in a place she doesn't know, in the jungle", said Morel.

'FAMILY WANTS THE TRUTH'

He added: "And even the place where she was found, two kilometres from the resort, very strange that she could go there by herself alone so we cannot exclude the criminal hypothesis.
"The family still finds it difficult to understand that she would have gone into the jungle on her own."
Mr Morel said the family are waiting for the results of DNA analysis, which they hope to have quickly.
"I know the family is very traumatised. They loved their daughter, she was an angel," he said.
"But they are now concerned about the truth because they owe that to Nora, what happened, how did she die."
The family's lawyer also stated that Malaysian authorities "may tend to favour the theory of a disappearance over the criminal hypothesis" in lieu of Malaysia's good image for tourism.
The post-mortem ruled the teen had died from internal bleeding in her intestine after a stomach ulcer burst, following a period of prolonged hunger and stress.
Both the Irish and French police who observed the postmortem were satisfied with the work of the local pathology team led by Siew Sheue Feng from the Kuala Lumpur Hospital.

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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 15:50

According to the statement released on behalf of Nora's parents by the LB Trust, Sylvain Quoirin, Charles Morel and Jim Gamble are giving their OWN views -

"Any other comments and views are those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the views of the immediate family or an accurate portrayal of the facts."




Despite being asked to desist from doing so and despite a statement that the family find it unwelcome, unhelpful and distressing it continues, although these seem to be regurgitated from several days ago. Ah well, the tabloids have to drum up circulation somehow.
I'm not surprised at the self-promoting Gamble and Morel but for the father to ignore the wishes of his son and daughter-in-law. Oh dear, I take it family relations are not completely harmonious.
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Post by Liz Eagles Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 16:11

What in UK law constitutes a British citizen?

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Post by Verdi Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 16:21

The case of Nora Quoirin's disappearance and death is, without doubt, a mystery.

Any loving committed parent wouldn't readily accept their precious child had disappeared from the holiday accommodation sometime between going to bed and 8:30'ish the following morning and found ten days later - dead!

Knowing their child and her capabilities, as they profess, they would instinctively be looking for answers.  Those answers won't be found in England, in Ireland, in France or any other country outside of Malaysia.

What loving caring responsible parent would just accept their severly disabled fifteen daughter had been wandering about a jungle, all but naked, for days and then found dead?

As it stands, they've had the body repatriated in preparation for a funeral.

Case closed !

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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 16:26

It'll be interesting to see if they choose burial or cremation.

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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 16:35

nora tragedy

Nora Quoirin’s family ‘haven’t been told’ if body was ‘found 600 metres’ from Malaysian holiday home where she vanished from

Harry Manning

  • Updated: 20 Aug 2019, 16:14

THE family of tragic Irish teenager Nora Quoirin have not been told if her body was found 600 metres away from their holiday home.
Reports emerged today that the 15-year-old's remains were found substantially closer to the Dusun eco-resort than the 2 kilometres initially believed.

However, the Quoirins are unaware if this is the case and still believe Nora was located 2km from the house.
A source close to the family said: "We have only been given the 2km information and this hasn't changed. So I assume the information is incorrect."
Nora's naked body was recovered near a waterfall last Tuesday, August 13, nine days after she was reported missing.
An autopsy found that the teenager died of "intestinal bleeding" likely caused by hunger and stress.
Malaysian police believe her body was found three days after she died and said there was no evidence of foul play.

FAMILY'S 'RIGHT' TO SECOND AUTOPSY

Last week, the family's French lawyer Charles Morel said they were "refusing to rule out a criminal element" to Nora's death.
He urged the media to be "very cautious about the interpretation of the first result of the autopsy."
He added: “The risk is that if you exclude the criminal hypothesis, it’s too early to say that.
"We don’t want the media to interpret the first result of the autopsy excluding the criminal hypothesis."
Yesterday, Malaysian Deputy Health Minister Dr Lee Boon Chye said it was the family's "right" to request a second autopsy.
He told the Malaysian Star: “It is their right. We are confident in the professionalism of our pathologists. Our confidence is not shaken.”

EVIDENCE SEARCH SCALED BACK

Meanwhile, local police said they have “moved out” of the area where the tragic teen’s remains were found.
State police chief Dept Comm Datuk Mohamad Mat Yusop said police probing Nora’s death would return to the area if need be but “as such, we have moved out.”
He also confirmed French and Irish investigators who had been working with Malaysian authorities have “also left the area”.
On Saturday, the Quoirin family claimed the teen’s remains from the Tuanku Ja’afar Hospital in Seremban as they called for an end to “distressing” comments.
In a statement, they said: “Nora’s family are concerned that continued reporting of comments such as those recently reported are unhelpful and may hinder any investigations, as well as causing confusion and distress for them.
“The Lucie Blackman Trust is arranging repatriation of Nora’s body and no further information concerning this, including dates or destinations, will be released at this point.”
Emergency services had launched a massive search through the jungle after Nora went missing – with hikers finding her body in a spot already examined.

Nora’s parents visited the site where her body was found and later identified her body at the Tuanku Jaafar Hospital.
The teenager was discovered missing from her bedroom at the Dusun eco-resort in southern Negeri Sembilan state on the morning of Sunday August 4, with the window left open.
She was on a family holiday with her parents as well as sister Innes, 12 and brother Maurice, eight, when she vanished.

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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 16:52

I've seen no reason to doubt that Nora was a much loved child. Nor have I seen her parents state categorically that she could not possibly have gone outside the chalet alone and wandered off. I have read that they had serious doubts that she would have done so, given her timidity, her physical limitations and the fact that she hadn't done anything like this before but, there is a first time for everything.
They seem to accept the P.M. results of death from natural causes, harrowing as that may be. Nothing they can do now can undo what has happened.
If Nora's parents had had some dastardly plan for her to die on this holiday they could have achieved it without drawing any negative specualtion on themselves! If they had said from the very beginning "Our daughter has gone out and got lost, she is intellectually disabled and will find it hard to navigate her way to safety" then no one would be regarding this as any different to the sad fate a young child who slips away from parents or grandparents and ends up being found drowned or dead from accident or exposure.
The bruhaha began when Nora's parents suggested that she had been taken by someone. I can understand why they did this. Who wants to face the idea that they themselves might be responsible due to not foreseeing the danger and taking adequate precautions?
They would also have known that after the McCann debacle and its fallout, the best way of ensuring an all out and rapid repsonse from local authorities is to yell "Abduction" very loudly. After the scalding the Portuguese received no other country would want to be accused of dragging its heels when it is alleged that a tourist's child has been abducted from a holiday home!
I can't really blame them. If my child was missing and I thought it would ensure an urgent and comprehensive response I would say anything to increase the chance of saving or recovering them.
I immagine the police will come under pressure to explain why her remains may have been missed, but search teams are human too. It has happened in much less challenging terrain, Gaia Pope in Dorset last year being just one example that springs to mind.
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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 17:35

The issue for me isn't whether she was loved, or if she got out by herself, but rather how she got to the waterfall that she was so excited to see, dressed in her underwear, barefeet, no food, no clean water, no torch, no map, surrounded by all sorts of insects and snakes etc., and only succumbing to scratches...then, in agony from a bleeding ulcer, starving, and under considerable stress, she lay flat out with her hands behind the head rather than curled up in a fetal position clutching her stomach.

But it's not how she was found, it's how she got there. I simply cannot believe she got there by herself.

Did you read my post here of the route she would have needed to take, and how it says 'be prepared for a challenge' and how with her so-called mobility issues she would have to walk across slippery logs in barefeet that required balance and climb up steep slopes etc?:

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Either she had mobility issues, or she was an expert trekker, even better than the ones in that ^^^ post.

I would demand a second opinion. I would demand a criminal investigation.

Unless I had something to hide. And, if I did, I would accept the findings of the PM, take my daughter's body home and cremate her PDQ.

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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 18:08

Taken from this site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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The hike to the waterfall with a local guide

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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 19:56

@ Jill Havern. I presume poor Nora made that unlikely trek in the same way as the two year old Emmet Trapp in Arizona managed to trek for miles in just bare feet, a tee shirt and a nappy, across rough ground in the blazing heat of the desert. According to the searchers who tracked and found him he "Went over hills, through thickets and washes". Many extremely frail demetia sufferers have absconded from care homes in recent years and have managed to walk for mlles, often cross country!
 Who knows whether she walked, crawled or was washed along part of the way by the current of rivers and streams.
The main thing is the local police do not suspect parental involvement in her disappearance. Nor do the outside police brought in to assist. They are the people with full access to the relevant information. They are the people who have questioned the family and observed them over days. They are the people who have the necesssary information about the state of her body and whether it is consistent with their theory. They are trained investigators. I see no reason to doubt their competence just as I've never doubted the competence of the Portuguese police who felt that the parents WERE involved in Madeleine's disappearance.
The only information (often misinformation) the publlic has re. this disappearance is the unreliable sensationalism in the press and opinions given by mouths for hire like Gamble. If those tasked with investigating are satisfied I'd be inclined to trust them.
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Post by Jill Havern Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 20:10

That's me told Phoebe. yes

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Post by Phoebe Tue 20 Aug 2019 - 20:34

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:That's me told Phoebe. yes
Oh heavens Jill, I don't mean it to sound like that and apologies if it does. No lecture or rebuke intended, soz  I'm just frustrated by the whole thing. I' ve already had the nasty experience of having people lump all those who doubt the McCann story in along with the "nutters" (I'm qouting) who insist Nora's parents bumped her off deliberately as they got tired of her special needs. I've just read another piece of nonsense in the Sun - an "Exclusive" qouting  "a source close to the family". The headline screams that Nora's parents haven't been made aware whether Nora's body was found closer to the resort ie 600 metres away. Yet the same article later says that the parents were brought to the scene of where she was found. This "journalist" must believe that either the parents are stupid and can't guage the distance or the police are lying to them. It irks me when the local police put in a huge search effort as they did in this and Madeleine's case, yet are accused of being incompetent, liars, corrupt, looking for the easy way out or protecting their country's tourist trade. Echoes of the appalling slurs made against the P.J. for me.
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Post by Verdi Wed 21 Aug 2019 - 0:56

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I' ve already had the nasty experience of having people lump all those who doubt the McCann story in along with the "nutters" (I'm qouting) who insist Nora's parents bumped her off deliberately as they got tired of her special needs. I've just read another piece of nonsense in the Sun - an "Exclusive" qouting  "a source close to the family".
If you wish to avoid nasty experiences, my advice to you - avoid social media.

As for the other media, the mainstream variety, either you believe or you don't.  You can't, or shouldn't, pick and choose just to suit your opinion.

Aside from official video footage as regards this case, which I believe I've uploaded on this thread, the only source of information available for public consumption is by way of mainstream media.

All information comes by way of a press agency pool and individual press organs apply their own interpretation - just like the gullible public.

To be or not to be - that is the question.

Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah but ....

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Post by Verdi Wed 21 Aug 2019 - 1:02

It is folly to suggest a fifteen year old with physical and mental disability, let alone a two year old in a nappy, could traverse over rough terrain unscathed.

What nonsense!

Don't bother about a jungle, next time your near the Forest of Dean, suck it and see.

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Post by Verdi Wed 21 Aug 2019 - 1:11

Don't insult our intelligence by suggesting we are sucked in by the likes of Jim Gamble and his ilk.

He and his type are superfluous to requirements.

Media reportage across the board, be it England or Ireland or Wales or Scotland or Kathwomando, are all guilty of the same malfaisance.

Don't ever think otherwise.

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Post by Phoebe Wed 21 Aug 2019 - 1:25

@ Verdi. Ah, I take it you believe the Malaysian police must be  gullible, mistaken or untruthful since they have not revised their belief that Nora wandered off herself?
 I see no earthly reason to doubt or disbelieve the Arizona Police or the dog handlers who tracked poor young Emmett Trap. Obviously the bloodhounds got it all wrong, although they did lead the searchers directly to his body.
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Post by ufercoffy Wed 21 Aug 2019 - 5:30

I can see how people following the McCann case came to be divided into the three 'pro', 'anti' and 'on the fence' camps many years ago.

The 'pro's' believe the parents.
The 'anti's' don't believe the parents.
The 'on the fence' don't know what/who to believe.

It's still like that to this day.

I don't think anyone here, from what I've read, thinks the Malaysian police are 'bungling' and 'incompetent'. My take on it, is that some people just don't believe the parents.

We seem to have arrived at that point in this case with people arguing the toss about whether the parents are to be believed, whether there was an abductor, or if the police were 'bungling' and 'incompetent'.

Didn't the McCann case come to a dead end because they refused to co-operate and went home?

Isn't that what's going to happen here? The Quoirin's will take Nora's body home and have a funeral and that'll be the end of it but with many unanswered questions hanging, just as in the McCann case.

The only difference being that in the Quoirin case there has been a body to examine.

Pheobe appears to be in the 'pro' camp here and accepts the authorities findings aswell as supporting the parents, whilst many others are in the 'on the fence' camp because we question the case because nothing adds up, just as in the Maddie case. It's not that we are 'anti' the parents, it's because we're in the 'on the fence' camp (at the moment), not knowing what to believe.

Even Nora's wider family have said there are "unanswered questions". That's absolutely correct!

It doesn't mean the Malaysian police must be gullible, mistaken or untruthful, just as we don't think that about the PJ. It's because, for many of us, we think the Malaysian police, like the PJ, conducted their investigation based on what was presented to them. Without Maddie's body the PJ were unable to confirm what exactly happened to her (drugs, sexual abuse, murder etc) and without her body, they never will. Stalemate.

With Nora's body they confirmed what they found - but that still doesn't explain EXACTLY how Nora got to that place relatively 'outwardly' unscathed except for some scratches, having walked in the jungle for a week.

From what we've been told by the parents themselves, Nora wasn't capable of going out by herself, they believe she was abducted, yet there is no evidence of an abduction so why do you believe the parents Phoebe? Why are you insinuating  that just because a toddler walked around in Arizona or some dementia patients go walkabout then Nora could have done the same, when Nora's parents have said she woudn't? They would know their child better than any of us, or even better than the Malaysian police.

Surely that should mean even you question the parents?

Many people on social media and on cmomm have voiced their concerns about not believing the parents. Their story doesn't add up. If Nora did get to the waterfall by herself then clearly she was able-bodied enough to do so, which flies in the face of the parents account of how Nora wasn't able to do this or that for herself, that she wasn't capable of wandering etc.

You can't have it both ways. Only one version can be the truth. Either Nora was capable, or she wasn't. And if she wasn't, then someone must have put her there. Either an abductor, for which there is no evidence, or someone else who knew her and she trusted enough to go with. As the family were there by themselves on holiday thousands of miles from home, who could that 'someone' be?

You accuse people of not believing the Malaysian police, but I think it's more a case of not believing the parents. Because the case doesn't add up surely that means EITHER the Malaysian police are correct, OR the parents are correct, but you seem to believe both sides. Surely both sides cannot be correct because both versions are at odds with each other?

Don't many people believe the McCanns are being protected by the Government because of their social standing, despite believing they had something to do with Maddie's disappearance? Why is that not possible for us to think the same with the Quoirin's then?

That's how I see it anyway.

I hope there will be an Inquest where more details will be released. Somehow I feel this case will remain unsolved like Maddie's and JonBenet's (where the parents are also not believed) and will be the subject of theories for many years to come.

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