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WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME? - Page 6 Mm11

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WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME?

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WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME? - Page 6 Empty Re: WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME?

Post by Phoebe on 23.03.19 21:59

@Ladyinred wrote:I've googled "The Art and Science of Baby Holding", the article that AS claims the group read and which inspired the project.  Nothing found.

Would the group be adults now?
Salk (1960) was the first to suggest that humans exhibit a left cradling bias for infants and the finding has been replicated in various human cultures (Damerose and Vauclair, 2002). Salk (1973) reported no association between maternal hand preference and maternal cradling bias, which may have led some to believe that the asymmetries in maternal cradling bias are due to biases related to expression of specific emotional states (Sieratzki and Woll, 1996). Whether this is the case or not is a matter of debate beyond the scope of this paper (Bencie and Sieratzki, 2002Turnbull et al., 2001).
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Post by plebgate on 23.03.19 22:02

Nowhere in Tony's post has Tony said any of what you accuse him of Phoebe.
The newpaper printed it and once it's in the public domain it can be used for discussion purposes is my understanding.  Tony has NOT made any accusations in his post.
How can you say the childrens privacy has been treated in a cavalier manner when it was in the public domain?
No wonder the ninja whinger was licking his lips at what imo is a rather hysterical reaction to Tony's post.

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Post by Ladyinred on 23.03.19 22:06

@Phoebe wrote:
@Ladyinred wrote:I've googled "The Art and Science of Baby Holding", the article that AS claims the group read and which inspired the project.  Nothing found.

Would the group be adults now?
Salk (1960) was the first to suggest that humans exhibit a left cradling bias for infants and the finding has been replicated in various human cultures (Damerose and Vauclair, 2002). Salk (1973) reported no association between maternal hand preference and maternal cradling bias, which may have led some to believe that the asymmetries in maternal cradling bias are due to biases related to expression of specific emotional states (Sieratzki and Woll, 1996). Whether this is the case or not is a matter of debate beyond the scope of this paper (Bencie and Sieratzki, 2002Turnbull et al., 2001).
Thank you. That was quick.  Did you have it prepared?

Would a group of school children actually read these academic papers?
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Post by Guest on 23.03.19 22:08

@plebgate wrote:I don't smart Ninja, I am smart,  Smart enough to have clocked you when you were Hong Kong Phooey and Smart enough to know that you were drooling when you read Phoebe's last post.   

The Ninja Whinger has been exposed yet again.  celebrate
When people boast about how smart they are, they lack self-confidence, feel inadequate, or are seeking validation from others. Truly intelligent people don't brag about themselves. 
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Post by Phoebe on 23.03.19 22:09

Oh!! So it was "The Irish Independent" which chose to bold Aoife Smith's name several times and to then bold certain paragraphs and underline certain words lest the readers missed their import. Wow, I must pen a letter of complaint to them and tell them what they've started.!!!!!


Aoife Smith, Ruth McGuinness and Lisa Barry, in a project entitled 'Is There A Science Behind Baby-Holding?' explain their reasons for choosing this topic: 'We want to find out why some people hold babies and young children on the left side of their bodies and others hold the child on the right.'


@ lady in red,  nope I hold a degree in psychology, esay to know where to look. Just 2 clicks  :biggrin:and Yes, most certainly, the Young Scientist Of The Year Competition is serious stuff. Students would be expected to do their research and cite appropriately. It's quite an exclusive competition.


I stand by my point. those children agreed to be interviewed about their achievement in good faith. It was neither their nor the Newspaper's intention that it would be used in any way to cast doubt on the character of any of those involved.
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Post by plebgate on 23.03.19 22:17

So what Tony bolded a paragraph, that is not an accusation and your outburst was unwarranted IMO Phoebe.

The Ninja's response was even more incredible.   He certainly leapt in quick to make a daft point.

I alway thought Hong Kong Phooey jumped in to sort out villains, not an OAP who has risked everything (including jail time) for his true beliefs and questioning EVERYTHING.

Ninja asked why I do not debate any longer, is it any wonder when the standard of some posts are so very tedious and boring zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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Post by Ladyinred on 23.03.19 22:19

@Phoebe I expect they had help from their parents  big grin

No way would school children understand scientific papers written by researchers for their peers.
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Post by Phoebe on 23.03.19 22:24

I beg to differ Plebgate. There is a clear inference to be drawn from the underlined words. I believe one should be very careful about publicly claiming someone is a liar or has an underhand motive, especially when the accused is a child (at the time of being accused) and most especially in the absence of any PROOF. I believe it is also unwarranted to both besmirch the genuine work undertaken by school children and to imply some ulterior motive for their choice.

@Lady in Red You'd be surprised by the capabilities of bright children, and those selected to compete are mentored by a teacher.
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Post by Ladyinred on 23.03.19 22:30

@Phoebe I have bright children myself, so am aware, that's why I'm curious about the group reading academic papers.

Do you know the Smiths?
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Post by Guest on 23.03.19 22:34

@plebgate wrote:Snipped...

Ninja asked why I do not debate any longer, is it any wonder when the standard of my posts are so very tedious and boring zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Fixed that for you (no need for thanks)

So did you manage to identify all that apply to you:-
 lack self-confidence, feel inadequate, or are seeking validation from others. Truly intelligent people don't brag about themselves.

[mod]HKP, you have been asked time and time again to refrain from disrupting discussion with your worthless aggressive argumentative attitude.

Any more and you will be  banned

You can't say you haven't been given a fair chance.  The choice is yours.  [/mod]
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Post by Phoebe on 23.03.19 23:22

@Ladyinred wrote:@Phoebe I have bright children myself, so am aware, that's why I'm curious about the group reading academic papers.

Do you know the Smiths?
Living here in Ireland, all of my children have in their turn been involved in The Young Scientist competition. The percentage of those who take part out of the general school population is actually quite small as many students are daunted by the idea of the painstaking work required and, or, don't have a particular interest in area they wish to pursue. Some schools have a long tradition of encouraging students to participate and they are guided by teachers with the relevant background to assist them. The students must research and present their work and are then interviewed by the adjudicating panel to ensure they aren't just coughing up work done by someone else. A teacher can help by translating research into a more student friendly vocabulary.

No, I don't know the Smiths.
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Post by Verdi on 23.03.19 23:29

Back on topic please good people.

WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME? - Page 6 8c0de028-9948-498d-89b7-f05633327dd8

So, why did Gonçalo Amaral make that extraordinary comment about secretly arranging the return of Martin Smith to Portugal.  Why would it be secret?

The PJ investigation concluded that the Smith family sighting was inconsequential, that simple fact is recorded in the PJ files.

It would appear Operation Grange however thought otherwise.  They thought it important enough to include the Irish family in the production of two e-fits to appeal to the public - six years after the event.

So what exactly was the true purpose of the Crimewatch 2013 production, representing the Operation Grange quasi-legal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?

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Post by plebgate on 24.03.19 8:25

@Phoebe wrote:I beg to differ Plebgate. There is a clear inference to be drawn from the underlined words. I believe one should be very careful about publicly claiming someone is a liar or has an underhand motive, especially when the accused is a child (at the time of being accused) and most especially in the absence of any PROOF. I believe it is also unwarranted to both besmirch the genuine work undertaken by school children and to imply some ulterior motive for their choice.

@Lady in Red You'd be surprised by the capabilities of bright children, and those selected to compete are mentored by a teacher.
Last post about it.  Sorry Verdi but I have to point out to Phoebe that Tony did not post this whilst they were still children.  Indeed he states in his post that he was alerted to this a number of years ago but certainly did not post it then.

I do not see anywhere in Tony's post the word liar.

I think Tony has only stated that he believes it to be  a "coincidental" topic to choose.

Can't see why you reacted so strongly about it and I have to agree with Lady in Red, it does make one wonder whether you know the Smith family personally.

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Post by plebgate on 24.03.19 8:32

@Verdi wrote:Back on topic please good people.

WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME? - Page 6 8c0de028-9948-498d-89b7-f05633327dd8

So, why did Gonçalo Amaral make that extraordinary comment about secretly arranging the return of Martin Smith to Portugal.  Why would it be secret?

The PJ investigation concluded that the Smith family sighting was inconsequential, that simple fact is recorded in the PJ files.

It would appear Operation Grange however thought otherwise.  They thought it important enough to include the Irish family in the production of two e-fits to appeal to the public - six years after the event.

So what exactly was the true purpose of the Crimewatch 2013 production, representing the Operation Grange quasi-legal investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
I don't think we will ever know.   Confusion, confusion, confusion.

Maybe the letter the MMRG sent will get someone using their noodles and interview the people who reported Maddie missing and get them all back to Portugal for a reconstruction?

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Post by Guest on 24.03.19 8:48

HKP wrote:
@plebgate wrote:Snipped...

Ninja asked why I do not debate any longer, is it any wonder when the standard of my posts are so very tedious and boring zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Fixed that for you (no need for thanks)

So did you manage to identify all that apply to you:-
 lack self-confidence, feel inadequate, or are seeking validation from others. Truly intelligent people don't brag about themselves.

[mod]HKP, you have been asked time and time again to refrain from disrupting discussion with your worthless aggressive argumentative attitude.

Any more and you will be  banned

You can't say you haven't been given a fair chance.  The choice is yours.  [/mod]
Apologies again to the good members for going off topic however once again things need to be addressed. I was subject to name calling and attempted ridicule and I sunk to their very low level of integrity and reacted back. You cannot expect members not to react to cowardly hiding behind keyboard characters, however I will try harder in future, since it seems I get the blame.
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Post by Jill Havern on 24.03.19 9:09

@HKP You've been here now (for the second time) for almost 4 years and have posted 242 comments...none of which have contributed much to the mystery of Madeleine McCann, but most of which attack those who attempt to unravel the mystery, or to defend those who attack other members.

Once again another thread has been taken off topic and has been moved to a restricted section because of disruption.

Now, I realise you like to have the last word, but this is my forum and I'm going to have the last word.

Please observe the Moderator Warning if you don't want to be shown the door for the second time.
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Post by Guest on 24.03.19 9:14

The conclusion from the PJ final report was....
Further on this issue, the testimony of MARTIN SMITH was considered,
pages 1606 and following, reporting the sighting of an individual carrying a 
child, in one of the streets that lead to the beach. It was said that the child 
could be MADELEINE McCANN, although it was never peremptorily 
stated. Some time later, the witness alleged that, by its stance, the 
individual who carried the child could be GERALD McCANN, which was 
concluded when he saw him descending the stairs from an airplane, pages 
2871, 3991 and following and 4135 and following. It was established that 
at the time that was being mentioned, GERALD McCANN was sitting at 
the table, in the Tapas Restaurant.


So it concluded that it wasn't Gerry the Smith's saw.
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Post by Phoebe on 24.03.19 9:35

The bald fact of the matter is that Tony B. claims the Smith sighting was untrue and invented.   Ergo, everyone in that group is a liar, including the then twelve year old Aoife. No amount of acrobatic semantics can alter that equation.
 When posters shed doubt on the idea of a child lying then it is stated that children are often pressured by their parents to lie.  The inference is clear - Twelve year old Aoife Smith is a liar, probably at the behest of her father.
 It is also falsely stated that the P.J. (after G.A's removal) regarded the Smiths as "unreliable" - in other words they doubted they were truthful. The fact is this, is NOT so. The P.J. decided, (after Dr. Amaral was removed and the parents were safely back in the U.K. where government was protecting them) to drop their pursuit of the Smith evidence based on the fact that there were eye-witnesses who knew Gerry very well who placed him at the Tapas at the time of said sighting. It's as simple as that!

STILL no answer to the question of why the McCanns have not asked the Smiths (who've been allegedly "working for them" since at least 2013) to withdraw and amend their damaging claim that Gerry McCann was seen by them at the time of the kidnap carrying away a child who looked exactly like his own daughter - you know- the one HE claims was abducted. There are many, many people who base their belief of the McCanns involvement on this claim by the Smiths and the McCanns know that. Why have they not seen to it that the Smiths remedy this thorn in the side of their claims of innocence!!
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Post by worriedmum on 24.03.19 10:06

It's so far back in the thread that I can't remember but is it true that it was members of the Tapas Nine who said Gerry was at the table at this time? And that there are other witnesses, staff working in the restaurant, that disagree?
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Post by plebgate on 24.03.19 10:44

What does it matter to Mr & Mrs how many people base their beliefs on what the Smiths say?

As I said in  an earlier post, the Smiths will never be used as witnesses and what is said on debating sites can be dismissed as consipiracy theories.

Smiths do not say 100 percent that they saw Mr. and said they did not see the persons face.  So why should Mr & Mrs worry what they have to say?  I know I wouldn't.

Tony is entitled to his beliefs about the sightings and you are entitled to yours but I do not see anywhere where Tony has posted the word liar.

Final post on it as becoming very repetitive reading the same question and hysterical response against Tony if he dares to question the Smith sighting imo.

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Post by Phoebe on 24.03.19 13:45

@ plebgate. What does it matter to Mr & Mrs how many people base their beliefs on what the Smiths say?




 It obviously mattered enough to require both the BBC and Netflix to go to the bother of falsely claiming that the Smiths had changed their mind. That speaks volumes.
To accuse someone of telling an untruth is to accuse them of lying.

Still no answer to why the McCann did not ask the Smiths to clarify that they no longer believed Gerry was Smithman. No hysterics or wild imaginings. Just laying out the facts.
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Post by Tony Bennett on 24.03.19 16:18

FWIW   I just checked my emails for the first time today and discovered that this email was sent to me (by a lady living in the north of England) at 11.37am this morning:

QUOTE

Hi Tony, I am so incensed by a certain poster on the CMOMM forum, that I have logged out today and will be taking a break from it. Constructive debate is always welcome, but she appears intent on a character assasination and has today gone too far. It does make me wonder exactly what her agenda is and why she is so obsessed with the Smith sighting, to the point where all her posts are getting spiteful.

I can't send a private message to  a moderator or Jill, as I have not yet posted on the forum. Since my last emails to you I have followed all the research I can find and wholeheartedly agree with all your findings. I am so sorry that yet again you are being abused.

Very best wishes

[REDACTED]

UNQUOTE

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by plebgate on 24.03.19 17:10

Sorry to hear that person is taking a break Tony.   Let's hope it wont be for long and will join the site to show that many think highly of you and are concerned that you are taking so much stick still.

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Post by willowthewisp on 24.03.19 17:40

@plebgate wrote:Sorry to hear that person is taking a break Tony.   Let's hope it wont be for long and will join the site to show that many think highly of you and are concerned that you are taking so much stick still.
Doesn't this show how many people behind the "headlines", 12 yrs later (Netflix, 2019, Crime Watch 2013,DCI Andy Redwood,Totman,Creche Dad?) are able to manipulate situations,dispel, cast doubts on Blood, DNA/LCI samples, FSS Birmingham, now Sandra Felgueiras, Portugal PJ 15;19 Markers, nearly 80% match to Madeleine McCann on a pillow from Rothley!

Who confirmed this was Madeleine's pillow, Leicestershire Police,Gold Group?

Could it have been Amellies pillow,as above, both IVF Females and Sean, Son? 

insufficient evidence, yet UK Police state it would result in a conviction in UK, then the"Evidence contaminated", then destroyed, like someone doesn't want contaminated Blood,DNA/LCI retested!

 DCI Simon Foy Richard Bilton Video, Panorama,BBC,they where,were they where,classic Bull shit from a  UK Police Officer as proof!

Hundreds of millions of Pounds spent and still No evidence, even UK Police have never asked or questioned on how much evidence of DNA/LCI from three Children and Two Adults in One apartment,UK Ambassador stop Portugal PJ from examining children's worn clothes!

Then cast Blame on Portugal PJ, scapegoats,whilst UK Police present, Come on, lets be consistent?
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WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME? - Page 6 Empty Re: WHAT WAS IN THE MIND OF OPERATION GRANGE, WHEN THEY SET ABOUT PREPARING THE CRIMEWATCH PROGRAMME?

Post by coati mundi on 27.03.19 2:06

Verdi,


"Goodness me, I'm so sorry - I wasn't referring to you coati mundi!  I thought the suggestion that you don't get involved would have made that clear.

I'm sorry if you feel the need to stop posting because of a misunderstanding.  Perhaps you will reconsider?"


Thank you. I will continue posting then. I am an inveterate sceptic of the McCann narrative, to the annoyance of many of my friends. I don't think you have to be a conspiracy theorist to disbelieve the version of events we were given at first, and have been given since.


I used to work in criminal defence and have a good nose for what smells like lies and what sounds as  truth. I have to say that, given the problems with the McCanns' differing initial  accounts of what happened, I would probably have advised KMc not to answer questions that might have put her into further trouble. 

However, I have not made my mind up about exactly what happened, or precisely when it happened, and what it is she wouldn't tell them about it.

I am on your side, but still trying to figure it out.

There is one thing I am sure about, though, and that is that the abduction theory is a unicorn.

All IMHO. and hope you reply.

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