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Post by Guest on 11.03.19 8:05

Another good podcast by Mark, he has the balance right at the moment. From the clip of next week's cast the statement of there was no blood just a scent (for the dogs) is not correct, however waiting to see what's said
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Post by Doug D on 11.03.19 8:41

Dissapointed with third episode after the first two, but I'd better listen to it again.
 
Bit confusing in its layout.
 
Gave an overall feeling of support for the Smithman sightings, going back to Pat Brown a few times, whilst at the same time casting doubt on some of the nonsense in the statements and the dubious timeline.
 
Claimed he nearly interviewed one of the Oakley International ‘operatives’ who interviewed Smith, but he was put eventually put off by the Non Disclosure Agreement signed, as CR regularly reminded people of their obligations under the NDA’s and he had no wish to end up in court.
 
This was from The Telegraph (and probably others) back in October 2013, which he highlighted without attribution:
 
‘A report they (Oakley) produced was “hypercritical” of the McCanns and their friends and the authors were threatened with legal action if it were ever published, the paper reported.’
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10407664/Madeleine-McCann-critical-new-evidence-is-from-five-year-old-suppressed-report.html
 
Was he talking to Henry Exton, if so I’m surprised he even got as far as written two way correspondence.
 
Obviously can’t be Kevin Halligen or Colonel Kenneth Maurice Irish 111, as they are both (reportedly) dead.
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Post by Tony Bennett on 11.03.19 9:56

@Doug D wrote:Disappointed with third episode after the first two...
 
Gave an overall feeling of support for the Smithman sightings, going back to Pat Brown a few times...
@ DougD

Thank you very much for your report.

It would appear that Mark Saunokonoko's podcasts are turning out very much as I feared.

If indeed he is basically supporting the Smithman sighting as true, then at a stroke...

* He is supporting Operation Grange's view of the case

* He is supporting the McCanns' view of the case (inasmuch as they say the Smithman sighting is real and was the abductor), and

* He is denying the evidence that something serious happened to Madeleine on Sunday.

If he means to suggest that Smithman might really have been Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine, who had died just 3-4 hours earlier, it would mean that he has utterly rejected the views of CMOMM, Richard Hall, Dr Martin Roberts and of course Petermac on the case - and the views of so many on this forum.

Referring to his frequent going back to Pat Brown, it must be remembered that Pat Brown, just like Textusa, has resolutely stuck by the view that Madeleine died after 6pm Thursday, and refuses to consider all the evidence that points another way.

Moreover, Pat Brown has in a very superior way mocked the films of Richard Hall as 'conspiracy theory' and criticised those who oppose her views as very unhelpful.  

Upthread I gave some indications of criteria by which we could evaluate Saunokonoko's podcasts.

I will wait and see how he deals with the evidence of the Last Photo beng taken n Sunday, the fabricated evidence of Nuno Lourenco in an attempt to frame Wojchiech Krokowski, and the complete absence of credible, independent evidence that Madeleine was not seen after Sunday.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Guest on 11.03.19 10:10

So far Mark has stuck with the evidence, casting doubt where necessary, not gone along with some theory (tinpot or otherwise), that was to be expected. As is explained/debated, on other threads there is no real evidence of earlier death and more people on this very forum believe the Smith sighting (going by the polls). For me it's so far so good.
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Post by Jill Havern on 11.03.19 10:13

Hopefully there will be 10 podcasts, which means the final one will be broadcast on April 29th, the 12th anniversary of what a lot of us consider to be the day something happened to Madeleine.

I remain hopeful that over the course of the next few podcasts Mark may reveal another side to the story that is so far being told.

Give him time, he's not even half way through at the moment and he did say 'there are a lot of twists and turns'...and, to be fair, he can hardly avoid the issues he's been reporting on so far.
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Post by Tony Bennett on 11.03.19 10:33

HKP wrote:there is no real evidence of earlier death
So...Petermac, Lizzy Hideho, Dr Martin Roberts, Richard Hall, the CMOMM admin team and hundreds of active CMOMM members are all wrong...

...and Operation Grange and the McCanns and their advisers and backers are right in saying that the Smiths really saw someone at 10pm on Thursday 3 May...

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Guest on 11.03.19 10:47

@tony Bennett


Short answer is yes (to early death), you/they have a theory, there's a thread currently discussing this again...
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11921p525-was-madeleine-seen-after-sunday#397856


There are several good points made by posters which are worthy of consideration, which are a counter argument.


I never mentioned operation Grange I stated more members on CMOMM think the Smith's sighting is real etc. and that is a forum fact.


eta let's not get off topic, Mark has not mentioned when or even if a death has occured yet (other than a brief mention of this being a possibility)
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Post by Jill Havern on 11.03.19 11:18

I am mindful that @HiDeHo has been helping Mark with his research for this podcast.

From what I can gather she believes the Smith's saw someone, just that it wasn't Madeleine who might have been carried because she also believes Madeleine died before Thursday 3rd.

PeterMac has so far been interviewed (and his e-book googled thousands of times since) who also believes Madeleine died before the Thursday, most likely Sunday, and considers the Smith sighting a red herring.

With several more podcasts to go we don't know where it will lead at the moment if Mark's comment about 'twists and turns' is anything to go by.

It would have been good if Peter's views of the Smith sighting had been included the same as Pat's were...to give a balanced view.

At the moment we have two professionals - a senior former detective Superintendent and a Criminal Profiler with different opinions. Only one side was given - the one who sticks to the original investigation, whereas Peter has researched more extensively.
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Post by Dannz on 11.03.19 11:41

@Tony Bennett wrote:
HKP wrote:there is no real evidence of earlier death
So...Petermac, Lizzy Hideho, Dr Martin Roberts, Richard Hall, the CMOMM admin team ... are all wrong...

Yes, demonstrably so:


  • The claim that Madeleine could not have died on 3 May was unfounded and based on mistaken notions e.g. that the body must have lain for at least 90 minutes in order for Martin Grimes’ dog to have alerted.


  • There are errors in the claim that there is no credible sighting of Madeleine after Sunday - e.g. the claim that Ms Romao’s statement is inconsistent with crèche records.


  • There is a misreading of the PR Week article.


  • The Last Photo is not evidence of an earlier death. There are other more credible reasons that would explain this e.g. the McCanns wanted to show Madeleine was happy and outgoing, whereas all photos after Sunday showed her as shy and withdrawn with this alteration in behaviour alerting to possible sexual abuse, Madeleine being medicated, or other abuse. “Evidence” which is consistent with all hypotheses of time of death is not evidence for an earlier death.


  • Richard Hall sees it as suspicious that Catrina Baker shared meals with the McCanns, suggesting this indicates a close relationship with Ms Baker meeting the McCanns for lunch in their apartment, seeing this as suspicious and reason to treat her statement as suspect. Ms Baker is evidently referring to the high teas which were with parents and children, which is entirely normal. There is no good reason to suppose Ms Baker is involved in an imaginary cover up of an earlier death.

There are basic and fundamental flaws in the claim made by these researchers that Madeleine must have died before 3 May, and the collective errors and flawed reasoning by these researchers gives no basis for supposing that experienced Portuguese police investigators with first hand knowledge of the case were wrong in reaching the conclusion that Madeleine died on 3 May.

(For the sake of accuracy, I omitted “hundreds of active members” since there is nothing to suggest that “hundreds of active members” hold the view that Madeleine died before 3 May).
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Post by Verdi on 11.03.19 12:02

The podcasts so far are a biased collection of carefully incorporated opinion mixed with detail from the PJ Files - this is not a criticism, it's an observation.  As I said initially, you can almost hear the provenance of the narrative.

As a professional criminal profiler, Pat Brown's opinions are worthy in their own right.  However, she has not studied the case detail to be able to relate a case profile. as a criminal profiler - in short, she is on the periphery.  This is not a criticism, it's an observation.

This latest podcast commences with a Sonia Poulton commentary which says little or nothing.  The case files show there was no evidence to suggest  a break-in or abduction - why is this so far the focal point of the podcasts.

PeterMac has contributed far in excess of his visit to Luz, yet only his comment on the entry/exit by bedroom window has been emphasized - I hope there is more of PeterMac to come in future podcasts and a little less Sonia Poulton.  From everything I've seen and read, I don't believe Ms Poulton has followed this case from the beginning - I believe she latched on to the story after the demise of Brenda Leyland but that's an aside except by an indication that she is not sufficiently clued-up on the case to be at the forefront of commentary.

Point is, Mr Saunkonoko's podcasts thus far are proving to be nothing but a reiteration of theorizing by particular prominent people (prominent in terms of interest in the Madeleine McCann case - for whatever reason) combined with the McCann version of events. If you follow twitter, you can easily detect just how gullible folk are, how they put their trust and belief in the wrong 'source' - indeed just how many are out there for all the wrong reasons. There is only one true victim - Madeleine McCann, the rest is fodder for the sake of sensationalism and idle distraction. I know where my loyalty lies - do they?

Book At Bedtime - it's leading nowhere as far as I can see.

Still, time will tell.  I hope I'm wrong.

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Post by Phoebe on 11.03.19 12:30

Apparently, Mark's podcasts are being followed by quite a number of people (as evidenced by their ranking). This is good news. The more people who learn that there are serious questions re. the McCanns version of events, the better!
Mark is clearly capable of thinking for himself and deciding what information he believes is most relevant to the telling of this strange story. It is up to HIM to decide whose opinions he decides to include and what inferences he himself draws from what has been said by various people who have examined the case. He is not a mouthpiece for any group, but his own man, highlighting the aspects which strike him (but always based in hard evidence). 
While I draw different inferences than he from certain behaviours, I still see his podcast as fair, balanced and informative. It would be childish and petty to "cock my nose" at his series because he references or quotes someone I dislike or don't agree with, or to take umbrage because he does not seem to place value on certain theories  I champion. Madeleine's plight is not a contest about "who's righter than whom". It should be about getting the word out to as many as possible that the parents version of events  raises very many real and serious doubts! Thus far, his series is doing just this. Good on him!!!!
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Post by Guest on 11.03.19 13:29

In the first instance he's getting across the message of there was no abduction to those who may only have read and believed the tabloids. What other logical place was there to start? The Smith sightings are in the files he's addressed and questioned this in a non controversial way (the time it took and them knowing Murat) using the hard evidence. If anyone thought that Mark would basically broadcast CMOMM's theories then they need to have a word with themselves.
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Post by HiDeHo on 11.03.19 13:33

Mark Saunokonoko's Madeleine McCann Podcasts - Page 5 Number10


Family walked right past culprit carrying Madeleine McCann, US profiler believes


By Mark Saunokonoko
12:34pm Mar 11, 2019


https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/11/11/28/madeleine-mccann-smith-tanner-sighting-what-happened-maddie-podcast


Mark Saunokonoko's Madeleine McCann Podcasts - Page 5 Firesh13
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Post by Jill Havern on 11.03.19 13:40

HKP wrote:In the first instance he's getting across the message of there was no abduction to those who may only have read and believed the tabloids. What other logical place was there to start? The Smith sightings are in the files he's addressed and questioned this in a non controversial way (the time it took and them knowing Murat) using the hard evidence. If anyone thought that Mark would basically broadcast CMOMM's theories then they need to have a word with themselves.
Oh behave with your constant CMOMM-bashing. Why on earth are you here if you find us so distasteful?

All that was required was an alternative view to Pat's. It didn't happen.

As Verdi pointed out: "PeterMac has contributed far in excess of his visit to Luz, yet only his comment on the entry/exit by bedroom window has been emphasized."
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Post by HiDeHo on 11.03.19 13:58

My role in 'helping' Mark was the same as it is with my HDH members.

To provide REFERENCE LINKS and FACTS so the reader can decide for themselves.

My conclusions based on my research of the files is not something I would expect Mark to use in a podcast.  I am more than happy for him to follow the main points of the case whether I agree with them or not.

He maintains a non biased view of the case, which is of course what we should expect any credible investigative journalist to do.

The podcast and supporting articles should represent the 'facts' from the files and are not aimed at those of us that have researched the case, but be as clear as possible to gain attention of those that have always believed there was an abduction.

He is obviously achieving that and has already had his articles picked up by UK media, as he did two years ago, and with more podcasts and articles to come and with  being in the #1 slot for Britain and Australia podcast chart,  I look forward to see the difference he will be making to reach the UK public that have only relied on MSM false information articles.
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Post by Jill Havern on 11.03.19 14:21

Surely a 'credible investigative journalist's' job is to investigate rather than just report?

Call me old fashioned.
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Post by Guest on 11.03.19 14:32

@Jill Havern wrote:
HKP wrote:In the first instance he's getting across the message of there was no abduction to those who may only have read and believed the tabloids. What other logical place was there to start? The Smith sightings are in the files he's addressed and questioned this in a non controversial way (the time it took and them knowing Murat) using the hard evidence. If anyone thought that Mark would basically broadcast CMOMM's theories then they need to have a word with themselves.
Oh behave with your constant CMOMM-bashing. Why on earth are you here if you find us so distasteful?

All that was required was an alternative view to Pat's. It didn't happen.

As Verdi pointed out: "PeterMac has contributed far in excess of his visit to Luz, yet only his comment on the entry/exit by bedroom window has been emphasized."
It is Mark and his podcast who's taking a bashing on here from those who think he should be listening only to them. Unfortunately CMOMM does not have exclusive rights to tell Mark what to 'cast'. More than one (in fact three) are complaining that PeterMac should have had more say. Maybe there's more to come, maybe not (PeterMac may give a better answer). Up until now the podcast has not dealt with any theories and is based around evidence from the files with a bit of questioning of the facts. The criticism has been unjust, the podcast is about what happened to Maddie not what CMOMM thinks happened to Maddie, he's taking a wider view. That's not to say future casts won't mirror views here I don't know, I am however giving the guy credit, not decrying him.



As for your ''distasteful" comment that's just being melodramatic
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Post by Verdi on 11.03.19 14:36

@Phoebe wrote:Apparently, Mark's podcasts are being followed by quite a number of people (as evidenced by their ranking). This is good news. The more people who learn that there are serious questions re. the McCanns version of events, the better!

So I hear!  That same principal applies to scores of YouTube videos, the majority of which are total and utter nonsense - yet many folk appear to be taken-in.

@Phoebe wrote:Mark is clearly capable of thinking for himself and deciding what information he believes is most relevant to the telling of this strange story. It is up to HIM to decide whose opinions he decides to include and what inferences he himself draws from what has been said by various people who have examined the case. He is not a mouthpiece for any group, but his own man, highlighting the aspects which strike him (but always based in hard evidence).

Yes, I don't doubt for a second Mark Saunokonoko is capable of thinking for himself - what's that got to do with anything?  The subject matter is the content of a series of podcasts produced by Mr Saunokonoko which are CLEARLY a biased view based on a particular group of social media'ites who, as I said, if you take a look at twitter you will see the calibre of commentator.  Some are clearly there for genuine reasons, others are clearly there just to be heard, they are not interested in justice for Madeleine McCann - only in self glorification.

A forum member ^^^ has openly admitted to having assisted Mr Saunokonoko - I rest my case!

Look and learn.

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Post by Verdi on 11.03.19 14:41

HKP wrote:It is Mark and his podcast who's taking a bashing on here from those who think he should be listening only to them. Unfortunately CMOMM does not have exclusive rights to tell Mark what to 'cast'.

Constructive criticism is a healthy process.

The subject matter is Mark Saunokonoko's podcast - nothing more nothing less.

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Post by Verdi on 11.03.19 14:50

@HiDeHo wrote:
He maintains a non biased view of the case, which is of course what we should expect any credible investigative journalist to do.

Mr Saunokonoko hasn't journalistically investigated this case has he. He has produced a series of podcasts on the case of missing Madeleine McCann based on the McCanns version of events and snatches of commentary and research gleaned from social media.

His podcasts are in the public domain, artfully promoted by the key helpers, they are open to scrutiny just the same as CMoMM or any other venue dedicated to the case of missing Madeleine McCann.

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Post by Jill Havern on 11.03.19 14:55

@Verdi wrote:A forum member ^^^ has openly admitted to having assisted Mr Saunokonoko - I rest my case!
Not just a forum member, but a member of CMOMM admin whose main comment was that for her facebook group with emphasis in CAPITAL letters just in case we don't understand small letters.

"My role in 'helping' Mark was the same as it is with my HDH members. To provide REFERENCE LINKS and FACTS so the reader can decide for themselves."

Isn't that what we do here Lizzy?
Isn't that what you do here, Lizzy with your numerous research threads? Why single out your facebook group?
Don't we provide Polls so that readers can decide for themselves?

What about all the REFERENCE LINKS and FACTS contained in the many chapters diligently researched by our very own retired detective POLICE SUPERINTENDENT with 30 years service?
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Post by Guest on 11.03.19 15:15

@Verdi wrote:
HKP wrote:It is Mark and his podcast who's taking a bashing on here from those who think he should be listening only to them. Unfortunately CMOMM does not have exclusive rights to tell Mark what to 'cast'.

Constructive criticism is a healthy process.

The subject matter is Mark Saunokonoko's podcast - nothing more nothing less.
Would this be your constructive criticism (from up page)..

Book At Bedtime - it's leading nowhere as far as I can see.
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Post by Phoebe on 11.03.19 16:25

I fail to see how Mark Saunokonoko can "investigate"  a case which happened twelve years ago. He has no authority to "investigate" a crime nor to question and demand answers from the witnesses (some of whom are no longer available to question!!)
 What he CAN do is recount the evidence from the files, highlight inconsistencies and contradictions and attempt to speak directly to those who were actually involved, in order to clarify facts or seek further information. His role is not to solve, nor to claim to have solved the Madeleine case!  He may ask people for their opinions, but this should only be regarding matters of fact - eg. Peter Mac's report on how narrow the window was etc. I would be unimpressed if he diverted from the established facts into speculation and theories. There is, as Verdi points out, plenty of that which has been going on for years!!! I welcome any programme which publicly emphasises that the  McCann story does not stack up, which recounts the facts and does not push any pet theories.
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Post by Doug D on 11.03.19 21:17

Listened to it through again and MarkS is probably  less convinced about the Smith sighting that I first thought, it’s just the way Pat Brown is brought in at regular intervals which gives that impression.
 
He does attribute the Oakley ‘hypercritical’ report to the Sunday Times, so I was wrong there.
 
Few snips:
 
Sonia Poulton;
 
‘I do not believe MM was abducted’
 
MarkS:
 
Smith sighting – ‘Curious delay………. two weeks later’
 
PB justifies it: ‘weird, people don’t put value on what they see’
 
GA about the JT/RM spy-van sighting:
 
JT is adamant from the way he walks and moves, it was Robert Murat she saw that night.
 
[So 100% sure, even more sure than Smith re GM!]
 
MarkS:
 
‘Month long delay in getting Smith’s statement inexplicably long given the gravity of the situation….
 
All three of them said they would not be able to recognize the man they saw…..
 
Has he (Smith) inadvertently been influenced by the saturation media coverage?……. 
 
After watching (GM coming off plane)….. it took 11 days for him to call……….It’s curious, it seems a long time to wait……..
 
On some level……the 60/80% certain…. Did not add up……
 
At 10.00….. Gerry was at the Tapas Bar…. the testimonies of T7 would all corroborate that……he couldn’t be the man the Smith family saw, it was impossible wasn’t it?
 
The Portuguese police seemed to think so…..
 
But despite the police report, PB claims nothing is certain.
 
The Smith sightings was said to be ‘vitally significant’ by Scotland Yard’
 
So he does place plenty of doubts about the sighting out there.
 
Quite what PB is trying to say I’m just not sure, given the cuts in the recording and her tweet to the media this evening. To me, it doesn’t make sense. 
 
PB: ‘This is the number one issue about the whole case & I’ve stuck by this for years and I stand by it today, there were two people sighted, the McCanns, if their child was kidnapped have heard two things. They could….(recording cut?) one man seen at the Tanner sighting, then there’s the Smith sighting. Both of them are possible, both of them could have been the guy carrying away their child, in other words (another cut?) there’s a least a 50/50 chance that the Smith sighting is a real sighting, at least a 50/50 chance.’
 
Mark S:
‘PB has often told me to look at how the McCanns reacted to the Smith sighting…..' ( and the goes on to talk about how the JT sighting is given pride of place on the ‘Find’ website etc.)
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Doug D

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Mark Saunokonoko's Madeleine McCann Podcasts - Page 5 Empty Re: Mark Saunokonoko's Madeleine McCann Podcasts

Post by ShiningInLuz on 12.03.19 11:26

@Tony Bennett wrote:
HKP wrote:there is no real evidence of earlier death
So...Petermac, Lizzy Hideho, Dr Martin Roberts, Richard Hall, the CMOMM admin team and hundreds of active CMOMM members are all wrong...

...and Operation Grange and the McCanns and their advisers and backers are right in saying that the Smiths really saw someone at 10pm on Thursday 3 May...
Are you saying that 3 people are lying, or mis-remembering?  Perhaps 4, if one counts the alleged media reports about Mary Smith.

It does not need to affect this forum's seemingly preferred choice, of Madeleine dying earlier.

Was it against the law to carry a sleeping child on a street in Luz in May 2007?
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