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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 9:28 am

Mike was given a good chance here to post his theories, and urged to keep to evidence, and he engaged more people in conversation than he does on his own forum.

Mike would still be here, having even more chances to post his theories, had he not abused CMOMM's forum rules by being so aggressively rude towards fellow members - he doesn't allow that sort of behaviour on his own forum, so why did he assume we would tolerate it here?

Verdi knows a WUM when he sees one - as does aquila for that matter.

And as aquila has stated up thread, Verdi does a really good job around here (you only have to look at the volume of reference threads he's initiated, which is what CMOMM is all about) - most of his efforts to bring members facts and evidence are totally ignored by members who prefer to only pick him up on his, sometimes, abrupt manner towards WUM's who seem to delight in disrupting this forum then going back to their own site in order to discredit us. Was that their agenda all along, who knows?

coffee

There's a saying: “You can't understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.”

Try being an unappreciated moderator....and if you fail, you might be a mile away but at least you'll have another pair of shoes.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 10:00 am

@Jill Havern What makes you think I haven't tried being a moderator (elsewhere)? I never resorted to the kind of comments that are made on here. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, allow people to discuss without pre-judging and let them put their thoughts across. What tends to happen is that a statement of 'this forum thinks' or 'this forum believes' comes to the fore when that's not strictly true, for example more people (members) believe the Smiths to be genuine than not, however they are shouted down. The moderators had decided (and they may well be right) that the new member Mike was ''at it'. However to make your mind up after what was literally one post is not keeping an open mind and allowing the members to decide the worthyness or not.
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Post by Liz Eagles on 2/19/2019, 10:28 am

Have I got this right HKP...you left this forum and went to the MMM forum, returned here with a welcome and now you are complaining again?
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 10:38 am

aquila wrote:Have I got this right HKP...you left this forum and went to the MMM forum, returned here with a welcome and now you are complaining again?
With the greatest respect, why are you bringing that up. I never left this forum I was banned for having a contrary view. Would I be right in stating that this is a discussion forum on the subject of what happened to Madeleine McCann. If that's the purpose then allow members to discuss respectfully, some members have complained at their treatment, should that be right?
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 11:26 am

@HKP I don't know if you've read much of the forum homepage but right up at the top it says this:

CMOMM is an investigative forum that researches the death of Madeleine McCann, which many of us believe occurred much earlier in the week, possibly the Sunday or Monday.

Many people (and not just people on this forum, I might add, but people like Dr Martin Roberts and 'Himself' from the McCann Gallery etc) have researched this case from various angles and have arrived at the same conclusion.

Over the years members of this forum have researched the case and concluded that Madeleine died earlier in the holiday. Retired Police Superintendent PeterMac has spent the best part of a decade researching and then another few years writing his e-book and which has been submitted to Operation Grange; other members have made films; written letters to the Prime Minister and the Portuguese Attorney-General.

So, yes, we may well make a statement along the lines of as you say: "this forum thinks' or 'this forum believes' - after all, we're only repeating our 'mission statement' that's at the top of the forum anyway! However, we're not claiming everyone on this forum agrees with us - we know they don't - which is why we have a debate section specifically for people to post their thoughts and theories. But it's still important to keep to facts and evidence. Peter, for instance, always looks for anything he may have missed to add to his ebook.

Phoebe, for example, opposes certain aspects of our theories but have you ever seen her abusive? NO! She debates with us. And we let her carry on...because it's important to 'pick the bones' of this case from all angles.

Yes, Verdi made his mind up in private about Mike after what was 'literally one post' but he didn't make his feelings known on the forum did he? He allowed Mike the opportunity to continue but asked him to keep to known evidence. Mike wasn't only on Verdi's radar either, he was also on mine and Sharon's. He's also been the subject of a thread on the Miscarriage of Justice forum http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7299.0

Yes of course this is a discussion forum - but this forum is viewed by many thousands of people each week, including Police, lawyers, and journalists and it's important to keep to known facts and evidence for us to be taken seriously. Clearly we don't excel at that last bit because no matter which 'Maddie' site you go to we are discredited - twitter, facebook, fora, blogs...you name it and we are referred to as a 'cesspit', or 'McCann shills' (which, spookily, is what Mike Tesko also called us, I might add).

From the photographs Mike posted of himself on the other thread you would think someone of his age, despite having been in a maximum security prison with a notorious serial killer (so I've read, which would understandably give him a bad attitude), but should know not to be so vicious on a public forum about a dead child, where people come here to read about Madeleine and not be confronted with that sort of written abuse.

Finally, I said "Try being an unappreciated moderator" - I didn't say "You should try being an unappreciated moderator"...in other words I wasn't necessarily aiming my comment at you, but for any disgruntled members in general. Throughout the past ten years we've seen all sorts of WUM's on this forum so it's pretty easy these days to make up our minds quickly and then wait for the true colours to appear. There was no need for Mike to be so OTT aggressively insulting - you may have noticed he called me a monster and a vile scumbag for making one polite comment to him.

CMOMM is not the Hotel California - people are free to check out any time they like.

Or they can observe the Forum Rules, be respectful of Madeleine and debate in a civil manner. singlerose
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 11:57 am

@Jill Havern: What happened to be respectful of each other? You and I know Comm is not going to have any imact on the actual case (if you're truthful to yourself you'll admit it has had little impact) therefore don't strangle debate. If I may I'd like to pick up on your statement about facts and evidence, unfortunately the facts and evidence are in the PJ files and whatever the official investigatory forces have found. As much as the members like to think we have uncovered something there is no accepted evidence other than what Grange or PJ have. For example, there is no confirmed evidence that Maddie wasn't seen after the Sunday / Monday that is supported on here, It's circumstantial and a theory not evidence as is most of what's on this forum.

I've had my rant apologies if it upsets anyone however comm should sometimes be a bit more forgiving (not using Mike as an example).

Finally, outing Mike on here (or anybody else for that matter) is poor when it has nothing to do with this forum
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 12:20 pm

Peter has written his ebook based solely on evidence, much of which isn't in the PJ files (i.e. the weather for the holiday week which enabled him to conclude that the Pool Photo could not have been taken on the Thursday as claimed, which attempted to show Madeleine alive and well on the day she was reported missing - quite a serious deception). Did the PJ take the time to research the weather at the time, we don't know - but since they've received our letter they may well do. If they do, then we know where they got that information from don't we? Peter!

So how do we know the work done on this forum isn't going to have any impact? You don't know what's going on behind the closed doors at Operation Grange and the Portuguese Police offices. It's the PJ investigation that matters, that's who we wrote to, and they work in silence.

We're not here to kill time until we find something better to do...we're here to try to get the date of death looked at again which would clearly implicate the McCanns in something far more serious than a faked abduction.

Has any other forum been so pro-active in trying to get the case looked at from a different date of death which would implicate the McCanns in something far more serious? Yet for our efforts we are called shills or cesspitarians!

Rant accepted.

An observation: you seem quite protective of Mike.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 12:49 pm

I don't know Mike from Adam (as the old saying goes) I would just like to see all members treated with respect. There's also a trust issue if people are 'outed' even if they are barred they shouldn't be identified as such.

Last point on evidence: I may 100% believe in Peters weather research however he doesn't have evidence of around that pool at that particular time therefore it's circumstantial.

I'll leave it there before I get into more trouble    big grin
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 1:00 pm

You think that my mentioning Mike's criminal record is poor? You've seen for yourself how abusive he is, what an OTT temper he seems to have; the threats he's made ("I'll be watching you", "Why haven't the McCanns shut you down"); the name's he's called me: "vile scumbag", "monster" etc. He then goes back to his own forum to continue the drama for the benefit of his own members and guests. It seems he's whipping up a bit of hatred here and there because he didn't like the way Verdi moderated the forum, or the way I told him to go back to his own forum and resume talking to himself.

You may not have noticed but I use my real name here, and elsewhere on the internet, not an anonymous three letter abbreviation so it would be reasonably easy for someone to find out where I live if they felt so inclined, would it not, and 'march me off to 'Charm School' or something?

More trouble? Our chat is your perception of being in trouble? Maybe that's why you perceive members aren't treated properly according to you? Maybe you're a bit too sensitive when people are expressing their opinion as I have in the past few posts?

Apologies if I have caused you to feel you're in trouble! I'm just putting my point of view across, that's all singlerose
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 1:05 pm

P.S. This thread is in a private, restricted member's only section of the forum whereas Mike's abusive thread on his own forum is in public view.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 1:32 pm

There's something that your mother should have taught you and probably did:- treat people the way you want to be treated yourself! I aim that at everyone.

It's as simple as that.

The sensitivity claim:- sometimes I'd quite like to hear what people have to say / discuss without them being chased away by overzealous moderating, and them complaining at the treatment they get. Is that being sensitive or curious, the closed minds on here is sometimes frustrating, as is folks being constantly told to stick to the evidence which should actually be stick to the PJ files as that's all the actual evidence we have.

As for you using your real name, that's entirely your choice nobody forced you. I choose to remain anonymous, why give looneys the opportunity to have a go, you obviously don't care, does that make you a stronger person? not in my book but does give the opportunity to play the 'victim' when things go wrong.

PS. I dontd give a stuff what Mike or anybody else is doing / saying on some other forum (the beauty of being anonymous)  big grin
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Post by Ladyinred on 2/19/2019, 1:53 pm

Jill does care, passionately and sincerely, about the fate of Madeleine McCann.  I know that she is a strong, fair and inspiring individual.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 2:01 pm

@Ladyinred wrote:Jill does care, passionately and sincerely, about the fate of Madeleine McCann.  I know that she is a strong, fair and inspiring individual.
You've misunderstood what I meant by care, I was talking about she doesn't care who knows her real identity, this in my eyes leaves her open to abuse.
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Post by Ladyinred on 2/19/2019, 2:15 pm

@HKP  I didn't misunderstand what you posted.  

I was emphasising what I believe Jill does care about.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 2:24 pm

@Ladyinred wrote:@HKP  I didn't misunderstand what you posted.  

I was emphasising what I believe Jill does care about.
Then I apologise for not understanding what you meant, no harm done
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 2:27 pm

Actually, when I created this forum ten years ago it had nothing to do with Madeleine McCann (I already had a blog where I posted about Madeleine anyway)...this forum just turned in to a Madeleine forum as the membership grew and I didn't want to change the url because the work that was already being done here would have been lost on Google and none of the links would have worked. It was only nine years ago that the forum was then named The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann, courtesy of a quote from Clarence Mitchell.

I then decided as I seriously cared about justice for little Maddie that I would do so in my real name, much like Tony, Peter, Richard Hall, and others do. How can you really front a campaign anonymously when writing letters to the Prime Minister(s) and Police Officers in two countries?

You may recall my username used to be Get'emGonçalo - and it was only when Dr Amaral had suffered a pretty horrendous time in his life and wanted to step back that I appreciated and respected that and let go of that username and used my own name to match the existing url.

If that warrants abuse then that says more about the abusers than what I'm trying to do here. And please don't say I take the opportunity to play the victim. There's only been one true victim in this case and her name is Madeleine McCann, aged three.

Everyone should remember her when posting here.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 2:34 pm

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Post by sharonl on 2/19/2019, 2:37 pm

What some do not understand is that we have to distinguish between genuine members and the few that come here merely to cause confusion and disruption.

There are many genuine members who still believe that Smithman was genuine and could have been Gerald McCann.  They may have not updated themselves or read the threads on this subject or watched Richards films, whatever the reason, they genuinely believe in the Smith sighting and amongst other things, the testimony of Mrs Fenn.  These people will have questions and they will wish to discuss, debate and challenge us, this is fully acceptable.

On the other hand, there are a number of people who are not genuine members, they are here to discredit the evidence that points to Madeleine having died earlier in the week.  IMO, these are not McCann supporters but they are here to cover up something that may have occurred before or during the early part of the holiday and involving others, or maybe something that the McCanns are aware of and could disclose. 

This appears to be a government cover up, but why?  "A couple of doctors leave their children un-attended, one gets badly hurt and dies" Would the government really be covering this up to the extent that they have just because they are doctors?  There has to be much more to this, but whatever the reason for the cover up, they just don't want us looking back at those earlier days. 

Whoever these people are, they are all singing from the same hymn sheet, all jumping straight onto the earlier death theory, all trying desperately to enforce the Gerry running through PDL with his daughters corpse as Kate sounds the alarm theory.  They are all abusive and none of them willing to debate or learn.  They dismiss all the research & evidence that has been collected by the members here.  They even resort to violence in some cases.  Is this the behaviour of a member of the public who has an interest in the case and has joined here to discuss it?  No, it isn't, it is someone with a much wider agenda. These are the people who we do not welcome here. 

Teskoski posted a load of nonsense, especially when you put it all together.  He didn't debate with anyone, he asked no questions, just tried to discredit the research of the members here in a bungled attempt to stop us looking back at those earlier days.  Why? Who is he working for?

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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 3:04 pm

HKP wrote:@Jill Havernbow2
Peace singlerose

I don't know if you are aware of the 'old' forum when it first started? Everyone seemed to pile in from everywhere - anti's, pro's, fencesitters - and it was a free-for-all. The 3A's was closed and people wanted a 'meeting place' to carry on their discussions. This place was elected for the task in hand. It was a pretty nasty place to begin with and was just full of terrible arguments and attacks.

If you think it's bad now, you should have seen it back then! I don't know if you remember Muratfan? Well, he was here in all his guises and then we had Ben Thompson/Andrew in all his guises...who tried their best to wreck this forum. They almost succeeded in 2014 but I decided to rise above it and make this forum even bigger and more prominent on the internet - for Madeleine.

It's been a hard slog trying to keep the nasties and weirdos out, I can tell you, to keep all our members safe and secure, and if we sometimes get a bit short of patience for all our voluntary work then it's only because we're human and are just trying to keep the forum sane and try not to let misinformation grow legs and become forum myths.

CMOMM is our passion and we're very protective of it and our members so if that means getting rid of unwanted members then so be it, I'm afraid.

It's my baby, and I'm the Chief Faffer. paint
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 3:21 pm

For anyone who wants a laugh and a trip down memory lane, this is what the forum used to look like up to 2014 before I decided to make it better:

http://archive.li/mdkb2 big grin
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 3:41 pm

I was a member of the mirror forum and also 3As although never posted just read (good old Coldwater). Things changed when the PJ files were released, whilst we may question the veracity of for example witness statements it's never going to change, they are what they are (the PJ can only take the word of witnesses who were out with the McCanns circle). That's why when I suggest allowing theories to prosper rather than always assuming someone has a hidden agenda.

 Somebody died in apartment 5a it seems at the time there was enough evidence to identify that person as Madeleine (by DNA) however as we all know the evidence was destroyed. What we have, which CMOMM calls evidence, is an interpretation like the weather and nobody seeing Madeleine since Sunday, so unless someone comes up with something ground breaking it's a stalemate, for someone to come up with something ground breaking we've got to let them speak. 

I'd happily go along with Dr Amaral's original theory if it got justice for Madeleine.
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Post by Guest on 2/19/2019, 3:45 pm

@Jill Havern wrote:For anyone who wants a laugh and a trip down memory lane, this is what the forum used to look like up to 2014 before I decided to make it better:

http://archive.li/mdkb2 big grin
There was some really good posters there who have either given up or moved on, shame really as they would still have had a lot to contribute
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 3:50 pm

I think a lot of people have become disgusted/disillusioned with this case and given up.

There was a lot of people online that day cos it was Crimewatch Day.

I miss aiyoyo and jeanmonroe.

I'm glad PeterMac is back though.
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Post by Jill Havern on 2/19/2019, 4:10 pm

HKP wrote:I was a member of the mirror forum and also 3As although never posted just read (good old Coldwater). Things changed when the PJ files were released, whilst we may question the veracity of for example witness statements it's never going to change, they are what they are (the PJ can only take the word of witnesses who were out with the McCanns circle). That's why when I suggest allowing theories to prosper rather than always assuming someone has a hidden agenda.

 Somebody died in apartment 5a it seems at the time there was enough evidence to identify that person as Madeleine (by DNA) however as we all know the evidence was destroyed. What we have, which CMOMM calls evidence, is an interpretation like the weather and nobody seeing Madeleine since Sunday, so unless someone comes up with something ground breaking it's a stalemate, for someone to come up with something ground breaking we've got to let them speak. 

I'd happily go along with Dr Amaral's original theory if it got justice for Madeleine.
I see your point(s). I don't care whose theory finally gets justice for Madeleine and I'm pretty sure no-one here would care if our work wasn't needed for that. But, in the meantime, we have to try.

What's the name of your forum?
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Post by Verdi on 2/19/2019, 5:18 pm

OK good people, so here's the rub.

Firstly I will make perfectly clear, I have nothing to gain by being here - I'm not going to become rich and famous overnight nor go down in history as a great crusader nor likely to see a Queen's honour for services to humanity.  I'm happy in the knowledge that I've helped some great people in the quest for justice in the name of Madeleine McCann.

So, introduction over, I'll get down to the gritty nitty.

Using the recently departed Mike Tesko as a case in point, the first thing to notice is a member who registered with the forum in August 2018 but never posted until six months later, on 10th February 2019, only nine days ago.  The member then goes headlong into a claim about a personal visit of discovery to Praia da Luz in the year 2010.

First question .... why did Mike Tesko wait until know to reveal all?

The member then proceeded to swamp the forum with photographs he claims to have taken whilst visiting Praia da Luz, with tales of a derelict building across the road from the church entrance, showing remnants of rag and a rusty old canister of Baygon insceticide with tales of embalming a corpse with Baygon and whatever else.

Second question .... why presume the PJ overlooked this location when conducting a thorough search of the Ocean Club and environs?

Mike Tesko himself posted a link to his own website which, amongst other things, defends a mass murderer whom it has been claimed, Mike Tesko shared a cell with whilst serving a prison sentence himself.

Third question .... is CMoMM, a forum that primarily works for justice in the name of a  missing three year old child, a place to welcome such a person as Mike Tesko?

What prompted this alleged personal visit to Praia da Luz by MikeTesko in the year 2010?  Was the visit solely to privately investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann - a holiday with an outside interest - a contracted mission sponsored by a third party - or what?

Fourth question .... what was the purpose of this personal visit?

As hours progressed, Mike Tesko started to dominate the forum with threads and topics scattered about with post after post, for the most part replying to himself.

Fifth question .... what was Mike Tesko's mission on CMoMM ?

Something I find rather frustrating is the fact that some members are so ready to judge how CMoMM is managed yet don't take the time to read and understand posts before a knee jerk reaction to find fault with admin.

If you read and follow the performance of Mike Tesko in his few days of stardom, you would realise just how inconsistent and contradictory his commentary was.  In short, it was just a collection of random nonsense.

Sixth question .... how does allowing this to continue help the forum's objective?

In fairness, Mike Tesko and others before him, are given every opportunity to prove their worth on the forum.  With general member discussion, Mike Tesko and the like are free to present whatever they have to offer without restraint.  If however this falls short of evidenced material and flies off into the realms of fantasy, seemingly just for the sake of it - talk for talk sake, then the member must expect to be challenged.

Seventh question .... why should CMoMM allow such a worthless non-productive commentary to continue without intervention.  

If I had as many quaffs as I've seen time wasters muscling in on this case over the past eleven + years, I would've been slumped in the gutter of Skid Row long ago.

There is no shortage of suitable venues across the web that welcome idle gossip, crazy theorizing, distractions, trouble making, blood thirsty shenanigans.  If that's your bag then feel free to carry on the CMoMM admin team  witch hunt at a place of your choice - because it ain't going to happen here.

Eighth question .... do respectable genuine members of this forum think it constructive to allow time wasters to disrupt the purpose of the forum?

There are of course different ways of approaching members such as Mike Tesko.  The nice accommodating gentle touch;   the two faced approach, all nice on the outside but back-stabbing behind the scenes;  or telling it like it is, a straightforward approach so everyone knows where they stand.  I prefer the latter direct approach - life is too short for playing games.

Ninth question .... is admin expected to play nice just to pacify an obvious time waster?

For the most part, members are busy with their lives so when visiting the forum they pay little or no attention to the finer detail, what's posted, why, when, where, how.  

That's just a fraction of team admin's function but it is nonetheless time consuming and requires diligence in the form of a very watchful eye.

Tenth question .... is it unreasonable to ask that members allow team admin to get on with the job?  Heaven knows, the forum owner has enough on her plate maintaining the most professional, informative and widely read forum dedicated to the name of Madeleine McCann, without the distraction of a few disgruntled members who don't take the time to understand the whys and wherefores.  Everything is done for a reason.

So, having got that straight, can we now move on from this personal vendetta and get back to important business - Madeleine McCann?

Eleventh question at the eleventh hour .... is that too much to ask?

[All questions are rhetorical]

grouphug

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