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What will crack this case

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Post by Marco on 23.11.18 20:58

Hi,
Whilst this is probably the most authoratative and best informed forum on this case, the focus is too much on the detective work in my view. When we look at our interest in the case, we should consider what our interest is based on. There are dozens of reasons but near or at the top of my list is knowing that true justice is being manipulated and that insults us all as a society. It causes us to object, regardless of political persuasion or background, it's natural justice.
Goncalo Amaral was driven by this in my view because he's a professional with integrity and it must have frustrated the hell out of him to see the investigation sabotaged. In his position, I would make it my life's work to campaign for justice for Madeleine as he has done.
The reason I say this forum is too focussed on detective work, is that: given a fair review of all evidence that exists, an honest jury would not believe the abduction theory; without a shadow of a doubt it wouldn't stand up to any scrutiny. The timeline of the T9 would not stand up to scrutiny, nor would their credibility as witnesses when cross-examined; something that has never happened.
So, no further work is needed on the events, the timeline, the dogs' reactions, the Smith's statements, Mrs Fenn's statements. All that will fall into place once the case is broken open.
Whichever level of conspiracy you sign up to (and there's most certainly conspiracy going on) it is only as strong as its weakest link. The weak links in any conspiracy are the people involved.  Time has moved on, relationships change, loyalties change. Conflicts emerge and the pressure needed to maintain a lie gets stronger.
All this case needs, in my humble opinion, is for one of the protagonists to break ranks. It doesnt have to be one of the main protagonists. But once one affiliated insider gives something up (perhaps somebody without much culpability) then the domino effect will start. This is not to say that the groundwork over the past years is not relevant, it is very relevant because it would all stand up in a court of law. But until that chain is broken, nothing will happen.
I post this in the genuine hope to start a positive debate, rather than get shot down in flames :)
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Post by Marco on 23.11.18 21:15

My interest dips in and out so I can only give praise to the long term committed campaigners here and elsewhereelsewhere who keep the pot boiling.
What encourages me in this corporate media world where dissent is not allowed is the fact that so many people are still taking a fresh look.  The armchair detective being the obvious latest one. No, I don't agree with everything he says, but he's bloody well as indignant as I am that we are being fed a lie and Madeleine is being denied justice. That's where we need to make sure we work together, like I've said elsewhere, winning that philosophical argument with somebody will crack the case wide open. A celeb, a politician, a protagonist, it will only take one thing to crack and the whole thing will fall apart like a pack of cards...
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Post by Verdi on 24.11.18 15:11

I've seen this post before ^^^ or at least something very similar.  Apart from that, it really doesn't make much sense - on the one hand you appear to be asking folk to re-assess their own mindset and on the other hand suggesting that someone out there will break rank for some reason.  My only comment on the latter is a reminder of the many scandalsl/conspiracies over past decades, if not centuries, which have yet to be exposed with any degree of success.

The severity of the crime makes all the difference.  If anyone dares to break rank, the situation will be dealt with as deemed appropriate - remember Dr. David Kelly who allegedly took his own life?

bignono 

Meanwhile..

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14979-letter-to-portugal-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-new-evidence-of-what-happened-to-her

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Post by Marco on 24.11.18 20:34

Hi Verdi, I haven't posted that view before nor have I read it but don't claim to be an original thinker. I appreciate your response even though Im not sure where you are goinggoing. I'm genuinely not asking for people to reset their mind set. I love new nuggets of evidence when they come to light and it's the kind of detective work that will win the case in a court. There's DNA evidence that has been doctored or suppressed, there's the McCanns financial and medical history suppressed. Yes evidence like this could smash it wide open but it's never going to be voluntarily or politically given up.
My point was, although perhaps not well made, is that all the evidence needed by a court is there already, but it would only take an "event" of some sort to get the system to be forced to expose it to some form of judicial process, something which, so far, has been politically suppressed.
My post was about finding the weakest link in the conspiracy, because that's what it is on whichever level you follow. So I'm just trying to suggest that there are so many protagonists involved in this case, who all seem to be eithercase a) conspiring to stay silent, or b) too scared to break ranks. The focus should be on b. Perhaps it could be somebody directly involved in the conspiracy but who genuinely were misled and carry serious misgivings to this day. Such a person might break ranks in the right environment. The corporate media are certainly still on board, but given that rebecca Brooks once had the power and inclination to "persuade" the prime minister to open operation grange, i dont believe the same pressures can be applied nowadays, and if something credible comes out, the house of cards falls.
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Post by Pete123 on 10.12.18 11:38

There is probably still loads of evidence that the PJ have that has not been made public, same as there is more in the UK. Not just the ones you have mentioned. We can only theorise with the info and evidence we are given, and with so much of this being contradictory, unreliable, or incomplete, there is no starting point. Its like being given a bag of mixed jigsaw pieces and being asked to make the picture. But not being given a picture. Some pieces make a part of one picture or theory, some make part of another, others make part of a third, and so on. Some of the right bits are in there, but there is no way of saying which ones they are. I believe some bits of statements are true, but which bits and from who is hard to say. Like the tennis ball photo for example:

* Rachael is claiming in her rogatory interview the Tennis photo was taken by Jane on Thursday 3rd at 10.30 am
* But Catriona Baker claims in her rogatory interview that on Thursday 3rd at 10.30 am Maddie is sailing and crying at the launch of the yellow safety boat
* Kate says in her book that she took the photo on Tuesday 1st in the morning. "Standing there listening intently to Cat’s instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion."
* Jane tanner says the picture was taken on the Wednesday
* The creche schedule puts mini tennis as the activity for Monday morning not Tuesday as Kate suggests
* The police say the know this photo was taken at 10.29am on Thursday May 3rd
* I also think I remember reading either Matthew or David saying that Jane didn't take it.
* and finally, the photo might actually be fake according to some.

What I mean is they may all be wrong, or one is actually telling the truth. But we don't know which one to believe. Until we get more info released from either the PJ, Leicestershire or Scotland Yard we are left with too much guesswork to fill in the blanks.

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Post by Tony Bennett on 10.12.18 12:41

@Pete123 wrote:There is probably still loads of evidence that the PJ have that has not been made public, same as there is more in the UK. Not just the ones you have mentioned. We can only theorise with the info and evidence we are given, and with so much of this being contradictory, unreliable, or incomplete, there is no starting point. Its like being given a bag of mixed jigsaw pieces and being asked to make the picture. But not being given a picture. Some pieces make a part of one picture or theory, some make part of another, others make part of a third, and so on. Some of the right bits are in there, but there is no way of saying which ones they are. I believe some bits of statements are true, but which bits and from who is hard to say. Like the tennis ball photo for example:

* Rachael is claiming in her rogatory interview the Tennis photo was taken by Jane on Thursday 3rd at 10.30 am
* But Catriona Baker claims in her rogatory interview that on Thursday 3rd at 10.30 am Maddie is sailing and crying at the launch of the yellow safety boat
* Kate says in her book that she took the photo on Tuesday 1st in the morning. "Standing there listening intently to Cat’s instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals that I ran back to our apartment for my camera to record the occasion."
* Jane tanner says the picture was taken on the Wednesday
* The creche schedule puts mini tennis as the activity for Monday morning not Tuesday as Kate suggests
* The police say the know this photo was taken at 10.29am on Thursday May 3rd
* I also think I remember reading either Matthew or David saying that Jane didn't take it.
* and finally, the photo might actually be fake according to some.

What I mean is they may all be wrong, or one is actually telling the truth. But we don't know which one to believe. Until we get more info released from either the PJ, Leicestershire or Scotland Yard we are left with too much guesswork to fill in the blanks.
On the whole this is a good post.

The eight bullet points above about the much-disputed Tennis Balls Photo are a very useful summary and I would agree at this stage that we really cannot say who took this photo, when it was taken, on what camera it was taken, and whether it has been merely cropped, or also photoshopped etc.  What I think we can say with accuracy, however, is that we have not been told the whole truth about it. And that alone is an important finding.  

You said in your introduction: "There is probably still loads of evidence that the PJ have that has not been made public".

I very much doubt if they have held back "loads". They said in August 2008 that they had disclosed most of the documentation  and did hold back some "documents".

You also wrote: "We can only theorise with the info and evidence we are given, and with so much of this being contradictory, unreliable, or incomplete, there is no starting point. It's like being given a bag of mixed jigsaw pieces and being asked to make the picture....Some of the right bits are in there, but there is no way of saying which ones they are".

The jigsaw piece analogy is a good one, indeed the McCanns used it many times themselves, begging us to help them find 'the missing piece of the jigsaw'. As if they had 999 pieces already and were just looking for the one missing piece!

Where you refer to 'mixed jigsaw pieces', I think you mean that we have been given some true jigsaw pieces, but along with many false ones. 

In other words, we have a mixture of truth i.e. truthful statements along with many statements that are false or misleading.

We have on this forum sorted out some things. For example, there is IMO overwhelming evidence that the Last Photo by the pool was taken on Sunday, not Thursday as the McCanns claimed. That is a very important factual finding.

I think nearly all are agreed on here that Nuno Lourenco's statement about Wojchiech Krokowski is a tissue of lies from start to finish.

Sometimes we encounter complete contradictions.

For example, evidence that there are no proven photos of Madeleine after Sunday and no credible independent witnesses that she was alive after Sunday conflicts with (a) Pamela Fenn's evidence of a child crying on the Tuesday (b) Martin Smith's claim that he saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine at 10pm on Thursday and (c) the claims of the McCanns, their friends and Cat Baker that she was alive all week.

In these circumstances we have to weigh up the cogency of the evidence on either side and try to sift out the 'right' jigsaw pieces from the 'wrong' ones.  Who is telling the truth, who is lying, who is mistaken etc.    

Of all the contradictory pieces of evidence, you said: "But we don't know which one(s) to believe".

I would suggest that we have many clues already as to which statements are true and which ones are false and fabricated. That has been a big part of our work here. We have tried for nine years to get ever closer to what really happened to Madeleine McCann.

And when.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Verdi on 10.12.18 14:06

@Pete123

You are comparatively new to the forum Pete123 so may not be aware of the lengths members of CMoMM, past and present, have gone to in order to piece together the jigsaw and thus get an overall picture of this convoluting case.

I strongly recommend you take time out to read the forum to get an idea of the extensive works of analysis and research accomplished to get where we are today.  You can use the various forum search facilities to locate topics of particular interest to you, if you need any help navigating your way around, just ask.  Rather than concentrating on the negatives, what we don't know, work with the positives - the evidence, intelligence and informed opinion to help develop understanding of the case and hopefully get closer to the truth.

Thank you for posting your thoughts so far but I respectfully to ask that you post any additional generalisations and musings on the following thread..

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t15702-leave-no-stone-unturned#393654

Thanks!

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Post by Pete123 on 10.12.18 16:55

Thank you Verdi. I am fully aware of the depth of knowledge on here regarding Madeleine. That is why I wanted to join. It is the most extensive, well researched place on the internet for this case. I understand there are many highly intelligent members, with far better skills than I have, who have devoted and dedicated 1000s of hours researching and sharing their knowledge for many years. I am new to this forum, but am not new to the research. 

I was merely responding to the thread question of 'What will crack this case?' Without any disrespect to anybody, or the site, or site owner, I was trying to point out that with all the knowledge and experience here and elsewhere analysing the evidence which is available at present, collectively, including me, we are no nearer to establishing without doubt where/when/why/how, and by whom did Madeleine die, if indeed she did, because that is still at present not beyond doubt either. If Madeleine did die, who/when and how was she moved?  This may be misunderstood as being negative, but it's not meant to be. These are the questions we all want answered for Madeleine. I believe if the evidence needed was already available to the public, then it would have be analysed on here by now and the case would be cracked, as I believe the most dedicated people to Madeleine are here. I will always continue to look for answers for as long as we need them. That is why I am here.

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Post by Tony Bennett on 10.12.18 17:23

@Pete123 wrote:...I was trying to point out that with all the knowledge and experience here and elsewhere analysing the evidence which is available at present, collectively, including me, we are no nearer to establishing without doubt where/when/why/how, and by whom did Madeleine die, if indeed she did, because that is still at present not beyond doubt either. If Madeleine did die, who/when and how was she moved?  This may be misunderstood as being negative

...I believe if the evidence needed was already available to the public, then it would have been (sp) analysed on here by now and the case would be cracked, as I believe the most dedicated people to Madeleine are here. I will always continue to look for answers for as long as we need them. That is why I am here.

I believe your post not only looks negative but is deeply negative.

You claim we are no nearer to establishing without doubt where/when/why/how, and by whom did Madeleine die, if indeed she did".

You are incorrect. If you compare where we were nine years ago with where we are now, a great deal of progress has been made, as any regular member or guest here would be bound to agree.

If a group of people do something wrong and try to hide the truth by a hoax and lies, it is very hard for people to peel away at what really happened. I can assure you we have peeled off quite a few layers of untruths already.

Are you here to help us?   think you said you were 'here to help Madeleine'?

If you are, quit the negativity...

...and get stuck in!

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Pete123 on 10.12.18 17:32

I apologise Mr Bennett. I should not have said 'no nearer'. You are right. A lot of work has been done tirelessly and I apologise again.

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Post by Jill Havern on 10.12.18 17:35

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