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Post by Secondthoughts2 on 30.08.20 17:06

@Crusader

Thank you for posting what you did.

So I was not only one who could see that there was a possibility that a child any child could have fallen from this area.

So indeed wrong to say that it was not possible.

In case of Madeleine.  As you say, the Portuguese investigated same.

Thanks again.
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Post by Verdi on 30.08.20 20:47

@Secondthoughts2 wrote:@Crusader

Thank you for posting what you did.

So I was not only one who could see that there was a possibility that a child any child could have fallen from this area.

So indeed wrong to say that it was not possible.

In case of Madeleine.  As you say, the Portuguese investigated same.

Thanks again.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14767p325-documented-evidence#425066

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14767p325-documented-evidence#425066

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Post by miffy8 on 31.08.20 23:30

  She noticed a stain, supposedly of tea, on Madeleine's pyjama top, which she washed a little later that same morning. She hung it to dry on a small stand, and it was dry by the afternoon.
Where was the small stand placed? Presumably outside on the balcony. Did she also wash cuddle cat at the same time? (I've read she washed this twice) Could the wet pyjama top or the cat or both have dripped evidence into the bushes and foliage and could possibly be an explanation as to the dog alerting in the garden area.

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Post by Silentscope on 01.09.20 8:41

@miffy8

There was a collapsible metal dryer stand in a picture somewhere, I will post it when I find it again.

My thought is that the Pyjama top was washed AFTER the discovery and the TEA STAIN was of something else.

The dripping transfer of washed evidence may be possible, but “ask the Dogs” on that one I am afraid.

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Post by Silentscope on 01.09.20 9:09

Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 12 D74bc676-502d-4f38-ba68-1d49c077114f
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Post by miffy8 on 01.09.20 10:07

Thank you Silentscope. The dogs did indeed reply in this area. The purpose of my post was a possible explanation as to why.

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Post by Silentscope on 01.09.20 11:00

Where has the picture gone ? Admin - please help! 

Just a shame Dogs cannot type us a report miffy8, then we would all know a lot more. I do not have a problem with your possible explanation.

How strong or weak the scent was indicated to the Handler as I seem to remember. It implied a Cadaver was laid up somewhere below in the Garden area for a short time. 

Possibly the time when Gerry was going to hand it to Jane, but she got disturbed by Jeremy? 

Appreciate your input.
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Post by Franco99 on 13.09.20 20:13

Putting aside temporarily the deception and duplicity of all the members of the Tapas group, it seems to me that the disappearance of Madeleine McCann hinges on the single fact that the police dogs found definite traces of both her blood and her corpse in the McCann's apartment.


This incontrovertible fact totally destroys the McCann's ludicrous allegation that the child had been kidnapped. If someone had entered the apartment intending to kidnap Madeleine and a struggle had ensued which caused a loss of her blood, they might still have taken her. However, she would have had to have died in that struggle and stayed there long enough to produce sufficient cadaver traces for the dog to have discovered some days later.


One has to ask how likely is it that kidnappers, intent on breaking into a holiday apartment to steal a child, would make off with the body of a child who was now dead?


This whole story hangs upon the McCann's assertion that their child has been 'kidnapped' . Not one other person - any of their friends or the police - are able to confirm that claim and, in the panic that must have ensued after her death, it appears to have been their best thought-out story to account for Madeleine's disappearance.


The dogs' finding of cadaver evidence in that apartment is conclusive proof that Madeleine's dead body had been there at some time that week and the only possible reasons for that must be that she either died there or her body was brought there from somewhere else. The finding of blood traces there as well suggests perhaps the former rather than the latter as I don't believe a body bleeds after death, but I could be wrong on that.


Gerry McCann's “missing sports bag” sounds ideal for transportation purposes but, like Madeleine's body, will probably never turn up again. I'm told that cremation destroys nearly everything.


Why and how she died is another story entirely but the cover-up of this crime, that seems to have gone right the way up through the highest levels of British society, clearly indicates the usual pattern of control exercised by VIPs when embarrassment looms.....
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Post by Franco99 on 23.09.20 12:10

Having worked for the Foreign Office, Clarence Mitchell is obviously well practised in covering up awkward information and some of his statements demonstrate this very clearly.

He says that he was "seconded by the Foreign Office to go and help the McCanns".  Yet he's also stated that he was so convinced of the McCanns' innocence that he "resigned his job" and went straight to Portugal.  Are we to believe that both the F.O. and Mitchell made the same instant presumption of innocence for the McCanns, when virtually nothing but their child's disappearance had been revealed?  

He also says that from the start he was "assured by the authorities" that the McCanns were innocent!  Another snap-decision by the F.O.?  Or someone even more authoritive than them??

He's also quite skilled in playing down the truth about just how careful the McCanns were when leaving their children alone at night.  He claims their apartment was "only a few metres away" or even sometimes "only 50 meters away".  Yet others who know the area well suggest figures of between 120 / 150 metres is more likely and his statement that the restaurant "gave a clear line of sight of the apartment's windows" is also denied by people who live there and who say that trees obscured the view from the restaurant.

It's also interesting that the waiter who usually served them in the restaurant stated in his police interview that their group of nine usually drank between 8 & 10 bottles of wine each night!  This could suggest that what any of them could apparently see from the restaurant was probably based less on reality than we are given to understand.   And that would also apply to subsequent descriptions offered of their street-sightings of potential kidnappers....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191094/Paedophile-Raymond-Hewlett-admits-I-saw-Madeleine-McCann-twice-disappeared.html

The other curious "elastic fact" I see on the above Daily Mail article (June 2009) relates to their claim that "..38 paedophiles were known to have been in the Algarve" at the time.  Yet I recollect that the Portugese police had previously indicated that they knew of 62 paedophiles living around the area of Praia da Luz.  A figure which frankly amazed me at the time - not just because they were all known to the police - but one had to wonder just why that 'sleepy village' was so popular with these people and might its popularity have some bearing on why Madeleine's disappearance had to be covered up?

___________________________________________

Franco99,

Hope you don't mind, I've taken the liberty of moving your post.

The 'Media Mayhem' thread is essentially a reference source for media reports, past and present.  I consider your observations to be well worth further notice - over on 'Media Mayhem' your post would be lost and buried.

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Post by Silentscope on 23.09.20 13:03

Why would PDL not be known to people who are allegedly (Gaspar statements) of the same type?

Was it chosen to hide among them? 

Or to use them as a Smokescreen?
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Post by miffy8 on 23.09.20 14:28

"They've taken her" always struck me as not the natural first assumption on the discovery of your missing child. The inference being, with a degree of certainty even, of the involvement of more than one person. This could indicate prior knowledge of the location and it's extraordinarily, by all accounts, large contingent of paedophiles in and around the area. If Madeleine was not around from very early on did something not go according to plan? On the flip side which makes me think otherwise is, if there was a predilection to this sort of thing within this group, the last thing you'd be likely to do is keep yourself in the spotlight putting yourself under the inevitable ensuing scrutiny from all angles, for what appears to be evermore. Rather you'd want to become 'tomorrow's fish and chip paper' rather speedily wouldn't you to enable you to carry on? Correct me if I'm wrong but these sorts of unsavoury behavioural traits aren't usually reserved for 'one off' occasions.

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Post by Silentscope on 23.09.20 14:52

If you look at quotes from Gerrys bedtime reading I get the impression that they thought it would blow over in a few weeks.

If I had a Kidnap in the same circumstances my thoughts would be:

A. It is Ransom / Extortion for Money scenario.
B. I am expected to do something for the Kidnapper.
C. My position at work is to be Exploited.

NOT - a Pedo is on the prowl.

But then it is not at the front of my thought processes, unlike other people...
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Post by Franco99 on 23.09.20 17:00

Sadly, Silentscope, I think you're falling into the intended trap if you give credence to it being any sort of kidnap.  That was exactly what the McCanns have always wanted the public to believe.  Hence the "They've taken her.." cry by K.M., without a shred of evidence ever being produced to back it up.  Let alone asking her who "They" were.

I can't say that paedophiles are at the front of my thought processes either but there do seem to be several not totally obscured connections with people of that persuasion and this part of Portugal.

Let me offer a theory which might perhaps tie into that.  It only occurred to me whilst reading an earlier comment here about "..The McCanns & their friends lying about leaving their children alone every night.."

Might it be feasible that they weren't 'alone' each evening?  Has it been considered that there might have been a totally unknown person who - by previous arrangement - was being allowed to "babysit" whilst the parents were able to spend worry-free evenings with their friends?

Could it be that something occurred during the "babysitting" that the McCanns hadn't expected and, when they returned later, were horrified to find Madeleine's dead body in their apartment?

I appreciate that this is only a theory at present but it would neverthe less explain several of the curious anomalies in this case, particularly if the unknown person was someone with powerful friends in Britain....
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Post by Silentscope on 23.09.20 17:26

No need to be sad Franco, I do not believe it was a real kidnap.

Even if it was - I would wait to hear from them first, instead of putting the Victim in Danger by going Public straight away. Against Police advice. Making the Victim unsellable to potential Buyers by Identifying her to the World.

The Babysitting theory has been mentioned by other Members in the past, but as far as I am aware this could only be proved by Interviewing the Tapas crew properly. There is no trace or clue of a Physical nature to support it.

The Babysitter would have to talk to prove anything.

Only then could this Theory become Evidence.
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Post by Verdi on 24.09.20 1:53

@Silentscope wrote:The Babysitting theory has been mentioned by other Members in the past, but as far as I am aware this could only be proved by Interviewing the Tapas crew properly. There is no trace or clue of a Physical nature to support it.

The Babysitter would have to talk to prove anything.

Only then could this Theory become Evidence.

I am somewhat bewildered by your observations.

'... but as far as I'm aware this could only be proved by interviewing the Tapas crew properly.'

What is a proper interview?  

The McCanns and their friends were interviewed on record and off record by the PJ.  One year later, the group of friends were re-interviewed extensively during the rogatory process initiated by the Portuguese police.  It's all contained in the PJ files released in the public domain.

If you're thinking waterboarding or something similar, sorry, this is 21st century in the developed world.

Moving on, you say  .... 'There is no trace or clue of a Physical nature to support it'

Meaningless.  Pass!  

Moving on, you say .... 'The Babysitter would have to talk to prove anything.  Only then could this Theory become Evidence'

Talk proves nothing.  Analysis of the spoken work can perhaps be of assistance but it doesn't constitute proof of anything.  

A theory cannot become evidence, only evidence can be considered evidence.  For example, a footprint might be considered significant and incite theory in a criminal investigation but without corroborative forensic analysis. it remains nothing but a footprint.

If only life were that simple.

Meaningless.  Moving on ....

ETA:  You might like to pay attention to the detail.  It is on record that one or other member of the group was poorly during to week, so didn't accompany the rest to the Tapas restaurant.

You might also like to consider the position of the childcare worker Catriona Baker and that of the childcare worker Charlotte Pennington.  If you pay careful attention to these two key players, you might realise the distinct possibility that one or the other might have been babysitting for the group unofficially.

This is how a criminal investigation develops.  The investigative force do not proceed on the premise of belief in one or another witness statement.

CMOMM documents a wealth of information relative to the case of missing Madeleine McCann.  It's taken years to get were we are now, take time to read and absorb before challenging the forums standing.

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Post by Milo on 24.09.20 7:17

I agree with the Franco's practice of inserting inverted commas around the words "babysitting" and "alone", as long as inferences are not in conflict with the volume of information held by CMOMM, from the police files to respected researchers here, hard evidence.

Btw, what are we supposed to think about the reading material on GM's bedside table? Not so much why would he be reading it but why he left it sitting there [to be seen], FGS. Similar story with John Ramsey, father of Jon BÉnet.
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Post by Milo on 24.09.20 7:56

Please ignore my previous posting about "babysitting". It did not make sense. I will construct something coherent later!
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Post by Silentscope on 24.09.20 9:32

@Verdi
I do not advocate Torture as a form of Interrogation. Of course it would be wonderful if someone would just tell us all what really happened.

I have not seen so far in any Documents where the above “Babysitting”
theory was ever purposely pursued at any Interview.
It does not mean I am trying to undermine your efforts.

Maybe I just missed it somewhere?

@Milo 
It would interest me to know when this Book was bought, and how much relevance certain passages have to the “House of Truth” that was constructed from it. For me it appears to be the Foundation stone.
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Post by Verdi on 24.09.20 12:11

@Silentscope wrote:I have not seen so far in any Documents where the above “Babysitting”
theory was ever purposely pursued at any Interview.
No you wouldn't have seen the babysitting theory documented nor pursued during interviews, because it is member Franco99's theory, presented here on CMOMM, without supporting evidence I might add.

In the interest of clarity, it would also be helpful if you could identify 'the book with quotes', you refer to, at Gerry McCanns bedside.

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Post by Silentscope on 24.09.20 12:38

The Interpretation of Murder

The PJ video recorded that Gerry McCanns' choice of bedtime reading, included 'The Interpretation of Murder - A Book found in the PJ Search of the McCanns rented Villa.

Quotes:
"The announcement was pure invention, but it was believed, and therefore within three weeks it was so. Mr Banwell had mastered the great truth that truth itself, like buildings, can be manufactured." (p.9).

"I cannot be expected to solve a murder if the evidence is trampled and tampered with before I arrive." (p.22).

"In this heat, he explained, decomposition would rapidly set in if the corpse was not refrigerated at once." (p.28).

"Littlemore studied the bedroom. 'Miss Acton', he said, 'how do you think the man got in here last night?'

'Well, he must have – why, I don't know.'

It was, Littlemore reflected, certainly a puzzle. There were only two doors to the Acton house, the front and the back... ....Could the intruder have climbed in through a window?" (p.299).


At your Service - Silentscope 
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Post by Verdi on 24.09.20 12:46

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t16425-gerry-mccann-s-bedside-reading-the-interpretation-of-murder#402952

Quite how that fits in with your comment up-page, I am at a loss to understand..


@Silentscope wrote:If you look at quotes from Gerrys bedtime reading I get the impression that they thought it would blow over in a few weeks.

But never mind, life is short.

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Post by Silentscope on 24.09.20 13:08

I was researching the Possibility that this Book was used to construct the whole Abduction scenario. But I see that it has already been done.

At least we are on the same track.
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Post by Silentscope on 24.09.20 14:06

@Franco99
Gerry McCann's “missing sports bag” sounds ideal for transportation purposes but, like Madeleine's body, will probably never turn up again. I'm told that cremation destroys nearly everything.

Silentscope 
I agree, but the Crematorium would have had to check the Casket before it was put in the Oven. Pacemakers and other dangerous Items could cause an Explosion otherwise. They would surely notice an Extra body or the Wrong one.
Unless they were in on it?
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Post by Franco99 on 24.09.20 14:26

Silentscope 
I agree, but the Crematorium would have had to check the Casket before it was put in the Oven. Pacemakers and other dangerous Items could cause an Explosion otherwise.


I would imagine that, before sending a corpse to an undertaker, a GP or hospital would provide a certificate indicating the likelihood of a pacemaker (and probably offering a removal service).  I cannot imagine an undertaker or crematorium worker having to cut one out of a body.

If foreign cremations are anything like those in the UK, where one seems to be allotted about 10 minutes for a service and then have to get out of the way of the next incoming grieving relatives awaiting their 10 minute slot, I doubt the crematorium staff would have any spare time to deal with pacemakers.

The body I was thinking about was already in its coffin and awaiting cremation the next day, so I guess all the usual formalities had been dealt with at that stage.
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Post by Silentscope on 24.09.20 14:47

@Franco99
No Cremation Operator would remove anything out of a Body.

Just a Final check that the Body is the right Person with the Undertaker present with the Paperwork would be done.
The Hospital or Doctor that pronounced the Death would not know how the Body is to be placed at rest. The Undertaker is then the Agent of the Relatives, he is responsible for the Body and it’s safety. (And that of other workers)
All Batteries, hearing Aids, Pacemakers can explode in Fire.
Hip replacements are made of Titanium and can be removed with the Ashes.
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