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Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Mm11

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Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008

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Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Empty 60 QUESTIONS - BUT NO GOOD ANSWERS

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.09.18 20:41

@Phoebe wrote:
The title of this thread is

Re: Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008.

I think it is clear, both from the evidence in the police files and from Dr. Amaral's book, that this is untrue.
@ Phoebe,

It's obvious we are never going to agree, no matter what further evidence is produced or discussed.

I will just gently point out that you may have never read this thread...

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11056-smithman-5-the-evidence-of-the-smith-family-from-drogheda-ireland-the-twelve-sets-of-contradictions

...in which I pointed out no fewer than TWELVE sets of contradictions. I certainly can't recall you explaining many of them, if any.

Moreover, some time ago I posted up a list of 60 questions which were designed to challenge those who adamantly maintain that Martin Smith is a witness of truth. I thought perhaps my opponents would rally to the challenge and inundate me with good answers for all or nearly all of the questions....

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14985-smithman-12-can-anyone-who-still-believes-that-the-smiths-saw-gerry-mccann-carrying-madeleine-satisfactorily-answer-any-of-these-60-questions

...but I hardly got a single response...

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Phoebe on 15.09.18 23:21

@  Tony Bennett.  Ok Tony, I have opened the link you provided above  and am responding.

1) You state that the Smiths "created" two different e-fits of two different looking men. The fact is that we know nothing of how those e-fits came into being, other than the official response which says that they were drawn up with the aid of two witnesses. Who is to say that the Smiths did not assist with only one image (probably the older-style, less lifelike one) and that the second image was not produced until afterwards, using a different method to "enhance" and alter it slightly. Both e-fits, despite their differences, resemble the face of Gerry McCann from different angles as has been shown previously on other threads on CMOMM and elsewhere with relevant images and comparisons.

2) You state that the Smiths said they would be unable to recognise the man again and infer that this means that they have forgotten what he looked like. You also quote  (yes, FROM THE MEDIA again) claims that the Smiths spoke to the press to state that they had barely seen the man. 
 The fact is that Martin Smith NEVER gave any interviews to the press. All claims by the media refer to "a family member" or "a source close to the family". Meanwhile, (in the real world) the letter from the Irish Gardai to the P.J. makes it perfectly clear that Smith "Has Given no stories" to the press.
Martin Smith never said he could not remember the man's face in order to describe it - what he actually said was that -
"It is not possible to recognise the individual in person or by photograph." 
This means that he would not be confident about picking the correct man out of a line-up of men of similar appearance and dress or a photographic spread of similar-looking faces. Not that he cannot remember what he saw!

3) You make much of the fact that some of the Smiths saw the man's face clearly while others didn't, while ignoring the fact that the Smiths did not all encounter him at the same time, nor from the same angle nor at the same spot on the road. The Smith group were not walking together in a single group but spread out in several small groupings. 

4) Again you rely on the MEDIA reports which claim that the Smiths said the child was and wasn't wrapped in a blanket. It is perfectly clear from the P.J. files that the Smiths were totally consistent in describing the child as not being covered by anything other than clothing.

5) Once again, you turn to MEDIA REPORTS to suggest that there is a discrepancy in the Smith's reaction to the sighting, even referring to the "audio report in an Irish voice". Whoever was hoping this "Irish" voice would be mistaken for Martin Smith got it badly and hilariously wrong. As a Drogheda man, born and bred, Martin Smith would have a north Dublin accent, not a Northern Irish one, despite the geographical location. (clumsy mistake this!!!)

6) Once again, in your section on reasons for their delay in reporting the sighting you rely on MEDIA REPORTS, this time the Daily Fail and The Mirror for evidence. Half of the Smith witnesses left Portugal the next morning. What would you have them do, delay returning to work, school, ante-natal appointments in order to go to a foreign police force to say they had seen a man down town carrying a child! Hardly an unusual sight, was it and - "Oh and by the way, half of us who witnessed it are gone back home"!  In any case, the news of Tannerman having been seen "abducting Madeleine 50 mins earlier and going in the opposite direction to the man they saw nearly an hour later would have convinced them there was no connection.

7) with regard to the alleged inconsistencies in describing Smithman's upper clothing, I think there is a very simple, reasonable explanation. There were numerous witnesses and it is obvious and natural that they discussed at length among themselves what each remembered seeing.  In fact, the P.J. files tell us in Peter Smith's statement that his son Tadhg   "WAS QUESTIONED IN IRELAND AND SAID THAT THE INDIVIDUAL WAS DRESSED IN A LONG-SLEEVED COAT OR JACKET. BLACK IN COLOUR AND THAT THE CHILD WAS BAREFOOT."  Once again you turn to the phony "audio recording" to support claims of inconsistencies.

8) Martin Smith said the man was aged "35-40 years" and later "aged approximately 40". Where is the inconsistency! Oh wait! There it is in THE MEDIA again, once more taken from the phony "audio recording" in the wrong accent, put out by those supporting the McCanns !

9) Re. Smith's alleged "inconsistencies about how well he Robert Murat well, in the P.J. files he clearly states that "He met Murat twice in May and Aug. 2006".
 But wait for it! Here comes the trustworthy MEDIA again (you know the Media who claim that Madeleine was "snatched", that specialist dogs are often wrong and that P. de L. was full of smelly burglars who loved to sit on little girls beds) claiming to quote a man WHO HAS GIVEN NO INTERVIEWS.

10) I very much doubt hat Mary Smith "approached" the man to ask if the child was asleep. It is much more likely that she made a comment as she passed along the lines of "Aw! is she asleep". No, the Smiths do not mention this specifically in their statements but they DO say ( in the reliable files) that "The individual did not speak". Why would he unless he had been spoken to. Gemma O'Doherty, who has interviewed the Smiths (kudos there) confirms that Mrs. Smith did address such a comment to the man.

Finally, we are either to believe the media and press reports or we are not. It is ridiculous to pick what suits and proclaim its veracity while simultaneously scoffing at media reports which do not suit.
If the all-trustworthy media is to be heeded, then Madeleine was indeed snatched from her bed by a paedophile ring operating in a crime ridden town policed by sardine-munching, incompetent buffoons who didn't bother to turn up to Apt 5A for hours and stood around 
scratching themselves while Kate and Gerry "braced themselves" for news. We cannot have it both ways!!!!!
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Post by sharonl on 15.09.18 23:37

@Phoebe

These e-fits were not produced until months after Madeleine was reported during which time Gerry had featured in the news almost every day.  The whole world knew by then, exactly what Gerry looked like.

If as you say, the Smiths  assisted in producing at least one of those e-fits, and they claim that it may have been Gerry that they had seen, why do the e-fits not look exactly like Gerry?

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Post by Phoebe on 15.09.18 23:49

@ sharonl. Maybe I see things differently to you, but to my eyes Image 1 (the less lifelike one) is the absolute spitting image of poor Gerry. I believe he had the misfortune to be seated underneath it on a chat show and the program had an influx of calls saying "You're interviewing the man in the e-fit!! I suspect image two (the "improved" version missing half the face) was created to try to distract from the extraordinary resemblance between Gerry and image 1.
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Post by Verity on 16.09.18 2:24

@Phoebe wrote:@ sharonl. Maybe I see things differently to you, but to my eyes Image 1 (the less lifelike one) is the absolute spitting image of poor Gerry. I believe he had the misfortune to be seated underneath it on a chat show and the program had an influx of calls saying "You're interviewing the man in the e-fit!! I suspect image two (the "improved" version missing half the face) was created to try to distract from the extraordinary resemblance between Gerry and image 1.
And yet, in these past five years since Crimewatch, Operation Grange have done nothing about it.

DCI Redwood did nothing. DCI Wall has done nothing.

So, does that mean it wasn't Gerry McCann and Operation Grange are still looking for the real 'abductor'?

Or does it mean the McCann's are so protected that they will never be brought to justice because Operation Grange is simply a farce as DCI Colin Sutton suggested when he said he "was told by someone very senior that Grange would be very narrowly focused, away from any suspicion of wrongdoing on the part of the McCanns"?

But then it's not for Operation Grange to decide, it's up to the PJ as it's their investigation.

And the PJ have done nothing about it either in the past five years.

"Too much politics" as Dr Amaral once said.

Personally I don't think it will be Smithman that solves this case, because Grange and the PJ are doing nothing about it, but something else like Peter Mac's Last Photo evidence. In which case, Smithman is irrelevant anyway because Gerry would not have been carrying a days-old corpse, although he might have been carrying a drugged Amelie in the staged abduction.  IF this case is ever allowed (by politicians on both sides) to be solved, that is.

This case isn't about Madeleine unfortunately.

It's about the 'something else' that none of us know the real reason. Whatever it is, the lid is being kept on. With all the evidence that's been around for the past eleven years that points directly at Kate and Gerry McCann, I cannot understand how any police force, even the Keystone Cops, could not have solved this case back in 2007.
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Post by Amy Dean on 16.09.18 10:07

@Phoebe wrote:@ sharonl. Maybe I see things differently to you, but to my eyes Image 1 (the less lifelike one) is the absolute spitting image of poor Gerry. I believe he had the misfortune to be seated underneath it on a chat show and the program had an influx of calls saying "You're interviewing the man in the e-fit!! I suspect image two (the "improved" version missing half the face) was created to try to distract from the extraordinary resemblance between Gerry and image 1.

I have read before that it was a spoof image. You're talking about the Crimewatch programme in 2013 but that's not what was shown there.
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Post by Phoebe on 16.09.18 14:11

Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 9k=


Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWrEN9ypfQwM1uhE-KyOLPXqvdt8kvnJSuNscI2uCVzy_a5VZ4sA

Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8J0zTXxhX2Sa63nRFtlDLen48nWJYo1MvSK45eNRQKbUtK9sf

Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvGrC79d8XDMSRQDGPN1WOjIbNTSHdanpVNby_409wKbxO7PgX

Pictures, as they say speak, louder than words.
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Post by Tony Bennett on 16.09.18 15:01

@Phoebe wrote:Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 9k=


Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWrEN9ypfQwM1uhE-KyOLPXqvdt8kvnJSuNscI2uCVzy_a5VZ4sA

Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8J0zTXxhX2Sa63nRFtlDLen48nWJYo1MvSK45eNRQKbUtK9sf

Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvGrC79d8XDMSRQDGPN1WOjIbNTSHdanpVNby_409wKbxO7PgX

Pictures, as they say speak, louder than words.
What on earth are these four pictures supposed to tell us?

What the above post tells me is how desperate the poster must be to think those photos are any sort of evidence that the Smithman 'sighting' is Gerry McCann.

To put those four pictures up, Phoebe, is no answer at all to the factual evidence Verdi, others and I have produced that Martin Smith's PRETEND identification of Gerry McCann as Smithman is impossible.

In fact, it's laughable, and shows that your blind belief in this sighting is only possible because you set aside all the mountains of evidence carefully researched and compiled here & elsewhere by people of proven calibre like Petermac, Richard Hall, Lizzy Hideho, Dr Martin Roberts, sharonl and so many other good people on here and elsewhere

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Sundance on 16.09.18 15:16

Apparently you're wrong Phoebe and you should stop being wrong please, because there's some other people who might be less wrong than you, but also might not be. That is laughable.

As an aside, I don't know if Smithman existed or not (nobody does, apart from the protagonists), but those ohotifits do look like GM
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Post by Phoebe on 16.09.18 15:16

@ Tony Bennett.  It has been claimed that the e-fits must be A) of two different men and B) look nothing like Gerry. The above four pictures are there so that people can look at them and make up their minds on this point.

Please show the EVIDENCE (not opinion or supposition) that Martin Smith 's identification of Gerry McCann as Smithman  was "PRETEND"  or "IMPOSSIBLE" .

"Martin Smith's PRETEND identification of Gerry McCann as Smithman is impossible."
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Post by Tony Bennett on 16.09.18 15:41

@Phoebe wrote:@ Tony Bennett

Please show the EVIDENCE (not opinion or supposition) that Martin Smith 's identification of Gerry McCann as Smithman  was "PRETEND"  or "IMPOSSIBLE".
Already done many times over by Verdi, others and myself, but you continue to ignore it and have never contributed a sensible answer to all the multiple problems with the Smiths' evidence.

You also seem to believe that Operation Grange would knowingly produce a propaganda show in 2013 with two efits which they realised in advance were of Gerry McCann.

If you don't think that, you must believe you have vastly superior knowledge of the case than Operation Grange.

It looks like Sundance is another CMOMM member who needs to have a much closer look at the evidence provided by brilliant & committed researchers like Lizzy Hideho, Petermac, Richard Hall, the forum-owner here, Verdi, sharonl, Dr Martin Roberts, Paulo Reis & Joana Morals, none of whom believe that Smithman = Gerry McCann.

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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Sundance on 16.09.18 15:48

It would appear that Tony Bennett is mistaken. I don't think Smithman is Gerry McCann either, but the fotofit does look like him.
And irrespective of the gaggle of luminaries you listed, they're all guessing, just like you poindexter.
As for Richard D Hall, he's a fully paid up member of the Tinfoil Hat Club.
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Post by Ladyinred on 16.09.18 15:48

@Sundance wrote:Apparently you're wrong Phoebe and you should stop being wrong please, because there's some other people who might be less wrong than you, but also might not be. That is laughable.

As an aside, I don't know if Smithman existed or not (nobody does, apart from the protagonists), but those ohotifits do look like GM
A simple question...why hasn't Gerry been arrested?
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Post by Tony Bennett on 16.09.18 16:06

@Ladyinred wrote:
@Sundance wrote:Apparently []
A simple question...why hasn't Gerry been arrested?
Because, as I said on the very day it was set up, that this (Operation Grange) would simply be an expensive charade that took us for fools.

Incidentally this was months BEFORE I managed to get the official remit out of them.

At that time, Admin and most CMOMM members here condemned me for being 'so negative' and 'distrusting the Met Police' etc etc.

Now there are very few left who fail to recognise that Grange was a con from the Get-Go, and that the Smithman efits were just the latest stage in this expensive charade which has cost c. £14 million and lasted 7 years and 4 months.

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Amelie Mcann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Phoebe on 16.09.18 16:42

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Phoebe wrote:@ Tony Bennett

Please show the EVIDENCE (not opinion or supposition) that Martin Smith 's identification of Gerry McCann as Smithman  was "PRETEND"  or "IMPOSSIBLE".
Already done many times over by Verdi, others and myself, but you continue to ignore it and have never contributed a sensible answer to all the multiple problems with the Smiths' evidence.

You also seem to believe that Operation Grange would knowingly produce a propaganda show in 2013 with two efits which they realised in advance were of Gerry McCann.

If you don't think that, you must believe you have vastly superior knowledge of the case than Operation Grange.

It looks like Sundance is another CMOMM member who needs to have a much closer look at the evidence provided by brilliant & committed researchers like Lizzy Hideho, Petermac, Richard Hall, the forum-owner here, Verdi, sharonl, Dr Martin Roberts, Paulo Reis & Joana Morals, none of whom believe that Smithman = Gerry McCann.
I have never seen EVIDENCE that Martin Smith "pretended" to identify Gerry McCann. The only evidence I have seen re. this identification of Smithman as Gerry is in the P.J. files wherein Martin Smith DOES identify Smithman as Gerry. What I have seen are opinions and theories but no factual evidence. Given that we know practically nothing about the process of how those e-fits came into existence  how can there BE any evidence!
In a post upthread you were critical of my posting of 2 pics of Gerry and the 2 e-fits. It has been claimed that neither e-fit looks like Gerry and that they couldn't possibly be of the same individual. Well then, let people look at those images and the e-fits and make up their own minds. At least pictures are visual evidence rather than proffered opinion. Then it's up to people to reach their own conclusions re. what they see.
I would be astonished if Op. Grange did not expect the e-fits to look like Gerry, given that they were based on witnesses who claimed the man they saw WAS Gerry. They would also need to be visually impaired or in denial not to notice the strong resemblance between the e-fits and Gerry.
Finally, do I believe, as you claim, that Operation Grange knowingly produced a propaganda show using the e-fits - yes I do. Operation Grange leaders are on public record stating that the McCanns are not suspects or persons of interest and that they are investigating an abduction. Given that Grange has no plans to question the parents about their child's disappearance or Smith's sighting then I do infer that Grange's remit is to protect the parents in every way and to shun anything and everything which might cast suspicion on them. (not EVIDENCE note, just my personal opinion)
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Post by willowthewisp on 16.09.18 17:12

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Phoebe wrote:@ Tony Bennett

Please show the EVIDENCE (not opinion or supposition) that Martin Smith 's identification of Gerry McCann as Smithman  was "PRETEND"  or "IMPOSSIBLE".
Already done many times over by Verdi, others and myself, but you continue to ignore it and have never contributed a sensible answer to all the multiple problems with the Smiths' evidence.

You also seem to believe that Operation Grange would knowingly produce a propaganda show in 2013 with two efits which they realised in advance were of Gerry McCann.

If you don't think that, you must believe you have vastly superior knowledge of the case than Operation Grange.

It looks like Sundance is another CMOMM member who needs to have a much closer look at the evidence provided by brilliant & committed researchers like Lizzy Hideho, Petermac, Richard Hall, the forum-owner here, Verdi, sharonl, Dr Martin Roberts, Paulo Reis & Joana Morals, none of whom believe that Smithman = Gerry McCann.
There could be a lot of "Deluded" people who may be wrong,One of the main points missed is simple.

Fact,You have a "Time Frame" wrote on the scrap book,who,what,where,when,Why, 3 May 2007?

Fact,The Smith Family met a person carrying a young girl,who was unresponsive of her surroundings(Sedated) on the evening of 3 May 2007,was this a decoy child at 22.00 PM,DCI Andy Redwood moving time frame?

Or are you saying all of the family did not see what they claimed they had seen,that evening at approx 22.00 PM?

The Person carrying the child "Chose" Not to respond to Mrs Smith asking,"Was the child a sleep",that was their choice Not to answer?

Has Mr Totman been discarded from the Operation Grange investigation,the moving time frame?
DCI Andy Redwood,sighting at 21.15 PM Jane,to E-fit Man 22.00 PM,walking a long way around to the " Night Creche",to then double back to Walk down towards the Beach,passing the Smith Family close to Kelly's Bar, 45 Minutes?

Operation Grange haven't as yet found E-fit Man?

Yet your asked to discount any facial features,due to Not being unable to recognise this person, from PJ files statements?

Yet at the same time,you are supposed to believe the E-fit images produced,that person's having drawn up have claimed is this person with Two E-fits information for One person! 
As representatives of Smith Family have stated,Crime Watch October 2013 was this deliberate,As DCi Andy Redwood has interviewed the Smith Family on that matter,but FOI from Operation Grange not conclusive who drew what up?

Did Jes Wilkens spoil original time frame plan,conversation with Gerry,that Both parties didn't see Jane,hence Robert Murats comments,"I'm just a normal guy caught up in the biggest Fuck Up on this Planet"?

Perhaps this is the "Reason" why they All refused to go back and complete a reconstruction of who was where they claimed to have been on 3 May 2007?
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Post by sharonl on 16.09.18 19:43

Also in the PJ files, Gerry was chatting with Jez Wilkins, spotted by Jane Tanner and later seen by Neil Berry and Raj Balu.

@Phoebe - Do you have a timeline from the time that Gerry was speaking to Jez, to when he was seem by Neil & Raj, to when he was running around PDL allegedly carrying Madeleine and spotted by Smith please.

Edited to include the time that Mrs Fenn claims to have spoken to Gerry

Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted.

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Post by willowthewisp on 16.09.18 20:14

@sharonl wrote:Also in the PJ files, Gerry was chatting with Jez Wilkins, spotted by Jane Tanner and later seen by Neil Berry and Raj Balu.

@Phoebe - Do you have a timeline from the time that Gerry was speaking to Jez, to when he was seem by Neil & Raj, to when he was running around PDL carrying Madeleines' corpse and spotted by Smith please.
Hi Sharon,Be careful when mentioning a "Corpse" and who was carrying what?

Nei,Raj Balu had ordered a "Takeaway" from the busy Tapas bar,Jez Wilkens spoke to Gerry outside of his apartment Stairs Gateway 21.05 PM,after taking his Son for a stroll from 20.30 PM,where he entered into the Tapas area to use the Gentleman's Facilities.

do you suppose the Robert Murat "f**k Up" is that,Jez Wilken's,Gerry were meant to have mentioned seeing Jane to collaborate Three people being seen on the same street and only One person seeing the Abductor,but Jez,Gerry state they had Never seen Jane on the Street outside Apartment 5a Ocean club?
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Post by sharonl on 16.09.18 20:26

@willowthewisp wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Also in the PJ files, Gerry was chatting with Jez Wilkins, spotted by Jane Tanner and later seen by Neil Berry and Raj Balu.

@Phoebe - Do you have a timeline from the time that Gerry was speaking to Jez, to when he was seem by Neil & Raj, to when he was running around PDL carrying Madeleines' corpse and spotted by Smith please.
Hi Sharon,Be careful when mentioning a "Corpse" and who was carrying what?

Nei,Raj Balu had ordered a "Takeaway" from the busy Tapas bar,Jez Wilkens spoke to Gerry outside of his apartment Stairs Gateway 21.05 PM,after taking his Son for a stroll from 20.30 PM,where he entered into the Tapas area to use the Gentleman's Facilities.

do you suppose the Robert Murat "fuck Up" is that,Jez Wilken's,Gerry were meant to have mentioned seeing Jane to collaborate Three people being seen on the same street and only One person seeing the Abductor,but Jez,Gerry state they had Never seen Jane on the Street outside Apartment 5a Ocean club?


HI Wilowthewisp

Just amended my original post as you suggested and also included the sighting of Gerry by Mrs Fenn.

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Post by Phoebe on 16.09.18 22:17

@ sharonl You asked Martin Smith's evidence was considered by the PJ to be 'highly contradictory...this type of witness does not deserve credibility" 24 Horas, 7.7.2008  - Page 2 New_cm11@Phoebe - Do you have a timeline from the time that Gerry was speaking to Jez, to when he was seem by Neil & Raj, to when he was running around PDL allegedly carrying Madeleine and spotted by Smith please."


Now that is indeed a very interesting question! Firstly, let me repeat what I have said before - I do not believe a word of the description of events nor the timeline given that night.


The Tapas 9's story is that Gerry and Kate were first to arrive at the Tapas bar with the others joining them gradually afterward, the Payne group being the last to arrive near 9 p.m. Yet this is contradicted by Stephen Carpenter who claimed -


 "At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table..."



So, was it Gerry and Kate alone at half eight and the rest, including the Paynes just before 9 p.m. or were they all in situ as Carpenter claims by 8.30 p.m.


Raj Balu in his statement makes no mention of seeing Gerry or his group at the Tapas Bar that night, claiming to have left with the takeaway between 8.15 and 8.30 p.m.
Neil Berry claims to have gone with Raj Balu to collect the takeaway at "about 8 p.m. and states -
"I remember that at dinner that the McCanns were not at the restaurant at the time that we left and we did not see them while Raj and I were there."



Jeremy Wilkins states (7th May 2007) that he left with his child in the buggy at "About 8.15- 8.30 p.m." He mentions meeting Gerry but does not say when this happened.
In his statement of (5th Nov.2007) he again mentions leaving with the buggy at 8.15 p.m. walking around, using the Tapas Bar lavatory (but he doesn't know what time this was) and meeting Gerry. He again gives no time for this meeting in this statement, but claims not to have seen Jane T. or Tannerman.
In Wilkins 3rd statement (8th April 2008) he states the following -
"I calculate I met Gerry on the road between 20.45 and 9.15 (half an hour's time-span) I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21.05 p.m. Even if this were correct I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time".

So. Wilkins is of little help in pinning down that part of the timeline.

After his meeting with Wilkins we have only the Tapas 9's word for where Gerry was. There were no other diners and the statements of the Ocean Club staff are contradictory, with some claiming the group, save Diane Webster, had left much earlier with Arlindo Peleja stating that shortly after arriving at 9.10 pm he noted, upon entering the Tapas area only "3 couples" seated at the sole-occupied table and that by "9.20 p.m." there was a clamour and he was "informed that child had disappeared"

So it is obvious that there is no clear picture of where any of the Tapas 9 group was during dinner.

Mrs. Fenn claimed to have heard the disturbance at around 10.30 p.m.

Whether Gerry was the person the Smiths saw I do not know, but it appears there is no reliable timeline for him or any of the group that night!
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Post by sharonl on 16.09.18 22:56

@Phoebe

I think you may be referring to the rogatory statements when you say that Balu makes no reference to seeing Gerry that night.

From an interview contained in the PJ files we have this:

After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony.

There was a statement made on 6th May 2007 which may have given much more detail of the period after 10pm, but I cannot locate that statement at present.


Also from the PJ Files: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm

Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

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Post by willowthewisp on 16.09.18 23:26

Hi Phoebe,
Gerry 21.05 PM checks on his Beautiful daughter?

Jane sent by Kate to check where Gerry is,supposed to be on toilet,or watching TV Football,while your kids are trying to sleep?

21.10 PM,Jez,Gerry conversation,didn't spot Jane,but Jane spots them+Abductor?

21.30 PM, Mathew does an Hearing Check? He sees Twins breathing through a Door he is stood behind,cannot confirm Madeleine was in Bed nearest to the Bedroom door he had opened?

i have read that the Smith Family had initially stated their time of sighting around 21.45-21.50 PM.

Kate checks apartment at 22.00 PM with No sign of Madeleine,then alerts Tapas table Group,Gerry? David,Fiona,Diane W.Mathew,Rachel,Jane,Russell with his sick child!

The Portugal PJ theory they worked out was that Jane's sighting puts the alleged Abductor heading in a Easterly direction 21.15 PM,whilst the Smith family sighting is in a West position going towards the Beach Area 21.50-22.00 PM,opposite to one another?

So here we have Two children confirmed by statements of at least Two Males taking their children back home,one(Jez) in a push chair with a Boy going East,One girl(E-fit)  "Night Creche,East," being carried,West towards the Beach?

Mrs Carpenter alerts staff at the Night Creche of a girl gone missing whilst picking up her son at 22.00 PM.

DCI Andy Redwoods "Moving Forward Time period",E-fits Smith man Totman sighting?

The Tapas Group are the "Main Witnesses" as to where Gerry was in the final 90 minutes from when Tapas meal began?

One person cannot be in Two different places at one Time,therefore it is vital that people account for where they were,Simon Foy moment,Richard Bilton Panorama,Tapas Bar?

If Jez Wilkens conversation with Gerry had spoiled plan,was this the Robert Murat,quote,"Biggest Fuck Up",as All Three could account for one another,but Jez,Gerry claim Not to have seen Jane,but Jane sees them?

Therefore,the second Run without Jez,where the Smiths see a man carrying a child 21.50-22.00 PM?

I'll get my Coat,thesis,time frames?
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Post by lemonbutter on 17.09.18 1:45

#36

 Part of Tony Bennett's response to Phoebe's comments:


"Already done many times over by Verdi, others and myself, but you continue to ignore it and have never contributed a sensible answer to all the multiple problems with the Smiths' evidence."

@ Tony Bennett


To quote your own words:

"Unbelievable! Surely one of the daftest statements ever made in the near 9-year life of COMM".

I for one admire your valuable contributions Phoebe.
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Post by Phoebe on 17.09.18 1:52

@ sharonl Yes Sharon, I have read that part of Raj Balu's statement 

"After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches. I cannot add any more details save those which have already been given in this testimony" 


However I am completely unable to find any statement wherein he claims to have seen or spoken to Gerry at 10 p.m. I would be grateful if you could post the relevant section form the P.J files where Balu says he saw and spoke to Gerry.
I have looked at the " PJ Files: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm"
 but what I found was this -


Summary

It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate. 

The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search


However, there is no TIME given for when Gerry was seen and spoken to by Balu and Berry.  It could have been 10 pm, 10.10 pm 10.15 p.m or anytime. Indeed the report points out that 
"It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing....The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint. Why would they conclude this if they knew Gerry had been seen and spoken to at 10p.m. by two witnesses.
Can you post Balu's statement that it was at 10 p.m.   thumbsup
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