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Did Maddy even go to bed that night? Mm11

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Did Maddy even go to bed that night?

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Post by willbo88 on 06.08.18 21:30

Hello all :)

I think people focus too much on the 'golden hours' and the investigation that followed. Which were clearly botched, but something tells me if the FBI and MI5 joined forces that very night we would still be in the same place we are now...

My Theory.
Madeleine never went 'to bed' that night.

She had dissapeared within the hours of 17.25 (the reasonably strong kids club checkout evidence) and the arrival at the restaurant with the Tapas 7 (20.30, verified by CCTV)

After 20.30 the McCanns were essentially waiting to 'find Madeleine missing' which was simply upto them and how they wanted to stage it. No other adult would have entered that apartment until possibly house keeping the following day. There wasnt much pressure.
By the time they got to the restaurant Maddy had been removed by one, or both, of the McCanns from the resort entirely. They had a 3 hour window.
Murdered, accident, abduction i dont know. But she left the resort and was never seen again, so they did a thorough job.

The strange 'lets all leave our kids at home but leave the table one by one to check on them at 20-30 mins intervals' was highly bizarre, an odd meal to be apart of for sure. Either way what then follows is essentially a weak attempt at staging a break-in. They had two 5 min sessions in the apartment to stage something and gear up to the hysterical 'oh my GOD! Maddys gone!'....

People say what about the Oldfield sighting. But so what? Yes he suggested he check on apartment 5A on his return from his own villa, and he supposedly did, but that works fine for the McCanns.
If Oldfield finds Maddy gone its even better. They are not trying to hide anything at this point, infact the opposite, they need someone to find Maddy missing from her bed. 
He dosnt look into the room far enough so Kate has to do the business later on. If Oldfield found her missing that takes heat of the parents and we know Gerry was seen chatting to his tennis coach after he visited the apartment 1st so would have had a job on his hands doing the abduction and hiding the body in that 10 min window between visiting 5A and chatting to the tennis coach.

But, as i said, she was never in the apartment. The McCanns are simply making sure they are seen to do what looks normal. 
Id imagine those minutes where the McCans sat on the end of Maddys empty bed were really rather powerful soul searching moments for them. As they are in too deep now and couldnt back out even if they had wanted to.

Kate takes the plunge 30 mins after Gerry, enters the apartment, knows Maddys been gone hours so now just needs a little courage and a final stage piece. She slides the window open and raises the shutter ( not thinking about how awkward an entrance that would be for someone and how much forensic evidence it would attract from an intruder). Probably takes a deep breath, realizes that this hysterical return to the Tapas 7 needs to be given everything shes got...and off she goes.

The next month is spent trying to investigate an abduction and break in that never happened. I can see how 10 years later, in reality, there is nothing but theories and speculation. 

When we really step back and think objectively, could you imagine a man/woman unlocking the outside shutter, sliding the window open, hoisting themselves up and jumping inside onto the bed, stepping down into the room, walking over to Maddy and picking her up in his arms before climbing back out, this time with only the use of one arm and carrying a 4 year old...whilst not waking any of the children and vanishing into thin air in a developed European country in 2007...
Im certain they are implicated and something is just waiting to be uncovered!
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Post by Verdi on 06.08.18 21:43

welcome to CMoMM willbo88 and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I hope you enjoy being a member of probably one of the finest, if not the finest,  venues focusing on the mystery of Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

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Post by Hobs on 07.08.18 3:16

The problem is this.

The photos of the bed Maddie was allegedly  sleeping in and the bedroom she was alleged to be sleeping in show something telling.

The bed Maddie was in, was identified by the pulled back tidily corner of the cover and the perfectly placed pink blanket, cuddlecat and the unmarked pillow.
This is where Maddie allegedly slept before she was allegedly abducted,
Now, the bed under the window has a rumpled cover and pillow, clearly indicating that someone slept in that bed or at least made it look like the bed had been slept in.
A stark contrast to Maddie's alleged bed.

Given the state of said beds, why did the mccanns not claim that Maddie slept in the bed under the window?
It looked slept in.
It was directly under the window allowing easy access perhaps to said abductor.

Why claim what looked clearly unslept in as Maddie's bed as opposed to the one that looked slept in?

It could also explain why there was no DNA on Maddie's alleged pillow, sheets or cover since it was not her bed.
Was the bed that looked slept in tested for Maddie's DNA even if it was perhaps only a few hairs given she allegedly slept in that room for a week and more than likely would have jumped on the bed to look out the window or lay down on it as toddlers are wont to do.

Why did they have to go all the way to rothley towers to get something with Maddie's DNA when her clothing, worn during the week, shoes etc would and should have been chockablock full of her DNA.
There should have been her DNA all over the apartment as well as that of the twins.
They should have been able to get her DNA from the hairbrush as they would have been able to discount the parents and the twins hairs with what was left coming from Maddie.
There should also have been her DNA on towels, face cloths as well as things she had touched, even the toilet could have provided some.
The one place there should not have been her DNA would be the hire car hired weeks after she vanished.
There should not have been her DNA in fluids found in the hire car or in body fluids in the apartment.

I would be interested to know if the hairs found showed any indication of corpse banding as that would be very difficult to explain away.
Kate allegedly having come into contact with corpses (according to her family) then explaining away the hairs with corpse banding as transference from when she touched said corpses.

What couldn't be explained away was if said hairs showed a familial link to the mccanns IE 15/19 markers with 4 too degraded to compare.
Couldn't be claimed to be from someone in the family who had access to the hire car  since they would need to be dead and zombies are few and far between.
The only possible conclusion would be that it was from a dead Maddie and how could she have gotten into the hire car hired by the mccanns?

There is a reason the mccanns chose the bed they did claiming Maddie slept in it and was abducted from it.
They had to divert attention and investigation from the slept in bed.

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Post by Jonal on 07.08.18 13:57

Hello willbo88 :)

It's evident you have spent time studying the case. Why do you think the British government got involved?

As to your theory, you know the consensus here is that Madeleine did not die in the apartment on Thursday night? If you - and the PJ of course - think she did, I'm ready to be convinced but on stronger evidence than the not only NOT "reasonably strong" but demonstrably weak creche records! As well, it would clear up many things if the Tapas had CCTV. Are you mixing it up with the Paraiso?

I think you describe the staged reaction well.

Your last paragraph illustrates how absurd the abductor-through-the-window theory is - don't forget the fiend needed time to use his portable sedation kit. KM had several years to ponder this scenario before offering in her book that the open window was "to throw investigators off the scent". Indeed.  

@Hobs

I have many doubts about the apartment sleeping regime, starting with the cleaning lady saying there was a cot in the other room. Among the over-explanations in madeleine KM tells us:


"... we decided to put the three children in the front bedroom, knowing they’d only be using their room to sleep in ... We removed the cots and shoved the twin beds together. In the other room, we pushed the beds further apart, positioning each against a wall, to make room for the cots, which we placed in between them."


Well, I'm convinced.

Another reason for choosing the other bed could be to allow for the hapless Matt Oldfield not to have seen her, all the way in the corner there in the dark, despite his laser observation of breathing twins, once they had worked out when she was supposed to be gone. Putting himself as the last person to see her alive may have given pause for thought as per the sticker book timelines.

The whole palaver with DNA samples defies reason, and I recall there is even doubt as to exactly how GM collected the samples at "rothley towers" (lol)
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Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 15:32

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? Article-2617458-022B288F00000578-822_634x523

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Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 15:36

David Payne rogatory interview - 11th April 2008

1485 "How many times do you think you actually went into the MCCANN'S apartment''

00:20:33 Reply "Err probably more than other people as I said there was the, there was one, there was the incident with the cot where were trying to, you know, had some difficulty with one of the cots that had been provided to err you know so and they'd got the spare cot that you know so I had to go down and pick that up and then I, I popped in there you know some other times as well, I say I probably, in total during the week, I'd have said five, half a dozen times I'd been to that apartment.

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Post by willowthewisp on 07.08.18 16:37

@Verdi wrote:Did Maddy even go to bed that night? Article-2617458-022B288F00000578-822_634x523
Wow,look at those "Jemmied Shutters"?
Hey,Mathew,look how far the door could go back,seeing the "Twins Breathing" behind the open door?
The "Three" bungling Portugal burglars,from me to you to you,whoosh,which way robbin,up past Murats for good measure,where JT can spot us crossing the road, Shit we forgot the pink blanket,we'll get it later?
Operation Grange Remit-Abduction,can't thank you enough,your favourite couple?

Yeah I know, Sarcasm,the lowest form of wit,but ask yourself,what the Taps 7/9 wouldn't take part in and the "Pact Of silence" ah Doctor Payne, its Nobody else's business, not even Madeleine's!
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Post by HiDeHo on 07.08.18 17:02

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? Not_in10
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Post by willbo88 on 07.08.18 18:27

thanks everyone for your input.

As for the beds, i think its fair to say it would make sense to place the twins in the middle/further side of the room and not have Maddy walking between them to get to her bed.

The bed does look a mess under the window but i think 3 young children on holiday would have been climbing/jumping on there at somepoint in the days before. Who knows. 

To be clear, im not saying Maddy died in the apartment. Im saying she did not go to bed that night as the McCanns describe. Although i have spent many hours on trains and in the shower trying to establish when where she went and why, i have little to go by.

The PJ are often ridiculed, but they were the ones that had the freshest and most real experience of talking to the people we only know by name. Looking into their eyes, hearing them talk and listening to them bumble around their timelines and strange movements around the resort.
It really all comes down to just how calculated the McCanns were. They dont do PR well at all, they look guilty as hell but have also managed to make a perpetrator and victim vanish into thin air for 11 year and counting. 
She was removed from the complex in and around 7pm i think.
Was she alive or dead when she left the complex? or injured infact? That i dont know.
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Post by Cookiecat on 07.08.18 18:48

The pillow has no imprint .. the blankets have no curls that bed was not sleept in .. if Maddie was in creche where are her trophey du jours? Its standard entertainment they colour and paint .. odd creche that never had kids colouring in or drawing .. but that would leave dna and prove she was there .. whats the deal with the fourth messy bed ? Is that the one Kate slept on apparently after row regarding quizz? Was it examined?
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Post by willbo88 on 07.08.18 19:00

i think when you start questioning Maddy not being at the creche at all it opens up another world of possibility.
We then have forgery by someone on the register.
We then have a very extended timeframe, where the McCanns are holidaying with a group of freinds and one of their children is, if you can think of another alibi a 4 year old can have? 'sleeping back at the apartment as shes is tired'....'thats odd, its 2pm....

If like me me you think she never went to bed then we have many hours where the McCanns are hiding a body. Whislt playing tennis and eating Tapas. 
I suppose i could ask, and im sure someone here knows, what is the credible, most definite and believed last sighting of Maddy? Other than from the McCanns?

Im thinking back to my early childhood, where we went to Vale Do Lobo in the Algarve frequnetly! how long a period i was ever away from my parents in full sight. In reality, maybe 30 mins max whislt me and my cousins went off playing in the garden....
Could the McCanns holiday in a resort without one child for more than half a day...?
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Post by Cookiecat on 07.08.18 19:12

Check out Hideho posts re creche !!



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Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 21:41

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? 09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2312

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Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 21:43

@HiDeHo wrote:Did Maddy even go to bed that night? Not_in10
That ^^^ is not a crime scene photograph HiDeHo.  This is ..

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? 09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316

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Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 21:45

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? 01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_15_small1

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Post by Verdi on 07.08.18 21:46

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? 01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_16_small1

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Post by Cookiecat on 07.08.18 22:59

Clearly imo that bed was not slept in ... creches as standard do coloring in- parents often stick on fridge .. nothing of Maddie bar apparent high teas and icecreams yet no photos of these proud monents .. just imo .. Gerry apparently threw out fridge ...very kind as not his fridge and on holiday.. really would drawing be on it ??? When he didn't have credit cards that booked flights....opps how pay for taxi with cash or cards ?Oh he is GM .. ... rental car .in Portugal.. .. simple where is daughters drawings .. stuck on fridge ?? I work in hospice and former child care .. all kiddies drew .. whether encouraged or not ie crayons on wall or did Maddie not have access to being child.. very odd ..why can't we find fridge?? Where are her scribbles ??As a doctor he knows nappies off meat don't smell like death .. as a human I can tell you different smell, sad and in hospice never had part time on maternity leave doctor deal with 6 deceased.Its crazy but I do think missing simple fact where is child's doodles or other children's doodles has anyone checked? They can tell a lot.
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Post by Cookiecat on 07.08.18 23:31

Ps it is really hard to navigate site on android
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Post by joyce1938 on 07.08.18 23:35

The fridge was taken out and the macs I think bought another to replace it ,or had it payed for ,not certain about the payment .joyce1938
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Post by Cookiecat on 08.08.18 0:05

6 deceased.Its crazy but I do think missing simple fact where is child's doodles or other children's doodles has anyone checked? They can tell a lot
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Post by Verdi on 08.08.18 0:21

@Jonal wrote:I have many doubts about the apartment sleeping regime, starting with the cleaning lady saying there was a cot in the other room.
Shouldn't put too much emphasis on the witness statements of the bit players in this saga.  They were not taken verbatim so are easily open to misinterpretation.

By way of example, if you look at the original PJ documented witness statement of the cleaner, you will see there is a paragraph break between the reference to Wednesday (quarta-feira) and the reference to the cribs (cots).  In the online translation the two paragraphs are merged into one which could incite an incorrect interpretation.   It's possible, considering the nature of the questions posed, that the two are not related.

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? 02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_393

Consider also, the cleaner's daughters witness statement who claims to have seen the McCann family leaving their apartment around lunch time on Sunday 29th April which doesn't accord with the documented working times/locations of the witnesses.

Consider also, the cleaner in question sold her story to the media at a later date..

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t15159p25-joana-morais#389252

There could easily be a misunderstanding here.  As I've said before, cleaning at a holiday complex is a menial task with a minimum wage - don't expect their recall to be impeccable.

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Post by HiDeHo on 08.08.18 4:06

@Verdi wrote:
@Jonal wrote:I have many doubts about the apartment sleeping regime, starting with the cleaning lady saying there was a cot in the other room.
Shouldn't put too much emphasis on the witness statements of the bit players in this saga.  They were not taken verbatim so are easily open to misinterpretation.

By way of example, if you look at the original PJ documented witness statement of the cleaner, you will see there is a paragraph break between the reference to Wednesday (quarta-feira) and the reference to the cribs (cots).  In the online translation the two paragraphs are merged into one which could incite an incorrect interpretation.   It's possible, considering the nature of the questions posed, that the two are not related.

Did Maddy even go to bed that night? 02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_393

Consider also, the cleaner's daughters witness statement who claims to have seen the McCann family leaving their apartment around lunch time on Sunday 29th April which doesn't accord with the documented working times/locations of the witnesses.

Consider also, the cleaner in question sold her story to the media at a later date..

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t15159p25-joana-morais#389252

There could easily be a misunderstanding here.  As I've said before, cleaning at a holiday complex is a menial task with a minimum wage - don't expect their recall to be impeccable.


Verdi, I agree it is important to view the witness statements as having possible memory issues or possible translation issues, but I do not agree they should be 'minimised' to the point of not being important...

Regarding the cot issue...as I have posted before, unless I have misunderstood you, this graphic shows that the cot 'issue' WAS important to the PJ, and it doesn't appear that the statement has been mistranslated.

It's up to individuals to decide what info they glean from witness statements and important that they decide for themselves whether they feel the statements have any value or not.

I am confused by your comment
@Verdi wrote:'Consider also, the cleaner's daughters witness statement who claims to have seen the McCann family leaving their apartment around lunch time on Sunday 29th April which doesn't accord with the documented working times/locations of the witnesses.'



Can you explain what you found incorrect about the documented working times/locations of this witness?


Sold her story?  

The full program was about Praia da Luz and the Ocean Club etc.






@verdi wrote:'As I've said before, cleaning at a holiday complex is a menial task with a minimum wage - don't expect their recall to be impeccable.'

I am really uncomfortable with a remark that suggest that because a cleaners job is menial with low wages that it should be insinuated their witness statement is not as much value as others.

Witness statements from those not 'involved' ARE of value and whether any of us have personal thoughts that believe otherwise I am very troubled to see those  those suggestions added to public posts.

I respect ALL witness statements from those not involved
and it's up to the individual to decide whether they feel all aspects are credible or possibly mistranslated. (We have seen VERY few errors in the translations, after 10 years of scrutiny, by the AMAZING translators from Maddie Case Files.)

I look forward to the incorrect times/locations of Fatima's statement.



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Post by ferrotty on 08.08.18 9:16

Can someone enlighten me as to what those red pointing markers are eluding to on the bed and floor.
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Post by willbo88 on 08.08.18 9:30

I agree with HiDeHo, I think the witness statements from outsider parties such as cleaners and waiters are so hard to put any real emphasis on.
I used to work in a hotel. Do you really note the times you do everything, whilst rushing around with 100 guests/strangers passing by you each day? Can you genuinely pick out one guests child and be sure its not another Caucasian blonde girl who was staying also ect?
I think the witness statements are rough memories at best. With estimated times, and possible errors from room to room, day to day, guest to guest.
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Post by willbo88 on 08.08.18 9:42

possible play out of the evening.

Kate brings Maddy home around 5.45. An accident/argument happens. Maddy is unconscious or even possibly killed tragically.
Gerry returns around home 19.15 to find K distraught, Maddy unconscious/dead behind the sofa perhaps??
In a 30 minute nightmare of a discussion and panicked moment K and G decide that they will be guilty, lose their other two children and spend at least 10 years in jail....so they go for it.
One looks to steady the ship/clean the blood ect.
the other removes Maddy from the apartment, and hides her nearby or even further out. Thats a 10-20 min drive at most. 
As we know the area is hidden body paradise for its isolation. 
they return for the late 20.40 meal and as i stated in my original post essentially went down a 'missing child' route, which is really all you can do. The planning of that is minimal, infact the only thing they had to stage was the shutter being open....
Did they go back and move Maddy weeks later as the Dogs seemed to think? Possibly...take her from a good hiding place to the one where she is now to this day even.
That all seems to me like a real life accident and the way a couple would react.
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