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Post by Tony Bennett 10.10.10 13:46

Stella wrote:Hi Tony

Yes I am the Stella by Starlight that you remember. I chose my avatar to represent this, Stella Meredith from the film The Uninvited, running away from that haunted house. A bit like how I feel right now...
It's getting quite like an 'old friends' reunion' on here these days.

And of course, what do old friends do when they get together?

Reminisce about good old times, of course!

So...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ann _chovey, it's funny you should say that. Up until recently I also felt that a body must have at some point been hidden begind that sofa, as I could not buy the falling off the sofa leading to death theory. But have you ever lifted up a curtain and noticed how the hem get's really grubby compared to the rest of the curtain. Why because it is making direct contact with a dirty floor. So using the same process that the floor had the blood on it and the curtain like a sponge has soaked it up, means that blood has spilt on the floor in very close proximity to where the curtain hangs. This brought me right back to my recent theory, a curtain tie back or a shutter cord could have strangled her and she must have bled out on the spot. Primavera, yes there is always that posibility. But each time I think about that option I always come back to timing. After the heated moment why would she have been left there on the spot? I think she would have been moved instantly and therefore not enough time for the scent of cadaver to get there.

I think Goncalo is right, it happened on that spot and the body was there for quite a while, sadly. Yes, Stella, I think the body must have been there for some time. Another scenario could be child climbing on the sofa to see out of the window, pulls the curtain over and up, falls behind the sofa and is not found for quite some time, there being no real checks.

Or, child running around, leaps on sofa, gets an angry slap, falls behind, person who gave the slap picks the child up, gets covered in blood, goes to have a shower, someone comes to the door, sofa is pushed back to hide the child's body.

A simple accident theory - Madeleine like a lot of children was using the sofa as a trampoline and as nobody was there supervising her she fell off the sofa, fell onto the hard floor, cracked her skull and died having intially got up and then fallen down again.

It is only a theory, along with others. But I have watched my kids use the sofa as a trampoline and god knows if I hadnt been there, they would have been off.

StellabyStarlight - Not sure but it looks as if the sofa was moved against the window from these photos and there could have been room for the sofa to have been further forward allowing for her to have fallen. The sofa also looks like the squidgy type that kids love jumping up and down on.

paperback, I just had another thought. Taking into consideration Madeleine's height and weight with the back of the sofa being quite high, it would have acted as a guard preventing her from going over the back. If she had fallen off, surely it would have been to the front of the sofa or the sides?

Another thing I just noticed from the pictures you supplied is the location of the curtains, they are almost parallel with the back of the sofa, but the edges stick out either side. This could mean that the final resting place was to the side of the sofa?

I would love to know which curtain it was, was it the left or the right hand one? If it was an accident that happened while they were out AND if they weren't checking at half-hourly intervals, then Madeleine's body could have been cold by the time they found it, so what would they do? If they admit they weren't checking regularly and their daughter is now dead wouldn't this be enough for them to be charged with neglect and facing a stiff penalty? Might they not have thought this was too high a price to pay, plus the twins could end up paying the price too if the parents were given a custodial sentence?

OTOH, if someone slapped Madeleine and caused a fatal fall, why wouldn't they immediately call for help? They could simply say she fell while they'd gone to the loo or something. Plus any bruising could be most likely accounted for by the fall itself.

I tend towards the first theory, because it seems to me to fit betterFor blood to soak up on the hem of that curtain, whatever happened, it must have been horific.

When I was younger my bare foot went through a glass door, heel first. Due to the amount of broken glass everywhere, my Mother rather than wrap my foot up and take me to hospital called for an ambulance. In no time at all my foot was surrounded in a pool of blood 18-20 inches across by the time the ambulance arrived. Had there been glass in my foot my Mother could have done more damage. Had I severed an artery who knows what would have happened. All I know is the rate at which the blood spread across the floor was quite scary. It did not touch anything, but if something had been near it would have been completely smothered.

This is why I think blood on the hem of the curtain is very significant. I think Madeleine died instantly from some sort of head injury, most likely from a very hard slap/punch, from Kate, in a fit of rage. She may have been put to bed holding cuddle cat, to make her appear to be asleep. Then removed and placed facing the wall and on her side hidden behind the sofa, where a small amount of blood/fluid from possibly her nose or mouth seeped onto the floor and curtain. Her bed linen and plastic bed sheet (plastic bed protection sheets for children are often used in hotels and holiday accommodation) were changed and the bed remade to look 'slep in'. I believe the child remained there until being removed via a large sports bag, her body wrapped in the plastic bed sheet. The area behind the sofa was most likely cleaned soon after removing the body. The bed linen may have been placed in a cupboard for a short time before being disposed off. I believe signs of sedation on regular bases would have shown up in an autopsy, aswell as the cause of her death had the child's body been found.

Time of death approximately 5pm May 3rd, body removed from 5a between 8 and 9pm May 3rd to a tempory hidding place. IMO.

What about the blood under the tile though? The tile was more to the middle of the room , not near the sofa, so I think possibly injury elsewhere and put behind the sofa away from twins, visitors. Maybe the curtains weren't washed but "sponged".....translation issue.

The sofa could well have been a sofa -bed, they often are , but not sure if that has any bearing.

Exactly Stella by Starlight. Why should she have been left there ble*ding and dying after someone hit her in anger. The other alternative that someone hid her body there is not logical either because of the blood and that the dining room is much to puplic with two doors leading in to it (patio door and front door). The alternative left is an accident and the sad fact that she was there long enough for death scent to develop. Grime said in the 5A apartment video that when Keela indicates blood there is always blood there (with a sad shrug of his shoulders).

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I think Eddie is a dead body dog, so it's not just cadaverine.

The curtains (286A/2007- CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain 286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.

Vol 10 PDF 164

And is it not strange that no Maddie's DNA was found in that apartment? And that they had to go to the UK to fetch one of her pillows?

British Police experts report: Kate McCann has something to hide

A group of experts from Bramshill Police College in Basingstoke, Hants, prepared a report to Portuguese CID inspectors in charge of the investigation, after analysing all available TV interviews of Kate McCann. According to “The People.co.uk”, “it is believed the report concludes that Kate's body language and facial expressions in interviews show she has something to hide.”
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Post by Judge Mental 10.10.10 15:38

hi Stella.

There is lots to see and do here.
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Post by Guest 11.10.10 9:06

Tony,

Today is a very hectic day for me today, as I've got physio this morning and I'm at the pain clinic this afternoon, so my posts for today anyway will be a bit slap dash !!

Wow, you kept my post from way, way back Shocked

I guess that must have been back when the first lot of translations were posted up? The only thing I am scratching my head over, is that "no blood was found on the curtain". I seem to remember that there is a document somewhere where it said that it was. Cushty was trying very hard to convince me that it was not, so I will have a look round today or tomorrow for it. It's been a long time since I visited the forensics side, so will have to dust off all the old cobwebs.

A lot has changed since my views on the above. I no longer think that any of the children were left on their own at night, so how did the blood come about in 5a? Up until a couple of months ago I always believed that Madeleine died on the 3rd, but not any longer. There is quite a few things now that convinces me otherwise. Take a real close look at the Lobster's creche records, especially the times Madeleine is signed in and out. What you will see is another child very frequently being signed in and out at the same time. Take a closer look at the handwriting and see how similar certain letters are? Pay particular attention to the name of the other child, then look at the guest lists and you will see two seperate bookings in that name. One through MW, the other is a privately owned apartment in the same name and there is no name of the person staying in it. Are they related or known to each other? Does Gerry know this person? When I get the time, I will post up the apartment numbers and names for easy reference.

Are there existing threads for creche and guests lists? Where is the best place to discuss this, or should I start a new topic? Do let me know?
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Post by Jill Havern 11.10.10 9:17

Hi Stella and welcome hi

I'll split this topic and make it into a thread of it's own and put it in the McCann Case forum. Hang on a mo and I'll sort it out.... thumbsup

Let me know what title you want for this thread and I'll change that too.

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Post by Guest 11.10.10 10:41

Hi jkh and thanks for allowing me here roses

My physio is arriving at the house at 11.00, so I have about 10-15 minutes. I was thinking overnight what would be the best way to do this. We have the guest lists, the tapas lists and the creche lists. If you pop them altogether in the one thread, it will become very confusing, but at different times they connect. So I'm not really sure. Is there something like a few threads within a main thread, that will make it easier to swap between the main subjects, plus a discussion one?? I'm not technical minded, so not sure if that's possible. But what we need is a seperate place to show all the room numbers and there locations, then another for all the creche sheets as big as possible and another for the tapas sheets.

All I know is, when this came to light on another forum recently, all hell let loose. shhhh

I'm having trouble navigating my way around at the moment and keep loosing where I am laugh but all in good time eh !!
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Post by kangdang 11.10.10 21:23

:yahoo: Stella here's, greetings Stella

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Post by Tony Bennett 11.10.10 21:51

Stella wrote:Tony, Today is a very hectic day for me today...

The only thing I am scratching my head over, is that 'no blood was found on the curtain'. I seem to remember that there is a document somewhere where it said that it was.

REPLY: So do I, but I cannot trace it either at the moment. I am interested in two things: (a) any document which says that there was blood found on the curtains (b) any document which confirms (or denies) that those curtains were washed that week. I would also be grateful for any links to 'blood spatters on the walls' and as to whether we know what the forensic results were on any such blood spots.

Cushty was trying very hard to convince me that it was not, so I will have a look round today or tomorrow for it. It's been a long time since I visited the forensics side, so will have to dust off all the old cobwebs.

A lot has changed since my views on the above. I no longer think that any of the children were left on their own at night...

REPLY: One possibility canvassed is that they were all looked after each night in just one apartment by just one adult carer. I don't think there is any backing for this suggestion though.

...in one so how did the blood come about in 5a?

REPLY: If it was Madeleine's blood (under the tiles), and we have to accept that the forensics don't prove that it was, then as I'm sure you are aware there are three or four possibilities for how it got there.

Up until a couple of months ago I always believed that Madeleine died on the 3rd, but not any longer. There are quite a few things now that convince me otherwise.

REPLY: The number of flat contradictions between the statements of the McCanns and the 'Tapas 9' concerning the events of 3 May are enough in many people's minds to suggest that they are not telling the truth about what happened that day.

Take a real close look at the Lobster's creche records, especially the times Madeleine is signed in and out. What you will see is another child very frequently being signed in and out at the same time. Take a closer look at the handwriting and see how similar certain letters are? Pay particular attention to the name of the other child, then look at the guest lists and you will see two seperate bookings in that name. One through MW, the other is a privately owned apartment in the same name and there is no name of the person staying in it. Are they related or known to each other? Does Gerry know this person? When I get the time, I will post up the apartment numbers and names for easy reference.

REPLY: This would be something I have never seen fully analysed, tho' I do hold some material from the old 'Creche Records' thread on 3As.

Are there existing threads for creche and guests lists? Where is the best place to discuss this, or should I start a new topic? Do let me know?

We have the guest lists, the tapas lists and the creche lists. If you pop them altogether in the one thread, it will become very confusing, but at different times they connect. So I'm not really sure. Is there something like a few threads within a main thread, that will make it easier to swap between the main subjects, plus a discussion one?? I'm not technical minded, so not sure if that's possible. But what we need is a seperate place to show all the room numbers and their locations, then another for all the creche sheets as big as possible and another for the tapas sheets.

REPLY: You wrote: "If you pop them altogether in the one thread, it will become very confusing, but at different times they connect". I tend to disagree. The very fact that they 'connect' justifies one thread IMO. The theme of what you are suggesting is: there are lines of evidence that point to Madeleine not being alive earlier than 3 May. I hope you will be able to share your fascinating evidence with us and we can discuss it all on one thread.

This forum is not yet a place where there is lots of intensive research and analysis on a great range of topics. It is however a friendly and largely disruption-free environment for some good discussion on Madeleine and related subjects, and it is developing. I am sure if you lead us into new research areas you will get good quality forum members constructively discussing your ideas and research.
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Post by Autumn 11.10.10 22:34


HiDeHo's Website has a lot of information about the Creche Records/Timelines aswell as detailed analysis of staff statements - well worth having a look at

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Post by littlepixie 11.10.10 22:48

I agree that the signing in signatures are very similar. Certain letters are identical.
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Post by Guest 11.10.10 23:23

[quote stella]

A lot has changed since my views on the above. I no longer think that any of the children were left on their own at night

I used to think this as well, stella, thinking the leaving them alone offered an opportunity for abduction, when in reality one of the group was babysitting. However, since the files were made public, and on reading the rogatory statements, it makes me ponder as to why the kids were if as believed by many sedated if there was someone with them? We even had GM mentioning this in the Panorama programme. We know that KM was really concerned about Sean and Amelie, and kept putting her finger under their nose to see if they were still breathing, and they didn't wake with all that noise going on when Madeleine went missing. So taking that into account, I now believe that they were left alone.

The other point about the creche records is that they are very confusing. They do need a lot of disecting and digging into, as do the phone calls. But, (correct me if I'm wrong) if you are saying there was a "subsitiute" Madeleine, I really can't see how it could be possible. The nanny's would have been with this substitute for many hours and could have believed her to be Madeleine, However, when all the photo's of the real Madeleine were released, they would have realised immediately they were not the same person they had in their creche. No two children can look that alike as to confuse nanny's that have such close contact. I feel, they would have contacted the police, because why would they be involved in this, they have no reason, and to my mind that would make far too many people in on this theory, which in itself would be nigh on impossible for so many people to be in on it.
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Post by littlepixie 12.10.10 0:08

I know of a person who has a job as a chaperon to people with learning difficulties. They accompany them in a vehicle and drop them off. One to One. Recently they accompanied someone in a taxi - dropped them off then at pick-up time wheeled them back into the vehicle and strapped them in. The vehicle driver realised that it was not the same person they had dropped off in the morning. They took them back and looked for the correct person. That is real life IMO.

The nannies testimony all depends on how many actual days Maddie was really in the creche IMO. It takes a few days to recognize someone if everyone is the same age and has similar hair etc.
If you are comparing your memory of a child you saw once or twice to a photo that is ambiguous then you would struggle. IMO

Eta. Learning "differences" to be PC
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Post by Guest 12.10.10 11:07

I'm not ignoring anyone, I'm just trying to find the items Tony has asked for first.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Tony, when you select the link above, wait for it to fully load, then press control and the letter F. The find box should appear, insert the word curtain and you should land immediately on the paragraph below.

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog
was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas
on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was
in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely
presence of human blood.



I trust those dogs more than anything, but the forensic conclusion of course, with no surprise, gave a somewhat different opinion.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

The first Forensic Report by John Lowe

A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only two unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material recovered from the hem of one of the blue curtains 286A/2007-CRL(16(2)) from the apartment.

Low level incomplete DNA results, which in certain circumstances showed a contribution of DNA from more than one person were obtained from biological material on the following swabs: 286A/2007 CRL 14a, 14b, 15a; the swab from the hem of the curtain 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2; the swabs from the tile pieces 286/2007 CRL 2 areas 1 and 2 and 3 area 1. In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone from the McCann family contributed their DNA to them results.

The second Forensic Report by John Lowe

286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain
286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain

These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected. The hem of one of the blue curtains (16) was swabbed to collect any cellular material that might exist. An incomplete, inconclusive DNA result consisting only of two unconfirmed DNA components was obtained. In my opinion the result is not adequate for comparison purposes. The sample was submitted for LCN analysis.

An incomplete, low-level DNA result, comprising only some DNA components, was obtained through LCN from the cellular material recovered from the hem of one the curtains. In my opinion, this result contained information too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.




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Post by Guest 12.10.10 12:02

From Martin Grime's report
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
Red cells 40-50%
Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water)
White cells
Platelets
DNA can only be removed from white cells.
This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.
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Post by Guest 12.10.10 16:40

Tony, I have looked through all available reference areas for the "washing of the curtains" and so far can only see a reference to it in a Mirror article. I will check GA's book tomorrow, that's the only one I have not looked at.
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Post by Guest 13.10.10 11:19

Tony said:
One possibility canvassed is that they were all looked after each night in just one apartment by just one adult carer. I don't think there is any backing for this suggestion though.

Looking at all the statements, there seems to be an awful lot of people who were away from the table every night. I have felt for some time that all the children stayed in the Payne's apartment. Jane mentions about looking out of the curtains one day and could see everyone at the table. Could she really do that from her apartment, or was she upstairs in the Payne's apartment?

Then we have Matt’s little slip up

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

'Well Kate went and did the next check and think because we'd, I didn't, we didn't all go at that point, just Kate went and, erm, and then came running back saying, she's gone, Gerry Madeleine's gone, and she was sort of borderline hysterical, as you'd expect, and then there was just a blur as everybody then just ran off from the table. Erm, then everybody I think left the table, I mean, I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them".


Their daughter Grace was supposed to be inside their own apartment which is located on the ground floor, so why drop Rachel off "up there"? Why did he backtrack fast immediately after stating "Jane came out of the apartment"? Was she the one watching all of the other children just before the alarm was raised? Is this why Dianne Webster did not rush off like a mad women to check if her grandchildren were still there that night? and who are the "them". Jane and who else was there?

Then we have a few comments from the tapas staff about them using a "walkie talkie". As far as I know baby monitors are universally known as baby monitors. The fact that some have referred to them as walkie talkies, might suggest that they were using the device to talk to someone at the other end? An adult perhaps?

Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira Date: 2007/01/30
On the original report it does say the 30th January 2007, which cannot be correct
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_266.jpg
When asked, he says that he remembers that it was usual during dinner for one or two members of the group to leave the table for about 10 or 15 minutes and given the fact that on various occasions he saw walkie talkies on the table, he supposed that they went to check on their children who were in their respective rooms.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm


Could it have been used as a kind of I've finished my dinner, I've ordered yours and I'm coming to swap with you, sort of thing?
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Post by Guest 13.10.10 11:33

From Matthew Oldfield’s roggie:

4078 "And your normal priority was really to check G***e.”
Reply "Yeah.”
4078 "Which you and Rachael had been doing between you at natural intervals.”
Reply "Yeah, and it just fell to each couple to check each others and then, I think I might have mentioned in one of the previous ones they, Dave and Fiona had a monitor stretched the distance across from the, their apartment to ours and it was just that as the holiday went on and you knew from better, it seemed like the sort of nice thing to do, to, offer to do it on that last, on the last night, but it wasn’t usual routine err for us to check on each other’s children, it may be different for Dave and Fiona you know Gerry and Kate better and their children better but for us it only, during the holiday it didn’t seem appropriate at the beginning, it wouldn’t be our natural response to do it.”
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm


Matt’s just confirmed here that he changed his routine on the very night Madeleine went missing.

The big question is, how did he know that night was going to be the last night ???

I always thought our Matt was the weakest link.

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Post by Guest 13.10.10 11:53

Stella, you raise a good point. How come on that night and the only night, that suddenly they decided to check the McCanns apartment? Did GM or KM reciprocate and check their friends children, if not why not? Was it so that there was someone other than the McCanns would be in the apartment, to see Madeleine. Another witness that could vouch she was still there and alive when he checked. We were led to believe in the press that this was the case. It was only later when the case files were released that we learned that although the check was done, but Madeleine hadn't actually been seen.
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Post by Guest 13.10.10 12:15

Exactly Candyfloss, then we have this that also only happened on that particular night.

Where did these two get the idea of setting up travel cots in other people’s rooms?

Balu http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm

Around 19:00, together with my wife and son, we headed to the Berry apartment. When we arrived, Neil was having problems in assembling a cot, which was placed there for my son. We had to head to the Mark Warner service desk and they sent someone to help us.


Berry http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm

With relation to where I was between 18.00 and 23.00: After I returned to the apartment I was with my wife and children. The children went to bed at 19.00 and Raj arrived at our apartment with his family, carrying a cot for his son. We did not manage to set the cot up and I went to find a member of staff. I found a Mark Warner employee, whose name I cannot remember but she was the girlfriend of a maintenance employee called Rob. She accompanied us back to the apartment and managed to set up the cot. We put Raj's child to bed and sat down to relax and have a drink, once the children were asleep.


One enormous contradiction there me thinks. whistling
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