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Unorthodox Theorizing

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Post by crusader on 30.06.20 22:24

It has been proved the blood spots behind the sofa were from a MALE,
THEY DID NOT BELONG TO MADELEINE.
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Post by Blackpied on 30.06.20 23:00

Tell me who proved it ,did they have anything to do with the Mac’s 
 I don’t believe that ,it was Madeleines blood full stopThey have proof the german guy killed Madeleine do you believe them?No ,it depends 
on who you listen to. Most of them get a nice little payments for spreading this s****.
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Post by crusader on 01.07.20 0:26

@Blackpied

The tile, curtain and sofa samples were sent to Forensic Science Services in Birmingham.

John Lowe of FSS, said in his report that the DNA result from the back of the sofa,appeared to have originated from at least 3 people, 2 of which were male.

There was no evidence to support the view that Gerry or Madeleine contributed DNA to the result.

You can read the full report in the PJ files Here: The Dogs- F.S.S. portuguese forensics.

F.S.S. John Lowe report.
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Post by miffy8 on 01.07.20 10:36

That makes sense as people move the furniture around in holiday accommodation, especially the sofa.

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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 10:56

@crusader wrote:@Blackpied

The tile, curtain and sofa samples were sent to Forensic Science Services in Birmingham.

John Lowe of FSS, said in his report that the DNA result from the back of the sofa,appeared to have originated from at least 3 people, 2 of which were male.

There was no evidence to support the view that Gerry or Madeleine contributed DNA to the result.

You can read the full report in the PJ files Here: The Dogs- F.S.S. portuguese forensics.

F.S.S. John Lowe report.
Wasn't the FSS closed down shortly after Gordon Brown visited it, I'm doing this all from memory so you'll have to forgive me if I get things wrong.

I also remember Goncala Amaral doing an interview many years ago and he said the one thing he regretted was that they sent the samples to the FSS, does anyone else remember that?
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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 11:58

@cookiemuncher wrote:
@crusader wrote:@Blackpied

The tile, curtain and sofa samples were sent to Forensic Science Services in Birmingham.

John Lowe of FSS, said in his report that the DNA result from the back of the sofa,appeared to have originated from at least 3 people, 2 of which were male.

There was no evidence to support the view that Gerry or Madeleine contributed DNA to the result.

You can read the full report in the PJ files Here: The Dogs- F.S.S. portuguese forensics.

F.S.S. John Lowe report.
Wasn't the FSS closed down shortly after Gordon Brown visited it, I'm doing this all from memory so you'll have to forgive me if I get things wrong.

I also remember Goncala Amaral doing an interview many years ago and he said the one thing he regretted was that they sent the samples to the FSS, does anyone else remember that?
I've had a look through GA's book on line and Chapter 19 talks about the FSS results which is very interesting.

A bit further down it goes on to mention the finger prints on the window and GA starts to question why is Stuart Prior interfering and they prefer not to discuss their findings with him.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AMARALS_BOOK_ENGLISH.htm
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Post by crusader on 01.07.20 15:20

@ cookiemuncher    In chapter 18 of GA book when he talks about the FSS results, I believe he is talking about the first preliminary results.

Anyone reading the book, without reading through the results in the PJ files will be led to believe that Madeleine's blood was on the sofa, floor and curtains.

According to the FSS, there is no evidence to support this.

Have you read the report? It is very interesting. It also gives the report on the hire car.
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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 15:31

@crusader wrote:@ cookiemuncher    In chapter 18 of GA book when he talks about the FSS results, I believe he is talking about the first preliminary results.

Anyone reading the book, without reading through the results in the PJ files will be led to believe that Madeleine's blood was on the sofa, floor and curtains.

According to the FSS, there is no evidence to support this.

Have you read the report? It is very interesting. It also gives the report on the hire car.
Crusader. the whole idea of me pointing it out was that GA didn't really believe the findings of the FSS results.  if you read what he says in his book in Chapter 19 on the FSS, I believe what GA says not the FSS. He knew that the UK establishment were working against the PJ.

You didn't mention anything about what GA said in an interview, that "he regrets giving the samples to the FSS".  Did you hear him say that because I'm sure I did.

GA also points out about the blood found in the car, again I believe what GA says not the FSS.

Not forgetting that the FSS was owned by the Government, it wasn't an independent laboratory.
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Post by crusader on 01.07.20 15:42

I do remember GA saying something along those lines, cant at the moment remember where I saw it. He said he sent the samples to the UK so there wouldn't be any suspicions about the results,he said they had excellent science services in Portugal, something along those lines anyway. 

I believe GA is a man of great integrity,  if it is ever proved that what was sent to the PJ from FSS I will give up.

Have you read the FSS report in the PJ files.
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Post by Blackpied on 01.07.20 15:49

@crusader wrote:@Blackpied

The tile, curtain and sofa samples were sent to Forensic Science Services in Birmingham.

John Lowe of FSS, said in his report that the DNA result from the back of the sofa,appeared to have originated from at least 3 people, 2 of which were male.

There was no evidence to support the view that Gerry or Madeleine contributed DNA to the result.

You can read the full report in the PJ files Here: The Dogs- F.S.S. portuguese forensics.

F.S.S. John Lowe report.
The f.s.s. did what they were told and that was “it was not Maddies blood”but it was.
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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 15:49

@crusader wrote:I do remember GA saying something along those lines, cant at the moment remember where I saw it. He said he sent the samples to the UK so there wouldn't be any suspicions about the results,he said they had excellent science services in Portugal, something along those lines anyway. 

I believe GA is a man of great integrity,  if it is ever proved that what was sent to the PJ from FSS I will give up.

Have you read the FSS report in the PJ files.
It'l s all in Chapter 19 in GA's book that I gave a link to.  Yes, he said they sent the samples to the UK as they didn't want any suspicion arising about the results.

I believe the DNA was destroyed by the FSS as they said they can only keep results for a short while (how convenient), again I'm going by my memory from a long time ago.

No I haven't read the FSS report, but GA wrote his book and included his thoughts on the FSS files, as I said, I would believe him over the FSS that was owned by the UK government that were working against the PJ.
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Post by crusader on 01.07.20 16:18

Ok, I can see I'm flogging a dead horse, we will have to disagree on the FSS forensics.

I'm sure I read somewhere a list of non perishable items sent back to the PJ from FSS.
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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 16:28

@crusader wrote:Ok, I can see I'm flogging a dead horse, we will have to disagree on the FSS forensics.

I'm sure I read somewhere a list of non perishable items sent back to the PJ from FSS.
Crusader, I'm not being rude but I think you should open your eyes to what the UK Establishment is all about.  They control everything, they can do what they like when they like, they can say what they want without anyone disagreeing with them most of the time.

Why do you think Blair and Brown were kotowing to the McCanns, would they have done the same to Mr & Mrs Joe Bloggs who lived in abject poverty in a poor town somewhere "up North".

They all had connections, don't delude yourself.  Gerry McCann was on the Committee regarding the effect of nuclear power stations on children's health.  How much does he know that has been hidden from the UK population for example.
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Post by Verdi on 01.07.20 16:39

@cookiemuncher wrote:
@crusader wrote:I do remember GA saying something along those lines, cant at the moment remember where I saw it. He said he sent the samples to the UK so there wouldn't be any suspicions about the results,he said they had excellent science services in Portugal, something along those lines anyway. 

I believe GA is a man of great integrity,  if it is ever proved that what was sent to the PJ from FSS I will give up.

Have you read the FSS report in the PJ files.
It'l s all in Chapter 19 in GA's book that I gave a link to.  Yes, he said they sent the samples to the UK as they didn't want any suspicion arising about the results.

I believe the DNA was destroyed by the FSS as they said they can only keep results for a short while (how convenient), again I'm going by my memory from a long time ago.

No I haven't read the FSS report, but GA wrote his book and included his thoughts on the FSS files, as I said, I would believe him over the FSS that was owned by the UK government that were working against the PJ.

The PJ files record the proceeding of the PJ investigation in comprfehensive detail.  Snr Amaral's book, although valuable in it's own right, is not an accurate account of the PJ investigation.  It's written more on the lines of a journal, reviewing and pondering salient points he recalls during his time as case co-ordinator.

The PJ files are the place to go for a primary reference source - otherwise evidence, fact and theory get seriously diluted and misrepresented - as has been seen too many times over the past 13 years.

It's leads to the propagation of erroneous information and forum myth - not at all helpful I'm sure you will agree.

Your posts illustrates the point to perfection.  I quote .... 'I believe the DNA was destroyed by the FSS as they said they can only keep results for a short while (how convenient), again I'm going by my memory from a long time ago.'  This is very misleading in itself.  

The exact wording from the PJ files ..

Destruction of Samples

Investigating officer. Stuart Prior

A  -  Perishable samples.

Certain samples constitute a potential health risk. With the concurrence of the Home Office, it has been decided that such samples will not be submitted to the courts unless specifically requested by the Defence. (This is an extension of the procedures for the disposal of blood samples previously agreed by the Lord Chief Justice, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the former Chief Metropolitan Magistrate.

The laboratory has examined one or more of the samples listed below. They will not be returned to you but will be destroyed in due course unless we are requested by the Defence to preserve them. You should notify the Defence solicitors in accordance with Home Office circulars 40/73 and 74/82 which allow a period of 21 days in which notice in writing must be given, by the defendant or his legal representative to the laboratory to prevent the samples being destroyed.

- Blood samples.
- Saliva samples.
- Swabs from body orifices.
- Other swabs bearing potentially hazardous material.
- Vomit, faeces, urine, etc.

The above list includes perishable personal samples, the destruction of which is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (1984).

B  -  Non-Perishable samples

The destruction of other, non-perishable personal samples is required by Section 64 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. These include:

- Control head hair samples.
- Control pubic hair samples.
- Finger nail samples.
- Casts- e.g of teeth or feet.

Except as below those non-perishable personal samples are returned to you as parts of exhibits for production at court, etc. The laboratory is not responsible for their destruction.

The part of these samples which were removed for examination, will be retained by the laboratory for the period of time as specified in the MOU for Retained Materials (3, 7 or 30 years) from the date of this notice to allow access to other legitimate parties. After this period, in the absence of written instruction to the contrary, the retained samples will be destroyed and a record made of their destruction.

Signed.

Dated 21st August 2007.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Whilst I agree the FSS analysis and results of forrensic samples sent to them by the PJ can be seen as questionable, without evidence to prove (or even suggest) malpractice, it's a subject to be avoided.

If you read the files, you will get a clearer understanding.

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Post by crusader on 01.07.20 16:42

Don't hold back cookiemuncher, say whats on your mind.
As a Deluded' blind to the truth person, who does indeed live in a poor town somewhere " up North", I chose at this juncture, to not go down the conspiracy route.
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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 16:48

@crusader wrote:Don't hold back cookiemuncher, say whats on your mind.
As a Deluded' blind to the truth person, who does indeed live in a poor town somewhere " up North", I chose at this juncture, to not go down the conspiracy route.
Crusader, I'm sure if you were in dire straights and had a child missing you wouldn't have had Blair or Brown on the phone to you within minutes, or now Boris, would you?

How many children have been murdered and "missing" over the past 13 years and have had a PM phoning them? 

Please let me know.

ETA: You didn't mention anything about Gerry McCann being on a Committee regarding the health of children who live near nuclear power stations.  What are your thoughts on that
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Post by Verdi on 01.07.20 16:52

@cookiemuncher wrote:
@crusader wrote:Ok, I can see I'm flogging a dead horse, we will have to disagree on the FSS forensics.

I'm sure I read somewhere a list of non perishable items sent back to the PJ from FSS.
Crusader, I'm not being rude but I think you should open your eyes to what the UK Establishment is all about.  They control everything, they can do what they like when they like, they can say what they want without anyone disagreeing with them most of the time.

Why do you think Blair and Brown were kotowing to the McCanns, would they have done the same to Mr & Mrs Joe Bloggs who lived in abject poverty in a poor town somewhere "up North".

They all had connections, don't delude yourself.  Gerry McCann was on the Committee regarding the effect of nuclear power stations on children's health.  How much does he know that has been hidden from the UK population for example.

The key is cookimuncher, not to make broad gushing statments about who might or might not be connected to the case of Madeleine Mccann's disappearance, but to research and locate evidence to support your (not you in isolation, same applies to anyone who makes unevidenced statements) allegations.

There can be little or no doubt that this case has been controlled from the beginning, thus preventing the Portuguese from conducting a routine investigation. They were lead astray right from the beginning - the McCanns and their friends set the ball rolling with tales of abduction. Without any proof and/or strong indication as to who did what, why, when and where it is but supposition.

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Post by crusader on 01.07.20 16:57

I absolutely agree with you cokiemuncher, but that is not what we were discussing.
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Post by miffy8 on 01.07.20 17:41

Do you honestly think for one minute that GA and his team would not have thought that forensic tests might return an incorrect result?  GA is a man of great integrity and not bloody stupid! He would have known about the necessary permissions required to preserve perishable samples and every other piece of evidence that could be forensically tested and I am sure they would have been obtained in anticipation that they might be required at a later date for re-testing. I haven't read the files but common sense dictates that you don't hand over the entirety of your evidence.  bignono bignono girlno

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Post by cookiemuncher on 01.07.20 18:33

@miffy8 wrote:Do you honestly think for one minute that GA and his team would not have thought that forensic tests might return an incorrect result?  GA is a man of great integrity and not bloody stupid! He would have known about the necessary permissions required to preserve perishable samples and every other piece of evidence that could be forensically tested and I am sure they would have been obtained in anticipation that they might be required at a later date for re-testing. I haven't read the files but common sense dictates that you don't hand over the entirety of your evidence.  bignono bignono girlno
I replied to you a little earlier but my whole comment seems to have disappeared as one did earlier today.

I said that the PJ were naive and thought that the FSS would do the right thing for a 3 year old girl who had gone missing....

I'll leave it that.
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Post by pdlsleuth1990 on 01.07.20 20:42

Before I became engrossed in the Madeline McCann case I used to read every book going about the JFK assassination. 

One of the better books bemoaned the fact that some of the more outlandish theories had been backed up by little research and very little evidence. These alternative theories made it easier to debunk the whole "conspiracy" theory debate and put the more likely theories in the same boat. In the authors view the real perpetrators were very happy with the number of theories and claims as it took the focus off the real facts. Confusion was their best friend (I think Gerry also said something about confusion). In reality even if you believe the Mc Canns to be guilty of something only one theory will probably be correct ( e.g. it may be that the death was caused by accident, but then the abuse theories will probably not be correct).  

PS This is my first post and I am certainly not having a go at any of the theories proposed here. I have looked at Amaral's analysis, James Bogart, Richard Hall, Nich Van Der Leer and they all have different conclusions. 

Also feel free to delete if you feel it adds nothing to the debate
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Post by Verdi on 01.07.20 21:38

@pdlsleuth1990 wrote:Before I became engrossed in the Madeline McCann case I used to read every book going about the JFK assassination. 

One of the better books bemoaned the fact that some of the more outlandish theories had been backed up by little research and very little evidence. These alternative theories made it easier to debunk the whole "conspiracy" theory debate and put the more likely theories in the same boat. In the authors view the real perpetrators were very happy with the number of theories and claims as it took the focus off the real facts. Confusion was their best friend (I think Gerry also said something about confusion). In reality even if you believe the Mc Canns to be guilty of something only one theory will probably be correct ( e.g. it may be that the death was caused by accident, but then the abuse theories will probably not be correct).  

PS This is my first post and I am certainly not having a go at any of the theories proposed here. I have looked at Amaral's analysis, James Bogart, Richard Hall, Nich Van Der Leer and they all have different conclusions. 

Also feel free to delete if you feel it adds nothing to the debate

welcome pdlsleuth 1990

I couldn't agree more with your point about wild conspiracy theories. I've always been of the opinion that team McCann welcome all this negativity, indeed I believe a lot of it has been planted by team McCann to whip-up hysteria - and it's worked every time, starting with the abduction by paedophile implant.

That aside, CMOMM considers itself to be an investigative forum and comprehensive reference source. For that reason alone, we try as far as possible to stick to fact, evidence, intelligence and informed opinion when developing theory. That is where we differ from most other fora and blogs (and the British police it would appear) past and present who tend to theorize on rumour, supposition and speculation.

It helps to keep that in mind.

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Post by Verdi on 02.07.20 0:35

@cookiemuncher wrote:I said that the PJ were naive and thought that the FSS would do the right thing for a 3 year old girl who had gone missing....

I'll leave it that.

The PJ were certainly not naive, their focus was to conduct an open honest thorough investigation in line with standard policing protocol. They were prevented from doing their job with integrity because of outside interference - primarily the British authorities.

Gonçalo Amaral's take on the subject, taken from his book 'the Truth of the Lie'..

HARVESTING OF THE SAMPLES DERIVED FROM THE SPECIALIST DOGS' INSPECTIONS.

So that the items of evidence might constitute admissible proof, the harvesting and packing must conform to the rules avoiding all risk of deterioration and contamination. It is experts from our police forensic laboratory who carry out the harvesting.

The minuscule traces cannot be gathered in situ, so the tiling is gently lifted out before being transferred to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Birmingham. Photos bear witness to every stage of the operation. For added security, it is the expert responsible for the collection who takes them to FSS on the morning of August 7th.

The choice of this laboratory is not insignificant. Apart from their use of cutting-edge technologies - LCN (Low Copy Number) a DNA identification test, used particularly when only microscopic samples are available -, the results, whatever they might be will not be able to be contested by the British since it's one of their most reliable laboratories.

All other items of evidence gathered - the keys to the McCanns' car, hair and traces of blood found in the boot - are also sent to England.


I call that intelligent smart shrewd thinking - not naivety. Snr Amaral was ahead of the game until he was removed from the case. I venture to suggest his sagacity was the true reason he was removed from the case.

whistling

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Post by miffy8 on 02.07.20 9:45

I don't know if anyone else agrees with me but I've always had the feeling that this case was initially investigated with an honest approach and, things changed. The turning point for me was when I watched the interview on breakfast TV when Philip Schofield interviewed Kate and the discussion was about a theory that Madeleine's was under RM's newly tarmacked driveway.  Somebody had offered to pay for thermal imaging cameras and an excavation of the site. Now considering the McCann's campaign was called 'Leave no stone unturned' one could reasonably assume she would have jumped at the chance but, instead, was shockingly dismissive. Alarm bells started to ring for me at this point as most mothers of a missing child would dig the site up with a teaspoon given half a chance if they thought there was even the remotest possibility their precious child could be under it. I remember thinking how could she possibly sit there and expect the nation to swallow that when all eyes were on her. My initial gut feeling was that she had been silenced.

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Post by pauloalexandre on 02.07.20 12:25

@miffy8 wrote:I don't know if anyone else agrees with me but I've always had the feeling that this case was initially investigated with an honest approach and, things changed. The turning point for me was when I watched the interview on breakfast TV when Philip Schofield interviewed Kate and the discussion was about a theory that Madeleine's was under RM's newly tarmacked driveway.  Somebody had offered to pay for thermal imaging cameras and an excavation of the site. Now considering the McCann's campaign was called 'Leave no stone unturned' one could reasonably assume she would have jumped at the chance but, instead, was shockingly dismissive. Alarm bells started to ring for me at this point as most mothers of a missing child would dig the site up with a teaspoon given half a chance if they thought there was even the remotest possibility their precious child could be under it. I remember thinking how could she possibly sit there and expect the nation to swallow that when all eyes were on her. My initial gut feeling was that she had been silenced.
The person who spouted that theory was Stephen Birch, who at some point, had the shameful idea of telling Madeleine's twins Sean and Amelie that their sister was buried under Murat's driveway.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t12150-stephen-d-birch-asks-for-legal-advice-on-his-plans-to-confront-the-mccanns-twins

Does that sound like someone you should take seriously? I don't blame Kate for not giving him consideration.

Sean and Amelie should have a normal life, one that is not interrupted by some attention-seeking crank or media gossip.

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