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Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by sharonl on 26.05.18 21:57

@stonesunturned wrote:Let me try again. The "theory" of this community is that Madeleine died in Apartment 5A and her parents kept her body hidden in the closet for several days. The "evidence" for this theory is that a "cadaver dog" brought in THREE months later barked when it was near the parents bedroom closet, and barked when sniffing Kate's clothes. The dog's handler claims that that's the dog's signal for detecting the scent of the byproducts of decayed flesh. Is that right? And everyone admits that forensics found NOTHING to confirm this opinion. Right? It's the opinion of the dog's handler, versus all the other evidence. Right?

Don't go running off on 15 tangents. Just answer the question, please.

I DON'T CARE if the dogs are "right" or "wrong." What I CARE about is, police state they searched that apartment, including all closets, cupboards, the washing machine, and the refrigerator. NO MADELEINE.

Right? Or have I missed something? Or does no one care about my actual question?

That's not quite right Stonesunturned.

We don't claim to know where the body may have been stored.  According to Goncalo Amaral, the body was temporarily hidden on the beach.  The cadaver scent in the wardrobe may have been cross contamination from the clothing or maybe the blue bag.

As far as the dogs evidence is concerned.  These were the UK top police dogs who had never given a false alert in over in over 200 previous outings.  The facts are that the alerted their handler to the existence of cadaver odour and human blood in no less than 17 areas connected   to the McCanns, their apartment and hire car. They did not alert to any other item or area   in PDL.

The body was not found - but that doesn't mean that it was never there.

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by stonesunturned on 26.05.18 22:02

Sharoni: Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that Madeleine's corpse was stored in the closet for some time. How did it get there? Police searched every nook and cranny, including all cupboards and cabinets, even the washing machine and fridge, when they arrived. No Madeleine. Right?
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by sharonl on 26.05.18 22:15

@stonesunturned wrote:Sharoni: Okay, let's assume for the sake of argument that Madeleine's corpse was stored in the closet for some time. How did it get there? Police searched every nook and cranny, including all cupboards and cabinets, even the washing machine and fridge, when they arrived. No Madeleine. Right?

Please take the time to research the evidence more thoroughly. Take a look at Richard Hall's documentary, When Madeleine died?  As many of us already have, you may conclude that Madeleine died earlier in the week.

No one is stating as fact that the body was stored in the closet, but thank you for your post because if Madeleines' corpse had been stored in the closet, it must have been before the evening of May 3rd.

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by stonesunturned on 26.05.18 22:27

Yeah, I know Hall claims Madeleine was dead long before May 3. But, that requires all of their friends, AND everyone at the creches, to be lying. But that's a tangent.

My question, that everyone is bending over backwards to ignore is--again--we KNOW Madeleine was NOT in apartment 5A when police arrived. Yes? or No? AT LEAST two officers searched every closet, every cupboard, the washing machine, the fridge, etc. Right? 

Why can't anyone read and respond to a simple question about that police report? Did anyone here actually read it, or not? Am I the only one?

Police verified beyond any doubt that Madeleine was not in 5A when they arrived. Yes. or No.
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by Phoebe on 26.05.18 22:48

@ stoneunturned. If you do some research on cadaver dogs you will understand  the following hypothetical scenario.

 Mr. X drops dead in his sitting room one afternoon. Approximately 90 mins later his neighbour comes in and finds him lying on the floor. The neighbour calls for an ambulance which arrives within minutes and takes poor Mr. X's corpse away. Many YEARS later (and after several changes of occupant) a cadaver dog is brought into Mr. X's sitting room. The dog will alert to THE PAST PRESENCE of Mr. X's corpse in the room. It's simple really! I suggest you do some research on how cadaver dogs operate and are used and then you will understand the implications of Eddie's and Keela's work in the Madeleine McCann case.

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by sharonl on 26.05.18 23:04

@Stonesunturned

Here is a simple video which may be a good place to start


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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by Jill Havern on 26.05.18 23:10

@stonesunturned wrote:Yeah, I know Hall claims Madeleine was dead long before May 3. But, that requires all of their friends, AND everyone at the creches, to be lying. But that's a tangent.

My question, that everyone is bending over backwards to ignore is--again--we KNOW Madeleine was NOT in apartment 5A when police arrived. Yes? or No?  Yes  AT LEAST two officers searched every closet, every cupboard, the washing machine, the fridge, etc. Right?   Yes

Why can't anyone read and respond to a simple question about that police report? Did anyone here actually read it, or not? Am I the only one?

Police verified beyond any doubt that Madeleine was not in 5A when they arrived. Yes. or No.  Yes
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by sharonl on 26.05.18 23:17

If Madeleine or her corpse had been found in the apartment when the police arrived, the search would have ended before 11pm on May 3rd 2007.

Why ask this question?

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by stonesunturned on 26.05.18 23:24

Thanks, Jill!

So, logically, the next question is, according to those witness statements taken May 4 (and NOT after May 4) "Did ANYONE except Kate and Gerry claim they actually SAW Madeleine  actually inside 5A after the kids had "high tea?" 

I don't see any such statement...did I miss something? Or are Kate and Gerry they only people who stated that Madeleine was in the apartment before they left for dinner?
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by Jill Havern on 26.05.18 23:27

David Payne claimed to have briefly seen all children dressed in white like angels around 6pm.
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by stonesunturned on 26.05.18 23:30

Jill: Oo! I missed that! Many thanks!

I need to get some work done on other projects, but as soon as I've had a chance to sleep on it, double check it, etc, I'll come back and ask whatever next question I have.

Have a great holiday, everyone!
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by Tony Bennett on 27.05.18 0:04

@stonesunturned wrote:Let me try again. The "theory" of this community is that Madeleine died in Apartment 5A and her parents kept her body hidden in the closet for several days...

(REST SNIPPED)
Once again, Professor Horan, you have v clearly and badly misunderstood the hypothesis we have developed here over the past 11 years and which is supported by the long-term and patient work of several accomplished Madeleine McCann researchers.

If, as some suggest, Madeleine was already dead by Sunday night, then of course those involved would arrange to swiftly hide or dispose of her body - and quite obviouly not in the McCanns' apartment. The rest of the week can then best be understood as v careful preparation for the 'announcement' of her 'abduction' on Thursday at the appointed time, around 10pm. Evidence of her death would have to be removed, cover stories devised and fake abductors created, as they were by Jane Tanner and Nuno Lourenco using the convenient template of Wojcek Krokowski.

On that analysis, the prime tasks of the McCanns in the first 24 hours you speak of would be to make sure that their version of what happened to Madeleine was adopted quickly - and lock, stock and barrel - by the media. In this they have succeeded  for the past 11 years...with the help of some of the most powerful people in our country.


.

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by stonesunturned on 27.05.18 1:02

No, Jill, that's what David said in November 2008. That's why I didn't see it. 

So, just to confirm, NOBODY on May 4 claimed they saw Madeleine (alive or otherwise) in 5A. Right?
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by Verdi on 27.05.18 2:09

I think you are over simplifying the first 24 hour criteria, apart from anything else, when did the first 24 hours start/finish - Sunday 29th April, Thursday 3rd May or any day in between?  This is no ordinary case, as can be clearly seen if and when you study the detail.  You need to remember the witness statements taken on 4th May 2007 were but routine policing following the report of a missing child.  A missing child who the parents insisted had been abducted, complete with a group member's testimony,  Jane Tanner, who claims to have seen a stranger on the streets of Luz around the same time as Madeleine was possibly abducted.

That was the required emphasis in the early hours.  The elaboration came later, as is quite normal as an investigation progresses and can easily lead to identifying anomalies, anomalies not apparent in the first 24 hours following the crime, simply because the investigation hadn't progressed beyond the initial alert.  Your 24 hour criteria therefore is not foolproof, even though relevant in the first hours as regards a police investigation. 

You can take any criminal case by way of example, you will find the first 24 hours do not provide the answers, only as the investigation develops can the police start to identify areas requiring further scrutiny.  That is no incompetence, it's basic policing - how can you effectively investigate without information, the only way to get that information is to further investigate the crime, leaving no stone unturned to coin a phrase.

That is precisely what the PJ were doing, routine policing, only they were prevented from following their line of inquiries due to outside influence, i.e. the UK establishment.

If you wish to continue to use CMoMM as a source of information to further your podcast project, I must ask that you respect the forum and it's members and refrain from suggesting that the Portuguese police were incompentent.  You have arrived here as a claimed researcher looking for information about the case of missing Madeleine McCann,  please don't insult members when they are providing the information you request - even if it's not what you want to hear.

Whatever you need to know for your project is in the PJ files, read and learn, if you want to stick around don't waste time finding fault with the work of CMoMM - at least not until you're familiar with the forum and it's purpose - better still, until you're familiar with the Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann.

Enjoy your holiday!

NB:  You claim to be a professor,  an author,  a part-time private investigator/consultant, a teacher, an executive producer and host of The Stones Unturned Podcast - sorry to be rude but you seem to lack the rudiments of a proficient writer.  My sincere apologies if English is not your first language or you are having computer problems - I know the feeling!

A genuine question - right?

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by polyenne on 27.05.18 7:41

S
I’ll answer the question : NO, Madeleine was NOT in 5A when the police arrived late on 3 May.
Why ? Because she met her demise some days prior to the “abduction” day and her body was moved away prior to that date.
Thus, as Verdi has postulated above, exactly which day/days and times would you like your 24 hour window to cover ?
I suggest to you, in this particular case, that your 24 hour window is waaaaaaaay too narrow and that, by informing yourself a little more fully from the PJ Files and the informative material available on this forum, you will come to realise this.
I wish you the best of British.

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by nglfi on 27.05.18 8:40

As a principle, working initially with only the first 24 hours is sound. The problem with this case and many others, is that the first 24 hours in which police were aware, IS NOT the first 24 hours in which Madeleine met her fate. The time periods do not match.


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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by BlueBag on 27.05.18 9:03

@stonesunturned wrote:Yeah, I know Hall claims Madeleine was dead long before May 3. But, that requires all of their friends, AND everyone at the creches, to be lying. But that's a tangent.

My question, that everyone is bending over backwards to ignore is--again--we KNOW Madeleine was NOT in apartment 5A when police arrived. Yes? or No? AT LEAST two officers searched every closet, every cupboard, the washing machine, the fridge, etc. Right? 

Why can't anyone read and respond to a simple question about that police report? Did anyone here actually read it, or not? Am I the only one?

Police verified beyond any doubt that Madeleine was not in 5A when they arrived. Yes. or No.
Well I'm sure I'm not alone in being puzzled by your question.

Do you think we think the body was in 5A when the police arrived?

I can't understand why you ask since the answer is simple.

Anyway, here are some facts for you to digest.

The dogs alerted to blood and/or cadverine in the following places:
Behind the sofa in 5A.
By/in the wardrobe in 5A.
The flowerbed outside 5A.
The McCann hire car boot.
The McCann hire car key fob.
Kate McCanns trousers.
One of the McCann childrens t shirts.
The cuddlecat toy.

They did this as part of being exposed to other apartments, other cars and other clothes - they only indicated the above list.

These dogs had an incredible track record.

So someone who was dead left death traces in 5A, the short list of candidates is very short.
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by aquila on 27.05.18 12:10

I really have no words as to why good people on this forum entertain a charlatan shock jock.
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by stonesunturned on 27.05.18 16:55

Just checking in. Yes, I understand that lots of people already have their minds made up that ______ did ________. You don't need to clog this thread reminding me over and over and over that you already "know" what happened. I have NO intentions of changing anybody's mind. However, I will continue to check back every day or so to see if someone ELSE (who doesn't necessarily post every day) has something to say about those first 24 hours OF THE INVESTIGATION. I do NOT care about ANYTHING at this point except the first 24 hours of the investigation. Period. By the end of the day May 4, GNR detectives had made certain decisions about where they wanted to go next. For example, they had a list of people (like Kate and Gerry) they wanted to re-interview in more depth. And so on. I'm reviewing those decisions, and what those decisions were based on. So far, I have, indeed, noticed something they uncovered in those first 24 hours that they 
"should" have followed up on, but apparently didn't. Before I go any further with that, I'm triple-checking to see if there is anything else IN THOSE FIRST 24 HOURS.

I can't stop you from going off on whatever tangents tickle your toes. Post away. It's your fan club. But I'm not going to get dragged off on any tangents, either. I'm only suggesting you stop wasting your time on THIS thread typing posts I'm only going to ignore.

Thanks again! And if anyone wants to email me tom.horan.lu@gmail.com or come on the podcast to chat about THE FIRST 24 HOURS OF THE INVESTIGATION, please let me know :-)



[mod]
You have already been asked to tone down your attitude towards CMoMM and it's members.

I'm getting rather tired of your narrow minded hostile approach when just commenting or replying to specific posts.

You registered here, so you said, looking for information to help with a podcast you have planned.  The information you required has been provided.

Now I'm telling you, not asking, to stop wasting our time by your seemingly pointless presence here.  If you've got something constructive to contribute then let's here it, otherwise please take a back seat until such times as your 'research' is finalized, or you might find yourself checking-out permanently. 

You are of course welcome to continue reading the wealth of information hereon to enhance your knowledge of the case and to assist your project.

I thank you.
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by BlueBag on 27.05.18 17:18

 By the end of the day May 4, GNR detectives had made certain decisions about where they wanted to go next. 
And on the second day they probably had different ideas because they had more to consider.

I don't get why you want such a squinty-eyed view of the case.
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by sandancer on 27.05.18 21:40

YES ( and that's an emphatic Yes ) " Professor Horan , I shall be delighted when you stop 

wasting our time on THIS thread typing posts that I for one am only going to ignore ! 

Right ? 

Have a nice day .

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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by BlueBag on 28.05.18 7:00

@stonesunturned wrote:You have to be really careful not to overestimate trace evidence. Two weeks before the McCanns arrived, another family occupied apartment 5A. Their little girl fell and cut her chin, and she bled like a stuck pig. So, there's no surprise that there may have been a few drops of blood at kid-height on the walls of the children's bedroom. 
Did she die from the shin injury?

Dogs' noses are SUPER sensitive. 
Damn right.

But you tell us you're not interested in that.

Actually.... what family had the child that bled like a stuck pig?

I thought you were only researching the first 24 hours?
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Re: Professor Horan: Ideas for a podcast about the McCann case

Post by tara on 28.05.18 9:50

Prof Horan, I think you are using this forum as a 'short cut' to knowledge of the case. You appear to be latching on to random pieces of the case and manipulating them to make up your own controversial version. I think you need to slow down and read thoroughly for yourself, digest the info and then make considered suggestions. I don't believe that focusing on a narrow 'window' of time, as you appear to be, is any use without including the bigger picture; there are SO many clues in the bigger picture. I have been on this forum for 16 months and only scratched the surface of the research done by others who have the intellect to make measured and constructive comments about this case.

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