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Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by skyrocket on 16.02.18 10:47

Couldn't bring myself to read more than a few paras and the conclusion - they don't half use 100 words when 1 would do!

Back to @Kaz's point (should this be on the Smithman thread?) - from the till receipts of Kelly's Bar, the only transactions after 20.52pm were 21.39pm (13.75 Euro); 21.49pm (8 Euro); and, 21.50 (5 Euro). The rest are after 10.15pm. Yes, from what Peter Smith says it sounds like he means more than one each but they would hardly have had time if their first round was at 21.40pm (by the time they sat down) and they left between 21.50pm and 22.00pm. Perhaps they had a pint then a quick whiskey chaser before they left?! The first till receipt at 21.39pm suggests that Aoife was more accurate with her timings.

I think it's important that we don't lose sight of what Martin Smith says about the 4 May in his (26 May) statement:

'He only became aware of the disappearance of the child the next morning, through his daughter, L*****, in Ireland who had sent him a message or called him regarding what had happened. At this point he thought that MADELEINE could have been the child he saw with the individual'.


It occured to him that the child they had seen could have been Madeleine on the morning of the 4 May. He compared the child to his own granddaughter (size). SURELY at this point a concerned father/grandfather would not think twice about reporting what he'd seen the night before to the police. He was not a one-visit tourist, he knew Luz, contacting the police would not have been as daunting as it might have been for other tourists.



I do believe the family saw a man carrying a child for the simple reason that I can't believe that Aoife and Tadgh (12 and 13 years old respectively) would have had been expected to/or able to lie convincingly in police interviews. I don't believe for a second that the person they saw was an innocent tourist carrying his own child but I don't believe that the 2 children were/are aware of this.
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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Phoebe on 16.02.18 11:06

Having ploughed through another long-winded offering from Textusa I can only say that it is a classic example of someone trying to shoehorn Madeleine's disappearance to fit their own particular, pet theory. According to Textusa the Maddie case dominates British (and now Irish!!) political thinking, second only to Brexit.!!! -
"The Gemma crisis is about the Republic of Ireland exploiting Maddie in its favour in the Brexit battle.......
Continuing to speculate she proposed to this to the editor who then contacted whoever s/he was able to contact, probably that very influential governmental ‘Irish someone’ who in turn gave the green-light and so Gemma O’Doherty received the green-light to proceed..."



Textusa also seemed to miss O'Doherty's tweet announcing this month's piece as the FIRST in her articles re the McCann case -


"When they gave her a month to publicise the article that should have fired up red flags."



O'Doherty, with a track record of  persistent fearlessness and who has assisted in bringing down Government ministers in her own country, is, according to Textusa, afraid to/banned from writing her real opinions on the Madeleine case beause of U.K interference! 
As my late father used to say "There are none so blind as those who will not see."
As usual, the Textusa article refuses to see anything other than the swinging theory. Everything is viewed through that particular prism and "interpreted" to try and fit with it. 

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 16.02.18 16:06

Whether or not Ms O'Doherty intends to continue an 'investigation' into the case of Madeleine McCann, her attempts so far are a bit of a non-event.  I can't imagine what, or who, prompted her to embark on such an arduous task. As most people who have followed this case since May 2007 can attest, it's many twists and turns created by the the McCanns, their friends and widespread team of supporters (the protectorat) are far too comvoluting to be able to pick-up ten+ years after the event.

Of all the areas of particular interest, I would say that the Smiths sighting hovers around the bottom of the list as regards importance to anyone comparatively new to the case, as regards minute detail. Especially when only to defend his honour!

As I think I've said before, considering the hysteria created by the mere mention of Martin Smith and/or his family being mistaken, or economical with the truth, makes me wonder why it was the chosen subject to launch Ms O'Doherty's 'investigation'.  There is an element out there paranoid about the mere mention of Martin Smith possibly being dishonest, despite the many questionable factors that might appear to implicate him - knowingly or unknowingly.

Could be because Ms O'Doherty is Irish so her main interest is the Irish connection but then again, so is Gerald McCann of Irish descent.  The villagemag article has so far attracted quite a numbe of readers - more than the majority of the magazines articles.  CMoMM members maybe  titter ?

Personally I believe this to be a set-up.  Perhaps Ms O'Doherty is being used to promote Martin Smith's innocence or perhaps it's just concidence that her focus is currently on the Smith family.  We shall see - or not as the case maybe.!

https://villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2018/02/maddie-did-the-bbc-bend-the-truth/

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Mark Willis on 16.02.18 16:49

The Village Magazine (article), destined to gather dust on the doctor's waiting room table, next to the Collateral Meerkats pamphlet and undisturbed pile of GET YOUR FREE COPY flyers of The Untold Story...
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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by MayMuse on 16.02.18 18:17

Oh dear 
As for the man the Smiths saw that night, he has yet to come forward to eliminate himself from the enquiry and remains unidentified.


Was this the whole point of Gemma's article? 




Extended fund request for Task Operation G Range approved for last throw of the dice on a  look alike for Gerry McCann being as Mr Smiths 60 to 80% certain ...McCann untouchables , unless, no wait surely not? 

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Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Phoebe on 16.02.18 18:36

It is a fact that many regard the Smith sighting as a vital piece in the puzzle of Madeleine's disappearance. Pat Brown for example wrote last year that the  Smith sighting was "the key to the case". I presume this, together with claims that Smith had recanted his belief that it was Gerry he saw, piqued O'Doherty's interest. The Smiths agreed to talk to her so she would have been foolish not to have availed of the opportunity to hear the Smith story "from the horse's mouth." Actually , getting the BBC to admit they had misrepresented the situation was, IMO, quite a feather in the cap.  Verdi claims there is a paranoia about the mere mention of Smith's possible dishonesty. It could also be claimed that there is an equal paranoia about the mere mention of the Smiths possible honesty.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by pennylane on 16.02.18 20:29

@Phoebe wrote:It is a fact that many regard the Smith sighting as a vital piece in the puzzle of Madeleine's disappearance. Pat Brown for example wrote last year that the  Smith sighting was "the key to the case". I presume this, together with claims that Smith had recanted his belief that it was Gerry he saw, piqued O'Doherty's interest. The Smiths agreed to talk to her so she would have been foolish not to have availed of the opportunity to hear the Smith story "from the horse's mouth." Actually , getting the BBC to admit they had misrepresented the situation was, IMO, quite a feather in the cap.  Verdi claims there is a paranoia about the mere mention of Smith's possible dishonesty. It could also be claimed that there is an equal paranoia about the mere mention of the Smiths possible honesty.
In a nut shell Phoebe!   2thumbs

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 16.02.18 21:44

@Phoebe wrote:Verdi claims there is a paranoia about the mere mention of Smith's possible dishonesty. It could also be claimed that there is an equal paranoia about the mere mention of the Smiths possible honesty

I totally disagree.  Those who question the authenticity of Martin Smith and members of his family do so with reasoned argrument.  The paranoid have nothing to offer but questioning why he would lie and more so, why would his teenage daughter lie.

For the record, I'm not referring to any member here on CMoMM as 'the paranoid'.  You for example, have put forward a very reasonable argument as to why you believe the Smiths to be only the victims of circumstance - my words.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by MayMuse on 16.02.18 21:58

Considering the BBC reported incorrectly in their programme and only corrected this "mistake"  recently,  I wonder who first informed them that Mr Smith apparently retracted his statement ( it must have come from a "reliable" source?) and secondly why didn't they check it out with Mr Smith, after all Gemma managed to speak with him directly so why not Richard Bilton?

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Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Phoebe on 16.02.18 22:30

Part of the rationale put forward by those who doubt the Smiths' veracity makes much of the length of time which elapsed before they reported what they saw. Goncalo Amaral included the Smith's sighting in his book and has continued to refer to it. At no stage has he indicated that either he, an experienced investigator, or the rest of his P.J. colleagues found anything unusual about  the Smiths not rushing forward to report what they saw. One would expect him to be able to smell a rat if such a delay had seemed at all suspicious. After all, he quickly spotted the rodent in Jane's Tannerman tale! The P.J obviously regarded the Smiths' reluctance and caution as perfectly normal.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 17.02.18 0:21

@Phoebe wrote:At no stage has he indicated that either he, an experienced investigator, or the rest of his P.J. colleagues found anything unusual about the Smiths not rushing forward to report what they saw. One would expect him to be able to smell a rat if such a delay had seemed at all suspicious.

I've got absolutely no idea what Gonçalo Amaral does or doesn't think. I've read his words in the book 'The Truth of the Lie', published around the time the case was archived by the Portuguese authorities but who knows how his thoughts have evolved over the years. A police investigation doesn't stop at any theory until the case is solved - the case isn't solved. I'm not trying to bring Snr Amaral down but it has to be admitted that whilst he was case coordinator, the investigation was developing in a particular direction. In order for this to be productive, all evidence and intelligence would be subject to re-evaluation. The McCanns and their friends witness statements were viewed differently as time progressed, so why not any other witness statement.

I don't recall Snr Amaral specifically casting doubt on any of the childcare workers statements, or any other witness statements for that matter but they sure are open to further scrutiny. Any seasoned professional detective would know never to take anything at face value, nothing but nothing is ever proven until the case is solved - even then there can be doubt.

So many folk feel that Gonçalo Amaral's words are sacrosanct - truth be known, he wouldn't make such an audacious claim. He was removed from the case for a minor indiscretion - apparently, had he continued to lead the investigation without outside influence who knows where it may have led. He was just a normal cop doing his job, how could he possibly have known at the time the extent of that outside influence scuppering the investigation. He had suspicions but was never allowed to follow it through.

One thing I'm sure of - time doesn't stand still. Stands to reason over a period of time, given the opportunity to review all the evidence, that opinions might change.

Hail CMoMM!

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 17.02.18 0:33

Given Martin Smith's exemplary reputation as a good honest upstanding citizen, always discreet and reluctant to engage with the media, why he agreed to be interviewed by a journalist at this late stage - Gemma O'Doherty is after all nothing but a journalist, good or bad.

I don't believe Ms O'Doherty has accredited Mr Smith with a direct quotation. What a pity the interview wasn't videoed, it would have added so much more clout to an otherwise flimsy report.


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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 17.02.18 0:58

@Phoebe wrote:Part of the rationale put forward by those who doubt the Smiths' veracity makes much of the length of time which elapsed before they reported what they saw.

Certainly it's a very important part, at least in my view.  There is however a lot more compelling ammunition presented and discussed on the CMoMM 11 + 2 Smithman threads.  Members and guests, not familiar with the subject, are strongly advised to read through the threads to get an idea behind the rationale.

This is not just a whim built on shifting sands, it's a well researched and analyzed subject worthy of further consideration.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Phoebe on 17.02.18 1:06

@Verdi. I expect Martin Smith agreed to speak to O'Doherty precisely to put the record straight re. the erroneous claims that have been made stating that he recanted his position. These same erroneous claims have fueled accusations that he and his family are liars and are involved in the cover up of a child's death.
On the issue of Goncalo Amaral's opinions in '07. I made the point that neither he nor the rest of the investigation team found it at all remarkable that witnesses like the Smiths do not immediately report what they see. The passage of years since is irrelevant on this point.
It is an inescapable fact that Dr. Amaral still comments on the case. He did so last year on the tenth anniversary. I find suggestions that he has not kept abreast of all developments in this case, or has somehow fallen behind in his interpretation, totally incredible. If he has not altered his belief of how events unfolded I doubt it is for lack of interest, information or insight. His continued position indicates that the inferences drawn by those who read the files and speculate about what happened are not in accordance with his conclusions and knowledge. He has a wealth of information we cannot hope to be privy to. He was there on the ground while it unfolded. He has the advantage of knowing many things we can not.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 17.02.18 2:19

@Phoebe

1.  If Martin Smith wanted to set the record straight wouldn't it have been more constructive to speak to the police rather than a journalist?  If a journalist was deemed essential why Gemma O'Doherty - Smith's reported change of direction is not a new thing, why wait until now to recant his position?

2.  Mr Amaral's official involvement in the case was abruptly halted in October 2007, according to your beliefs he hasn't progressed beyond that point - well, neither has any official investigation.  Mr Amaral only had the evidence before him to evaluate, he knew that outside forces were interfering with the course of justice - it was out of his hands.  Whether or not in his heart of hearts he still believes the case to be consistent with his part in the investigation back in the summer of 2007, despite subsequent compelling evidence of a UK government whitewash, is a matter of conjecture.
 
3.  The UK has a wealth of information that Gonçalo Amaral is not privy to.

I don't pretend to know what Mr Amaral might be thinking ten years down the line, or indeed who his advisors might be.  I only hope for the sake of justice he is being guided by the right people and not the investigation as it stagnated in the summer of 2007.

Whatever, the dispute about the veracity of the Smith sighting is creating a great deal of anxiety in certain quarters that have anything in mind but justice for Madeleine McCann. As I said, no counter argument only hysterical opposition.

Makes you think doesn't it?

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by MayMuse on 17.02.18 11:52

Mark Harrison from Uk , the one who recommended the dogs I think thought the Smithman sighting was credible, so it wasn't only G.A who took it seriously. Strange also that the cctv on that corner did not capture.. the cctv was either not working or it was too late and reused I think, stand to be corrected but always thought this was strange it wasn't collected in time or was it tampered with? Considering the goings on in this case, and the high up involvement I wouldn't put it past them if it was incriminating, in my opinion.

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Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Phoebe on 17.02.18 12:17

@ Verdi. In answer to question 1) We do not know any facts at all about to whom Martin Smith may or may not have complained. The police must be fully aware speculation that he had changed his view is false as he would  have had to contact them in order to do so, which he did not. This however, has not prevented speculation re his involvement in the cover up. Had he complained about this to police  and sought them to halt such speculation, I'm sure it would have only have been seen as further "evidence" of his involvement in some quarters!
2) Dr. Amaral's official involvement ended halted in '07. I believe he certainly still follows the case and therefore has re-examined the files and other evidence or theories since then. He has more motive and than anyone else to do so! Despite this, his public pronouncements re. his main, current conclusions about the case remain unaltered from those he deduced back then. I doubt this is the result of ignorance on his part, or any attempt to mislead the public. 
3) You say the U.K has a wealth of evidence to which he is not privy. What do you think this is? 
4) I'm afraid I have seen no "Hysterical opposition" as a result of the veracity of the Smith's sighting being questioned. What I HAVE seen are attempts to ignore certain hard facts about the Smith sighting because it does not support certain theories.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Verdi on 17.02.18 12:54

@Phoebe wrote:You say the U.K has a wealth of evidence to which he is not privy. What do you think this is?

What I HAVE seen are attempts to ignore certain hard facts about the Smith sighting because it does not support certain theories.

l. The reasons why the truth behind Madeleine McCann's disappearance is being covered-up by the UK establishment and how far that cover-up extends.

2. I fear that applies to both sides of the divide.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by polyenne on 17.02.18 13:27

I’m gonna send you two to your rooms soon !

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by MayMuse on 17.02.18 14:08

I have to include that if both sides of the divide think they are "right" in their theories, surely it is only fair to Madeleine to look at hard facts and decipher those in detail, I'm not saying this hasn't been done to an extent, however apart from it was Gerry being Smithman and it wasn't Gerry being Smithman, to the Smiths are mistaken or the Smiths are telling the truth, has anyone thought that being as Mr Smith has categorically said his truth without limelight etc that if Smithman was indeed GM where does that lead... carrying Madeleine really to where? or another child to fake or give more clout to the abduction? 

And what were OG findings on the matter? I've said before is this the last throw of the dice....to either uncover the McCanns or an "abductor" who magically produces another pair of said pj's after all these years? 

 If this has been discussed can someone point me in the right direction please.

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Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by polyenne on 17.02.18 15:23

If it really was GM, and, as is the considered opinion Madeleine died some days before 3/5, I cannot understand the reasons why he would risk carrying her rigid corpse (sorry) about.

In addition, there has been some suggestion that the abduction shout was planned to have been made a short time earlier than it was so again it would seem incomprehensible that Madeleine’s body lay somewhere retrievable possibly for more than hour.

I’m still undecided as to whether it was GM but, if it was, I would not accept it was Madeleine he was carrying.

And finally, it would seem likely to me that Gonçalo Amaral has kept up to date with research on the case, mainly via the CMOMM forum and others and may well have modified his long held theory. Coupled to the fact that I believe he has more knowledge than is in the PJ Files, I suggest that he would not make that public until the right time.

That time may well be when he receives his damages (could be a long wait if the ECJ drags its feet) or when another book is published.

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Jill Havern on 17.02.18 16:34

Don't forget Dr Amaral has been kept very busy, and distracted, since he was removed from the investigation - he wrote Truth of the Lie, and at least two (or is it three?) other books; and he was embroiled in an 8 year libel battle which saw his private life/marriage ruined; plus he looked after his first wife while she was dying, and he's been ill himself... so I wonder how much time he's really spent keeping up to date on the case when he had so much other, more important, stuff going on in his shattered life...
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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by kaz on 17.02.18 16:49

@MayMuse wrote:Mark Harrison from Uk , the one who recommended the dogs I think thought the Smithman sighting was credible, so it wasn't only G.A who took it seriously.

Did Mark Harrison really think the Smithman sighting credible? I just find it strange that he would suggest the use of cadaver dogs at a later date  if he thought the sighting genuine. Nobody  abducts a dead child. What was his rationale?

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by MayMuse on 17.02.18 17:07

T
@kaz wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:Mark Harrison from Uk , the one who recommended the dogs I think thought the Smithman sighting was credible, so it wasn't only G.A who took it seriously.

Did Mark Harrison really think the Smithman sighting credible? I just find it strange that he would suggest the use of cadaver dogs at a later date  if he thought the sighting genuine. Nobody  abducts a dead child. What was his rationale?
The dogs ( Eddie and Keela) and the sighting I dont put hand in hand, I read ages ago ( can't find the link, still looking) that Mark Harrison if recall correctly, produced some form of security thing of the sightings and included Smithman as this journey correlated with the GNR dogs and then the scent was lost...So at that time he must have thought it significant, I don't know what his thoughts are now, and yes he did recommend the dogs. 

Add note, re my previous post..I don't necessarily believe it was Madeleine being carried, was asking if that scenario had been investigated and if it could be pushed any further ? Same as with  another child (to give clout to an abduction)

Edit links here but not sure if this is correct one

 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

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Robert Murat talking to David Jones, Daily Mail, 02 June 2007
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

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Re: Gemma O'Doherty: 'Maddie: Did the BBC bend the truth?'

Post by Phoebe on 17.02.18 17:52

Goncalo Amaral's woes in the form of the loss of his job, his reputation being trashed, his marriage ending and his subsequent financial hardship ALL stem from his involvement in the ongoing Madeleine saga. If anyone on earth has the motivation to keep abreast of new developments it must be him. While he has other things going on in his life (like any normal person) I would be astonished if this case and how it unfolds does not preoccupy much of his thinking. After all, if the McCanns' story is ever officially called into question by something like Op. Grange it would serve to further vindicate him! He has been interviewed  on TV many times, as recently as last year. I doubt he goes to these unprepared and not "up to speed" on developments.
Incidentally, rigour mortis is a transient state which wears off after a about 48 hours, sometimes less, in young children.
I see no conflict between Mark Harrison calling in cadaver dogs and his possible belief that the Smith sighting could have been Gerry or an abductor with Madeleine. After all, whoever the Smiths saw "with Madeleine" would have had to hide or dispose of the corpse somewhere! Abducted children are often found murdered close to where they were taken from. The dogs might have located it or confirmed an area where a human corpse had lain.

Phoebe

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