The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as many of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

Please note that when you register your username must be different from your email address!

Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by HiDeHo on 05.12.17 1:56

I created a couple of clips from the O Enigma Video


[ltr]Forensic Report Disappears - Body Fluids on Tire - Hairs Matching Maddie - Mystery Apartment[/ltr]



[ltr]Thanks to Beatriz Belchior for the translation - Subtitles for information only - please refer to official Portuguese for correct translation[/ltr]




[ltr]24 Days after Maddie's disappearance the Mccann rents a car. [/ltr]


[ltr]This car is now subject to the dogs' work. [/ltr]




[ltr]Eddie marks the corpse odor at the bottom of the driver's door, the car key and the trunk. Kella sniffs blood on the key and the boot of the rented car[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: and it is in that car that in the luggage compartment, body fluids are found. [/ltr]




[ltr]In the key was the father of the child blood and in the trunk of the car bodily fluids as if they had drained to the side of the tire [/ltr]




[ltr]and hair that the laboratory says has the coloration of Madeleine McCann's hair.[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: When do you know this car is rented and when do you start to get interested in the car? [/ltr]




[ltr]They end up leaving here from abroad and the car stays here and was used by other people in the family. They were very comfortable[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: In a first preliminary report coming from the laboratory says that they (DNA) were of the missing child but later in the final report everything disappears. [/ltr]




[ltr]They say that DNA was built, that could be built by me, by you, by your colleague, could be built by everyone and give the DNA of Madeleine McCann in the end, they said it was a very common thing that could happen[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: But PJ made sure that the exams were done in England [/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: We did not want our labs here to be called into question and to say that we had manipulated the results here. Even so, the results were manipulated. Of this we have no doubt! [/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: The hairs, until today…[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: Although these hairs have no root, it is possible for some laboratories to find out the DNA of who belonged to those hairs [/ltr]




[ltr]and it can be said later that those hairs were even of the missing child but that there was contamination through her clothes [/ltr]




[ltr]but what is strange Is that what appears there are bodily fluids related to the missing child and are the hair related to the missing child.[/ltr]




[ltr] It is not the hair of the father or the mother or the brothers. The color says is that it's hers[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: then we also have a cadaver odor on pieces, there is a search done at the house[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: Yes, there is a search made to the house that were inhabiting, the clothes were collected and the dog marks a cadaver odor on the mother's clothing[/ltr]




[ltr] and the teddy that the mother always walked with , which was the teddy from the child that disappeared[/ltr]




[ltr]Female narrator: In this line of investigation do you believe that maddie's body has been frozen[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: Notice if the car was rented months later [/ltr]




[ltr] if a death occurs long before, so that there were body fluids as if they had drained there [/ltr]




[ltr]the body when it was placed in that luggage had come from a place where it was frozen, Thaw.[/ltr]




[ltr] Because otherwise the body was mummified, dry, rotten but would not leave these fluids[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: The only explanation could be the freezing?[/ltr]


[ltr]Amaral: Most likely freezing[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: But to freeze, the girl was 3 years old ...[/ltr]


[ltr]Amaral: Having a refrigerator is enough[/ltr]




[ltr]Female narrator: And this is where the mystery apartment comes up[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: At the time there was information that they would go many nights to an apartment that would be located near the cemetery here on PDL [/ltr]




[ltr]and then in October, we knew this information, we were trying to find out what the apartment would be[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: once the child has disappeared[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: Yes, after the child disappeared and so it was one of the paths that was being investigated [/ltr]




[ltr]Another (line of investigation) was the rogatory letter for use of the dogs in the clothes of the friends, in the luggage of the friends but this was not authorized[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: Dogs went to each other's apartments [/ltr]


[ltr]...[/ltr]


[ltr]Amaral: They went to other apartments here too.[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: You always placed on the table an accident scene followed by hiding of corpse[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: This was always the most diplomatic hypothesis, not wanting to get too far into another type of scenario [/ltr]


[ltr]but moving on to a scenario of something happened, a death happened there.[/ltr]




[ltr] Let's go over here, then we'll see what will appear later because there's a moment when the child's father is out here talking to his friend[/ltr]




[ltr] and it's hypothesized that she woke up and tried to reach the window to talk to The father and may have fallen. [/ltr]




[ltr]This is the hypothesis that is put of the accident that is only and only in this chapter a mere speculation.[/ltr]




[ltr] Then there are more concrete facts like the use of the capol and what effects it may have had or not. [/ltr]




[ltr]We have no doubt that those children were put to sleep with this type of medicine. [/ltr]




[ltr]What has happened because of this, I do not know if it's late to find out but it's a line of research that has to be followed[/ltr]




[ltr]Subtitles: When did you know that the police had discovered blood in the apartment how do you reacted?[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: But is there another line that can be followed, that of homicide? Can not be dismiss?[/ltr]




[ltr]Amaral: The public ministry even speaks of homicide, of me you never heard of homicide and will never hear[/ltr]




[ltr]Female reporter: You have a strong conviction that was not ...[/ltr]


[ltr]Amaral: It is not a matter of having convictions, the indications that I have looked at them and the report that makes the context of the suspicions of the police is this:[/ltr]




[ltr] That here has occurred a death, in principle, accidental and nothing more than this, followed by a corpse concealment. [/ltr]




[ltr]The rest is a line of inquiry that has to be continued [/ltr]




[ltr]Female narrator: these were the convictions of Portuguese and English researchers in September 2007[/ltr]


[ltr][/ltr]






[ltr]
Questions about David Payne - CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma



Female narrator: And inside this apartment, on the afternoon of May 3, 2007 David Payne would have been around 6:30 in the afternoon.


He says he went to see if Kate needed help with the children. The friend claims to have seen Maddie Mccann at 06:30 p.m. here with her mother and the twins

David Payne one of the friends who was vacationing with the Mccann couple is the big enigmatic figure in this investigation
33:05.00

Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath, but when he arrived here they had already showered.

Some say he took 30 minutes ..

Female reporter: Who says?

Amaral: The father of the child (Gerry). David says it only took 30 seconds.

It was hard to hear him in statements.

It was in England and was not in the presence of the Portuguese police, he says that when he saw the children they were immaculate angels.
33:30.00

Speaking in immaculate angels is a little strange

David Payne is the most enigmatic figure in this story

The figures that two years earlier raises suspicions to another couple, because of what he was saying about the child who disappeared

Female reporter: What did he say?

Amaral: According to the police report made in England ... the person (Gaspar) after having verified what was happening and that David Payne was here,

went to the police of free will and says that two years before in Majorca, seated at the table in the Garden, Maddie would have been a year and a half,

(David) would have asked the child's father (Gerry) if she did this and touching his nipple and it frightened her

34:34.00 and said to her husband: this guy will never gives a bath to my daughters))

He (David) had this paranoia, this interest in bathing the children of others

Female reporter: At that moment how Madeleine's father react?

Amaral: That's in her statements. He Do not have a great reaction, he was not shocked

Female reporter: Do you know of this complaint when?

Amaral: When I am about to leave the investigation there is a mail coming from England

35:11 about another kind of subject and in the middle someone put those statements.

Someone said this is here look what it is.

Female reporter: That is, was the Portuguese police supposed to never know?

Amaral: Never know

Female reporter: Yet David Payne and Maddie's father were old acquaintances?

Amaral: They say yes. We could not find out anything

Female reporter: What do you know about David Payne?

Amaral: We know what I told you before, he was who organized the trips here and the other holidays as well, who had this bathing fetish

35:53.00 of the other couples children who accompanied them on vacation.

As early as 4th of May, in the morning, there is a British social worker who was nearby who came here to give support,

to tell the couple not to talk too much with the media and saw this individual.

Shortly after sighting the individual she was kick off literally and in the statements she gives the police is that she knew David Payne of lawsuits in England.

She do not know if he was a witness or suspect. This line of inquiry we also never knew the result in England


Female narrator: David Payne is only heard in England.

------------------
 












[/ltr]

avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher

Posts : 2732
Reputation : 796
Join date : 2010-05-07

View user profile http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by BlueBag on 05.12.17 6:54

Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath,..

Where did he get this information?

If it's really based on anything we are in nonce territory.
avatar
BlueBag

Posts : 4439
Reputation : 2248
Join date : 2014-06-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by BlueBag on 05.12.17 10:33

@BlueBag wrote:
Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath,..

Where did he get this information?

If it's really based on anything we are in nonce territory.
Anyone?

There is no way that this came from Kate McCann or David Payne.

So where has Amaral got that from? 

Has he extrapolated some other statement?

I've seen nothing that would suggest that.
avatar
BlueBag

Posts : 4439
Reputation : 2248
Join date : 2014-06-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 05.12.17 11:01

Another quote from Amaral: "It would be interesting to know the reason why Mr David Payne is not taking part in the reconstitution. He might explain for how long he bathed the children and at what time."
avatar
Get'emGonçalo


Posts : 10740
Reputation : 5267
Join date : 2009-11-25
Location : parallel universe

View user profile http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Verdi on 05.12.17 12:14

@BlueBag wrote:
Amaral: David Payne comes here to help the child's mother to give them bath,..

Where did he get this information?

If it's really based on anything we are in nonce territory.
.... and from where did he get this information?


As early as 4th of May, in the morning, there is a British social worker who was nearby who came here to give support,

to tell the couple not to talk too much with the media and saw this individual.

Shortly after sighting the individual she was kick off literally and in the statements she gives the police is that she knew David Payne of lawsuits in England.

She do not know if he was a witness or suspect. This line of inquiry we also never knew the result in England

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 7019
Reputation : 3617
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Verdi on 05.12.17 12:18

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Another quote from Amaral: "It would be interesting to know the reason why Mr David Payne is not taking part in the reconstitution. He might explain for how long he bathed the children and at what time."
I want to know why David Payne and his wife Fiona were not re-interviewed by the PJ along with the rest of the group (excluding Kate McCann who was too traumatized - apparently) on 10/11th May 2007.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 7019
Reputation : 3617
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 05.12.17 12:20

I seem to remember Linda McQueen mentioned something aswell about David Payne and the bathtime routines.

I was trying to find it on my blog this morning...there was a link to a Correio da Manhã article but the link doesn't work anymore.
avatar
Get'emGonçalo


Posts : 10740
Reputation : 5267
Join date : 2009-11-25
Location : parallel universe

View user profile http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Verdi on 05.12.17 12:34

I've always had a gut feeling that Snr Amaral was being diplomatic when theorizing on little Madeleine's fate.  Snipped from interview..


Female reporter: You always placed on the table an accident scene followed by hiding of corpse.


Amaral: This was always the most diplomatic hypothesis, not wanting to get too far into another type of scenario.
------

Female reporter: But is there another line that can be followed, that of homicide? Can not be dismiss?

Amaral: The public ministry even speaks of homicide, of me you never heard of homicide and will never hear.

Female reporter: You have a strong conviction that was not ...

Amaral: It is not a matter of having convictions, the indications that I have looked at them and the report that makes the context of the suspicions of the police is this.

That here has occurred a death, in principle, accidental and nothing more than this, followed by a corpse concealment.

The rest is a line of inquiry that has to be continued.



Taking into consideration the keen interest shown in David Payne, I think Snr Amaral was thinking on the same lines as many an observer of this case - it's no wonder he was taken off the case, for some paltry excuse of a reason!  All those out there who argue in favour of a death by fatal accident because Gonçalo Amaral said so, really need to read between the lines!

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 7019
Reputation : 3617
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by ChippyM on 05.12.17 13:23

In Katerina Gaspar's statement she says ;

"during our holiday in Majorca, each parent would bath the children in turn. I was keen to stay near the bathroom if Dave was bathing the children.


I remember I said to Savio to be careful and close by if Dave was helping to bathe the children and my daughter in particular"


  I wonder if this is what G. Amraral was working off - previous behaviour on holiday?

  It's all very odd anyway, one or more adults on a group holiday possibly convincing the others they should take turns bathing everyone else's children.

ChippyM

Posts : 1290
Reputation : 426
Join date : 2013-06-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Verdi on 05.12.17 13:42

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:I seem to remember Linda McQueen mentioned something aswell about David Payne and the bathtime routines.

I was trying to find it on my blog this morning...there was a link to a Correio da Manhã article but the link doesn't work anymore.

Linda McQueen with Gerry McCann


"The family had a great routine - their mealtimes, bedtimes and bathtimes in particular were great fun."


http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/is-dr-david-payne-formerly-of-leicester.html


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/16_09_2007.htm

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 7019
Reputation : 3617
Join date : 2015-02-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Phoebe on 05.12.17 13:43

I think Dr. Amaral was being diplomatic about the accident, perhaps in hopes that this was something more likely to elicit an admission of death and of staging an abduction. I believe two scenarios crossed his mind. First, homicide. He states that this had been mentioned but is clear that he will not make that accusation himself. Second he shows interest in Payne, his alleged penchant for bathing other peoples children and the Gaspar statements. I have always felt the "fell off the sofa" theory was intended to make it easier for them to admit to covering up a death - "It was an accident and we panicked".
avatar
Phoebe

Posts : 576
Reputation : 652
Join date : 2017-03-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by HiDeHo on 05.12.17 15:13

There are a couple of things I would like to mention...

PLEASE refer to the original Portuguese and confirm the translations with other translators.

Beatrix offered to translate such a important video but had NO idea the difficulties involved and spent many, many hours over a week doing her best while maintaining her busy personal life.  I was SO grateful to her and though she asked me to correct some of the interpretations from Portuguese to English, I was in no way capable of understanding the context so left them as passed to me.

I didn't release the translation for that reason.

We did the best we could manage to get the video out as soon as possible, while recognising the translation wasn't perfect, hence I added the disclaimer.

If ANYONE could check it, particularly in the areas of concern I would be grateful.  It concerns me that some comments are taken and discussed without confirmation against the Portuguese.

Regarding the comments made by Goncalo Amaral.

In any research and conclusions I come to I always make sure I have a link to the files.  That is important to me, but I realised very early (especially while adding translations to videos) that Goncalo comments on things NOT in the files but, as he has told us MANY times.... he knows a lot more, so I try to retain those comments for reference.

Although I try to 'stick to the files' in any discussion, I always consider Goncalo comments as being of value, and he has made MANY comments that are of value that could change the direction of discussions.

One comment in particular that I have brought up in discussions many times, but has, so far, basically been 'ignored' is something that I find is HUGE....

In his 'Return to PdL' video he claims that (apart from Paynes) that they ALL went in through the patio doors and that is the reason that Janes observation of the 'abductor' sounded 'hollow'.



In other words, they didnt believe Jane because she never used the front entrance and therefor could not have seen the abductor as claimed.

He is telling us that the INVESTIGATION determined this and its not just a slip of the tongue from himself.

I find that knowledge HUGE because, if correct, then that gives more credence to my thoughts that the children were not 'neglected' and likely had someone in the apartment to open the patio doors for others....

Of course this leads to more credence of something happening earlier, because there really was no need for the so called 'checks' and in reality was likely a week very different to what they try to tell us happened (hence the rogatories being so difficult to understand...noone wanted to lie but by doing so they sounded incapable of correct English)

Back to these videos....

I have always tried to stay clear of David Payne issues as discussions could lead to a lot of speculation and we didnt have a lot of confirmation of the subject, but I now have three (or more) videos of Goncalo discussing this subject, as in the video above (and others) along with comments from Sofia Leal about the subject.

NOTE: Lets not forget that Rachael claimed that Ella was bathed in her apartment.  Quite important in understanding the issues of bathing that Goncalo refers to)

Although I recognise we cannot use Goncalo Amaral comments as any 'proof', we can be sure that he knows so much more than we have been told in the files and in conversation with interviewers he may not be aware that those comments were not included in the files.










I feel that it would be important to have a thread highlighting his comments, not otherwise available to us in the files and I will attempt to do that.

Regarding Yvonne Martin... yes... Goncalo Has referred to her in interviews and there was some very odd things that happened.  Don't quote me yet, but I recall she showed up for interviews and yet was not interviewed (at least as far as we know)

Translated interviews can potentially give us a whole wealth of 'believable' information and may be something that would be of interest to discuss while its so very quiet on the case.

I will do my best to put a new thread together to include some of his comments that have not been discussed or are little known.

Body fluids leaking on to the tire has not been mentioned in the files but Goncalo has told us of this many times...




For now, PLEASE make sure that important discussions on comments are based on 'confirmed' translations
avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher

Posts : 2732
Reputation : 796
Join date : 2010-05-07

View user profile http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by NickE on 05.12.17 16:35

Is Amaral still under an injunction?
If yes, when is he allowed to speak out?

____________________
When asked if people will ever learn what really happened, Mr Amaral responded: “Yes, we will, when MI5 opens the case files, we will find out".
avatar
NickE

Posts : 1072
Reputation : 362
Join date : 2013-10-27
Age : 42

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Phoebe on 05.12.17 18:45

"We have no doubt that those children were put to sleep with this type of medicine"

Dr. Amaral does seem to believe the children were given something to make them sleep. He has said (according to the translation) on another T.V. show for the tenth anniversary that he believes ALL the parents were at it.
 In this particular broadcast he is asked to clarify if he thinks this applied to all the couples and he emphatically replies "All, all"
Like HiDeHo, I too, have  been struck by his claim that it was the patio doors which Jane and the others used to enter for checking purposes. It could be that they all shared the " Like eating in the back garden" belief. 
avatar
Phoebe

Posts : 576
Reputation : 652
Join date : 2017-03-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.17 3:05

Further up on this thread, I suggested it was Yvonne Marti that was turned away from statements...

Regarding Yvonne Martin... yes... Goncalo Has referred to her in interviews and there was some very odd things that happened. Don't quote me yet, but I recall she showed up for interviews and yet was not interviewed (at least as far as we know)

It was Katherina Gaspar, apparently

(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.

But that person (Dr. Katherina Gaspar) was not questioned because she was not present at the police headquarters when the questioning took place. Rather conveniently, she only arrived (or was made to arrive) after the Portuguese police had already left the premises (…)
avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher

Posts : 2732
Reputation : 796
Join date : 2010-05-07

View user profile http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by BlueBag on 07.12.17 10:22

The British Police appear to be scuppering the PJ investigation.

They specifically asked for the Gaspers to be interviewed and it didn't happen.

I wonder if OG interviewed them?

(Silly question).
avatar
BlueBag

Posts : 4439
Reputation : 2248
Join date : 2014-06-06

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Tony Bennett on 07.12.17 10:28

I am afraid that this thread reveals the extent to which Amaral was, and remains, bound by the PJ' s view (see upthread) that Madeleine died after 6pm on 3 May. The decision to believe Cat Baker re the high tea was a critical, if understandable, error. This error, in turn, as we can see from Amaral's interview upthread, led him into the further error of assuming they were leaving the children every evening and checking on them periodically. Whereas for 4 days they were probably planning the abduction hoax.

____________________

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" - Paul's first letter to his disciple Timothy,  1 Timothy 1 v 15

avatar
Tony Bennett
Researcher

Posts : 14794
Reputation : 2912
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 70
Location : Shropshire

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.17 11:56

http://videos.sapo.pt/ZfezM51zoMc2moZwOGZP

THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MADELEINE McCANN: A CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION (Part One) wrote:
(P): We also have this individual’s profile ready to go through in a moment but first (here addressing FMF) what we have here is a great discrepancy, is it not? (From) thirty seconds to thirty minutes, the difference is brutal!

(FMF): It is indeed – and it is very odd too. It is rather strange (bizarre) that in the nucleus of a group of friends, one of them bathes the children of the others – and all that seems entirely natural to them! Worst of all,  none of the detectives (past and present) interpellates this state of affairs from an investigative standpoint.

Bathing our children is something that lies in a region we might describe as very personal, of a deep affective bond (…)

(GA): Interrupts. “I think there is a denunciation (report) about …” (unclear).

(P): We will get there. We have that prepared…

(FMP): This (kind of scenario) is important to us as parents – and by the way, we are all parents here so –  surely it would seem bizarre to any of us, to have someone from outside our families come  to bath our children for us !

(P): Of course! We will address that in a moment.

(FMF): (wrapping up) And therefore, (in this case) a reconstruction was necessary to clarify what such a state of affairs was all about.

(P): Gonçalo Amaral, concerning this serious doubt  –  that is, the time this person (Payne) stayed in the McCann’s apartment – surely, at the time of your investigation, doubts must have been raised about how long this person stayed in the apartment, no?

(GA): Those doubts are (referred to) in an interim report elaborated by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida in September 2007 – and are clearly outlined (in that report) along with some conclusions drawn from them.

(Incidentally, this is) the very same report the parents of this child, and their lawyers, deeply dislike. They argue it is just old stuff, old history”, but history can be relevant (to understand events).

Translators’ note:  “history” and “story” are homophones in Portuguese.

It was after all this doctor (Dr. David Payne) who, on behalf of his friends, had organized this trip to the Ocean Club (adding) as he had organized others for them before.

(And it is interesting to note in this context that) that  ten days after the event in May  (Madeleine McCann’s disappearance), we have two other doctors – the Gaspars – denouncing him to the police in England.  These doctors were friends who, in the past , had spent (at least) a holiday together with him (David Payne and the McCanns’) and yet did not hesitate to report him to the police.

(P): We also have that topic prepared …

(GA): Here we seem to have a state of affairs that, on occasion, has driven me to speculate about the whys  and wherefores of what exactly lies behind all this…

Translators’ note: GA is possibly referring here to the governmental and diplomatic interference, the ever present public relations and the on-going  reputation management of Madeleine’s disappearance.

(We know) there are many children which have gone missing in England – but in no other instance has the British Government preoccupied itself with them – certainly nothing like to the extent that they have done with this child!

Of course, one may assume this was because the parents were doctors (and it may have been perceived as if the British medical establishment was on trial) but I would still  ask – why all this governmental interference ?

I do question myself and, I must stress, the reason may not have anything to do with  it (the disappearance) as such.  I often question myself about what exactly went on and what is still  going on (..).

I will put it to you very directly – and yet after careful consideration. They (the English and Portuguese Police) are now looking for a paedophile outside of that group (the McCanns’ and their friends) – but what if there was a paedophile within that group?  Now, someone might wish to argue I am calling him a paedophile, but I am not. Not at all.

The fact remains,  there was a very serious denunciation (two witness statements) to the police (English), which contained very serious accusations against someone (Payne); (a report) and that eventually reached Portugal “through half-open doors and crossways” (suggesting the English purposefully delayed them). I could explain it to you in all detail but …

(P):  We also have that story prepared …

(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.

Translators’ note: “rogatory letter”: a request by the Portuguese Justice Minister to the British Home Secretary for the Police to interview certain witnesses. The Portuguese authorities submitted their names (Gaspars) and tried to have them re-interviewed in England…

But that person (Dr. Katherina Gaspar) was not questioned because she was not present at the police headquarters when the questioning took place. Rather conveniently, she only arrived  (or was made to arrive) after the Portuguese police had already left the premises (…)

http://videos.sapo.pt/ZfezM51zoMc2moZwOGZP
THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MADELEINE McCANN: A CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION (Part Two) wrote:(P): So, these allegations  which were reported to the police in England,  were never taken into account in the investigation …

(GA): Hmm, this is very interesting. No (they were never taken into account) and I will explain (why) …

(P): (interrupts) This was never investigated !?

(GA): I am going to elaborate on it if I may, for  your benefit,  and for those who are watching the programme.

From  May (2007) onwards, we became aware of information (coming in) from our British colleagues about something (very odd) that had happened within that group during a holiday (in Mallorca). They  never told us specifically what . (We knew) it was something to do with Madeleine but, they (British colleaagues) never gave us any details.

Some time later – and by then I had already been removed from the investigation and reassigned to Faro (police headquarters) – and for no specific reason, except it  reminded me of the “we can’t tell you attitude”  (of our British partners);  a fax  (from the UK police) arrived in Portimão (PJ headquarters)  ostensibly about some other matter  – and this, by the way, is all (clearly stated) in the process; this is all clearly stated in the investigation process files –  and, attached to this fax, (which was conspicuously about some other subject) were  the statements of  Dr. Katherina Gaspar and her husband  – which had been made to the British Police (months before)!

(Oddly enough) these statements  (Gaspars’) were not  referred to in the main communication (either in the heading or the text of the fax).

(I could well take an educated guess and say) the Gaspars’ statements entered the process by the grace of a (British) colleague who was probably fed-up of hiding what he had been told to conceal …

And it is very strange not  to see anyone on behalf of the family – I mean the family of the missing child – showing any concern, any interest in these allegations ! And I don’t see anyone from Scotland Yard preoccupied in clarifying these, either!

Recently, they were talking about paedophile networks in Albufeira (Algarve) and I ask:  What if there was a paedophile in the very middle of this group?

I do not know if the Gaspars’ denunciation is relevant! I have no idea if the gentleman in question is a paedophile or not , but if we ask ourselves if his behaviour was odd, we have to admit it was very odd!

Now concerning the British senior social assistant (Yvonne Martin) what she said was, that the person she saw in Praia da Luz (when trying to assist the McCanns’) had already passed through her hands (been seen by her in some files) either as a witness or a suspect. She recognized him afterwards from a photo (shown to her by the police).

In spite of this, when  the British police was questioned by the PJ about David Payne, they replied (insisted) this gentleman had no records (on their files).

The fact is, this gentleman was the one who organized the group’s trip (to Praia da Luz); it was he who, for years, had been bathing the children, (including) the little girls of the other couples and – as is contained in the investigation files – had gone to the (McCanns’) apartment that afternoon, to see if Kate needed help with the children. Furthermore, it was he who that (very same) afternoon,  (helped to) gave bath to his own daughters, while his wife went for a jog on the beach (…)

(In summary), he is the one who, over the years, had the preoccupation about bathing the children of the other couples (…) I do not know if this is normal, if it is part of British culture or not, but I do not think it is.

The gestures he made in Mallorca were (potentially) very serious (leads) particularly since these gestures related to Madeleine!

The gestures – according to the report  of  Dr. Katherina Gaspar , who (by the way)  is herself a medical doctor so… if in this case we have to show respect to  the couple and their friends because they are doctors (least we are found guilty of lèse majesté), then we should remember (this witness) is a medical doctor as well – and her husband too!

The gestures (made by David Payne) were aimed  at Madeleine, and Dr. Katherina Gaspar was shocked when she witnessed them – it was not just the gestures, but the very question he (David Payne) poses to the father (Gerry McCann) right in his presence!

This evidence (the Gaspars denunciation ) has never been denied by anyone, anywhere – not least by any of those concerned. It is as if it never happened and then, (much later), it arrives in the process (unexpectedly) in the manner in which it did (…)

And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters  which were drafted around October-November (2007)!  Nor (for that matter) were they later included  into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England.

In my opinion, the (Gaspars) are a couple that should have been heard in the investigation – particularly since this was something (a state of affairs) about which they promptly contacted the police in England – exactly when they see that person (David Payne)  on TV (just) ten days after the (fateful) event.

(repeats) When Dr. Katherina Gaspar sees him (David Payne) on the TV, she realizes who this person was – and she felt very strongly, that she simply  had to report him to the British police – but all this information was withheld from the Portuguese police (…)

(P): (addressing Francisco Moita Flores) Surely a suspicion (an allegation) of this type, with such characteristics and, moreover, witnessed by  members of their own profession  should have been investigated!

(FMF):  Of course they should! In fact (almost) everything that has resurfaced in this reconstruction is of such gravity, that I think  the only (rightful) thing for the PJ and the Public Prosecutor to do, would be to request this footage from CMTV – and while they are at it, examine the reconstruction done by the BBC  “Crimewatch” as well –  and, then, try to explain, how so many questions like these were left unanswered! Questions of such (gravity) critical importance! Questions that could involve paedophilia, sexual abuses …

https://zizipresscuts.wordpress.com/category/translations-2/madeleine-mccann-disappearance-crime-scene-reconstruction/page/5/



CATEGORY: MADELEINE MCCANN DISAPPEARANCE: CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION June 8, 2014 DR. GONÇALO AMARAL ON SCOTLAND YARD’S “MEDIA STAGING” IN PRAIA DA LUZ Full version here: wrote:If the investigation that is now taking place is a serious one – and I am inclined to believe it could be because there are serious people involved in it – at least on the Portuguese side of the investigation… here we have quite number of people (genuinely) interested in solving this case…

But for that to happen, they must first take into account important elements they have put aside (or ignored). Particularly in what concerns that group of people (the McCanns and their friends).

No point in them talking about paedophiles, serial predators in the Algarve – from Vila Moura to Praia da Luz – I am hearing now of 18 cases! Cases which are not even filed with our police!

Furthermore, around that time, there was already considerable awareness in the police for these type of crimes. We had the Casa Pia case in Lisbon and the Joana case nearby, so to suggest our police suppressed all these and then to come out with all these stories, is mind-boggling.

Let us stop for a moment and think. Let us think objectively and see what in fact is there (…)

And what is there (in the process) is a report to the British police of an English couple (*) which says (words to that effect) a certain gentleman, two years (before the crime) expressed certain thoughts and made certain gestures towards the missing child highly suggestive of paedophilia (cannot think of a fancy word to put it otherwise)…

(*) Translators’ note: Dr. Gonçalo Amaral is, no doubt, referring here to the Gaspars’ report to the English police – a report that was withheld from the Portuguese investigators (…) The Gaspars’ were a couple of medical doctors who, two years prior to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, had spent a holiday in Majorca together with the McCanns’, David Payne and other friends.

(JF): Are you referring to David Payne – a friend of the McCanns’ family?

(GA): Yes, I am. And now, I hear that gentleman (Andy Redwood) talking about a thieve who broke into houses and then (believe it or not) lied next to children in bed. No doubt he considers such acts as paedophilia and the question I pose (to him) is this:

Aren’t those (David Payne’s) gestures and words reported by those two doctors to the English authorities about that holiday in Majorca, as stated in the process et etcetera (overstates) suggestive of paedophilia?

What happened to those statements? I ask. What are they looking for now?

Let us first investigate properly what is there in the process.

That so far, has not been done – certainly not in the rogatory letter (one and only) the PJ went to carry out in England. The Gaspars’ report has never been addressed.

(JF): It is then your conviction this gentleman, David Payne – of the McCanns’ inner circle of friends – or indeed the McCanns’ themselves, could have had have anything to do with what happened to the child?

(GA): Well, I have written a book about the case in which I expressed my own opinion and that of the Judiciary Police at the time.

(JF interrupts): ? At the time you wrote the book, right?

(GA continues). The book is based on a police report which, by the way, is in the process (case files).

Those are the conclusions we had arrived at; and the conclusions we arrived at did not suggest a kidnapping. (The evidence suggested) anything else but a kidnapping – possibly an accidental death followed by an occultation of the body.

However, it is important to underline, that although the investigation had reached an advanced stage, it was not closed – some details needed to be looked into.

A reconstruction and other diligences were needed. For instance, interviewing that couple of medical doctors who reported Dr. David Payne to the English police (…)

A number of elements needed to be addressed, including those they are now deliberately ignoring.

It is as if they are saying: “Let’s forget all that, let’s leave that behind and concentrate on something else instead! (said with irony) – which leaves me with the impression they are following some kind of agenda (obviously).




May 19, 2014 MADDIE: SEVEN YEARS ON – A CMTV SPECIAL (Second Half) wrote: P): What about Scotland Yard? Have they jumped on the (McCanns’) bandwagon too?

(GA) Look! While Scotland Yard does not disclose that mystery within The Mystery and investigates David Payne’s; the substance of that complaint (against him by two of his medical colleagues – the Gaspars’); a complaint highly suggestive of paedophilia, then (…)

I mean it is not someone, a burglar intent on stealing – as it has been assumed – who then lies next to (…) and (…)

We are talking here of someone, asking the father of the child, Mr. Gerald Mc Cann, both in words and accompanying obscene gestures, if Madeleine did certain things!

There are reputable witnesses for this! Witnesses who as early as the 12 of May (2007) reported what they saw to the English police! The very same police who then failed to report this to us – it was only much later, in October that year, that an odd fax reached us but (I digress) that story has already been told.

So, let us try to understand whom we are dealing with here!

Is it just the fear of having abandoning their children that led to their pact – having left their children alone throughout the week at their own account and risk? Is it just that or was there something else? That is what needs to be (probed into and) understood.

Ask yourself what kind of impact this could have on British Society? What kind of damage it could inflict? I have no idea, but surely, this is something that…

(P): (interrupts) But what motives would Scotland Yard have to condone, to side with the parents?

(GA): Let us try to find out why! Let Scotland Yard come forward and explain to us why they do not investigate this report (against David Payne) – for example.

Let they come out and deny such complaint ever existed or (if they prefer), let them come out, and confirm such report did exist and then, explain why they do not investigate it. May be this individual is above the law! I don’t know.

(P): And while they are at it, all the other anomalies too.

(GA): This person was the one who besides the language and gestures reported to the police, was in the habit of bathing the children of others – mostly toddlers (…)

Let me tell you just one more thing, I think is important in the midst of all this.

https://zizipresscuts.wordpress.com/category/translations-2/madeleine-mccann-disappearance-crime-scene-reconstruction/page/3/




December 26, 2013 THE DISAPPEARANCE OF MADELEINE McCANN: A CRIME SCENE RECONSTRUCTION (Part Two) wrote:(P): So, these allegations which were reported to the police in England, were never taken into account in the investigation …

(GA): Hmm, this is very interesting. No (they were never taken into account) and I will explain (why) …

(P): (interrupts) This was never investigated !?

(GA): I am going to elaborate on it if I may, for your benefit, and for those who are watching the programme.

From May (2007) onwards, we became aware of information (coming in) from our British colleagues about something (very odd) that had happened within that group during a holiday (in Mallorca). They never told us specifically what . (We knew) it was something to do with Madeleine but, they (British colleaagues) never gave us any details.

Some time later – and by then I had already been removed from the investigation and reassigned to Faro (police headquarters) – and for no specific reason, except it reminded me of the “we can’t tell you attitude” (of our British partners); a fax (from the UK police) arrived in Portimão (PJ headquarters) ostensibly about some other matter – and this, by the way, is all (clearly stated) in the process; this is all clearly stated in the investigation process files – and, attached to this fax, (which was conspicuously about some other subject) were the statements of Dr. Katherina Gaspar and her husband – which had been made to the British Police (months before)!

(Oddly enough) these statements (Gaspars’) were not referred to in the main communication (either in the heading or the text of the fax).

(I could well take an educated guess and say) the Gaspars’ statements entered the process by the grace of a (British) colleague who was probably fed-up of hiding what he had been told to conceal …

And it is very strange not to see anyone on behalf of the family – I mean the family of the missing child – showing any concern, any interest in these allegations ! And I don’t see anyone from Scotland Yard preoccupied in clarifying these, either!

Recently, they were talking about paedophile networks in Albufeira (Algarve) and I ask: What if there was a paedophile in the very middle of this group?

I do not know if the Gaspars’ denunciation is relevant! I have no idea if the gentleman in question is a paedophile or not , but if we ask ourselves if his behaviour was odd, we have to admit it was very odd!

Now concerning the British senior social assistant (Yvonne Martin) what she said was, that the person she saw in Praia da Luz (when trying to assist the McCanns’) had already passed through her hands (been seen by her in some files) either as a witness or a suspect. She recognized him afterwards from a photo (shown to her by the police).

In spite of this, when the British police was questioned by the PJ about David Payne, they replied (insisted) this gentleman had no records (on their files).

The fact is, this gentleman was the one who organized the group’s trip (to Praia da Luz); it was he who, for years, had been bathing the children, (including) the little girls of the other couples and – as is contained in the investigation files – had gone to the (McCanns’) apartment that afternoon, to see if Kate needed help with the children. Furthermore, it was he who that (very same) afternoon, (helped to) gave bath to his own daughters, while his wife went for a jog on the beach (…)

(In summary), he is the one who, over the years, had the preoccupation about bathing the children of the other couples (…) I do not know if this is normal, if it is part of British culture or not, but I do not think it is.

The gestures he made in Mallorca were (potentially) very serious (leads) particularly since these gestures related to Madeleine!

The gestures – according to the report of Dr. Katherina Gaspar , who (by the way) is herself a medical doctor so… if in this case we have to show respect to the couple and their friends because they are doctors (least we are found guilty of lèse majesté), then we should remember (this witness) is a medical doctor as well – and her husband too!

The gestures (made by David Payne) were aimed at Madeleine, and Dr. Katherina Gaspar was shocked when she witnessed them – it was not just the gestures, but the very question he (David Payne) poses to the father (Gerry McCann) right in his presence!

This evidence (the Gaspars denunciation ) has never been denied by anyone, anywhere – not least by any of those concerned. It is as if it never happened and then, (much later), it arrives in the process (unexpectedly) in the manner in which it did (…)

And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters which were drafted around October-November (2007)! Nor (for that matter) were they later included into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England.

In my opinion, the (Gaspars) are a couple that should have been heard in the investigation – particularly since this was something (a state of affairs) about which they promptly contacted the police in England – exactly when they see that person (David Payne) on TV (just) ten days after the (fateful) event.

(repeats) When Dr. Katherina Gaspar sees him (David Payne) on the TV, she realizes who this person was – and she felt very strongly, that she simply had to report him to the British police – but all this information was withheld from the Portuguese police (…)

(P): (addressing Francisco Moita Flores) Surely a suspicion (an allegation) of this type, with such characteristics and, moreover, witnessed by members of their own profession should have been investigated!

(FMF): Of course they should! In fact (almost) everything that has resurfaced in this reconstruction is of such gravity, that I think the only (rightful) thing for the PJ and the Public Prosecutor to do, would be to request this footage from CMTV – and while they are at it, examine the reconstruction done by the BBC “Crimewatch” as well – and, then, try to explain, how so many questions like these were left unanswered! Questions of such (gravity) critical importance! Questions that could involve paedophilia, sexual abuses

https://zizipresscuts.wordpress.com/category/translations-2/madeleine-mccann-disappearance-crime-scene-reconstruction/page/5/
avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher

Posts : 2732
Reputation : 796
Join date : 2010-05-07

View user profile http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Phoebe on 07.12.17 12:12

(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.


"And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters  which were drafted around October-November (2007)!  Nor (for that matter) were they later included  into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England"





I find the above seemingly contradictory statements confusing. Could anyone please clarify?
avatar
Phoebe

Posts : 576
Reputation : 652
Join date : 2017-03-01

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.17 12:32

@Phoebe wrote:(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.


"And these (statements), do not even arrive in time to be included in the rogatory letters  which were drafted around October-November (2007)!  Nor (for that matter) were they later included  into the amended round of rogatory letters the PJ tried to carried out in England"





I find the above seemingly contradictory statements confusing. Could anyone please clarify?


My understanding is that the Gaspars statements were given to Leicester police in May but were not shared with Portugal until October (after GA was removed)

They arrived in a fax, with no header to suggest they were included in the fax

Goncalo suggests 'someone' wanted it known and included them in the fax.

They should have been interrviewed in the rogatory interviews but for some reason, although Katherina Gaspar showed up for the interviews, the police had left the building and she was not interviewed.



(GA): I ask my self what is going on in here. I find it all rather enigmatic, particularly since those people (Drs. Katherina and Arul Gaspar) were not interviewed despite being listed in the “rogatory letter”.

But that person (Dr. Katherina Gaspar) was not questioned because she was not present at the police headquarters when the questioning took place. Rather conveniently, she only arrived (or was made to arrive) after the Portuguese police had already left the premises (…)
avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher

Posts : 2732
Reputation : 796
Join date : 2010-05-07

View user profile http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by HiDeHo on 07.12.17 13:47

@Tony Bennett wrote:I am afraid that this thread reveals the extent to which Amaral was, and remains, bound by the PJ' s view (see upthread) that Madeleine died after 6pm on 3 May. The decision to believe Cat Baker re the high tea was a critical, if understandable, error. This error, in turn, as we can see from Amaral's interview upthread, led him into the further error of assuming they were leaving the children every evening and checking on them periodically. Whereas for 4 days they were probably planning the abduction hoax.


Goncalo Amaral was removed after 5 months on October 2 2007...so he would not be privy to the following 9 months of investigation including the rogatory statements, which only were sent (translated) to PJ a month before the shelving.

He has made it very clear that he is not stating his opinion, its according to the investigation




The investigation had a witness statement from Catriona  which was very generic and did not mention (in the first statement) a specific time, so the creche records were likely the indication of when she was last seen.

I have always believed that regardless of any opinion, the investigation would have to follow the information given in statements, but it may be possible that questions about the creche records, later in the investigation, could have indicated a different picture as suggested by Hernani Carvalho

avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher

Posts : 2732
Reputation : 796
Join date : 2010-05-07

View user profile http://forum2.aimoo.com/MadeleineMcCann

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by polyenne on 07.12.17 14:09

The paedophilia angle is interesting for many reasons and I've counted it and discounted it too many times !

Paedophiles will search out and befriend other like-minded people. It is an underground covert activity that requires care to ensure that cover is not broken. It would be extraordinary if there were a single paedophile, within a group of parents with small girls, where that group socialized and holidayed together, and a single person regularly bathed said young children and that that sort of activity was seen as normal. Not wishing to assume that all paedophiles are men but it would be deeply disturbing to accept that the wives/partners of the men in the group were fully aware of the situation. If they weren't accepting of the situation, what would stop them.......blackmail ?    

In other words, it is highly probable that others in that group were also paedophiles.

Turning to this particular case, let's assume the "checking" routine was in place.....how many times did the men do the rotational "checking" as opposed to the women ? And let's assume that the children might all have been in the same room....possibly sedated. Was this a planned pre-season convention for such people ? Is that why there were many other people, from all walks of life (some very well off, who hot-footed it away) at that particular resort at that particular week ? All surrounded by "pretty blonde girls"
avatar
polyenne

Posts : 441
Reputation : 320
Join date : 2017-03-31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Two Clips from CMTV Gonçalo Amaral - O Enigma with translations - UPDATE Dec 7 Further Interview Quotes RE: David Payne

Post by Mark Willis on 07.12.17 14:17

Ocean Club like a budget Lollita Express to Epstein Orgy Island?
Didn't Hodge's nephew Edmonds high tail it out of Luz by private jet 04:05:07?
avatar
Mark Willis

Posts : 313
Reputation : 116
Join date : 2014-05-14
Age : 62
Location : Beverley

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum