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Post by worriedmum on 05.05.20 22:47

It doesn't have to contain tennis racquets to be a 'sports  bag'. Their size and shape makes them easy to put in overhead lockers on the plane for example , when a hard bodied case would be cumbersome. 

I did wonder if it was the bag that contains the travel cot. They are very similar to sports bags but in my experience less rigid.

Verdi are you saying that the photo above is not an official PJ one?
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Post by sharonl on 06.05.20 0:54

@Verdi wrote:BBC Reconstruction: Tapas seating plan 3rd May 2007

Documented Evidence - Page 11 Tapas_10


The Holy Grail ..

thinking

Couples usually sit together. Did they all sit in the same seats every night? Or was this just on May 3rd? This seems an odd way to be seated on a regular basis.

And why are there nine people in the plan when only eight were at the table on any one night?

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Post by crusader on 06.05.20 8:17

In Gerry's arguido statement on the 7th September,he mentions that it was a suitcase in the wardrobe.

--- When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine.
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Post by plebgate on 06.05.20 9:36

Sports bags when our family travel are a must.   All sorts thrown in and rarely sporting equipment.

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Post by worriedmum on 06.05.20 11:58

@crusader wrote:In Gerry's arguido statement on the 7th September,he mentions that it was a suitcase in the wardrobe.

--- When asked about the contents of the wardrobe in his room that can be seen in the photographs, he says that on top is a suitcase and below a pile of dirty clothes that he cannot make out. This wardrobe was opened to look for Madeleine.
 Wow! 

So Gerry is taking ownership of it then!  


And it's in the PJ files!
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Post by CaKeLoveR on 06.05.20 12:23

Kate's housekeeping again - a tea stain cannot be tolerated, but dirty clothes piled up in the wardrobe is within the realms of reasonable hygiene.
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Post by sandancer on 06.05.20 13:30

@CaKeLoveR wrote:Kate's housekeeping again - a tea stain cannot be tolerated, but dirty clothes piled up in the wardrobe is within the realms of reasonable hygiene.


What was so important about washing a stain out of one pyjama top - allegedly !

By hand as well ! It was Thursday morning , they weren't going home until Saturday so why not put a load in the washing machine ( the one she couldn't figure out how to work !) ? 

If the weather was as good as the " last photo " supposedly shows wouldn't have taken long to dry ! 

Ah , no of course , she had tennis to play and jogging to do ! 

All part of the " abduction " story .

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Post by Verdi on 07.05.20 0:57

@worriedmum wrote:
Wow! 

So Gerry is taking ownership of it then!  

And it's in the PJ files!

And so again you miss the point.

Why do I even bother ....

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Post by worriedmum on 07.05.20 9:49

@Verdi wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:
Wow! 

So Gerry is taking ownership of it then!  

And it's in the PJ files!

And so again you miss the point.

Why do I even bother ....
'Again'?

Please explain, Verdi
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Post by crusader on 07.05.20 13:16

@Virdi wrote:

Now, getting down to the photograph itself, before anything else look at the quality compared to the other PJ forensic teams photographs featured in the files.  Then, why isn't this particular photograph included in the portfolio of PJ photographs taken by their forensic team on the afternoon of 4th May 2007.

The photograph taken in the early hours of 4th May was taken by Joao Barreiras, police photographer, to record the scene, and not very well in my opinion.Not so much a crime scene at this point as Madeleine could have been found.

When Madeleine wasn't found, the crime scene officers were called in at 3-30pm on the 4th may, to do the more detailed forensic investigation.

In between the police photographer Joao Barreiras and the crime scene officers, the McCann's had been back into the apartment and removed items ie the dirty laundry and the " thing " above.

So the items in the wardrobe were not there at the time the crime scene officers were taking photographs.

Joao Barreiras clearly took the photograph of the dirty laundry and
"thing " above. so why wasn't this photograph included in the PJ files with the other photographs he took?
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Post by worriedmum on 07.05.20 13:26

We might not know the answer to that but we do appear to have Gerry McCann claiming ownership of it.
Also, if this was taken in the first round of photographs, it was undeniably present. Then removed?
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Post by Verdi on 07.05.20 13:27

Thank you crusader for understanding and again checking detail before posting. So many myths have been born through ignorance and laziness over the years.

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Post by Verdi on 07.05.20 13:28

15-Processos Vol 15 Pages 3856-3858

TRANSLATION BY INES
15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3856
15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3857
15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3858
15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3859

Witness Statement

Date: 2007/11/20 Time: 14H00 DIC Portimao

Joao Franciso Pascoa Luis Trigo Barreiras

Occupation: PJ Deputy Specialist

Place of work: Criminal Investigation Department Portimao

He is a specialist in the area of Criminology for the PJ and works in the Criminal Investigation department in Portimao.

His professional responsibilities are to carry out examinations at crime scenes, such as detecting finger prints, biological examinations as well as the identification, signalling and collection of other traces. He is also responsible for making photographic reports and sketches. On the date of the events - 3rd May 2007 he was on duty at the Portimao DIC.

At about 00.10 on the morning of the 4th, he had just finished filing a report about a fire, when he was informed that a child had disappeared in Praia da Luz.

He was brought into service together with an Inspector from the station. It was the inspector's duty to take notes of the services as well as all the information relating to them. The inspector who accompanied him on that date, Vitor Martins, informed him that the case in question was that of the disappearance of a small girl, of British nationality, who was staying at the OC with her parents.

The immediately left for the scene and arrived about 30 - 40 minutes later, at about 00.40/00.50.

When they arrived at the scene, which they immediately identified due to the presence of GNR officers, as well as quite a lot of people who were walking around the street searching for the child, they immediately went to the apartment in question, where they found several people, including some GNR officers, as well as the head of the Lagos GNR station.

He states that the people inside the apartment and close to it, entered and left the building and circulated in the whole apartment, completely freely, in other words, without there being any restriction or care in preserving the scene. .

He said that these people were the friends of the parents of the missing girl and a lady responsible for the resort called Silvia.

He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.

It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection.

At that moment one of the GNR officers told the witness that they had already searched for the girl in the wardrobes and other places in the apartment without having taken any care as to leaving their own traces or for destroying or adulterating any traces that might be of interest to the investigation.

After the arrival of the witness and his colleague Vitor Martins the scene was isolated and the inspection began, namely the collection of statements and inspection of the scene, the respective reports that were subsequently attached to the process documents.

The witness carried out finger print testing on the inside of the bedroom window, where the girl had been sleeping, leaving other examinations for the following day given that on that occasion these tests could not be carried out in the best technical conditions. For this reason, the apartments and the surrounding area were sealed off, watched over by the GNR officers who remained on site.

As far as he knows, after the first examination, other members from the finger print detection service and also officers from the LPC Crime Scene arrived at the scene.

The witness states that, at a given moment, the father of the missing girl led him to understand that he had already contacted the Sky News TV station and informed them of the situation.

As much the father as the girl's mother looked quite worried with the situation and he can even confirm that the mother was very agitated and out of control, crying a lot and shouting in an uncontrolled manner, saying in English "They have taken her".

He remembers that he remained on the scene until about 04.00. There were many people in the street. He does not remember having seen Robert Murat there on that occasion.

When questioned, he says that it was a fresh night with some breeze. It was not a clear night, nor was it very dark. Referring to the light conditions around the apartment, he says they were very dark, and thinks that even on a bright night there would always be little light around the apartment because of the trees and lack of street lights.

Reads, ratifies and signs.

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Post by Verdi on 07.05.20 13:36

The photograph is not, I repeat not, included in the PJ files of photographs taken by Bairreras, or later that day by the PJ forensic team.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_PHOTO_REPORT.htm

As I said initially, the photograph is documented in the PJ files on the page relating to Kate McCann's September 2007 interview, for some inexplicable reason.

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Post by Verdi on 07.05.20 13:50

This is the nearest..

Documented Evidence - Page 11 Scree594

At least it shows the mini multi-coloured cardigan hanging on the door knob.  Well traveled that cardigan - unless there was a mini/maxi version, the mini-me syndrome.

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Post by crusader on 07.05.20 14:20

It does seem strange that the photo is nowhere else in the PJ files apart from Kate's arquido interview.
I also think it strange that the Mcann's would remove dirty washing and not the little cardigan hanging on the wardrobe door.
The photograph above, thank you Verdi, shows the wardrobe door open at what looks like the same angle as the "dirty washing photo".
In the forensics photograph, there is a blue item hanging on the back of a dining chair in the lounge area that wasn't there when Joao Barreiras took his photographs.
Just seems a bit strange, instead of removing items that they were using daily, to put other things in the picture, so to speak.
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Post by Verdi on 08.05.20 2:31

Documented Evidence - Page 11 Proces13

It's the provenance of this image (I'm carefull not to say photograph) that concerns me, along with the reason why it was not included in the documented photographic evidence taken on 4th May 2007.  

Then the image is slipped in the translation of the PJ files, along with copies of the documented text in Portuguese.  In short, it's out of place - not for the first time have I seen images thus included in the file translations on mccannpjfiles, seemingly irrelevant.

Documented Evidence - Page 11 Scree595

Gerry McCann's arguido interview was not recorded verbatim, nor was it translated into English by the Portuguese authorities.  The short entry relating to the content of the wardrobe/cupboard in the room occupied by the parents McCann is vague and there is no indication to suggest why the question was asked.  Whatever, the content shown in the controversial image, could frankly be anything.  Even a suitcase as told by Gerry McCann during his arguido interview.

So why was the brief question asked?  Who or what prompted the PJ to question the content of the wardrobe in September 2007 - in passing?

Yes, of course a hold-all is common place luggage for ease of travel but it was the media that planted the idea it was a sports/tennis bag owned by Gerry McCann.

Personally, I don't believe anyone would carry the corpse of their own child in a hold-all and then place the empty bag back at the crime scene. Nor do I believe anyone could put the corpse of their own child in a hold-all and stuff it in a wardrobe.  The bag used to dispose of the evidence would be likewise disposed of - surely?   If Madeleine met her fate much earlier in the week, as evidence suggests, such a panic reaction would not be necessary.

So back to the image.  Why did it suddenly appear - why did it suddenly appear in the translated presentation of the PJ files documented by mccannpjfiles?  It wasn't particularly relevant.

Unfortunately I don't have access to the original PJ file DVDs, so ....

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Post by ROSA on 08.05.20 12:07

Maddy could easily of been removed from the apartment wrapped in a blanket looking like a sleeping child to a car rather than a sports bag I have a feeling this was done at night or the early hours of the morning much earlier that week they had plenty of time to organise everything.

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And he adds: "In reality, when the McCanns went to Oprah's Show, the blanket was mentioned. At a given moment, when Oprah tells Kate that she heard her mention a blanket several times, Kate argued that a mother who misses a child always wants to know if she is comfortable, if she is warm, and added, referring to Maddie, that sometimes she asked herself if the person who had taken her would cover her up with her little blanket (but the blanket was on the bed after Maddie, supposedly, disappeared!!!).
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Post by sharonl on 08.05.20 22:36

@ROSA wrote:Maddy could easily of been removed from the apartment wrapped in a blanket looking like a sleeping child to a car rather than a sports bag I have a feeling this was done at night or the early hours of the morning much earlier that week they had plenty of time to organise everything.

If only we knew what the McCanns and their friends were up to on the Sunday and Monday of that week. No wonder they keep promoting that "Madeleine disappeared on May 3rd" line.

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Post by Verdi on 23.05.20 22:37

I've always been intrigued to know the true reason why the McCanns group friends took that trip down to the beach on the afternoon of Thursday 3rd May 2007 - without the McCann family!

Bear with me, this might take some time but I'll start with David Payne's version of events taken from his rogatory interview in April 2008..

Reply :   "Mm yeah, err on that particular day err me and Fiona had you know gone down to the beach, we err took the dinghies out err as usual we went, you know we had the kids, err we had lunch err in the apartment. Err that afternoon I wanted to go down err to the Ocean, err to the beach and err you know windsurf err Matt and Russell had gone down there, they were, had taken the catamaran out. So I went down there err while Fiona and Dianne were looking after the girls in our apartment. Err I was down err windsurfing, I must have been windsurfing for a couple of hours, err saw Matt and Russ out on err the catamaran and then after we finished there we you know we met on the beach, played with the girls on the beach and then we went to the err the restaurant which is on the err overlooking the beach and you know we had err the evening meal there.

Err after we had the meal we got some ice cream and then err we decided that we were gonna go up and play tennis so I left err with err Russell, we left the, err the girls at the restaurant and we went up to the, err back up to the Ocean Club. Err I, as I say I'm not sure you know what happened to Matt and Russell at that particular moment but I remember then you know I went over to see err Gerry at the err you know tennis courts, just to see you know what was happening, and err decided that we'd, you know I'd come, come back to play tennis and err Gerry had asked me just to pop in and check everything was alright err with Kate or you know again I can't remember the exact reason whether he was just making sure it was alright that he could stay there and you know more time but you know he'd asked me to pop in.

..................

He says they had their evening meal there - ?  Maybe he means the children's meal rather than the adults but it seems a peculiar choice of words.

Feel free to add anything relative to that Thursday trip to the beach that you can think of.

My initial intention was to uncover their respective testimony of the weather conditions that afternoon but there is a lot more being concealed here than meets the eye.

The McCanns themselves have very little to say about their afternoon, apart from the 'routine' breakfast, lunch, tennis, creche and dinner at the Tapas.  And of course their version of evening events.

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Post by Verdi on 24.05.20 1:40

Sorry this is so fragmented but I'm trying to make sense of it all.

Fiona Payne's version of the truth according to her rogatory interview in April 2008..

1485
'So what time did you put them to bed''

Reply
'Erm, I'd say it would be, you know, about one, half one again, erm'.

1485
'And what did you do at the time, once they had gone to bed''

Reply
'When they were asleep, I think that day, I know Dave had been talking about trying to go wind surfing because the weather was better. I'm just trying to recall. I think mum had tennis possibly, I think I just stayed at the apartment, Dave possibly, sort of halfway through the afternoon, while the kids were still asleep, went off to do some wind surfing and I think Matt and Russell had already gone down to do, to take a boat out a bit earlier, so the men were sort of out of the picture, and I don't know what Gerry was doing. Erm, as I say, mum, I can't remember whether mum was with me or not, she possibly had played a bit of tennis, I think she might have played a bit of tennis with Jane, I don't know, I can't comment on them, but I was around, I was around the apartment'.

1485
'Uh hu. So carry on then''

Reply
'And then they would have woken up, the kids would have woken up about sort of three, half three, erm, and I went down to the beach at that point, certainly with mum, Dave, I can't, I really can't remember now whether he came down then to go wind surfing or whether he'd left a bit earlier to do the wind surfing, I have a feeling it was just the girls on their own that walked down to the beach, because Jane and, erm, Rachael also brought their children and we all sort of headed down to the beach'.

1485
'So in that little group was''

Reply
'So in that group, yeah, me, mum, I think, as I say, I can't say for Dave, I think he was already, had gone by then, yeah, Jane with, erm, Ella and Evie, well it would have just, it was just Evie actually because Ella was, would have been in kids club, and, erm, yeah, and Rachael with Grace'.

1485
'Was Kate with you''

Reply
'No, no, Kate didn't come. They, they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon, for the twins as well as Madeleine, and they were the only ones really doing that, as I say, Ella sometimes went in in the afternoon, but the younger ones, you know, none of us put them in in the afternoon. So, again, that's generally why we didn't see them because they had things booked to do in the afternoon without the kids and we didn't. So, you know, we had asked them but, you know, they had tennis lessons or something. So, yeah, we all headed, we headed off and then, once we were on the beach, we were, we were a little while just sort of the women and the kids really playing on the beach, you know, sandcastles and stuff. Erm, and then, at some point, Matt and Russell came back in and there was a bit of a laugh because Russ was saying that he saved Matt's life or something, I don't know, something had happened on the boat and, erm, you know, there was some jokes about Matt trying to capsize and drowned and all sorts. And then, a bit later, after that, Dave had came in from the wind surfing. Time wise I'.

1485
'Try and remember'.

Reply
'I find hard, but, I mean, assuming we got to the beach about four o'clock, I'd say, you know, I'd say Matt must have got in, I'm sure it was Matt and Russ, about half four, erm, and then, about twenty minutes after that, maybe Dave. Erm, so by five o'clock we were all kind of ready to have a drink and feed the kids. Erm, so that, that group as a whole went up to the restaurant, erm, on the beach and ordered our, well the food for the kids, we didn't eat, and we all had a beer. Erm, so, yeah, I'd say about five'.

1485
'Right. So there is a bar on the beach, is that right''

Reply
'Yeah, it's the, I can't remember the name, is it the Paradiso Restaurant, erm'.

1485
'Something like that, yeah'.

Reply
'Something like that. Yeah, there's only, it's the one that's on the beach, I think it's pretty much the only one that's got the sort of steps down to the sand and it's got the play area outside, erm, a slide and swings and things'.

1485
'And when you went there, is it somewhere that you can sit inside or do you sit outside''

Reply
'Well it did have an inside area but we always sat sort of on the outside area, erm, just so the kids were free to come up and down and play on the beach'.

1485
'So when you went to, well did the kids stay on the beach or did the kids join you at the bar, at the cafe''

Reply
'They joined us, sat down and we would have ordered food, but while we were waiting for food, I mean, they were all over the place, you know, up and down, playing, erm, we didn't make them sit down until the food arrived, so, yeah, they would have been playing round'.

1485
'Uh hu. And sort of what time do think the food came''

Reply
'Erm, I'd say somewhere between five and half five. I mean, there was always a little wait, but not too long. I can't be any more specific. Erm, tut, I'm trying to think, I know what, I'm trying to think what time we left to sort of gauge it, I'd say about half five'.

1485
'You left the''

Reply
'No, that the food arrived'.

1485
'The food arrived about five thirty''

Reply
'Yeah, I think so'.

1485
'Okay'.

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Post by Verdi on 24.05.20 1:51

Policia Judiciaria

Fax

Date: 25 October 2007

To: The Institute of Meteorology
Lisbon

From: PJ Inspector Joao Carlos

Subject: Request for Information

Being necessary to the investigation NUIPC 201.070 GALGS I ask you to inform this police force about the requests noted below with regard to the following location: Praia da Luz, Lagos, Portugal on 3rd and 4th May 2007.

1. Time of sunset.
2. Direction and intensity of wind.
3. Cloudiness.
4. Rainfall
5. Daytime and nocturnal temperature.
6. Environmental humidity.
7. State of the sea.

With compliments
Chief Inspector
Tavares de Almeida
....................

Processos Vol XIII Page 3982
13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3982

Processo Vol 13 page 3982;

FAX dated 2007/11/07
from Commercial Division, Institute of Meteorology
to Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida, PJ DIC Portimao
Ref: COME 324/07-062

Subject: Quotation for request of meteorological information

Pursuant to your request, whose reference is a Fax dated 07/10/25, we advise that the cost is 395,14 [euro] including VAT of 21%. This amount refers to the use of data/information for the purposes indicated.

The meteorological information refers to the days 3 and 4 May/07 - meteorological conditions.
- Analysis of synoptic situation.

- Results of numeric models.

- Result of observations.

- Certified copy of "State of the Weather and Sea in the Area of Praia da Luz" containing a description of wind, gusts, cloudiness, rainfall, temperature, humidity and the state of the sea.


Note: hour of sunset.

- Contact details of Astronomical Observatory of Lisbon (Help).

In order to proceed with your request, please confirm your acceptance of this quotation in writing, mentioning the above reference, as well as the tax number and exact address to be used for billing. Not giving this information will invalidate acceptance of the quotation and subsequent delivery of the meteorological information requested.

If we do not receive confirmation of acceptance of the quotation from yourselves within 30 days we reserve the right to cancel your request.

Your faithfully

Commercial Division Coordinator

Manuela Travassos M. Caldeira

Ministry of Science, Technology and Higher Learning

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/WEATHER_CONDITIONS.htm
...................

I don't recall ever seeing anything beyond this in the PJ files or anywhere else.  Had the PJ proceeded it's a great shame the report was not documented in the file translations.

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Post by worriedmum on 24.05.20 10:24

Picking up from Verdi on Fiona's interview,
'When they were asleep, I think that day, I know Dave had been talking about trying to go wind surfing because the weather was better. I'm just trying to recall. I think mum had tennis possibly, I think I just stayed at the apartment, Dave possibly, sort of halfway through the afternoon, while the kids were still asleep, went off to do some wind surfing and I think Matt and Russell had already gone down to do, to take a boat out a bit earlier, so the men were sort of out of the picture, and I don't know what Gerry was doing. Erm, as I say, mum, I can't remember whether mum was with me or not, she possibly had played a bit of tennis, I think she might have played a bit of tennis with Jane, I don't know, I can't comment on them, but I was around, I was around the apartment'.

synonyms.com
'out of the picture'
'Not included in the matter being planned or under consideration; not a factor or participant in the present situation.'
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Post by Verdi on 24.05.20 14:50

Quite - good point!

I'm trying to find some common ground but alas, the rogatory interviews are .... bonkers!

For a start, Fiona Payne doesn't appear to know when, how or even if she or her family ever went to the beach, with the exception perhaps of Thursday 3rd May!

Seems to me the McCann family were very much out of the picture during the entire week so what were they doing, where were they and more importantly - why were they!

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Post by crusader on 24.05.20 17:44

I think something happened between the adults on the Wednesday night, the night Kate slept in the kids room.

It looks like the tapas lot were together on the beach on Thursday to keep out of the way of the McCann's.

Did Russell "pelt" up to get Ella at 4-30 (before high tea) and signed out by Cat,  to avoid seeing Kate and Gerry I wonder.
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