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Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by JRP on 02.12.17 12:29

To try and answer the question, it looks to me as if the photographer has the camera at Madeleine's face level, if she's stood up and she measures 3 foot 3 inches then that's the answer, the photographer crouches to a level of 3 foot 3 inches.

The difficulty would be obviously the photographers height and the available space. I'm 6 foot 4 inches, I would have to almost lie down to shoot an image at 3 foot 3 inches... an almost daily problem, it keeps me fit though!

Unless of course you have one of those swivel rear screens, which sadly I don't.

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by BlueBag on 02.12.17 13:27

@JRP wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:This is what I think we could be seeing.

This is a brilliant piece of forensic observation - thank you very much, @BlueBag.  

Assuming the shadow theory is correct, it could enable us to calculate the approximate time of day that this photograph was taken - AND which direction this wall is facing.

I guess that the longer shadow on the left is of an object immediately above it, and possibly do we see just a tiny bit of that (the slightly blacker bob at the very top of the picture, on the left of the thing/thermometer)?

Ideally we would need to know how far out from the wall is the object causing the shadow.

Then we need to estimate the distance between the black blob and the bottom of the shadow.

I venture to suggest that we can now deduce two things from this:

1 When the photo was taken, the sun was very high, suggesting that it was taken somewhere in the late morning or early afternooon, and

2 That being so, the wall must be south-facing.

However, assuming the above analysis is more or less correct, that leaves us with a different problem.

The thing/thermometer has a light source - the sun- causing a shadow.

But there is no sign of any sun/shadow on Madeleine's face

When light from a single source hits a solid object it casts a shadow on the opposite side. 

How in this demo does a single light source from top right cast a shadow on the same side as the light source ( the little notch thought by RDH source to be a minus sign)?
How does this small shadow on the right side have a gap of light before it begins?

Shadows take the form of the object which cast them, so why does the shadow on the left not look like the object on the wall?
From you light placement would the whole left side length of the object not cast a shadow downwards?

Why is the object above casting a vertical downwards shadow, when the light source is at a shallower angle?
There is no matching shading on Madeleine's face which is lit by flat direct light.

So what you're saying is a single source of light can cast a shadow on both sides of the same object, and also make a vertical shadow from an object above?

Have I read this correctly?
Think 3D.

Light source is up, to the right and this side (camera side) of the object.
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by NickE on 02.12.17 14:23

Do we know for sure that this picture really is a photo and not a still from a video clip?

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.12.17 14:44

@BlueBag wrote:
@JRP wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:This is what I think we could be seeing.


So what you're saying is a single source of light can cast a shadow on both sides of the same object, and also make a vertical shadow from an object above?

Have I read this correctly?
Think 3D.

Light source is up, to the right and this side (camera side) of the object.

Right, @ BlueBag   I can follow this and I agree.

I would modify it slightly, however, to read  "Light source is up, slightly to the right and this side (camera side) of the object" 

I would suggest, perhaps, that the object mighjt be aound, say, 30 degrees to the right.

The object therefore would appear to be the sun, very high in the sky, at 30 degrees to the wall.   

Making three assumptions:

1  The wall faces due south-west
2  The object is the sun, and
3  The sun is at 30 degrees to the wall,

THEN the photo would have been taken at precisely TWO hours after the sun was at its zenith.

We know from previous research that the sun was at its zenith that week in Portugal at around 1.35pm (Central European time and BST).

Therefore, assuming EACH of the above three assumptions is true, the photo may have been taken at about 3.35pm that afternoon (Sunday 29th April).

I also think that the poster upthread who suggested that the photo was taken close to her face with flash equipment gave a most plausible explanation for why we see no shadows on her face.

If the poster was right, then there were TWO light sources operating on that photograph.

If the wall faced due south, however, the photo would have been taken three hours earlier i.e. around 12.35pm.

So we would need to know which way the wall faced.

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by Verdi on 02.12.17 15:07

@Doug D wrote:But there is no sign of any sun/shadow on Madeleine's face
Aha!  That is a crucial point worthy of further scrutiny..



The image is also devoid of all shadow and facial definition - it is bland, without character or expression.  Compare with another more typical Madeleine image..



Puffy around the eyes, plump cheeks and prominent chin definition, typical podgy child's face.  Besides, unless Madeleine was elevated in some way i.e standing or sitting on something, if it is indeed a thermometer behind her head, who would position a thermometer about 24/36 inches from the ground?

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by Verdi on 02.12.17 15:21

@Doug D wrote:As for Verdi's:

'I have never ever seen an external thermometer included in an architect's design or a builder's specification for fixtures and fittings',

what's that got to do with the price of eggs?

The fact that it is not a common feature is surely the whole point in trying to identify the location.
Richard D Hall's video appeal said..

"I'm appealing today if anyone has knowledge of where these types of thermometer may have been installed.  Remember this in 2007 and the likely location is in the algarve, possibly in or near praia da luz.  If you can recall seeing this kind of thermometer or that type on that coloured textured background or have photographs, please get in touch."


I interpreted this as suggesting that such a fixture (thermometer) may have been a common feature on the Algarve.  Nothing to do with the price of eggs.

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by MayMuse on 02.12.17 15:22

Is it possible it is a Hanging basket bracket without the basket of flowers?

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by aquila on 02.12.17 15:23

@Verdi wrote:
@Doug D wrote:But there is no sign of any sun/shadow on Madeleine's face
Aha!  That is a crucial point worthy of further scrutiny..



The image is also devoid of all shadow and facial definition - it is bland, without character or expression.  Compare with another more typical Madeleine image..



Puffy around the eyes, plump cheeks and prominent chin definition, typical podgy child's face.  Besides, unless Madeleine was elevated in some way i.e standing or sitting on soething, if it is indeed a thermometer behind her head, who would position a thermometer about 24 inches from the ground?
I lived in Crete and my Dutch nextdoor neighbours had an outside thermometer on their covered terrrace alongside a load of other quite beautiful wall adornments - all of which were for aesthetic purpose. No-one needed to know the exact bloomin temperature! - and temperature is always taken in the shade.

I can see why this question of the thermometer is being asked - to possibly identify the location of the photograph - but it could very well be a cleat of some sort or simply something on which to hang a pot plant.
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by aquila on 02.12.17 15:28

@MayMuse wrote:Is it possible it is a Hanging basket bracket without the basket of flowers?
I had the same thought.
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by Verdi on 02.12.17 15:32

@aquila wrote:I can see why this question of the thermometer is being asked - to possibly identify the location of the photograph - but it could very well be a cleat of some sort or simply something on which to hang a pot plant.
It could be anything as far as I'm concerned, hence I said at the beginning of the thread - it's woofing up the wrong tree.

No way from that rough image of Madeleine can anyone say with any certainty, what the fixture on the wall behind Madeleine's head is.  As for the colour and texture of the wall, just look at all the different versions of the image circulating the net -just like the tennis ball image!

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by NickE on 02.12.17 17:03

@BlueBag wrote:
@JRP wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:This is what I think we could be seeing.

This is a brilliant piece of forensic observation - thank you very much, @BlueBag.  

Assuming the shadow theory is correct, it could enable us to calculate the approximate time of day that this photograph was taken - AND which direction this wall is facing.

I guess that the longer shadow on the left is of an object immediately above it, and possibly do we see just a tiny bit of that (the slightly blacker bob at the very top of the picture, on the left of the thing/thermometer)?

Ideally we would need to know how far out from the wall is the object causing the shadow.

Then we need to estimate the distance between the black blob and the bottom of the shadow.

I venture to suggest that we can now deduce two things from this:

1 When the photo was taken, the sun was very high, suggesting that it was taken somewhere in the late morning or early afternooon, and

2 That being so, the wall must be south-facing.

However, assuming the above analysis is more or less correct, that leaves us with a different problem.

The thing/thermometer has a light source - the sun- causing a shadow.

But there is no sign of any sun/shadow on Madeleine's face

When light from a single source hits a solid object it casts a shadow on the opposite side. 

How in this demo does a single light source from top right cast a shadow on the same side as the light source ( the little notch thought by RDH source to be a minus sign)?
How does this small shadow on the right side have a gap of light before it begins?

Shadows take the form of the object which cast them, so why does the shadow on the left not look like the object on the wall?
From you light placement would the whole left side length of the object not cast a shadow downwards?

Why is the object above casting a vertical downwards shadow, when the light source is at a shallower angle?
There is no matching shading on Madeleine's face which is lit by flat direct light.

So what you're saying is a single source of light can cast a shadow on both sides of the same object, and also make a vertical shadow from an object above?

Have I read this correctly?
Think 3D.

Light source is up, to the right and this side (camera side) of the object.
I ran the photo through a 

Luminance Gradient tool if it's helpfull in some way.



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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by polyenne on 02.12.17 18:18

I suggest we’d be wrong to dismiss all this chatter as IMO these things DO matter. After all this time, it will be all the little things that will come together to bind bigger pieces together.

Never underestimate the effect of what might appear mere fripperies. The identity of this balcony, the time the photo was taken etc etc may well be crucial.
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by JRP on 02.12.17 18:23

Can I upload a photo directly from a laptop onto this thread without it having a URL, if so where is the button?

If that's not possible can I e-mail it to an admin instead?

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by NickE on 02.12.17 18:28

@JRP wrote:Can I upload a photo directly from a laptop onto this thread without it having a URL, if so where is the button?

If that's not possible can I e-mail it to an admin instead?
Press the button with a "floppy and green image"
"Upload"
Copy the link to the photo.
Press the button to right of the "floppy button"
Paste the link.

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by worriedmum on 02.12.17 18:49

The contrast of the light and darkness between the exterior wall and the (open door?) interior is very marked.I can't see any suggestion of objects inside. On the greyscale pictures of David Payne's apartment,interiors are fuzzy but perceptible. It makes me thinks of the way interiors are kept dark in hot climates, when people who live there keep the curtains/shutters closed on sunny days. One of my children lives in a hot climate and the interior of their house seems gloomy to me. As a sun-starved Brit I alaways want to open the curtains and shutters. But the people who live there do it differently.
Could this be a clue?
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by JRP on 02.12.17 19:17

@NickE wrote:
@JRP wrote:Can I upload a photo directly from a laptop onto this thread without it having a URL, if so where is the button?

If that's not possible can I e-mail it to an admin instead?
Press the button with a "floppy and green image"
"Upload"
Copy the link to the photo.
Press the button to right of the "floppy button"
Paste the link.

There isn't a link to the photo, it's just on my laptop.

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 02.12.17 19:22

You should still be able to upload via the screenshot I posted upthread



If it's on your laptop then it must be saved - just press the button in the screenshot and choose the photo to upload.
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by JRP on 02.12.17 19:22



I put this through Photoshop, it's a feature called curves. It alters the colour saturation and luminance.

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 02.12.17 19:24




Don't know if this helps or not!
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by JRP on 02.12.17 19:26

Thanks Get'em  bingo

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by MayMuse on 02.12.17 19:28

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:R


Don't know if this helps or not!
Now that looks like part of a clete wince for a mechanical overhead veranda/awning that comes over a window or patio doors to shield the sun?

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by NickE on 02.12.17 19:50

@JRP wrote:

I put this through Photoshop, it's a feature called curves. It alters the colour saturation and luminance.
Has she been beaten and somebody put on make up to hide the wounds?

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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by worriedmum on 02.12.17 19:53

@JRP wrote:

I put this through Photoshop, it's a feature called curves. It alters the colour saturation and luminance.
Why is there an almost straight line across Madeleine's neck-is she wearing make-up on the top third of her neck? And why are there dark marks on her cheeks?
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Re: Richard D. Hall: Appeal for new information re Madeleine's Make-Up Photo and the thermometer on the wall

Post by MayMuse on 02.12.17 20:26

It has picked up the variations of Madeleine's skin tone...the line on her neck , the lighter area is on the original as are the bluish areas on her cheek and neck etc .  I believe the discolouration or mottling is bruising ?

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