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Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by tigger on 31.08.13 13:39

@Monty Heck wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:book
Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting! I remember feeling fleetingly disappointed that we hadn’t known they were all heading for the beach, as it might have been nice to have joined them, especially for the kids. I wondered whether Madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ or Jane had collected Ella. I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by. It’s hard work being a mum sometimes, fretting about the possible effects of the smallest of incidents on your children. I’m sure a lot of these worries are unfounded but it doesn’t stop us having them, and we’ll probably go on having them for the rest of our lives.
far too much detail, yet again.  Wondering about Madeleine - hard work being a Mum (You really couldn't make that up !)
As others have said, interesting that the only corroboration for this incident comes from within the T9.  As ever it's unclear where KMcC was and where the group were when the words of encouragement were shouted but distance apart is implied.  Had this taken place when the group were at the Paraiso (as the timing seems to suggest) would there not be corroboration from the CCTV?  The group shouting encouragement across a fair distance would have caused quite a disturbance which other diners/restaurant staff would not have failed to notice, yet there is nothing in the files to support that this incident happened.  KMcC therefore has no disinterested corroboration for her statement that she was at the beach at the time she claimed to have been.
Very much a 'them and us' feeling in that excerpt. Which makes me think the T 7 perhaps used that occasion to decide amongst themselves if and what the help might be that they were about to give the McCanns. winkwink

So both the bit in the book where she asks Maddie if she'd felt left out and the above seem to describe some sense of resentment. Perhaps the T7 had not told the McCanns of this meeting?

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Monty Heck on 31.08.13 13:50

@tigger wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:book
Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting! I remember feeling fleetingly disappointed that we hadn’t known they were all heading for the beach, as it might have been nice to have joined them, especially for the kids. I wondered whether Madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ or Jane had collected Ella. I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by. It’s hard work being a mum sometimes, fretting about the possible effects of the smallest of incidents on your children. I’m sure a lot of these worries are unfounded but it doesn’t stop us having them, and we’ll probably go on having them for the rest of our lives.
far too much detail, yet again.  Wondering about Madeleine - hard work being a Mum (You really couldn't make that up !)
As others have said, interesting that the only corroboration for this incident comes from within the T9.  As ever it's unclear where KMcC was and where the group were when the words of encouragement were shouted but distance apart is implied.  Had this taken place when the group were at the Paraiso (as the timing seems to suggest) would there not be corroboration from the CCTV?  The group shouting encouragement across a fair distance would have caused quite a disturbance which other diners/restaurant staff would not have failed to notice, yet there is nothing in the files to support that this incident happened.  KMcC therefore has no disinterested corroboration for her statement that she was at the beach at the time she claimed to have been.
Very much a 'them and us' feeling in that excerpt. Which makes me think the T 7 perhaps used that occasion to decide amongst themselves if and what the help might be that they were about to give the McCanns. winkwink

So both the bit in the book where she asks Maddie if she'd felt left out and the above seem to describe some sense of resentment. Perhaps the T7 had not told the McCanns of this meeting?
There may welll have been resentment/split within the group.  On the other hand, describing these scenes may also give credence to nothing having happened at that point, otherwise K would not have been worried about how M felt at being left out, and so forth.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by tigger on 31.08.13 14:49

We only have Kate's word for this exchange between her and Maddie. Therefore not reliable evidence.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Sceneset on 31.08.13 15:10

Thank you Tigger, yes, it works.

I only feel such optimism as I cannot see how such information in the public domain could do anything but severely embarrass SY should no further questioning of the parents/ friends take place.

Let's hope that they value their reputation as the comparison of statements is pretty basic policing i'd have thought.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by BerylJ on 31.08.13 15:31

@Sceneset wrote:Thank you Tigger, yes, it works.

I only feel such optimism as I cannot see how such information in the public domain could do anything but severely embarrass SY should no further questioning of the parents/ friends take place.

Let's hope that they value their reputation as the comparison of statements is pretty basic policing i'd have thought.
Hello Sceneset, pleased to meet you. I agree re the public domain, sadly it is only the section who are interested enough to trawl the Internet for such truths.
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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by sallypelt on 31.08.13 16:31

This is taken from Russell O'Brien's statement, from 4 May 2007:

"He recalls that Matthew Oldfield left the restaurant at shortly after 9pm to check the children. He is no longer sure who went out first, but five minutes later, Gerry McCann and his own partner, Jane, went out, almost at the same time, to check the children. Jane could have come back first because she found Gerry chatting with a person who is also a guest in the same place"

So, if Gerry and Jane went out  the same time, she couldn't have seen the "abductor" at that time. Moreover, if we are to believe what RO is saying, JT saw GM and JW when she was RETURNING to the Tapas bar, therefore COULD NOT have seen the "abductor walking across the top of the road" because she would have been looking THE OTHER WAY!

Russell O'Brien's statement from 11 May 2007:


Around 5 or 10 minutes after Gerry McCann had left, the deponent's companion, Jane Tanner, also left, to check personally on how her two children were doing. He does remember is Jane or Gerry arrived first but remembers that Jane commented on having passed Gerry on the road, and that he was talking to another guest in the same locale, named Jez.

A completely different story from what RO said a week earlier.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Sceneset on 01.09.13 22:12

Likewise, BerylY :) 

Your'e right; I do forget at times how wonderful sites like this are for information and forget how little is in the public arena through awful reporting/ possible gag orders/ reluctance of journalists to actually find information etc which compounds my frustrations daily!

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by tigger on 02.09.13 5:56

Copied from the topic 'your time starts now'



Your time starts now ........
suzyjohnson on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm

I was just looking at ROB's interview statements, did he have time to fit in everything he said he did between 9.30 and 10pm on May 3rd?

At 9.30 pm he says he walked round to the front door of his apartment with MO. Approx. one and a half mins. Then he goes to the loo. Then at -

9.32pm He finds that his daughter has been sick. He runs her a bath, changes her clothes, answers the door to MO, puts his daughter in the bath, changes all the bedding, finds her some clean clothes, gets her dry and redressed, puts all the washing into the washing machine, and is sitting in the lounge reading his daughter a book by the time JT arrives back by 9.40pm. It has to have been 9.40pm at the latest because he says they were together for 5 mins and then he was back at the Tapas by -

9.45pm (the waiter's statement is in agreement with this) where he reordered his main meal, which took 10 mins to arrive (the waiter found this meal half finished after the group had left the table.
Unquote




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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by PeterMac on 02.09.13 8:32

You are falling into the Tiger-trap of trying to make it make sense !!

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by tigger on 02.09.13 8:55

@PeterMac wrote:You are falling into the Tiger-trap of trying to make it make sense !!
Grrrr! It's just 8 minutes to do all that and leave a sick child alone - completely cured? Initial lie is hard to adjust and whichever way you try, ROB still ends up as an irresponsible father/doctor - no wonder he wanted to change his statement and I don't believe the reason given. Which was that he'd seen somebody as well. I think there was quite a panic going on around November which is why the Rothley meeting was moved forward, originally intended for December.
JT and ROB had to be brought back into line.
The 'find' of the clothes and shower curtain was made public around then.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Guest on 02.09.13 9:13

I'd love to see super-dad Russell try to recreate what he claims to have done in the time stated.

I don't believe that he and Jane left their children alone on that night or previous ones and they only claimed to have done so to back the McCanns' official story.

It really is unbelievable - not just because of the practical impossibility of the time line - that a normally responsible dad - a doctor to boot - would leave a child who'd just been sick.

I surmise that the whole mob thought that they'd be believed because of their social standing.

Whatever can the McCanns have done that was so bad that, in order to protect them, their friends were happy to portray themselves as selfish, useless parents?
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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by PeterMac on 02.09.13 9:30

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I'd love to see super-dad Russell try to recreate what he claims to have done in the time stated.
Which is why they all refused to return for a reconstruction ?

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by joyce1938 on 02.09.13 9:38

You are so right peter mac ,the timelines are mostly a red herring to keep everyone busy in trying to make it fit ,its most likely done so we miss the important bits here and there that could be a little bit true. joyce1938
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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by russiandoll on 02.09.13 10:12

Maybe the McCanns were calling in a favour from JT and ROB.
        Maybe what befell Maddie happened in the presence of one or both of them ; maybe one or both, or even a child was /were involved.
        A push, a shove, a fall and a tragedy. maybe because a child had something to do with an injury to Maddie?

        JT and ROB are central to this story. Their child imo was used as a substitute for Maddie on 3rd May.

        JT felt obliged to assist with the sighting, and obliged to help her partner.


       Kate said Jane could not have recognised Maddies PJs, therefore she def saw the abductor carrying Maddie.
       It did not happen evening 3rd, due to tiredness, that McCann kids went to the play area in pjs. But maybe it did on a previous evening, in which case JT might have recalled the Disney sleepwear.
  JT imo did see a child in those pjs being carried by a man, but he was not an abductor.

   There is repeated allusion to collective mistakes and decisions and a pact, an all for one and one for all scenario.

   Pressure indeed. Yet I still believe that the crux of the matter is simple, and all that followed is a fabricated maze to conceal it.
 
  I do not believe that any of the adults remained in the apartments of an evening, that was a ruse to ease the neglect complaints.
  I do not believe that any children were sedated until 3rd, and then it was only the twins who were sound asleep but not in 5a until later on when the stage was to be set, moved there probably by those adults who were away from the table not long before 10pm.

 I believe there was a fall, Kates " can of beans falling off a shelf" tells me that. Note from some sort of ledge. The top of a wall or a table or chair imo.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by tigger on 02.09.13 10:54

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I'd love to see super-dad Russell try to recreate what he claims to have done in the time stated.

I don't believe that he and Jane left their children alone on that night or previous ones and they only claimed to have done so to back the McCanns' official story.

It really is unbelievable - not just because of the practical impossibility of the time line - that a normally responsible dad - a doctor to boot - would leave a child who'd just been sick.

I surmise that the whole mob thought that they'd be believed because of their social standing.

Whatever can the McCanns have done that was so bad that, in order to protect them, their friends were happy to portray themselves as selfish, useless parents?
Imo not only did they think they'd be believed, what if they already knew a 'higher power'was going to give protection?  Following on from Dr. Roberts' 'Santa's little helpers' it may be that they were asked to say x, y and z, and not to worry because big uncle whoever was going to sort it. That seems a lot more likely to me.
You'd still need a bit of discussion (Paraiso Bar?) amongst yourselves and present the local plods with a fait accomply, i.e. the timeline for the evening and on the whole there didn't seem to be much of a  risk. One might also feel obliged if the Deus ex Machina was standing by in the wings. Be it Blair, Brown or whoever, imo the protection was primed.

The press and internet storm was a million times more intense than they could ever have envisaged. The PJ was far too intelligent and the abduction might have been done better by Delboy himself.  So much harder to keep a lid on it.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Praiaaa on 02.09.13 14:21

@russiandoll wrote: Yet I still believe that the crux of the matter is simple, and all that followed is a fabricated maze to conceal it.
 
 .
Me too. I remember on the Mirror Forum and 3As there were all sorts of outlandish conspiracy theories, eg cloning, Comare, GM being in on the know re Diana etc.... but I have always believed it was simple, and an accident, a panic coverup ( GM only one generation from Glasgow tenements, boy made good etc) to save their careers, and the T7 then found themselves in an inextricable web of lies. Banal, mundane, not a global conspiracy. And the papers wanted to sell papers - RB & co far cleverer than GM & Co - just used them and cleverly worked GM vanity. Clarrie a careerist, and the Gvt, lazy, not really interested anyway, just not properly reading the brief and happy to go with the NOTW and Voxpop.

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 02.09.13 16:04

@tigger wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:You are falling into the Tiger-trap of trying to make it make sense !!
Grrrr! It's just 8 minutes to do all that and leave a sick child alone - completely cured? Initial lie is hard to adjust and whichever way you try, ROB still ends up as an irresponsible father/doctor - no wonder he wanted to change his statement and I don't believe the reason given. Which was that he'd seen somebody as well. I think there was quite a panic going on around November which is why the Rothley meeting was moved forward, originally intended for December.
JT and ROB had to be brought back into line.
The 'find' of the clothes and shower curtain was made public around then.
What a Superdad he's and super efficient, 9 tasks done in 8 minutes.
I dont mind hiring him as helper except I wont want him reading to my sick child.

You would think a sick child wants to be cuddled and comforted and not be expected to engage mind in concentrating on listening to a story.

Also when you think about it, it is more normal to wipe down the child and give her fresh set of clothes rather than leave her alone to go run a bath.


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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by aiyoyo on 02.09.13 17:11

[quote]
@tigger wrote:Copied from the topic 'your time starts now'



Your time starts now ........
 suzyjohnson on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm

I was just looking at ROB's interview statements, did he have time to fit in everything he said he did between 9.30 and 10pm on May 3rd?

At 9.30 pm he says he walked round to the front door of his apartment with MO. Approx. one and a half mins. Then he goes to the loo. Then at -

9.32pm He finds that his daughter has been sick. He runs her a bath, changes her clothes, answers the door to MO, puts his daughter in the bath, changes all the bedding, finds her some clean clothes, gets her dry and redressed, puts all the washing into the washing machine, and is sitting in the lounge reading his daughter a book by the time JT arrives back by 9.40pm. It has to have been 9.40pm at the latest because he says they were together for 5 mins and then he was back at the Tapas by -

9.45pm (the waiter's statement is in agreement with this) where he reordered his main meal, which took 10 mins to arrive (the waiter found this meal half finished after the group had left the table.
Unquote
One wonder why Matthew knocked on Brian's door.   Was it to check all is well and that he was coping OK with a sick child ?

On one hand he seems indifference to the unattended home-alone Mccanns' twins when he couldn't be arsed to enter inside to check, yet he was concerned about Brian to go knock on his door.  How did he know Brian  had discovered his daughter to be sick and was tending to her ?  If not, what was his purpose for going to Brian?   A few oddities here  - why did Brian not stay behind instead of spoiling Jane's dinner by asking her  (via Matthew) to come back  to attend to their sick daughter?  

I suspect the sedated twins and all the other children (except for the Payne's whose apt is one level up and they'd a listening monitor)  were left in Brian's apt, hence all the checking by respective parents were done in Brian's apt. That would explain why Matthew went to Brian's apt - he went there to check on his child as well as the Mccanns' twin who incidentally were there as well.  His listen outside the wall of 5A was a  fabrication.   That would explain why the children's room in 5A looked as if no one slept there - neat Madeleine's bed and twins' cot bed without beddings.  

So it begs the question, was Gerry's earlier check (on the twins) also to Brian's apt?  
Or was the purpose of his trip back to jemmy the shutter but was hindered by JW.  
Wasn't it said reported that JW was unsure which direction Gerry turned out from......did he come from direction of Brian's apt and not his own apt as presumed by JW ?

The  other pertinent question is : why was Matthew only ( and not the rest of them)  be expected to check on the Mccanns children ?
Did he volunteer or was he asked to go?  Either way you would expect him to be given the key or ask for the key if he's not been told the patio door was left unlocked.  Else he did they expect to enter the apt?  If the intention was just to listen outside the window, what's the point of going?

Was the purpose of Jane return to the apt to mind all the children in her apt while Kate raised the alarm, so that if necessary both Matthew and Brian can carry the twins (one each)  back to 5A while Jane remains in the apt to watch over  her child and Matthew's child.  

It could well be the Payne couldn't be included in this part of the Charade because they're one floor up and because there's the complication of Diane.
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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by windchime on 02.09.13 17:51

@tigger wrote:Copied from the topic 'your time starts now'



Your time starts now ........
 suzyjohnson on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:57 pm

I was just looking at ROB's interview statements, did he have time to fit in everything he said he did between 9.30 and 10pm on May 3rd?

At 9.30 pm he says he walked round to the front door of his apartment with MO. Approx. one and a half mins. Then he goes to the loo. Then at -

9.32pm He finds that his daughter has been sick. He runs her a bath, changes her clothes, answers the door to MO, puts his daughter in the bath, changes all the bedding, finds her some clean clothes, gets her dry and redressed, puts all the washing into the washing machine, and is sitting in the lounge reading his daughter a book by the time JT arrives back by 9.40pm. It has to have been 9.40pm at the latest because he says they were together for 5 mins and then he was back at the Tapas by -

9.45pm (the waiter's statement is in agreement with this) where he reordered his main meal, which took 10 mins to arrive (the waiter found this meal half finished after the group had left the table.
Unquote



So if I read this correctly

9.32 finds daughter has been sick.
so we have to be very very precise with the next set of timings here. 
He picks her up, hugs her tells her she is going to be ok, probably checks her temperature. has to be 2 minutes (very very quick cuddle)
9.34 walks to the bathroom and starts to run the bath. 1 minute
9.35 undresses daughter - bath would still be running. 1 minute
9.36 answers door to MO who is sent off with instructions to get JT. 1 minute
9.37 bathes daughter so bath must now be run. Now does he leave her in the bath alone by herself because he then says he went off to -
9.38 change the bedding. 1 minute (don't believe for 1 minute a man can achieve that LOL)
9.37 sorts out some clean nightwear
9.38 takes his daughter out of the bath - so she was either there for 2 minutes alone or stood shivering and wet while he did all these other chores
9.39 dries and dresses her - has to be 2minutes
9.41 collects up all the dirty washing and puts it into the machine, adds the detergent, sets it (even though it will be in Portuguese) and turns it on.  Yeah right even the best housewife has to take time to look at someone elses washing machine!! 
from 9.36 - 9.41 MO has gone and collected JT who now returns and finds him sat with daughter all clean and crisp, housework done, bed changed and story being read and then he hands his poorly child over to JT while he trots back for his food.

What a load of Hans Christian Anderson.
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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Guest on 02.09.13 20:18

@windchime wrote:[ [...]
What a load of Hans Christian Anderson.
***
Or Grimm brothers ...
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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Truthandjustice on 25.09.13 13:51

Makes sense if she didn't leave the table.  I have been pondering why Jane Tanner was involved in the whole shebang at all.  I can understand Payne's possible involvement as the closest friend of Gerry there (and as a consequence possibly his wife and mother in law) - all that weird stuff around him visiting Kate earlier in the evening doesn't sit right.  Here's a theory....what if Jane DID see Gerry carrying Madeleine away earlier in the evening (after the 'accident' and before Tapas) and had no option but to get involved at that point.  Perhaps she based her description on what she saw, just changing the timing and adding in Jez W after she heard Gerry relate that meeting upon returning to the Tapas table.  That would explain them not seeing her and the disagreement about side of the road etc (she was just guessing about those details).  What do you think?

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by jeanmonroe on 25.09.13 13:58

@Truthandjustice wrote:Makes sense if she didn't leave the table.  I have been pondering why Jane Tanner was involved in the whole shebang at all.  I can understand Payne's possible involvement as the closest friend of Gerry there (and as a consequence possibly his wife and mother in law) - all that weird stuff around him visiting Kate earlier in the evening doesn't sit right.  Here's a theory....what if Jane DID see Gerry carrying Madeleine away earlier in the evening (after the 'accident' and before Tapas) and had no option but to get involved at that point.  Perhaps she based her description on what she saw, just changing the timing and adding in Jez W after she heard Gerry relate that meeting upon returning to the Tapas table.  That would explain them not seeing her and the disagreement about side of the road etc (she was just guessing about those details).  What do you think?
If it looks like a scam, sounds like a scam, smells like a scam........................it's a SCAM!

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by russiandoll on 25.09.13 13:59

Makes sense to me apart from why JT would have had "  no option " but to get involved after witnessing such a sight.
  As she was not especially keen on Gerry according to her witness statement and was not a close friend of either McCann, what kind of leverage might have been used to force her to come on board with the cover-up?

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by jeanmonroe on 25.09.13 14:13

Truthandjustice wrote:
"Perhaps she based her description on what she saw, just changing the timing and adding in Jez W after she heard Gerry relate that meeting upon returning to the Tapas table. That would explain them not seeing her and the disagreement about side of the road etc"

UNFORTUNATELY!
STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTHS!
Page 886
Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been COLLECTIVELY PREPARED by the NINE PEOPLE OF THE GROUP in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.

2115: JT leaves table, and SEES GM talking with fellow resident ("Jez" Wilkins) OUTSIDE the patio gate of 5A. The two were standing just up the hill from the gate towards Rua A. da Silva Road. She did not speak to GM as she passed.

[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
Original written in English.
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As RECALLED by:

Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B

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Re: Jane Tanner didn't leave the table that night - Joseph Moura

Post by Truthandjustice on 25.09.13 14:45

@russiandoll wrote:Makes sense to me apart from why JT would have had "  no option " but to get involved after witnessing such a sight.
  As she was not especially keen on Gerry according to her witness statement and was not a close friend of either McCann, what kind of leverage might have been used to force her to come on board with the cover-up?
Hmm good point.

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