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Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

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Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 08.06.17 15:31

I've been watching the inevitable media debate of whether UK police officers should be armed.

I was the wife of a UK armed police officer who was tactically trained (that training is a tough thing to pass) and I've watched to me the silly media coverage in the light of terrorist attacks whether all police officers in UK should be issued with guns.

I can tell you right now I don't think they should. I'm of the opinion that there should be more investment in ARV.

I've listened to the arguments for 'plod' to be armed. It doesn't make sense to me. Bear me out one moment if you will.

When my ex husband joined the UK police, he ordered a stab proof vest from USA - I think it was called something like a kevlar vest. I had no real idea how stabbings were so much of a threat. I was horrified that we were paying for something to protect him when his employers didn't.

My husband then went on to become firearm trained. That was a very brave thing to do.

Today, I've lifted this from Colin Sutton's Twitter feed from the wife of a police officer and I feel I'm being taken back to something thirty years ago except for the fact that it's pointedly slushy and a little bit too 'promotional'.


Whilst I fully understand the bravery of police officers and the worry their families have for their safety (I had the same concerns remember), is it right for all police officers in UK to be armed?

I don't think so.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by polyenne on 08.06.17 18:57

III agree with you totally Aquila. I believe if we armed all police officers, it would be the thin end of a very thick wedge and a number of things would happen.

Within a relatively short space of time, there would be more gun crime appearing.

The quality of police training, where guns are concerned, would suffer as the additional time required to properly train them would not be apportioned.

I believe recruitment would suffer due to the need for added responsibility.

I do agree that additional Armed Rapid Response units are required though
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by plebgate on 09.06.17 11:14

@polyenne wrote:III agree with you totally Aquila. I believe if we armed all police officers, it would be the thin end of a very thick wedge and a number of things would happen.

Within a relatively short space of time, there would be more gun crime appearing.

The quality of police training, where guns are concerned, would suffer as the additional time required to properly train them would not be apportioned.

I believe recruitment would suffer due to the need for added responsibility.

I do agree that additional Armed Rapid Response units are required though
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What annoys me is that Uk seems to have to change and not the people who are allowed into the UK.   If people want to come and live in this country they need to adapt to our ways and stop any form of violence.   I think it is ridiculous that people seem to think that it is acceptable to arm all our police because TPTB will not act against the terrible acts of violence and terror against us.

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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by JimbobJones on 09.06.17 16:08

Yes, arm the police. And let the general public defend themselves with firearms too. TPTB successfully (from their point of view) disarmed the general public, first pistols and self loading weapons, then shotguns. How are you supposed to defend your loved ones from armed criminals? Call the police? You will be dead by then.
Criminals have no fear of resistance from a population emasculated by TPTB. One thing that worries me the most is a home invasion by violent criminals, why shouldn't I be allowed to defend myself. I would rather face the courts AFTERWARDS than watch my loved ones suffer at the hands of criminals, but it SHOULD NOT have to be that way.

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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by polyenne on 09.06.17 16:21

Jimbob, you are allowed to use "reasonable and proportionate" force against a person or persons who enter or are attempting to enter your premises. Unfortunately, unless you have a shotgun licence, this will not be via use of a firearm.

Indeed, just recently, much to the consternation of my wife (and amusement of my kids), and on the back of recent events, I purchased 2 large baseball bats, one for upstairs and one for down. My wife is about the same height as said bat.

If anyone fancies entering my house without my permission, Gawd 'Elp 'Em.

PS my daughter is a county policewoman.....she totally gets it
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 09.06.17 16:57

Not so many years ago if a police officer used a truncheon to clobber someone in the line of duty, the truncheon had to be submitted for analysis.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 09.06.17 17:37

To arm all UK police officers will change the fabric of our culture and that scares me.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 09.06.17 18:31

@JimbobJones wrote:Yes, arm the police. And let the general public defend themselves with firearms too. TPTB successfully (from their point of view) disarmed the general public, first pistols and self loading weapons, then shotguns. How are you supposed to defend your loved ones from armed criminals? Call the police? You will be dead by then.
Criminals have no fear of resistance from a population emasculated by TPTB. One thing that worries me the most is a home invasion by violent criminals, why shouldn't I be allowed to defend myself. I would rather face the courts AFTERWARDS than watch my loved ones suffer at the hands of criminals, but it SHOULD NOT have to be that way.
Do you really think it's ok for firearms to be the norm in UK households?

I ask this as I lived in South Africa and was held hostage by gunmen.

Had I owned a gun there is no doubt in my mind that I would have shot the bastards who pointed a gun at me, tied me up, dragged me around the house and threatened me with knives.

But that's Johannesburg. It's not your average Sunday morning in UK is it?
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by JimbobJones on 09.06.17 18:53

Yes, I would welcome responsible firearm ownership, like Switzerland.Your incident is exactly the kind of situation I dread. When you need it if you havn't got it you might regret it.
Did you get over it OK?

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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 09.06.17 19:01

@JimbobJones wrote:Yes, I would welcome responsible firearm ownership, like Switzerland.Your incident is exactly the kind of situation I dread. When you need it if you havn't got it you might regret it.
Did you get over it OK?

No

It's not the fabric of British culture. In South Africa there is always the threat of gun crime/gun ownership. I never ever want to see that on the streets of UK.

I can't imagine for one minute that a UK citizen can carry a firearm to protect himself deemed acceptable. Christ almighty, how do you licence your average fellow to be a responsible gun owner?

I say this with knowledge of a gun owner in South Africa who shot someone and killed them. He then went on many years later to shoot himself. His family were left with the guns and didn't know what to do with them. The answer was to give them not to the corrupt police but to render them to a gun club.

Where do you go when you think it's ok to be armed?
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by plebgate on 09.06.17 21:33

No the police should not be armed.   This is our country and the answer is to sort out the violent crime in the country.   Zero tolerance imo is the way to go.  Every day in the papers we see really violent criminal walking free with what amounts to a slap on the wrist and yet instead of holding TBTB to account for putting us all in such violent harms way, some think the answer is to arm UK police.   I am totally against it.

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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 10.06.17 14:47

There are a lot of issues to be taken into account when considering the arming of all UK police officers and being a staunch supporter of the police in our country I could list a lot of reasons why it's not a good idea.

As a British civilian I can also say that arming all police officers would change our culture. We are not a gun culture. The moment we allow ourselves to become a gun culture we are well and truly screwed.

There's no doubt we need more armed response in UK to tackle not just terrorism but the removal of weapons from our society. We also we need more beat officers on our streets with powers to stop and search - and not making them do shifts alone with no refreshment breaks to talk to colleagues because police stations have been closed.

We need more respect for our police service for the things they encounter and do everyday - and I'm not talking about governmental promotion of heroic acts in times of crisis to make the government look good. The police do that everyday.

The general election has (if I'm correct) cost around £130 million, funds that were readily found and spent on a vanity project.

In the lead up to the general election were three horrific terror attacks and the armed police were drafted in from all over the country, cancelled leave, rest days gone etc to make a government look as though they were on top of things with more than a slight hint by Amber Rudd that the face of policing has changed because it's now more intelligence based.

Not good enough!

Recruit more police and stop treating them as political pawns.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by jeanmonroe on 10.06.17 15:41

Should ALL UK Police 'detectives' INVESTIGATE 'cases' to the BEST of their 'ability'?

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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 10.06.17 16:15

@jeanmonroe wrote:Should ALL UK Police 'detectives' INVESTIGATE 'cases' to the BEST of their 'ability'?
If you're referring to the political travesty that is Operation Grange and the successive switching of leading staff, the deceit and the lack of transparency, which I assume you are, then look no further to the chief constables, the senior, soon to be retired ranks and the yes men manipulated by a government.

Don't place ordinary coppers in the same class.

ETA: I seem to recall Matt Baggott introducing the most extraordinary secrecy measures on UK police.

This thread is about should all UK police be armed. If that happens God help the police officers and God help us all.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 12.06.17 16:52

@polyenne wrote:III agree with you totally Aquila. I believe if we armed all police officers, it would be the thin end of a very thick wedge and a number of things would happen.

Within a relatively short space of time, there would be more gun crime appearing.

The quality of police training, where guns are concerned, would suffer as the additional time required to properly train them would not be apportioned.

I believe recruitment would suffer due to the need for added responsibility.

I do agree that additional Armed Rapid Response units are required though
Here's a few thoughts on the matter as I see it.

How would the police service recruit officers and assess them on their capability to carry a gun and the fact they may have to kill someone even before they undergo basic training as a constable? That's for the Army to do isn't it?

Would arming all police officers attract the right candidate?

Would arming all police officers discourage civic minded human beings (your average police officer) from joining?

How would the police service alter the criteria for the recruitment of a UK copper?

I agree with you polyenne, to arm all UK police would perpetuate gun crime on the average bobby from the criminal classes. It would probably make them more of a target.

It also has the potential to desensitize the perception of policing to the UK general public who by and large like the police and appreciate them - except for moaning about response times which isn't the fault of the police but the shameful lack of funding and the higher echelons within the police service who decline to stand up for the very service in which they chose to enlist.

I've seen a lot of comment from police in EU countries (media biased) to say they don't know how or why our police remain unarmed.

It's a culture change that I never want to see. Apart from the fact it's unfeasible, our current tradition of having crack trained armed response officers who have become police officers before being armed to me is the best possible thing.

Hope I've explained my rambling thoughts.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by BlueBag on 12.06.17 19:33

I think responsible UK citizens should be armed.

Like Switzerland and Sweden.

I mean RESPONSIBLE citizens.

There will be incidents (there are now!) but overall we would be safer.

The Americans have the second amendment for extremely good reasons.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 12.06.17 19:38

@BlueBag wrote:I think responsible UK citizens should be armed.

Like Switzerland and Sweden.

I mean RESPONSIBLE citizens.

There will be incidents (there are now!) but overall we would be safer.

The Americans have the second amendment for extremely good reasons.
How about this idea. Guns are for criminals and armed police should disarm criminals.

Let the general population of UK not worry about being responsible enough to be armed. On the whole we don't need to be.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by Brookers on 13.06.17 0:21

No they should not be armed (except for the RRT)

I remember years ago being asked to look after witnesses in a serious global murder case (several people murdered) and having to undertake firearms training in order to do so,  I said no - because I didn't sign up to it in the first place when I joined the Police. I knew I would have to 'look after' these folk for a long time before it got to trial (it was almost 18 months in the end) - the people who did look after them - got too close and to complacent with their firearms - taking them to discos and being to friendly with their charges - in more ways than you can imagine!

I was not for me and I suspect the vast majority of Police Officers - then and now
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by Brookers on 13.06.17 0:22

feel the same
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by jeanmonroe on 13.06.17 2:11

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40252299

Devon and Cornwall police chief in armed civilians row.

13th June 2017

A police chief has found herself at odds with her own force by saying she would look into whether gun owners could act as armed civilians in the event of a terror attack.
Alison Hernandez, Devon and Cornwall's police and crime commissioner, was on a BBC Radio Cornwall phone-in when a caller suggested the idea.
Ms Hernandez said she would "really be interested" in exploring the issue.
The force said armed civilians would risk being caught in the crossfire.
Deputy Chief Constable Paul Netherton said it was "definitely an emphatic 'no'" that the people should be arming themselves against such a threat.

'this' Alison Hernandez

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-36257619

Expenses probe PCC Alison Hernandez branded 'arrogant'

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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by BlueBag on 13.06.17 10:24

@aquila wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:I think responsible UK citizens should be armed.

Like Switzerland and Sweden.

I mean RESPONSIBLE citizens.

There will be incidents (there are now!) but overall we would be safer.

The Americans have the second amendment for extremely good reasons.
How about this idea. Guns are for criminals and armed police should disarm criminals.

Let the general population of UK not worry about being responsible enough to be armed. On the whole we don't need to be.
You don't understand why the USA has the 2nd amendment then.

It protects the 1st amendment.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by aquila on 16.06.17 19:53

@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:I think responsible UK citizens should be armed.

Like Switzerland and Sweden.

I mean RESPONSIBLE citizens.

There will be incidents (there are now!) but overall we would be safer.

The Americans have the second amendment for extremely good reasons.
How about this idea. Guns are for criminals and armed police should disarm criminals.

Let the general population of UK not worry about being responsible enough to be armed. On the whole we don't need to be.
You don't understand why the USA has the 2nd amendment then.

It protects the 1st amendment.
We're not USA. Look what gun culture did to USA.
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Re: Should All UK Police Officers be armed/

Post by Rob Royston on 16.06.17 21:36

@aquila wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
@aquila wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:I think responsible UK citizens should be armed.

Like Switzerland and Sweden.

I mean RESPONSIBLE citizens.

There will be incidents (there are now!) but overall we would be safer.

The Americans have the second amendment for extremely good reasons.
How about this idea. Guns are for criminals and armed police should disarm criminals.

Let the general population of UK not worry about being responsible enough to be armed. On the whole we don't need to be.
You don't understand why the USA has the 2nd amendment then.

It protects the 1st amendment.
We're not USA. Look what gun culture did to USA.
There were no armed police or criminals walking our streets when the public owned guns. Now they are everywhere except where the terrorists are, just like CCTV.

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