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the smith sighting

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Tue Apr 04 2017, 17:19

Oh Lord, I've just looked at another Madeleine website, (found them by accident this week) to see if they had noticed those strange posts re passports that have taken over here, and I swear to God, they think I'm an alias of Tony Bennett. How nutty can people be??  eek
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Tue Apr 04 2017, 21:19

Still can't work out how to post onto existing post! I mentioned in post above that I felt the Smiths might have been influenced to make a statement by others who knew them and also knew Murat. Just found this - Drogheda Independent article by Angela McCormick, Wed. June 6th 2007. 'Local family may have seen missing Maddy' "A number of Drogheda based families holiday in the nearby Estrela da Luz apartments, part of a complex built by Drogheda man Gerry Fagin of Oceanico Developments. 'Estrela de Luz is just around the corner from Praia de Luz. Loads of Drogheda people go there' said Jem O'Neill, a regular visitor". The Smith apartment was co-owned by Liam O'Neill. Maybe not a relative. However, there were "loads" of Drogheda people around Praia de Luz who possibly knew Murat and influenced the Smiths.
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by JulieC on Tue Apr 04 2017, 21:21

Phoebe wrote:Still can't work out how to post onto existing post! I mentioned in post above that I felt the Smiths might have been influenced to make a statement by others who knew them and also knew Murat. Just found this - Drogheda Independent article by Angela McCormick, Wed. June 6th 2007. 'Local family may have seen missing Maddy' "A number of Drogheda based families holiday in the nearby Estrela da Luz apartments, part of a complex built by Drogheda man Gerry Fagin of Oceanico Developments. 'Estrela de Luz is just around the corner from Praia de Luz. Loads of Drogheda people go there' said Jem O'Neill, a regular visitor". The Smith apartment was co-owned by Liam O'Neill. Maybe not a relative. However, there were "loads" of Drogheda people around Praia de Luz who possibly knew Murat and influenced the Smiths.

If you mean like this just click on the Quote tab above the post you're referring to.
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Tue Apr 04 2017, 21:23

JulieC wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Still can't work out how to post onto existing post! I mentioned in post above that I felt the Smiths might have been influenced to make a statement by others who knew them and also knew Murat. Just found this - Drogheda Independent article by Angela McCormick, Wed. June 6th 2007. 'Local family may have seen missing Maddy' "A number of Drogheda based families holiday in the nearby Estrela da Luz apartments, part of a complex built by Drogheda man Gerry Fagin of Oceanico Developments. 'Estrela de Luz is just around the corner from Praia de Luz. Loads of Drogheda people go there' said Jem O'Neill, a regular visitor". The Smith apartment was co-owned by Liam O'Neill. Maybe not a relative. However, there were "loads" of Drogheda people around Praia de Luz who possibly knew Murat and influenced the Smiths.

If you mean like this just click on the Quote tab above the post you're referring to.
Thanks. giving it a go  high5
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by JRP on Tue Apr 04 2017, 22:16

Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Oh Lord, I've just looked at another Madeleine website, (found them by accident this week) to see if they had noticed those strange posts re passports that have taken over here, and I swear to God, they think I'm an alias of Tony Bennett. How nutty can people be??  eek
big grin  Anyone who agrees with Tony, in any shape or forum, is Tony talking to himself according to them.

Verdi is Tony, PeterMac is Tony, HiDeHo is Tony, Richard is Tony and I'm Tony even though, according to them, I'm having an affair with Tony - Tony having an affair with Tony, a bit awkward, but they believe it.

Tony, Tony, Tony. But then Andrew does admit to being obsessed with Tony.
He sounds like a bunny boiler to me.

Oh, and another one is that they think PeterMac is dead and I've cloned him.
Plus we all work for the McCanns.

I know which website you're referring to.

My beloved football team are playing some southerners called Bournemouth tomorrow night. The last time we (Liverpool) played Bournemouth, we lost. Tomorrow, will be sweeeeeet revenge!!!!
However, I will not be able to attend the match, as Richard D Hall is at the Adelphi Hotel, and so will I.

Now, I think Tony supports Bournemouth, but if Richard is Tony, Tony might be at the match disguised as Richard, and I'll be on my own. I think there is something in this theory.

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Tony Bennett on Tue Apr 04 2017, 22:45

JRP wrote:
Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Oh Lord, I've just looked at another Madeleine website, (found them by accident this week) to see if they had noticed those strange posts re passports that have taken over here, and I swear to God, they think I'm an alias of Tony Bennett. How nutty can people be?? 
Anyone who agrees with Tony, in any shape or forum, is Tony talking to himself according to them.
My beloved football team are playing some southerners called Bournemouth tomorrow night. The last time we (Liverpool) played Bournemouth, we lost. Tomorrow, will be sweeeeeet revenge!!!! However, I will not be able to attend the match...
I expect Liverpool to win. Their defence, especially their goalkeeper, were in a generous mood earlier in the season when they met Bournemouth. And revenge for that defeat will be a spur.

Nice to see a couple of positive managers whose teams play fair shaking hands after a game - doesn't always apply these days:



      Jurgen Klopp (LIVERPOOL FC)    >>>>>>   Eddie Howe (AFC BOURNEMOUTH)

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Roxyroo on Wed Apr 05 2017, 01:21

Phoebe wrote:Still can't work out how to post onto existing post! I mentioned in post above that I felt the Smiths might have been influenced to make a statement by others who knew them and also knew Murat. Just found this - Drogheda Independent article by Angela McCormick, Wed. June 6th 2007. 'Local family may have seen missing Maddy' "A number of Drogheda based families holiday in the nearby Estrela da Luz apartments, part of a complex built by Drogheda man Gerry Fagin of Oceanico Developments. 'Estrela de Luz is just around the corner from Praia de Luz. Loads of Drogheda people go there' said Jem O'Neill, a regular visitor". The Smith apartment was co-owned by Liam O'Neill. Maybe not a relative. However, there were "loads" of Drogheda people around Praia de Luz who possibly knew Murat and influenced the Smiths.

@phoebe  if you mean what ive just done here to reply to you, you just click on the "quote" button at the top right hand side of the post you want to copy or reply to.
If you want to paste something of interest into your post then the way to do it on a smart phone or tablet with touchscreen tech. is to hold whatever it is down, i.e. just push your finger on to it fr a couple of  seconds and you should be given a wee pop up menu that will give u the options to copy. Click copy, this then puts it onto an imaginary clipboard (i.e. you cannot actually see a clipboard but just imagine its there ok) then come back to wherever you want to put your copied info and hold down your finger again fr a few seconds, this will give u a wee pop up word saying "paste" click that and hey presto it should appear. If you arent using smart tech then clicking the right mouse button usually gives you the same options, as far as i can remember, sorry but its a long time since ive had a pc or even a laptop.
Good luck!

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Wed Apr 05 2017, 09:21

Roxyroo wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Still can't work out how to post onto existing post! I mentioned in post above that I felt the Smiths might have been influenced to make a statement by others who knew them and also knew Murat. Just found this - Drogheda Independent article by Angela McCormick, Wed. June 6th 2007. 'Local family may have seen missing Maddy' "A number of Drogheda based families holiday in the nearby Estrela da Luz apartments, part of a complex built by Drogheda man Gerry Fagin of Oceanico Developments. 'Estrela de Luz is just around the corner from Praia de Luz. Loads of Drogheda people go there' said Jem O'Neill, a regular visitor". The Smith apartment was co-owned by Liam O'Neill. Maybe not a relative. However, there were "loads" of Drogheda people around Praia de Luz who possibly knew Murat and influenced the Smiths.

@phoebe  if you mean what ive just done here to reply to you, you just click on the "quote" button at the top right hand side of the post you want to copy or reply to.
If you want to paste something of interest into your post then the way to do it on a smart phone or tablet with touchscreen tech. is to hold whatever it is down, i.e. just push your finger on to it fr a couple of  seconds and you should be given a wee pop up menu that will give u the options to copy. Click copy, this then puts it onto an imaginary clipboard (i.e. you cannot actually see a clipboard but just imagine its there ok) then come back to wherever you want to put your copied info and hold down your finger again fr a few seconds, this will give u a wee pop up word saying "paste" click that and hey presto it should appear. If you arent using smart tech then clicking the right mouse button usually gives you the same options, as far as i can remember, sorry but its a long time since ive had a pc or even a laptop.
Good luck!
Thanks Julie and Roxyroo. Still using laptop I fear. Only tablets I have are in medicine cupboard  high5
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Tony Bennett on Wed Apr 05 2017, 10:15

pennylane wrote:
aquila wrote:Goncalo Amaral was obligated to investigate such a sighting. He may well have come to the conclusion that it was a fabrication but was unable to pursue his investigation as he was removed from the case.

Well you could say the opposite also, in that GA may well have confirmed it was indeed Gerry McCann the Smiths saw, which (imo) it was, and he was getting too close to the truth so was removed.
@ pennylane    Central to your thinking on the case has always been this: that Martin Smith really saw Gerry McCann carrying Madeleine McCann (dead) on Thursday 3 May at about 9.55pm to 10.00pm. You also support her death after 6pm that very night.

To sustain those theories, you would need to carefully account for all the following, and much more:

1. Why did the Smiths not report their sighting until the day after Murat, whom Martin Smith knew well, was made a formal suspect - and then only after Peter Smith 'phoned his father and said: "Am I dreaming, or did we see someone carrying a child 13 days ago in Praia da Luz?"

2. Why each one of the Smiths, in their statements, said that because they'd only seen the man for a second or two in the dark, they would never be able to recognise him again if they saw him

3. Why the three Smiths who gave statements described Wojchiech Krokowski - in no fewer than 17 specific instances using almost exactly the same descriptions as those of Tannerman by Jane Tanner, and by Nuno Lourenco of Wojchiech Krokowski 

4. How Martin Smith could possibly claim to have identified Gerry McCann only from 'the way he was carrying Sean' down an aeroplane steps on 9 September, having regard to (a) having said 4 months previoulsy that he'd never be able to recognise the man again if he saw him and (b) the fact that any right-handed man will normally carry an infant on his left shoulder

4. Why Martin Smith waited 11 days (until 20 September) before reporting his claim to be, quote, '60% to 80% sure' it was Gerry McCann he had seen 4 months before

5. Why he agreed to talk to Brian Kennedy in December 2007 and why thereafter he and his family have consistently co-operated with the McCann Team and Operation Grange and urged people to 'look for Madeleine and find the abductor'

6. How, a whole year later, any of the Smiths could possibly draw up any facial efit, never mind of two quite different looking faces

7. Why Gerry McCann would decide to walk through the streets of Praia da Liz with his uncovered dead child at the very moment his wife and their friends were raising the alarm about Madeleine being missing, and

8. Why you reject the many separate lines of evidence that suggest that something very serious may have happened to Madeleine on the Sunday or Monday.

It is remarkable how those who say: 'Martin Smith saw Gerry McCann' seem totally unable to answer these (and so many other) questions. 


.

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Wed Apr 05 2017, 11:40

Indeed! the veracity of the Smith's statements need a large pinch of salt IMO! Aoife, allegedly, later described buttons on Smithman's trousers. Where were these "buttons"- on the flies? the side pockets? Given that she couldn't initially remember whether the child was barefoot and given that its feet would have been positioned near this part of the the carrier's trousers such a contradiction smacks of invention! I also find it strange that the others in the Smith group never made statements to the P.J. and that the P.J. felt the need to to ask Aoife to tell the truth.
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Rob Royston on Wed Apr 05 2017, 13:02

Phoebe wrote:Indeed! the veracity of the Smith's statements need a large pinch of salt IMO! Aoife, allegedly, later described buttons on Smithman's trousers. Where were these "buttons"- on the flies? the side pockets? Given that she couldn't initially remember whether the child was barefoot and given that its feet would have been positioned near this part of the the carrier's trousers such a contradiction smacks of invention! I also find it strange that the others in the Smith group never made statements to the P.J. and that the P.J. felt the need to to ask Aoife to tell the truth.
Lots of pictures on Google if you search Gerry McCann button trousers, here's just one.

http://thesmithsighting.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/aoife-smith-describing-gerry-mccanns.html

If you try and find them without mention of Gerry you will realize that they are a very rare and unusual design. There is a picture of them on Gerry's bed taken on the night of "the abduction".

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Wed Apr 05 2017, 16:46

Rob Royston wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Indeed! the veracity of the Smith's statements need a large pinch of salt IMO! Aoife, allegedly, later described buttons on Smithman's trousers. Where were these "buttons"- on the flies? the side pockets? Given that she couldn't initially remember whether the child was barefoot and given that its feet would have been positioned near this part of the the carrier's trousers such a contradiction smacks of invention! I also find it strange that the others in the Smith group never made statements to the P.J. and that the P.J. felt the need to to ask Aoife to tell the truth.
Lots of pictures on Google if you search Gerry McCann button trousers, here's just one.

http://thesmithsighting.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/aoife-smith-describing-gerry-mccanns.html

If you try and find them without mention of Gerry you will realize that they are a very rare and unusual design. There is a picture of them on Gerry's bed taken on the night of "the abduction".
Well, my hubby must be in rarified company as he had, and still has, similar trousers! Aoife Smith must have been some kind of "hawkeye" to have ("possibly with buttons") spotted them on a dark night. I had to zoom and search for them. She also saw his face, but not his ears! She, a twelve year old, raised on Penney's and Dunnes Stores clothes and track suits (like all Irish kids her age) can tell that his trousers "were cotton, thicker than linen". What did she do - cop a feel of them when he was passing to check for quality? She couldn't tell what he was wearing on top but her cousin claims it was a "black jacket". Are we to believe that his arm which was wrapped around the child in front of her escaped her notice, but she examined the side of his legs as he strode past and spotted small, colour coordinated buttons in the dim light? No wonder the cops, immediateley after this asked her to tell the truth.
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Tony Bennett on Wed Apr 05 2017, 17:51

Phoebe wrote:
Rob Royston wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Indeed! the veracity of the Smith's statements need a large pinch of salt IMO! Aoife, allegedly, later described buttons on Smithman's trousers. Where were these "buttons"- on the flies? the side pockets? Given that she couldn't initially remember whether the child was barefoot and given that its feet would have been positioned near this part of the the carrier's trousers such a contradiction smacks of invention! I also find it strange that the others in the Smith group never made statements to the P.J. and that the P.J. felt the need to to ask Aoife to tell the truth.
Lots of pictures on Google if you search Gerry McCann button trousers, here's just one.
Well, my hubby must be in rarified company as he had, and still has, similar trousers! Aoife Smith must have been some kind of "hawkeye" to have ("possibly with buttons") spotted them on a dark night. I had to zoom and search for them. She also saw his face, but not his ears! She, a twelve year old, raised on Penney's and Dunnes Stores clothes and track suits (like all Irish kids her age) can tell that his trousers "were cotton, thicker than linen". What did she do - cop a feel of them when he was passing to check for quality? She couldn't tell what he was wearing on top but her cousin claims it was a "black jacket". Are we to believe that his arm which was wrapped around the child in front of her escaped her notice, but she examined the side of his legs as he strode past and spotted small, colour coordinated buttons in the dim light? No wonder the cops, immediately after this asked her to tell the truth.
There are two possible explanations for the above, bearing in mind the following FACT - namely that before the Smiths gave their statements on 26 May 2007 - 23 days after Madeleine had been reported missing - photographs of Gerry McCann wearing trousers with buttons were already in circulation (see, e.g. Rob Royston's post above):

Alternative 1: Aoife Smith had the most remarkable powers of observation of a man seen for about 2 seconds in the dark,

or

Alternative 2: Aoife Smith was coached by her father about what details she should give to the police about a bloke none of them ever saw.

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Wed Apr 05 2017, 19:07

Tony Bennett wrote:
Phoebe wrote:
Rob Royston wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Indeed! the veracity of the Smith's statements need a large pinch of salt IMO! Aoife, allegedly, later described buttons on Smithman's trousers. Where were these "buttons"- on the flies? the side pockets? Given that she couldn't initially remember whether the child was barefoot and given that its feet would have been positioned near this part of the the carrier's trousers such a contradiction smacks of invention! I also find it strange that the others in the Smith group never made statements to the P.J. and that the P.J. felt the need to to ask Aoife to tell the truth.
Lots of pictures on Google if you search Gerry McCann button trousers, here's just one.
Well, my hubby must be in rarified company as he had, and still has, similar trousers! Aoife Smith must have been some kind of "hawkeye" to have ("possibly with buttons") spotted them on a dark night. I had to zoom and search for them. She also saw his face, but not his ears! She, a twelve year old, raised on Penney's and Dunnes Stores clothes and track suits (like all Irish kids her age) can tell that his trousers "were cotton, thicker than linen". What did she do - cop a feel of them when he was passing to check for quality? She couldn't tell what he was wearing on top but her cousin claims it was a "black jacket". Are we to believe that his arm which was wrapped around the child in front of her escaped her notice, but she examined the side of his legs as he strode past and spotted small, colour coordinated buttons in the dim light? No wonder the cops, immediately after this asked her to tell the truth.
There are two possible explanations for the above, bearing in mind the following FACT - namely that before the Smiths gave their statements on 26 May 2007 - 23 days after Madeleine had been reported missing - photographs of Gerry McCann wearing trousers with buttons were already in circulation (see, e.g. Rob Royston's post above):

Alternative 1: Aoife Smith had the most remarkable powers of observation of a man seen for about 2 seconds in the dark,

or

Alternative 2: Aoife Smith was coached by her father about what details she should give to the police about a bloke none of them ever saw.
Alternative 2 is the only option. Definitely fed her lines. The fact that the P.J bothered to include a written notation in a formal statement that she was asked to tell the truth tells it all. Was n't Jane Tanner's first description released, reluctantly, by the P.J after pressure from the McCanns et al. the day before, May 25th? What a coincidence!
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Wed Apr 05 2017, 20:36

Searching the Irish newspaper archives is a treasure trove re Smithman. According to the Drogheda Independent of Wed. August 8th 2007 the Smiths said they only contacted police after their return to Ireland because one of the family had a "Flashback and encouraged the others to jog their memory. They remembered passing a man walking toward the beach with a child in his arms. Other than his approximate height and the fact that he was wearing beige clothes (no mention of jacket) they cannot be more specific than that. 'We are annoyed at how vague our description is' said the family member." Strange statement, having given such minute detail as small trouser buttons earlier. In this piece the Smiths make it clear to their local paper that they never made any report of the sighting until after they returned to Ireland - "Because the reported abduction times didn't ORIGINALLY ??? match they never had cause to examine their journey that night".  What the hell does "Originally match" mean? If they saw him at a certain time, then they saw him at that time. Match what exactly?
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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Rob Royston on Wed Apr 05 2017, 23:15

Phoebe wrote:"Because the reported abduction times didn't ORIGINALLY ??? match they never had cause to examine their journey that night".  What the hell does "Originally match" mean? If they saw him at a certain time, then they saw him at that time. Match what exactly?

They did not match the original reported abduction time of 21:15, I would guess.
I know the original sighting statement was not released immediately, but I'm pretty sure the papers would have had timelines in their stories from the get go.

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Rob Royston on Wed Apr 05 2017, 23:31

Phoebe wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Phoebe wrote:
Rob Royston wrote:
Phoebe wrote:Indeed! the veracity of the Smith's statements need a large pinch of salt IMO! Aoife, allegedly, later described buttons on Smithman's trousers. Where were these "buttons"- on the flies? the side pockets? Given that she couldn't initially remember whether the child was barefoot and given that its feet would have been positioned near this part of the the carrier's trousers such a contradiction smacks of invention! I also find it strange that the others in the Smith group never made statements to the P.J. and that the P.J. felt the need to to ask Aoife to tell the truth.
Lots of pictures on Google if you search Gerry McCann button trousers, here's just one.
Well, my hubby must be in rarified company as he had, and still has, similar trousers! Aoife Smith must have been some kind of "hawkeye" to have ("possibly with buttons") spotted them on a dark night. I had to zoom and search for them. She also saw his face, but not his ears! She, a twelve year old, raised on Penney's and Dunnes Stores clothes and track suits (like all Irish kids her age) can tell that his trousers "were cotton, thicker than linen". What did she do - cop a feel of them when he was passing to check for quality? She couldn't tell what he was wearing on top but her cousin claims it was a "black jacket". Are we to believe that his arm which was wrapped around the child in front of her escaped her notice, but she examined the side of his legs as he strode past and spotted small, colour coordinated buttons in the dim light? No wonder the cops, immediately after this asked her to tell the truth.
There are two possible explanations for the above, bearing in mind the following FACT - namely that before the Smiths gave their statements on 26 May 2007 - 23 days after Madeleine had been reported missing - photographs of Gerry McCann wearing trousers with buttons were already in circulation (see, e.g. Rob Royston's post above):

Alternative 1: Aoife Smith had the most remarkable powers of observation of a man seen for about 2 seconds in the dark,

or

Alternative 2: Aoife Smith was coached by her father about what details she should give to the police about a bloke none of them ever saw.
Alternative 2 is the only option. Definitely fed her lines. The fact that the P.J bothered to include a written notation in a formal statement that she was asked to tell the truth tells it all. Was n't Jane Tanner's first description released, reluctantly, by the P.J after pressure from the McCanns et al. the day before, May 25th? What a coincidence!
That's quite a strong accusation you have both levelled at Mr Smith. Are you both saying that he made it all up?

Regarding Alternative 1: Aoife Smith had just got to the top of the steps when she saw the man with the child a few metres to her left. It's not very clear as to how the passed each other but if she was still on the steps and the man crossed in front of her then she would have had a perfect view of the buttons.

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Re: the smith sighting

Post by Phoebe on Thu Apr 06 2017, 02:26

Rob Royston wrote:
Phoebe wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Phoebe wrote:
Rob Royston wrote:
Lots of pictures on Google if you search Gerry McCann button trousers, here's just one.
Well, my hubby must be in rarified company as he had, and still has, similar trousers! Aoife Smith must have been some kind of "hawkeye" to have ("possibly with buttons") spotted them on a dark night. I had to zoom and search for them. She also saw his face, but not his ears! She, a twelve year old, raised on Penney's and Dunnes Stores clothes and track suits (like all Irish kids her age) can tell that his trousers "were cotton, thicker than linen". What did she do - cop a feel of them when he was passing to check for quality? She couldn't tell what he was wearing on top but her cousin claims it was a "black jacket". Are we to believe that his arm which was wrapped around the child in front of her escaped her notice, but she examined the side of his legs as he strode past and spotted small, colour coordinated buttons in the dim light? No wonder the cops, immediately after this asked her to tell the truth.
There are two possible explanations for the above, bearing in mind the following FACT - namely that before the Smiths gave their statements on 26 May 2007 - 23 days after Madeleine had been reported missing - photographs of Gerry McCann wearing trousers with buttons were already in circulation (see, e.g. Rob Royston's post above):

Alternative 1: Aoife Smith had the most remarkable powers of observation of a man seen for about 2 seconds in the dark,

or

Alternative 2: Aoife Smith was coached by her father about what details she should give to the police about a bloke none of them ever saw.
Alternative 2 is the only option. Definitely fed her lines. The fact that the P.J bothered to include a written notation in a formal statement that she was asked to tell the truth tells it all. Was n't Jane Tanner's first description released, reluctantly, by the P.J after pressure from the McCanns et al. the day before, May 25th? What a coincidence!
That's quite a strong accusation you have both levelled at Mr Smith. Are you both saying that he made it all up?

Regarding Alternative 1: Aoife Smith had just got to the top of the steps when she saw the man with the child a few metres to her left. It's not very clear as to how the passed each other but if she was still on the steps and the man crossed in front of her then she would have had a perfect view of the buttons.
I genuinely cannot believe that glimpsing, on a dark street at night, an unremarkable stranger, about whom in the family's own words (Drogheda Independent Aug 2007) they could remember "nothing other than an approximation of his height and that his clothes were beige" would enable anyone would take note of and remember, over 3 weeks later, a detail such as buttons (small and of the same colour as the material) on the side of trousers. I believe the Smiths saw a harmless passerby and were influenced by other descriptions.
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Phoebe

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