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When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by suzyjohnson on 02.02.17 18:53

@skyrocket wrote:@suzyjohnson - Why would David Payne label the bedroom as 'Sean and Amelie's room' at all? 'The children's room' works fine, so why specify just the twins? According to the script, that bedroom was the room where all 3 McCann children slept all week up to around 9.30pm on 3 May. Payne enters the apartment less than an hour later - and again, if we go with the script, Madeleine was missing from the bed by the door. According to Payne he had been in the McCanns' apartment on at least half a dozen occasions - on at least one occasion, messing around with the travel cots, so more than likely he had been in both bedrooms or at least was aware of where the children were all sleeping. In his mind, under those circumstances, I don't believe he would have called the room 'Sean and Amelie's'. 

Now, had something happened to Madeleine on possibly the Sunday evening (or even the Saturday evening), then perhaps this bedroom was fixed in Payne's mind as being only the twins's. The twins were moved out the room and the apartment vacated around 2am 4 May, so there is no reason that the concept of this bedroom being 'Sean and Amelie's' would have become fixed after the event.

Hope that makes sense. smilie

Yes, it makes sense skyrocket. It was the fact of DP having said 'Sean and Amelie's room' that jumped out at me straight away, there is definitely some significance to that although I have no idea what.

I didn't know Payne had been into the bedrooms previously. I think describing the room as 'the children's room' would be much more likely than 'Sean and Amelie's room' under the circumstances of this being Madeleine's usual room.  Why, in his mind, was this room not Madeleine's room?

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by empath on 02.02.17 20:40

Tbf he would have said the kids/childrens room, the only reason he would say saun and amelies room is if Maddie didnt sleep in there/

Few reasons

Maddie slept in the parents room/she could even have been put in the cot that was meant to have been in there/leading to an accident when getting out 

Maddie wasnt around the whole of the holiday 
Maddie
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 02.02.17 20:55

This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be.

David Payne's rogatory interview is a record of garbled nonsense - there isn't one coherent sentence from beginning to end  Who knows where his brain was on that particular day, it certainly wasn't in the interview room nor at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz. 


The particular sentence emphasised here, I quote "...Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there...."

One interpretation, mine in this instance - 'Madeleine used the bed which was nearest the door'.  It is of course past tense because after the alarm was raised by Kate McCann, Madeleine indeed was not there!

David Payne was aware of the layout of the McCanns apartment, he'd been in numerous times, he was their mate, no surprise he was familiar.

This is fast becoming another 'last photograph' analysis.  Enjoy!

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Copodenieve on 02.02.17 21:08

When he is talking about the layout of the McCann's apartment, he seems to be much more relaxed than in the other statements. His sentences are more flowing and easier to read and not littered as much with "errr you know". It almost feels like he felt on safe ground, and maybe that could be the reason why he slipped up?
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by skyrocket on 02.02.17 21:19

Ah @Verdi, evening (or morning in your case) a predictable response as always!  smilie

As you say, yours is but one opinion only - no more or less valid than any other. 

Payne's Rogatory - garbled yes, nonsense quite probably, but I would argue not in the way you infer and therefore far from irrelevant (IMO). I thought it was Russell's statement held the garbled, nonsense title?

Let's let members come to their own conclusions/opinions without a barrage of condescending comments - so much friendlier and relaxed for everyone.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by worriedmum on 02.02.17 21:23

verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by suzyjohnson on 02.02.17 21:43

@Verdi wrote:This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be.

David Payne's rogatory interview is a record of garbled nonsense - there isn't one coherent sentence from beginning to end  Who knows where his brain was on that particular day, it certainly wasn't in the interview room nor at the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz. 


The particular sentence emphasised here, I quote "...Madeleine was on the bed which was nearest the door that you walked in to get in there...."

One interpretation, mine in this instance - 'Madeleine used the bed which was nearest the door'.  It is of course past tense because after the alarm was raised by Kate McCann, Madeleine indeed was not there!

David Payne was aware of the layout of the McCanns apartment, he'd been in numerous times, he was their mate, no surprise he was familiar.

This is fast becoming another 'last photograph' analysis.  Enjoy!

I don't think it's that straightforward. When DP described the room (at the rogatory interview) as 'Sean and Amelie's room' this was a long time after the event of Madeleine going missing. At what point did he start to think of it as 'Sean and Amelie's room' (but not Madeleine's) ?

1) Prior to May 3 rd, presumably this was Madeleine's, Sean's and Amelie's room, collectively, 'the children'. If he is truthful about the events of May 3 rd then, he would be unlikely to think of the room as just Sean and Amelies before the evening of May 3 rd.

2) Arriving at 5A after KM raised the alarm, and seeing just Sean and Amelie there he might say, 'Sean and Amelie's room in the present tense as in the room in which Sean and Amelie are in. Yet the police would surely ask, which room is Madeleine's room, or the children's room?

3) There is no reason why DP should think of the room as belonging to just Sean and Amelie after May 3 rd since the McCann family did not remain in apartment 5A after that night.

4) In the rogatory interviews you would expect the interviewee to be focusing on the missing child, so you might be thinking in terms of Kate and Gerry's room (DP's friends) and the room belonging to the missing child, 'the room on the right was Madeleine's room' but he doesn't say that.

Instead he tells the interviewer that the room on the right was the room of two secondary characters. Madeleine is missing in more than one sense.

From the opposite point of view, if Gerry was missing, DP might say the room on the right was 'the children's room' and the room on the left was Kate's room. It doesn't sound quite right because the main character has been missed out. Why?

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 03.02.17 11:42

@skyrocket wrote:Ah @Verdi, evening (or morning in your case) a predictable response as always!  smilie
You've totally lost me there - how can 20:55H (that's 8:55pm in pounds shillings and pence) be morning? 

Have I missed a punchline somewhere?

Synchronize clocks - it is now 11:42H or 11:42am.

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 03.02.17 12:04

@worriedmum wrote:verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..
Yes you're right - spot on!  Statement analysis is but opinion, or if you prefer, individual interpretation.

I acknowledge that those who work in the field, have the experience to recognize particular trends or patterns but at the end of the day it boils down to the same thing - opinion/individual interpretation open to dispute and therefore of little value as regards a criminal investigation.

Any practicing lawyer who cares little or nothing for justice, their only goal being to win the case, will crucify the bewildered innocent witness in the box by manipulation. for the want of a better word, of the witness statement before them - to lead them to saying things that could incriminate - twisting words and interpretation of words, thus making the witness appear unreliable.  It's what they do.

You are of course at liberty to think otherwise, I don't wish to interupt your flow but allow me likewise to opine as I see fit - offend or please.

Now if you'll excuse me, I see I've a lot of catching up to do since last night.

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 04.02.17 23:28

@skyrocket wrote:Ah @Verdi, evening (or morning in your case) a predictable response as always!  smilie

I see you've been online since making the above controversial comment.

Perhaps, when you're next passing through, you would be so gracious as to explain exactly what you were implying.  Call me paranoid but your comment indicates some nefarious activity going on behind the scenes which I frankly don't appreciate.

It's probably nothing but it would be helpful if you could reply.  I'm raising the issue on the open forum for the simple reason your comment was made on the open forum, I wouldn't like fellow members to be misled by innuendo or idle gossip.

Thanks howdy .

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by BlueBag on 05.02.17 8:31

@Verdi wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..
Yes you're right - spot on!  Statement analysis is but opinion, or if you prefer, individual interpretation.
I generally agree about statement analysis. It's a bit pseudoscience.

But in this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

That is my opinion of course and compared to the dogs isn't that big a deal.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by skyrocket on 05.02.17 9:40

@Verdi - I'm glad to inform you that paranoia is the worst of it (I'm pretty sure that most on here feel it on occasions, myself included). To put your mind at rest, from the get go when I joined, your posting style stood out, shall we say, and because of that I took a (casual) mental note of your posting times - rightly, or wrongly I had assumed you were not in the western hemisphere. I will refrain from any time specific salutations in future. Apologies if I caused you any concern.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 05.02.17 12:26

@skyrocket

Noted - you've said all I need to know to confirm my suspicions.

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 05.02.17 12:33

@BlueBag wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:verdi ''This just illustrates how unreliable statement analysis can be''

It shows how unreliable YOU think statement analysis can be...
I for one think this would yield very interesting statement analysis..
Yes you're right - spot on!  Statement analysis is but opinion, or if you prefer, individual interpretation.
I generally agree about statement analysis. It's a bit pseudoscience.

But in this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.

That is my opinion of course and compared to the dogs isn't that big a deal.
I quite understand what you're saying - my main point was aimed at David Payne's apparent inability to answer a straightforward question coherently, so the chance of successfully analysing anything he says, hovers around zero.  As I think I said, his rogatory interview from beginning to end is nothing but garbled garbage.  Here's a random example when asked about the groups visit to the millennium restaurant at the start of their holiday..

 "Err, yeah just working out you know where we're gonna eat and sit, sit down there and you know think there wasn't gonna be too many people there right at the beginning err eating in the Millennium, and err you know its like where are the high chairs its all new err get them sit down then you're all having a good chat you know you met up and err certainly you know two hours or maybe longer."

I rest my case big grin .

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by skyrocket on 05.02.17 13:08

@Verdi - there's garbled and there's indecipherable.

I agree that David Payne doesn't come across as particularly eloquent; and he has a tendency to regularly switch tack in the middle of sentences; and he rambles on when a simple short answer would suffice; and he 'errs' an awful lot, but I don't agree that his statement is garbled in the sense that no sense can be made of it. His brain seems to be working overtime (IMO) and I don't believe that he is an accomplished liar, and perhaps he just isn't good at remembering lines.

Compare his answers with his wife's short, largely to the point responses to questions in her Rogatory.

To a trained eye I think that the specific questions that appear to be making Payne more nervous and most garbled would be very telling, as would his answers to those questions.

The Rogatory statements are very, very interesting, again IMO. They alone, you'd think, would have been enough for OG to consider more rigorous questioning of all the tapas 7.

I still hold that what he said i.e. that 'Madeleine was on the bed', needs to be considered as a possible slip up.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by suzyjohnson on 05.02.17 19:10

@BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.


'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by tinkier on 05.02.17 23:35

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.


'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary.  :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase  "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Nina on 06.02.17 0:04

@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.


'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary.  :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase  "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.
And me neither on the wards nor theatre.

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by worriedmum on 06.02.17 0:33

@verdi  do you have to be so pompous?   exalt I'm quite happy to have a different opinion to you, that is the purpose of the forum.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by suzyjohnson on 06.02.17 0:54

@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.


'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary.  :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase  "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.


Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.  

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also. 

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by tinkier on 06.02.17 1:38

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.


'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary.  :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase  "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.


Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.  

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also. 

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'
Ahh ok now I understand, thanks. Some patients do lie on top of the bed with a light cover having a nap or because they're too hot…but it's not a normal figure of speech that any Dr would use imo.
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Nina on 06.02.17 11:22

@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:
In this case I think "on the bed" is a strange phrase to use.

"in the bed" I would get. 

"On the bed" is not a phrase I would expect to be used in a "that was/is Madeleine's bed" context.


'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary.  :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase  "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.


Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.  

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also. 

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'
Ahh ok now I understand, thanks. Some patients do lie on top of the bed with a light cover having a nap or because they're too hot…but it's not a normal figure of speech that any Dr would use imo.
Re the trolley, in or on. There is a special trolley used to take the deceased from the ward which in my experience was known as the 'angel cart' It was made to look like an empty trolley as it had a sheet and pillow over it as though being taken to a ward to pick up a patient, however under the sheet there was a metal box in which the deceased was being transported to the mortuary. As usual pushed by a porter and accompanied by a nurse.
Last week I visited  my GP and she said hop on the couch.

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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by tinkier on 06.02.17 11:47

@Nina wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@tinkier wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:

'On the bed' is unusual but I have heard that phrase before somewhere, in a different dialect and I can't think where. Irish possibly? 

I wonder if 'on the bed' could be a phrase particularly used in hospitals, where you could be 'on a trolley' as opposed to in one?
Not sure I understand what you mean?…usually in a hospital a patient IN a trolley is normally dead being wheeled to the mortuary.  :baffled:While on the subject of hospitals, it's always annoyed me that the McCann's tried to fob off a phrase  "we've let her down" to being used in a hospital environment…..having worked in wards as well as A&E all my adult life, I have never once heard that phrase being used in the way they tried to infer, never. Just another concocted fairy story to try and cover up what they actually said at the time.


Oh, no, I didn't know that, I have never heard of the expression 'in a trolley'

I don't have any experience in a hospital. What I meant was simply that it is common to say that a patient was 'on a trolley' and I wondered whether it might be usual / practical / convenient within the hospital to describe a patient as being 'on a/the/ that bed' as opposed to 'in a /the/that bed'

I thought, with DP being a medic, he might be used to saying 'on' rather than 'in' the bed.  

It's interchangeable to ask 'which ward is the patient on?' 'which ward is the patient in?' also. 

But regarding a hotel someone would say 'which room are they in?' never 'which room are they on?'
Ahh ok now I understand, thanks. Some patients do lie on top of the bed with a light cover having a nap or because they're too hot…but it's not a normal figure of speech that any Dr would use imo.
Re the trolley, in or on. There is a special trolley used to take the deceased from the ward which in my experience was known as the 'angel cart' It was made to look like an empty trolley as it had a sheet and pillow over it as though being taken to a ward to pick up a patient, however under the sheet there was a metal box in which the deceased was being transported to the mortuary. As usual pushed by a porter and accompanied by a nurse.
Last week I visited  my GP and she said hop on the couch.
@Nina..thats exactly the trolley I was referring to. We just call it the mortuary trolley, but must say I prefer "angle cart" sounds so much better.  thumbsup
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Re: When the Alarm was Raised David, What Did You See?

Post by Verdi on 06.02.17 11:56

@worriedmum wrote:@verdi  do you have to be so pompous? 
Is this a general observation or does it relate to a specific post?

Whatever, it's an interesting adjective you choose.  The same thing was said of me over yonder by a member of the fringe group.  That was some time back on the open forum - I dread to think what they say about me behind closed doors.

Pity they don't spend more time concentrating on the complete mystery of Madeleine McCann, rather than tittle tattling about specific individuals or groups.  Ideally I would like to think we are all here with the same objective - although I do sometimes wonder if that be true.  Fortunately I don't care much about their opinion of my persona but I do not appreciate an invasion of my privacy.  The irony is, if you reveal something personal you are a liar, if you don't they invent things amongst themselves and then propagate their inventions as fact - can't win.

Not much different to the intricacies of the case before us - Madeleine McCann.

Still, onwards and upwards.

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