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The House on the Black Rock

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by sandancer on 02.01.17 14:32

" Lies do not become true just because you repeat them over and over " 
Now where have I heard that before ? 
Hope you're feeling better Tony .

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Rocha Negra

Post by willowthewisp on 02.01.17 14:39

Hi GGG,Verdi,are people trying to come to a similar conclusion aka Ben Needham,evidence of a body carried away by Mechanical devices."Demolition,Rubble"never to be found?

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 02.01.17 14:54

@Tony Bennett wrote:Quote from: Danie Krugel, as cited in UK Observer: "Krugel, of the University of Bloemfontein, claims that his technique is able to locate a missing person anywhere in the world using only a single strand of hair.

That's better than the dogs then who can only sniff a single drop of blood in two olympic sized swimming pools.

http://news.sky.com/story/trial-to-see-if-dogs-can-detect-prostate-cancer-in-humans-10712774

No wonder Gerry said the dogs were incredibly unreliable.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 15:28

Not only that but it can detect by flying across continents, swimming the oceans and seas, transmitting/receiving over a notional distance of 7,600 miles.  Apparently Krugel detected the precise location by a single hair (collected from Rothley by a source close to the McCanns) from his base in South Africa - before travelling to Portugal.  Impressive stuff - I want one!

Wonder if he has discussed this case with Birch by telepathy?

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 02.01.17 15:31

@Verdi wrote:Not only that but it can detect by flying across continents, swimming the oceans and seas, transmitting/receiving over a notional distance of 7,600 miles.  Apparently Krugel detected the precise location by a single hair (collected from Rothley by a source close to the McCanns) from his base in South Africa - before travelling to Portugal.  Impressive stuff - I want one!

Wonder if he has discussed this case with Birch by telepathy?

And yet still didn't find Madeleine.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 15:39

@sandancer wrote:It's always puzzled me why when 
Kate and Gerry continue to insist Madeleine hs come to no harm , no evidence she is dead  alive and findable etc they would go on to bring a "conman " wth a "ludicrous " machine into the "search . The search is this case being for body ! 
You can't have it both ways !
This is so true and there are plenty more examples, starting in May 2007, where they directly or indirectly confirm the possibility of death - and I'm not talking statement analysis.

Remember the search in a lake on the tip-off from some clairvoyant and Kate McCann's interest in mediums?  That's without her mention of Madeleines fear and pain !!!

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 15:50

Black (negra) is the new 'pink' - ask Clarrie, he knows he was there..

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 03.01.17 7:38

Ben has made a new post on his blog to address corrections and feedback:

https://h42a.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/re-the-house-on-the-black-rock-corrections-and-feedback/
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Pyrite on 03.01.17 9:13

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Ben has made a new post on his blog to address corrections and feedback:

https://h42a.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/re-the-house-on-the-black-rock-corrections-and-feedback/

Isn't it amazing what you can get when you take the time to talk to people......

"As to whom I spoke to, I believe in confidentiality, I am awaiting permission to name the person in question. If I threw out names not I would swiftly lose the trust of those talking to me. My efforts are to reaching the truth, and one day getting Madeleine the proper burial she deserves. Sacrificing this for forum politics would be ludicrous. So I await the ok from said person.


I have now been given permission to mention the name. It is Susan Puren who I was talking to and who provided the information here."


And I couldn't agree more with Ben here...



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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 03.01.17 9:47

I still don't know what the theory is.

I see lots of words.

Can I request the theory in a nutshell please for thick people like me who like it simple.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 03.01.17 9:58

Wasn't the towel/blanket found in Odiaxere anyway?

It is described in the PJ files as pink on one side and orangy brown on the other.



As this could be described.

I would like to know the provenance of the above photo.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 03.01.17 12:11

This doesn't strike me as a great place to secretly bury someone and have a family "goodbye".




In fact it's highly visible from quite a lot of Praia Da Luz.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 03.01.17 13:01

I stand by my original comments about this piece of research, the update alters nothing, although I must say I'm surprised it wasn't posted on CMoMM by April24th as it largely concerns comments from here.   Leaving aside the profusion of praise bestowed on those who agree wholeheartedly with the bloggers research theory, it is but a reiteration of the original piece of work - here I will add a reminder of the introduction..

It’s a title that seems made for a movie. Yet, I have found myself increasingly of the belief that one small property sat atop the Rocha Negra may have initially been used to occult the cadaver of Madeleine McCann.

Why, and how?

This discovery started when I was recounting a couple of well known events in the McCann case: the arrival of Danie Krugel, and Kate McCann’s dream of seeing Madeleine’s body lying on a hill. Both of these things would appear to be related, in a way I was not expecting to find.

For the sake of this article, I will not pass comment on Danie Krugel’s device, or credibility – as I believe he was potentially brought in as either a distraction, or as one who would ‘find’ something at an opportune time. I will go into this further on.

Kate McCann’s ‘dream’ was referred to as a turning point in the case.

“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there…She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”

 – Ricardo Paiva

----------

A lengthy saga built on shifting sands - in more ways than one.  A claim about a dream that has never been confirmed and a South African conman with an untested body detecting machine otherwise known as an industrial sludge gulper and the later addition of an alleged South African investigative journalist with a touch of the mystic.  Does anyone really believe the likes of the Rupert Murdoch empire or any other of a similar ilk?  It'll need a lot more than that to convince me there is any merit in this extensive piece of research.  Bah!   

I repeat - there is a mischievous media manipulator behind this Krugel nonsense.  It was a carefully engineered distraction - and it worked and still appears to be working!

NB:  I don't remember anyone on this forum suggesting that April28th has invented the phone records - perhaps it was said somewhere else.  I made a comment questioning how the person can know who was actually speaking on the telephone but I think that was all.  As I said before, just one inaccuracy presented devalues the whole effort.

Still, keep living the dream!

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 03.01.17 15:51

@Tony Bennett wrote:

http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/youmagazine.html

Since then the case [of six missing girls] has popped up in the news from time to time but has remained unsolved. Then at the end of July, Carte Blanche had viewers glued to their TV sets with a gripping programme in which Bloemfon­tein inventor Danie Krugel and Joburg clairvoyant Marietta Theunissen joined forces with Carte Blanche producer Susan Puren to find answers.

Danie and Marietta believe they've tracked the girls' remains to a deserted area within six city blocks of Van Rooyen's house. Danie says he used hair samples from some of the girls and one of his inventions to find the remains. Marietta says she has communicated with the girls in the spirit world. Archaeologists from the University of Pretoria, working in the area Danie and Marietta pointed out, excavated bones which they sent for DNA testing. Carte Blanche has now asked the police to continue investigations in the hope they'll do further excavatations in the large area the team couldn't cover in a week.

A bit more on South Africa's Carte Blanche magazine show.  Of course I can't vouch for the content of this 'Smoke and Mirrors' blog but if there is any truth therein, it's starting to look as ts though Carte Blanche producer cum investigative journalist, is a disciple of Danie Krugel.

This is one of the comments..

7th August 2007 @ 10:28 am

Two interesting quotes from recent stories:


The first from YOU Magazine: (Well, can’t find the magazine now,) Basicaly Susan Puren (the show’s producer said that when they delivered the first girl’s hair to Danie he told them he could not do the reading then so they left. He then called them a week later with the location he had determined.

This would have left him more then enough time to set up a ploy and get his story straight and PC loaded with necessary plots and whatever else he needed. This is obviously no proof of foul-play, but it does provide ample ‘opportunity’

Then from the Sunday Cape Argus (taken from IOL; search for key-word krugel, the sotry is called: ‘Crime-solving’ gadget on the way).

No one has yet examined the device. Puren’s understanding is that “what must be” a computer of some kind occasionally jerks to life and shakes briefly when it makes contact, which is why he must be alone when working with it.

“he must be alone when working with it”

Apart from Danie not be willing to divulge how the machine works. no-one can even observe him using it… The reason given is that it shakes briefly when it makes contact. Does it not shake when there are two people in the room???

And now he is remoured to be selling the rights suddenly for ‘only’ R13 million, which seems way to cheap for such a device if it can indded do what he claims. Or could he be cashing in before being exposed? Or even trying to find a reason for not responding to upcoming claims for verification, as it will then be no longer his intellectual property?

https://moonflake.wordpress.com/2007/07/30/pseudoscientists-psychics-and-pop-psychologists-danie-krugel-resurfaces-on-carte-blanche/

All sounds a bit 'iffy to me.

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 03.01.17 18:20

I believe April28th thinks Krugel is nonsense as well so we should forget anything (in this thread) to do with Krugel, Dutch Newspapers and Susan Puren - it's part of the carnival.

I think his theory is that the McCanns pulled him in so that someone could point at something on the hill.

Doesn't work in my opinion - it's built on long long links of "what ifs".
 
Way too complicated and risky.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by plebgate on 03.01.17 18:44

Unless this journalist Susan Puren is prepared to go on camera with April28th and  posted on youtube so the link can be posted here, I aint really interested in hearing what she has to say through an anonymous forum poster.

Visual evidence please of any such discussions.

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 03.01.17 18:49

Oh... and I absolutely think the family "goodbye" on the hill (visible to a large part of PDL - see previous post) is plain crazy.

Journalists and Police have binoculars and other cunning instruments of detection.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Tony Bennett on 03.01.17 23:58

@BlueBag wrote:I think [Ben Salmon/April28th]s theory is that the McCanns pulled him [Danie Kruger] in so that someone could point at something on the hill.

Doesn't work in my opinion - it's built on long long links of "what ifs".
 
Way too complicated and risky.
@  BenSalmon/April 28th

First things first, credit where credit is due, you have answered the questions people put to you here, and that is welcome and has certainly cleared up a few things. So thank you for that.

The next thing to say is that once again I find myself in complete agreement with BlueBag and his reasons for rejecting your theory. Indeed, others have added their reasons, including ShininginLuz, who pointed out that the hill is prime walking territory for big dogs, and so the last place anyone would temporarily hide a dead body, with all those sniffing dogs around the place. BlueBag's excellent two pictures also illustrated how clear the view of the hill was from a car park.

I saw that I was not the only one who understood that the body might have been destroyed or moved when the farm building had been bulldozed. So thank you for that clarification.

I also see more clearly now that you believe that the McCanns and their friends may have  planted evidence in at least two places (the McCanns on the hill and Russell where the towel was found etc.).

All of this leads me to respectfully suggest that if you are going to come up with a complex theory with lots of maps and diagrams and charts etc., you should do what other researchers do - publish a very short 'Executive Summary' at the start. It would have saved a lot of your readers here a lot of bother.

I guess if you had written one, it would have run something like this:

"I think Madeleine's body was hidden for a while in a disused barn on the Black Rock hill. I also think that the McCanns and their friends had planted at least two items in different locations which they wanted the police to find. One of them was on the hill,which is why Kate McCann invented a dream about a hill. I think Kate was prompted to make a call to Ricardo Paiva about this dream because she got wind that a Mr Krugel was coming along with his instrument. The disused barn was demolished on a date in June but I think the body was removed before then".

If that is not a fair summary in 7 lines it would be very helpful if you could amend mine as required or give u your own version - thanks.

OTHER POINTS FROM YOUR POSTS

You said you found 'nothing incriminating' about Robert Murat. On the assumption that something bad happened to Madeleine on say 29 or 30 April, there is reasonable evidence from his conduct from 1 May onwards to suggest that it was very suspicious. Clearly you've not read this material yet and I hope you will do so in due course.

I noted the reference to Murat switching on to look at Red Clouds and Voyeur, which he did on the day Madeeine was reported missing and the two days afterwards. When this first came up we were told that Red Clouds was a porn site with a lot of 'hard core' porn on it; moreover the police found encrypted material on it which Murat claimed, unconvingly, he 'couldn't explain'. This tied in with a female witness in the case who specifically alleged that he had child sexual abuse images on his computer (a criminal offence) and of course with all that family friend Carlos Costa told the police about his colourful adolescent sexual history.   

Thank you for the information that the 'private' information you told us about came about from Danie Krugel and then via Susan Purem. Do you have a valid reason for relying on anything that Krugel tells anyone?

Finally, it's strange, I can't recall it happening before, that a member here runs a Madeleine-related blog, but then doesn't post a link to a relevant article for fellow-members to see - leaving it, in this case, for the forum-owner to pick it up from Facebook.  

I think, as I said in my original response, if the body was already safely stored in a freezer somewhere around Praia da Luz, what on earth would be the point of dragging it out by car for a temporary period to a barn where it could decompose, could be sniffed out by dogs roaming all over the hills, and which was in plain sight on view to many parts of the village.    

dontgetit

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by April28th on 04.01.17 1:28

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@BlueBag wrote:I think [Ben Salmon/April28th]s theory is that the McCanns pulled him [Danie Kruger] in so that someone could point at something on the hill.

Doesn't work in my opinion - it's built on long long links of "what ifs".
 
Way too complicated and risky.
@  BenSalmon/April 28th

First things first, credit where credit is due, you have answered the questions people put to you here, and that is welcome and has certainly cleared up a few things. So thank you for that.

The next thing to say is that once again I find myself in complete agreement with BlueBag and his reasons for rejecting your theory. Indeed, others have added their reasons, including ShininginLuz, who pointed out that the hill is prime walking territory for big dogs, and so the last place anyone would temporarily hide a dead body, with all those sniffing dogs around the place. BlueBag's excellent two pictures also illustrated how clear the view of the hill was from a car park.

I saw that I was not the only one who understood that the body might have been destroyed or moved when the farm building had been bulldozed. So thank you for that clarification.

I also see more clearly now that you believe that the McCanns and their friends may have  planted evidence in at least two places (the McCanns on the hill and Russell where the towel was found etc.).

All of this leads me to respectfully suggest that if you are going to come up with a complex theory with lots of maps and diagrams and charts etc., you should do what other researchers do - publish a very short 'Executive Summary' at the start. It would have saved a lot of your readers here a lot of bother.

I guess if you had written one, it would have run something like this:

"I think Madeleine's body was hidden for a while in a disused barn on the Black Rock hill. I also think that the McCanns and their friends had planted at least two items in different locations which they wanted the police to find. One of them was on the hill,which is why Kate McCann invented a dream about a hill. I think Kate was prompted to make a call to Ricardo Paiva about this dream because she got wind that a Mr Krugel was coming along with his instrument. The disused barn was demolished on a date in June but I think the body was removed before then".

If that is not a fair summary in 7 lines it would be very helpful if you could amend mine as required or give u your own version - thanks.

OTHER POINTS FROM YOUR POSTS

You said you found 'nothing incriminating' about Robert Murat. On the assumption that something bad happened to Madeleine on say 29 or 30 April, there is reasonable evidence from his conduct from 1 May onwards to suggest that it was very suspicious. Clearly you've not read this material yet and I hope you will do so in due course.

I noted the reference to Murat switching on to look at Red Clouds and Voyeur, which he did on the day Madeeine was reported missing and the two days afterwards. When this first came up we were told that Red Clouds was a porn site with a lot of 'hard core' porn on it; moreover the police found encrypted material on it which Murat claimed, unconvingly, he 'couldn't explain'. This tied in with a female witness in the case who specifically alleged that he had child sexual abuse images on his computer (a criminal offence) and of course with all that family friend Carlos Costa told the police about his colourful adolescent sexual history.   

Thank you for the information that the 'private' information you told us about came about from Danie Krugel and then via Susan Purem. Do you have a valid reason for relying on anything that Krugel tells anyone?

Finally, it's strange, I can't recall it happening before, that a member here runs a Madeleine-related blog, but then doesn't post a link to a relevant article for fellow-members to see - leaving it, in this case, for the forum-owner to pick it up from Facebook.  

I think, as I said in my original response, if the body was already safely stored in a freezer somewhere around Praia da Luz, what on earth would be the point of dragging it out by car for a temporary period to a barn where it could decompose, could be sniffed out by dogs roaming all over the hills, and which was in plain sight on view to many parts of the village.    

dontgetit

Thank you Tony - thank you for being respectful, I will respond in kind. I was reticent to post here as I was inundated with places sharing the post (which I did not anticipate). I wonder if you would be willing to corroborate what I said about us emailing eachother, my sharing research with you etc. It looks like an empty invention otherwise. I would rather we talk with honesty than have to resort to screenshots (you have not denied the conversations, but nor have you mentioned them).

First, let me be clear this is a theory, it's not to be taken as 'what Ben believes'. it is a possibility which I floated to see what kind of feedback it would get, + or -.

I admit I took down my 'why I changed my mind' video. The reason was that I presently do not believe some of the things mentioned therein. You are personally privy to my belief that Madeleine's death occurred on May 3rd - an opinion which I know goes against the status quo here, but exists nonetheless, and I would point out that I have in the past shared my thoughts with Lizzy Taylor (the progenitor of the earlier incident theory) and she has zero problem with my stance.

Re the suitablity of the area. I would point out again the obvious cavity after demolition. Dogs may certainly show an interest in a unique item like a dead body. But this piece suggests (ie does not state as fact) that the body was underground and covered.

So far as I am aware (and I am not familiar with the website so I accept I could be wrong), Redclouds is just a normal surface web site? It is important to note that Murat has already used CCleaner before accessing it, he's not hiding it at all (in fact he uses it afterwards). In other words, if there was some bad material there, it'd be removed by CCleaner, and Murat would know this. So he would easily remove anything he needed to. You could put forward the argument that Murat looked at bad material before using CCleaner, and the 'normal' material is just a front. but such a proposition is impossible to quantify.

BlueBag showed images of the 'toilet seat' villa as it is today, not Eagles Eye. Aside from my musing about the square structure, I never suggested this property is relevant.

I fully accept the criticism from ShiningInLuz. I think it was a  fantastic point that dogs were roaming here. Something I would never know without a contemporary source. It wasn't a barn though. Let me be precise;

Barn = Arao/De Telegraaf search, June 13th
'Pink Baby's Blanket' (Susan Puren's description - personally I can't tell what I am looking at or perspective) found by Danie Krugel on Rocha Negra, before July 21st 2007.

On to your questions/arguments;

I have not relied on anything said by Krugel, in fact I have never spoken to him. He was in the 'did not respond' category. I want to repeat again, the reliability of his science is not the issue here. BlueBag above finally grasped most of the post.  I related him and my diagrams based on his searches because they happened to be the 'jumping off point' . Susan is very personable and I know she has replied to J here.

I apologise if my piece was not clear enough. I will be working on a piece on Russell O'Brien in the coming days. The theory involves evidence being planted in different areas. There is good reason to believe Russell dropped off evidence on May 7th. Matthew Oldfield also took a solo trip East of Luz in the morning of the same dat (May 7th), though his ping is much briefer than Russell's.

As to why I didn't post here initially - the post was produced by myself, for the group 'Abduction or Scam?' at 22:31. Lizzy asked if she could share it in her group and I said yes. I then went to bed. Lizzy had told me she may post it here. The next day I found Jill had already posted it. There was never any implicit avoidance of this forum, and as Jill mentioned, she posted the blog here and on her blog without saying a word to me (I don't mind by the way - just being clear). I never expected it to spread as it did.

Re the bulldozer error - no problem. It happens - and my respect is restored in seeing your humility.

I will think about an 'Executive summary' as you termed it. The only reason I have never made a complete thesis is that my opinion is fluid - no matter how long I spend on the case I seem to find something new each day., so while I am 100% sure that she was not alive past May 3rd, the other details change frequently on the basis of new things I find out.
Respectfully, I reject the notion that I haven't researched Robert Murat. I have. And as mentioned I think he has a lot to answer for. But I can't tie any of it directly with the McCanns. That's my sticking point.    

I have no idea if there was any power inside the abandoned building (not a barn - clearly a building).

May I say - I understand the suspicion given my previous position. But if certain people are going to use any issue involving myself as an excuse to label me then as far as those people go I am wasting my time logging in here. now, I adore this forum. I have learnt so much here. But if I am going to be Judas Iscariot anytime I have an opinion that goes against the grain, then I am better off not posting here. Again, I will go with Tony's judgement on this issue. Please advise me.                    

I *think* I hit all your points - if I missed anything please send it again here.. The only reason for moving the body would be the demolition itself. As I said (and you acknowledged) the body being left to diggers is a ludicrous suggestion.

Please remember - this is a THEORY. I'm not stating it as factual, I'm looking for feedback to address the likelihood of it being reality (so to speak). I understand after 9 years backbreaking work you are attached to the Murat/proprty angle. I have found many other possibilities in the phone records. And that includes zero calls to the McCanns. Again, I can provide call records for dates if required.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Tony Bennett on 04.01.17 8:48

@April28th wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:Thank you Tony - thank you for being respectful, I will respond in kind.
Thank you Ben for your long reply.

I have to go to hospital today but when I return I will reply to your post in a constructive spirit.

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 04.01.17 9:20

Ben, your theory was hard to follow - you really didn't need the pictures about the toilet seat with "redevelopment" written on the picture at all. It just confused the issue.

Less is more in this case.

Eagles Eye is still visible from the car park and much of Praia Da Luz behind.



If you also look at the aerial view it is surrounded by well worn paths - even back in 2007

It's not a very secluded spot. 

It's right next to a golf hole and a teeing area to boot.
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 04.01.17 9:56

I'm pretty sure this is Eagle's Eye.

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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by April28th on 04.01.17 10:18

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@April28th wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:Thank you Tony - thank you for being respectful, I will respond in kind.
Thank you Ben for your long reply.

I have to go to hospital today but when I return I will reply to your post in a constructive spirit.

No problem - I hope you're well and not going for anything serious.

@BlueBag wrote:Ben, your theory was hard to follow - you really didn't need the pictures about the toilet seat with "redevelopment" written on the picture at all. It just confused the issue.

Less is more in this case.

Eagles Eye is still visible from the car park and much of Praia Da Luz behind.



If you also look at the aerial view it is surrounded by well worn paths - even back in 2007

It's not a very secluded spot. 

It's right next to a golf hole and a teeing area to boot.

I accept your criticisms. I included the 'toilet seat villa' as part of the narrative. Interestingly enough someone on Facebook shared links to an old article which I had disregarded, about an abandoned villa and people leaving behind recording equipment and toys. The suggestion was that this may be that villa. I had taken no interest in the story because it seemed fabricated. Maybe someone here knows better on that front, I don't have time to look it up today.

The actual building extant before demolition would probably have been visible - you have shown two examples of the present building being visible and that adds weight. But you could say the same for any proposed building (eg if we say she was taken to a house in Burgau, that house would be 'visible').

There are indeed well worn pathways and a route to the road meanders around the property. The golf course is shrouded by vegetation, but the path goes right past. So absolutely it's fair to say it's 'in plain sight'.

It would be useful to have other pictures of it, to assess whether the interior was implicitly accessible, or it was locked up. If locked up then, as I have proposed, it is possible she was stored inside, perhaps beneath the building in whatever was in the 'cavity'. With perspective it is hard to tell how deep the cavity is, it could be a matter of one or two feet, or deeper. Or it may just be where foundations stood. The lower end of the building (on the left) would have stood in that area. I don't know why it would need deeper foundations as the land looks level. Then again I'm not a builder!
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Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by April28th on 04.01.17 10:38

By the way, as to the provenance of the blanket/towel photo, it was sent to me by Susan Puren. It is the same blanket which Krugel labelled on his map.





I'm not sure why it says 'Blanket area 1' rather than just 'blanket area'. Susan was insistent that it is a child's blanket. I see the empty can next to it and see the blanket as a bespoke seat. Question there is how and when it first appeared there. There is no record of it in the files so I'm unsure if it was ever collected.
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