The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Hello!

A very warm welcome to The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ forum.

Please log in, or register to view all the forums, then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann. Please note that your username should be different from your email address!

When posting please be mindful that this forum is primarily about the death of a three year old girl.

(Please note: if you register with the sole intention of disrupting or spamming, please don't expect to be a member for too long.)

Many thanks,

Jill Havern
Forum owner

The House on the Black Rock

Page 3 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by worriedmum on 01.01.17 18:09

@sharonl wrote:I am not sure how much credibility attaches to this Black Rock story but back in 2007, the Express reported that the PJ had  traced Gerry McCanns' and Russel O'Briens mobile phones to an old farmhouse\barn where a bloodstained towel was found.  The article was swifty removed from the internet that same day and little more was said about this.  Is this possibly the same building as the one being discussed here?
Is this the 'Aztec' pattern towel story?
avatar
worriedmum

Posts : 1795
Reputation : 395
Join date : 2012-01-17

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by HiDeHo on 01.01.17 18:17

@sharonl wrote:I am not sure how much credibility attaches to this Black Rock story but back in 2007, the Express reported that the PJ had  traced Gerry McCanns' and Russel O'Briens mobile phones to an old farmhouse\barn where a bloodstained towel was found.  The article was swifty removed from the internet that same day and little more was said about this.  Is this possibly the same building as the one being discussed here?

3A had a thread on the barn

http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13603&st=0&sk=t&sd=a








avatar
HiDeHo
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 2591
Reputation : 737
Join date : 2010-05-07

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by worriedmum on 01.01.17 18:23

Thank you HideHo, it is really informative to read this again.
Isn't the important question here, 'what led the police to THIS barn'?
avatar
worriedmum

Posts : 1795
Reputation : 395
Join date : 2012-01-17

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by sharonl on 01.01.17 18:58

@worriedmum wrote:Thank you HideHo, it is really informative to read this again.
Isn't the important question here, 'what led the police to THIS barn'?


Apparently it was some telephone calls between Gerry & Russell


Sunday Express
By Matt Drake in Praia da Luz and James Murray
2 December 2007

THE hunt for Madeleine McCann was last night centred on a disused barn near Praia da Luz, where police found a towel possibly stained with the fouryear-old's blood.

Fibres found on the towel allegedly match fibres from the hire car rented by Maddie's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Portuguese detectives discussed the breakthrough when they met police and a Crown Prosecution Service official last week in Leicester.

Today, for the first time, the Sunday Express can shed light on the new avenue police are pursuing in the hope of a breakthrough in the baffling case.

Based on fresh information from a mobile phone surveillance, police began a search of an area in the south east of the resort.

They came across a towel, with an Aztec design, by a disused barn in a remote area near Praia da Luz.

Portuguese sources say forensic scientists used a substance called luminol to look for blood deposits and found three sites on the edges of the towel.

From the sites they tested the blood deposits to see if there was a match with Madeleine McCann's DNA.

Although the samples were not good quality the scientists were able to do what is called low copy analysis which showed there was "moderate" support to suggest the deposits matched Madeleine's blood.

The results were not conclusive and are not regarded as being strong enough to be presented as evidence in any court case.

But close analysis of the towel revealed fibres which were not made of the towel material.

The fibre fragments were microscopically examined against fibres found in the boot of the Renault Scenic car hired by the McCanns 25 days after Maddie vanished.

Portuguese police sources say there was "strong support" that the fibres found on the towel matched fibres from the boot of the car.

One possibility being considered by the Portuguese detectives was that the towel had at some point been in the boot of the Renault Scenic car, which would explain how fibres had got on it.

Meanwhile, a close friend of Kate and Gerry McCann who was holidaying with them when Madeleine vanished will be questioned by Portuguese police this week over a "mystery' phone call.

Dr Russell O'Brien, 36, has come under investigation after a team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted a mobile call made to the missing four-year-old's father more than a month after she disappeared.

Portuguese detectives are now working on the theory that a call made between Gerry McCann, 39, and Dr O'Brien is the missing link that could help them find Madeleine's body.

Investigators are focussing their inquiry on the exact whereabouts of Dr O'Brien when the call was made on June 10.

Gerry McCann said the call was made within four kilometres of the Mark Warner resort.

But technicians have now dismissed his claim after examining data records taken from specified areas near to where the child went missing.

It is understood key words aroused police suspicions.

____________________
"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron
avatar
sharonl


Posts : 3966
Reputation : 664
Join date : 2009-12-29

http://www.cold2012.org.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by worriedmum on 01.01.17 19:57

Wow! And yet they were looking for tractorman, the soothing couple, etc etc-what on dontgetit earth is going on?
avatar
worriedmum

Posts : 1795
Reputation : 395
Join date : 2012-01-17

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Tony Bennett on 01.01.17 20:15

@sharonl wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:Thank you HideHo, it is really informative to read this again.
Isn't the important question here, 'what led the police to THIS barn'?

Apparently it was some telephone calls between Gerry & Russell


Sunday Express
By Matt Drake in Praia da Luz and James Murray
2 December 2007

THE hunt for Madeleine McCann was last night centred on a disused barn near Praia da Luz, where police found a towel possibly stained with the fouryear-old's blood...

[SNIPPED]

I confess that I am still struggling very much to see what the information posted by @ April28th is really all about.

There is a collection of statements, news cuttings, assorted photos and other material.

April28th fails to provide a coherent, indeed any hypothesis of what we are supposed to get out of all the information, except he suggests that maybe Madeleine's body was hidden in that derelict building before it was apparently demolished some time between 25 May and 22 June (when a photo shows that the derelict building had been demolished). 

I also can't see the relevance of the Aztec towel being found near a 'disused barn'. Didn't that happen some time later? If yes, how can it be the same barn that was demolished by 22 June?

Maybe I am missing something?

I also spotted this in April28th's post:

QUOTE:

"While press reports had it that Krugel had ‘pinpointed an area on the beach’ or ‘believed Maddie was at sea’ confused things, I was told privately that neither of these were in fact true".

UNQUOTE.

Told 'privately'? By whom? By Krugel? By the McCanns? By a member of the McCann Team? I think we need an answer, April28th.

This is rather more urgent given what I am told is your previous long-term backing of the McCanns on the internet. You also became friendly with Robert and Ainee Naylor and acted for them (successfully) in trying to get allegations that they provided their daughter Elizabeth as a Madeleine substitute (as per kikoratan's theory].

When you joined here, you gave us a link to an internet YouTube videoe of yourself in which you appeared to say that you were now taking a very different line on Madeleine and were now willing to accept that she might not have been abducted. I watched it. It was quite convincing. But is it still there? Last time I looked, I couldn't find it. My apologies if it is still there

At the end of the day, what your long post seems to suggest - and I apologise if I have misunderstood anything at all - is that members of the McCann Team took Madeleine's body to a remote barn, which was demolished soon afterwards.

Is that correct?

In that case, it is up there with all the other theories:

1 Dumped at sea
2 Buried somewhere
3 Buried on the beach (Amaral theory No 1)
4 Buried in the churchyards (Amaral theory No2)
5 Buried with an old widow in a coffin (Amaral theory No. 3)
6 Cremated - maybe in a pet cemetery.

These are the apparent facts we have:

1. Cadaver dog evidence of a corpse in G5A
2. Cadaver dog evidence of a corpse in the Renault Scenic, suggesting that the body may have been frozen before being put in the car 
3. A car - the Scenic - which had a seriously unplerasant and lingering smell - so much so that Michael Wright commenedt on it in his statement and also a neighbou noted that the boot of the car was left open all night, night after night.

Most members here have interpreted this as follows:

A. Body placed in a freezer as soon as praticable
B. When the coast was clear, body transported in the Secnic (by whoever) to a presumed final resting place.

I cannot see how your suggestion fits in to this. Are you saying that the body was hidden as a temporary resting place right atop the Rocha Negra, in plain sight as it were?

And then what do you say might have happened to her body when the barn was demolished? Are you saying her body must have been removed by the demolition team?

Please provide answers as soon as you can. At issue is your credibility.

Again I offer my most humble apologies if I have misunderstood you at any point.

____________________

 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

avatar
Tony Bennett

Posts : 14655
Reputation : 2791
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by sharonl on 01.01.17 23:18

It seems that the alleged phone call took place around June 10th

Sunday Express
Sunday 02 December 2007

A close friend of Kate and Gerry McCann who was holidaying with them when Madeleine vanished will be questioned by Portuguese police this week over a "mystery" phone call.

Dr Russell O'Brien, 36, has come under investigation after a team of telephone surveillance officers highlighted a mobile phone call made to the missing four-year-old's father just over a month after she disappeared.

Portuguese detectives now believe that a phone call between Gerry McCann, 39, and Dr O'Brien is the missing link in Madeleine's disappearance and could help find her body.

Investigators are focusing on the exact whereabouts of Dr O'Brien when the call was made on June 10.

Last night it was unclear exactly what was said during the debated call but it is understood that key words aroused police suspicions.

The development is a massive blow to the McCanns who had been led to believe they would be cleared of any involvement in their daughter's alleged death by Christmas.

A team of senior detectives are to fly to Britain after gaining official permission to re-interview certain members of the group, including Dr O'Brien. He has taken advice from a lawyer recommended by the McCann legal team.

The Sunday Express has learned Mr McCann told police the call, 38 days after Madeleine vanished, was made within 4km of the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz where the party were staying but technicians working on the mobile phone network have dismissed his claim after examining records.

It has also emerged that each member of the "Tapas Nine" was placed under surveillance after Brisitish communications experts arrived in the Algarve at the end of May.

A close friend of the group told how just weeks after Madeleine went missing, her parents and their friends had grown concerned they were being closely watched by Portuguese police.

He said: "Although they never officially thought they were under surveillance - Kate and Gerry were always cautious when making calls because they knew it was possible that somebody could be listening in.

"They were concerned that their phones could have been tapped or that the electronic traffic between them and their friends was being recorded"

Kate and Gerry, both 39, were named as "arguidos", formal suspects, in their daughter's disappearance on September 9.

They have not been charged but police let it be known they had evidence to indicate that Madeleine accidentally died in apartment 5A and her body was hidden for weeks before being moved in the boot of a Renault Scenic the family hired 25 days later.

British experts attempted to trace the movements of Madeleine's abductor by following a trail left by mobile telephone signals. The technique helped convict Ian Huntley for the murders of Holly wells and Jessica Chapman in Soham, Cambridgeshire, in 2002.

Trails are created by silent transmissions sent by mobile phones even when not in use. These create a timed computer log of the handset's movement which can narrow down its location to an area as small as a few square yards.

Police analysts examining records of mobile phones belonging to the McCanns and their holiday group returned their findings to Portuguese prosecutors last week.

Detectives used the detailed information to "test" statements by guests and staff at the Ocean Club complex.

Last week, Portuguese officers arrived in Britain to talk to Leicestershire Police and British forensic experts about the implications of DNA results from tests at the Forensic Science Service's base in Birmingham.

Friends of the McCanns thought the summit indicated Madeleine's parents would be cleared as suspects after DNA evidence against them appeared to collapse, but last night it was clear there are still doubts about contradictions in the statements the group gave to police. Both Kate and Gerry McCann deny any involvement with Madeleine's disappearance but police still maintain the case against them does not rely on DNA results.

Dr O'Brien could also be named as an arguido. Last night a friend said: "If he faces a situation where the arguido status becomes an issue, it allows certain rights, like the right to have a lawyer present and the right to remain silent."

____________________
"WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER" - Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron
avatar
sharonl


Posts : 3966
Reputation : 664
Join date : 2009-12-29

http://www.cold2012.org.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 01.01.17 23:19

What a pity this amazing 'piece of research' can't be confirmed by the PJ files - how much credence that would add.

Given the claimed emphasis placed on Rocha Negra (by the way, that means Black Rock in Ingleesh), by important figures such as Mark Harrison and (cough!) Kruger, I'm frankly astonished that the location wasn't prioritized by the official Portuguese investigative team complete with dogs and radar equipment.  If the area of Rocha Negra was included in the extensive search conducted by the PJ, which I believe it was, how strange they didn't focus on bloody Aztec (?) towels, derelict/demolished barns and whatever else.  Clearly they didn't find anything of interest or it would be documented in the  PJ files rather than the UK press.

Maybe they were the bungling cops so rudely claimed by the UK tabloids - or maybe this 'research' is just a load of demolition rubble.  There are some very strange characters that roam cyberspace spreading their idle gossip about the case of Madeleine McCann - time to sort the wheat from the chaff.  Too much unecessary distraction which leads nowhere. 

Dish the dirt and let's get on with what really matters - the truth about the mystery of Madeleine McCann.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 01.01.17 23:38

I forgot to include this when posting earlier.  The 'research' claims, I quote..

10th June - Morocco trip.  Flying by private plane (Phillip Green)


This is Kate McCann's version of the flight to Morocco from her book Madeleine..

We were lucky we managed to get on a plane to Rabat at all. I use the word ‘lucky’ losely.  The jet had broken down and a pre-war propeller plane was drafted to help out. It was too small to carry all the passengers and had to make a return trip to get everyone to Morocco. Flying was hard enough for me now as it was, and this was scary.

The plane, a bare metal tube, was basic. It had about twenty seats and no separate cockpit, no overhead lockers or storage racks, no in-flight service (thank goodness I’d had that butty in the airport), no life jackets. I’m probably sounding a bit precious now, but of course it wasn’t the absence of small comforts that bothered me, it was the fact that I really didn’t feel safe.

Still, it must be said that my imagination was in overdrive to start with, and I allowed it to run away with me to the point where I was terrified we were going to die on our way to Rabat and leave all of our children orphaned. It’s hard to stay level-headed when you’ve forgotten what it feels like to be at peace.
----------

Where was Phillip Green I ask myself - piloting the aircraft or navigating..

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Pyrite on 02.01.17 2:28

Lots has been said since my last visit here and there's lots I could say also....

All I will say for now is, @Tony Bennett get well soon!

Can I just ask once more...has anyone spoke to/attempted to speak to Susan Puren? 

This is an investigative journalist and my last encounter with such an individual (mostly they are a special bread) was extremely useful. 

I only ask because if no one has, then fortuitously I have the opportunity to do so. 

Maybe it's worth getting her take on this whole thing....unless I'm wasting my time??

avatar
Pyrite

Posts : 32
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-01-27

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.01.17 10:17

@Pyrite wrote:Can I just ask once more...has anyone spoke to/attempted to speak to Susan Puren? 

This is an investigative journalist and my last encounter with such an individual (mostly they are a special bread) was extremely useful. 

I only ask because if no one has, then fortuitously I have the opportunity to do so. 

Maybe it's worth getting her take on this whole thing...unless I'm wasting my time??
I've never heard the name. Is she the South African journalist?

We've given up trying to interest journalists, as it is just a fact of life that the mainstream media here will only print and support the McCann narrative. They are frightened to death of our libel laws, which have helped to suppress the truth in so many other cases - Jimmy Savile, Lance Armstrong, Gordon Anglesea, Jonathan Aitken, Lord Archer etc. etc.  

Some us do send items of interest to journalists, PeterMac does it all the time, but he rarely gets even an acknowledgement. In short, it has become a true modern heresy to question any part of the McCann narrative.

Possibly if Ms Puren is writing for a foreign news agency, she might be able to develop some points.

Just once in a while, the alternative view does get an airing. Look how the Fox News interviewer struggled when former U.S. prosecutor and now child care expert Wendy Murphy came up with an unexpected view on Scotland Yard's 'Smithman':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf4wVANuNRY

By all means try to interest Ms Puren, we have loads of material on here that would make many good stories, not just one. But don't be too surprised if she comes back with: 'My editor won't allow me to go there'

____________________

 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

avatar
Tony Bennett

Posts : 14655
Reputation : 2791
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Pyrite on 02.01.17 10:54

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Let’s turn momentarily to Danie Krugel. Contact with Krugel is initiated on June 9th, when at 21:48 Gerry calls him for 12 minutes 38 seconds. According to the records in the PJ Files, he had been recommended via email (also from South Africa). It will be over a month before Krugel arrives in Portugal. During this time – and just after he leaves – there are a smattering of contacts between Gerry, Krugel and Susan Puren (an South African investigative journalist). It is later said that whilst in Portugal, the McCanns effectively ignored Krugel, and when they finally met – before Krugel and Puren left – it was a very abrupt meeting in which the South Africans were ‘made to feel like they were meeting Royals’.

@Tony Bennett - I'm not bothered about trying to get Susan interested in the case or trying to get anything published....I just wonder what her side of the above is. The PJ confirms the calls to Krugel, not sure where the evidence for a "smattering of contacts between Gerry, Krugel and Susan Puren" is (in the PJ also?)....but it would be interesting to hear her side of things.

I'll ask and see what she says.
avatar
Pyrite

Posts : 32
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-01-27

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.01.17 12:00

@Pyrite wrote:
@Get'emGonçalo wrote:Let’s turn momentarily to Danie Krugel. Contact with Krugel is initiated on June 9th, when at 21:48 Gerry calls him for 12 minutes 38 seconds. According to the records in the PJ Files, he had been recommended via email (also from South Africa). It will be over a month before Krugel arrives in Portugal. During this time – and just after he leaves – there are a smattering of contacts between Gerry, Krugel and Susan Puren (an South African investigative journalist). It is later said that whilst in Portugal, the McCanns effectively ignored Krugel, and when they finally met – before Krugel and Puren left – it was a very abrupt meeting in which the South Africans were ‘made to feel like they were meeting Royals’.

@Tony Bennett - I'm not bothered about trying to get Susan interested in the case or trying to get anything published....I just wonder what her side of the above is. The PJ confirms the calls to Krugel, not sure where the evidence for a "smattering of contacts between Gerry, Krugel and Susan Puren" is (in the PJ also?)....but it would be interesting to hear her side of things.

I'll ask and see what she says.
@ pyrite

It was actually Ben Salmon, of course, who wrote the words above - not Get'emGoncalo, who merely posted the OP.

I see now where you're coming from, Ben Salmon wrote: "there are a smattering of contacts between Gerry, Krugel and Susan Puren".

I am wondering actually how Ben knows this. Are there 'phone calls in Gerry's telephone records made to and from Susan Puren? If so, I can't say I remember anyone brining the up over the past 9 years.

But then again, we know from Ben's post that he learnt certan things about Krugel privately. So maybe he heard about the calls to Susan Puren privately as well? Maybe Ben will come along soon and clarify for us.

Making some initial enquiries about Susan Puren's track record, I came across this, actually from August 2007, round about the same time:

http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/youmagazine.html

Since then the case [of six missing girls] has popped up in the news from time to time but has remained unsolved. Then at the end of July, Carte Blanche had viewers glued to their TV sets with a gripping programme in which Bloemfon­tein inventor Danie Krugel and Joburg clairvoyant Marietta Theunissen joined forces with Carte Blanche producer Susan Puren to find answers.

Danie and Marietta believe they've tracked the girls' remains to a deserted area within six city blocks of Van Rooyen's house. Danie says he used hair samples from some of the girls and one of his inventions to find the remains. Marietta says she has communicated with the girls in the spirit world. Archaeologists from the University of Pretoria, working in the area Danie and Marietta pointed out, excavated bones which they sent for DNA testing. Carte Blanche has now asked the police to continue investigations in the hope they'll do further excavatations in the large area the team couldn't cover in a week.

Hmmm. So Susan Puren was prepared to co-operate with (a) a con artist and his hair machine and (b) a 'clairvoyant' who regulalrly used to chat to six dead girls 'in the spirit world'.

I can't see a great deal of 'illumination' being spread by these two clowns

____________________

 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

avatar
Tony Bennett

Posts : 14655
Reputation : 2791
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 12:21

@Pyrite wrote:....but it would be interesting to hear her side of things.

I'll ask and see what she says.
I wonder you didn't do that in the first place.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Pyrite on 02.01.17 12:32

@Verdi wrote:
@Pyrite wrote:....but it would be interesting to hear her side of things.

I'll ask and see what she says.
I wonder you didn't do that in the first place.

Verdi, this case is HUGE....and as I have said previously I have only recently returned to this forum and by no means have I read everything, or do I have the vast knowledge of others. I have no clue if anyone had already spoke to Susan, (and I like talking to people directly...esp those directly involved) so not wishing to waste my time I asked first. 

I have now asked....lets see what she says...if anything at all.



.
avatar
Pyrite

Posts : 32
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-01-27

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 12:39

Confusion reigns supreme - I was under the impression that Krugel's magic machine initially led him to a spot on the beach, not The Black Rock.  Searching for confirmation of this I happened upon some interesting bits concerning this South African prodigy - thanks to Nigel Moore of mccannfiles now hosted by Pamalam.

I'm loathed to refer to a press article (it is from 'the intelligent tabloid') but so far the subject matter has centered around one Express article and since the Krugel saga has grown a pair of legs, I will post this as a reminder of the Krugel hype surrounding his visit to Praia da Luz in the summer of 2007.  The use of quotation marks throughout suggest that the words came direct from the mouth of Krugel - make your own mind up..

I know where Maddy body is Sunday Mirror  -  Danie Krugel

By Nick Owens
7/10/2007

EXCLUSIVE THE SEARCH FOR MADELEINE DAY 157 Expert pin-points spot on Algarve beach He accuses police of ignoring his report

Desperate Kate and Gerry McCann have hired a professional "bodyfinder" who says he has pin-pointed the exact spot where their daughter Madeleine is buried.

Scientist and former South African police colonel Danie Krugel secretly flew out to Portugal to meet the couple before spending a week tracking the four-year-old's DNA trail.

Using cutting-edge technology, Krugel led Portuguese police to an area of beach 500 yards from where she vanished.

Detectives took his finding so seriously that they sealed off the entire area.

But in what could turn out to be yet another astonishing bungle, Portuguese police never bothered to dig at the spot.

Now, as sacked police chief Goncalo Amaral is off the inquiry and a new officer, Carlos do Carmo - dubbed "Portugal's Robocop" - takes over, Krugel is heading back to reinvestigate.

A source close to the McCanns said last night: "Kate and Gerry are pleased he's returning. They worked with him before and want to see his leads investigated."

The former South African detective has an amazing 90 per cent success rate in tracing missing people.

Speaking exclusively to the Sunday Mirror, he said last night: "I'm preparing to fly to Portugal again because the investigation seems to have come to a halt.

"I'm convinced Madeleine's body is in Praia Da Luz."

The McCanns turned to him in July to spend a week investigating Madeleine's disappearance after being deluged with emails from members of the public recommending him as a "genius".

He said: "Gerry sent me a strand of Madeleine's hair for DNA purposes, which had been removed from her coat."

Krugel became a household name in South Africa when he created a DNA tracking device which solved a 19-year mystery about the whereabouts of six schoolgirls snatched by a paedophile.

He told last night how he used the same method to track a potential burial spot for Madeleine on the beach in Praia da Luz.

The area was sealed off and Krugel suggested sniffer dogs be brought in to further pinpoint the spot where they needed to dig. Yet ironically, when the dogs arrived they were used by cops to turn the finger of suspicion on to Gerry and Kate.

Portuguese police were more excited about the dogs' reaction when they searched the McCanns' Ocean Club apartment and hire car.

It means the area on the beach has still not been searched properly by officers and no dig has ever taken place.

And it came amid new reports from Portuguese newspaper Correio yesterday claiming police believe Madeleine was buried on the beach in Praia da Luz soon after her death.

Krugel added: "After I conducted my investigation I gave the police a map pinpointing the spot I think Madeleine is. And I handed over a 2,000 word report on what they should do next.

"I said sniffer dogs should be brought in to start the search. But I warned that this alone was not enough as dogs are only a success in missing person hunts three out of four times.

"That is why I also suggested a fingertip search of the area and a dig of the spot I located. But if this has not been done, the police really need to start from scratch and investigate that area again."

He added: "Too much time has been wasted accusing Kate and Gerry and not enough has been spent searching for Madeleine and following up on leads."

Krugel's device apparently combines quantum physics and global positioning technology to pin-point a body on a map.

His invention has already helped solve the riddle of a man reported missing by his family.

South African cops had no clue where he was - until Krugel was called in.

He used his DNA expertise to track down the body to a hospital mortuary where he had lain unidentified for days after being knocked down by a car.

Krugel claims his invention works much like a metal detector but tracks minute DNA traces rather than metal.

Krugel landed in Praia da Luz with his machine on July 17 and embarked on a four day search - with the blessing of Portuguese detectives. He said: "I had a meeting with Kate and Gerry where I explained exactly how my technology works and what I was going to do.

"They knew a lot about my work already because people had posted messages about me on the Find Madeleine website.

"The police were fully aware of the work I was about to do.

"I set off with some colleagues and we conducted an extensive search of Praia da Luz using the machine.

"I scoured many different places across the resort and spent time near ports and other exit points in Praia da Luz.

"We spent 16 hours a day searching everywhere - nothing was left unsearched."

Under Portuguese law Krugel is forbidden from revealing the exact spot as he has mentioned it in a police statement. But sources close to the investigation told the Sunday Mirror that it is a spot on the beach in Praia da Luz near where Gerry regularly went running.

Krugel said: "The technology I use picks up a trace using DNA and complex and secret science techniques. Every day the trace was strongest in this one area.

"The machine was highlighting the same co-ordinate and it kept drawing me back there. It left me convinced that Madeleine was there.

"My machine has a 90 per cent success rate, so I am convinced this is the place where Madeleine is buried."

Krugel added: "The Portuguese police took my findings seriously at first, but now the work seems to have stopped. In the short time I have had with Kate and Gerry it is clear they are really concerned that the search for Madeleine is getting put to one side because of rumour and speculation. To them, all that matters is that the search for their daughter should go on day and night."

Krugel's DNA-tracking machine was first featured on South African TV. Respected news programme Carte Blanche introduced Krugel's invention last year showing how it helped recover the remains of six children killed by a paedophile in the late-1980s.

The police knew they had been abducted and murdered by paedophile Gert van Rooyen and his female accomplice Joye Haarhoff.

But where the pair had buried the children was one of the biggest criminal mysteries in South African history - until Krugel was called in.

He used his machine to track down an area near to Van Rooyen's home and in a dig of the area he pinpointed human remains which were found buried deep underground.

The programme claimed that DNA evidence recovered from the skeletons found in the dig proved the bones were those of the missing children. Krugel - head of health and safety at the Central University of Technology in the Free State - is regularly drafted into help in missing children enquiries by South African Police.

The McCanns' decision to fly Krugel to Praia da Luz is one of many steps they have taken to conduct their own search for Madeleine, missing now for 157 days.

As "arguidos" - suspects - Kate and Gerry retain the right to request that certain investigations are carried out.

Krugel said: "Kate and Gerry are right to try anything at all to find their daughter.

"You can't just rely on the police and they have done all they can to think of other ways of looking for Madeleine.

"I have told them I am ready to return to Praia da Luz or wherever they need my help.

"All that matters is to keep searching and to keep trying to find this little girl."
----------

So there you have it, as I suggested in the beginning, a handy little distraction to take the heat of the growing suspicion surrounding the McCanns during that period.  If the road is not leading to Rome on this particular occasion, I think it points in the direction of one UK government media manipulator - regardez the wording.  The bloke is an out and out con-merchant - has his invention hit the big time yet or is it  rusting in the garden shed?

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Pyrite on 02.01.17 12:49

@Verdi wrote:So there you have it, as I suggested in the beginning, a handy little distraction to take the heat of the growing suspicion surrounding the McCanns during that period.  If the road is not leading to Rome on this particular occasion, I think it points in the direction of one UK government media manipulator - regardez the wording.  The bloke is an out and out con-merchant - has his invention hit the big time yet or is it  rusting in the garden shed?


Thanks for that....personally, I have zero interest in DK.  big grin
avatar
Pyrite

Posts : 32
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-01-27

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 13:03

@Pyrite wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@Pyrite wrote:....but it would be interesting to hear her side of things.

I'll ask and see what she says.
I wonder you didn't do that in the first place.

Verdi, this case is HUGE....and as I have said previously I have only recently returned to this forum and by no means have I read everything, or do I have the vast knowledge of others. I have no clue if anyone had already spoke to Susan, (and I like talking to people directly...esp those directly involved) so not wishing to waste my time I asked first. 

I have now asked....lets see what she says...if anything at all.
I fail to see how the size of the case or the extent of your knowledge connects with your contacting a South African journalist who involves herself with promoting a wacky invention and it's 'owner'.

Journalism is just a job, they look for and get paid for big stories.  If she can even remember the case, I doubt if it's of any interest 9-10 years down the line.

I will however wait and see waiting .

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Pyrite on 02.01.17 13:13

@Verdi wrote:

I fail to see how the size of the case or the extent of your knowledge connects with your contacting a South African journalist who involves herself with promoting a wacky invention and it's 'owner'.

Didn't I explain I didn't wish to contact her if she had already been contacted? 

You'd be surprised how sometimes decent journos get involved with wacky stories.....Mark Daly was a great help to me when I spoke with him on the HG case....a case he freely admits fooled him for a short while. 

Who knows what Susan has to say.....because no one here has bothered to talk to her.

Maybe something, maybe nothing....you sit back and wait Verdi....I'll let you know if it turns out to be anything  thumbup
avatar
Pyrite

Posts : 32
Reputation : 13
Join date : 2013-01-27

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 13:15

For information..

Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document PJ Files

By Mark Harrison MBE
National Search Adviser Homicide, Missing Persons, Mass Fatality Disasters in National Policing Improvement Agency [NPIA]
23 July 2007

- Extract from report, relative to search by Mr Krugel -

A Mr Krugel, at the McCann's request, attended Praia Da Luz last week from South Africa alleging he could assist in locating Madeleine McCann. I have spoken with the Police officers that accompanied him and viewed the documentation Krugel has supplied to the PJ.

The limiting factor in coming to a view is that Krugel did not allow anyone to view the handheld device he had with him or observe him using it. He was unable to provide any validating scientific data or documents to support the claims he made or the device he alleged to have with him.

In short he would appear to claim he has uniquely developed a handheld device that can find a missing person alive or dead in any given terrain over any elapsed time period.

In debriefing the officers who accompanied Krugel it is possible to hypothesise what he may have been doing and using.

In consultation with a colleague Dr Wolfram Meier-Augenstein we feel he may have been attempting to give the impression he had developed and was using a "Remote Laser based gas sensing device". However his claims regarding the distance of detection, up to 20km, and the use of a hair sample are highly unlikely and would be a great innovation in the scientific world. Further provenance of this technique could be sought from Prof. Miles Padgett who is a Professor of optics in physics at the University of Glasgow.

One obvious challenge to the claims of the device capability is that if Krugel claims that by taking 3 separate location readings he is able to triangulate to an area then one would assume that, as an area was identified, further reading and triangulation inside that area could be conducted repeatedly until an "X marked the spot".

Of most concern is the poor quality of his report which merely shows a google earth image of an area to the east of Praia Da Luz and includes open scrub and beach and sea. As Krugel was not prepared to allow the device to be viewed or provide any specification data of readings or equipment and the fact that no known device currently exists commercially or academically then I can only conclude that the information he has provided is likely to be of low value.

[Thanks again to Nigel Moore and Pamalam]

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Verdi on 02.01.17 13:18

Madeleine McCann Danie Krügel Facts (Danie Krugel's official site)

October 2007

Danie was in Portugal during July 2007. As from the second day of her disappearance they have made every attempt to assist in the search for her. Not to jeopardize the investigation in any way Danie requested the McCanns and the police not to reveal his involvement until the conclusion of the investigation. Danie provided a full report with detailed maps of her location for searching. It was subsequently provided to the McCanns and Police.

    Map location of Madeleine: July 2007

    After five months of fruitless efforts to find Madeleine, despite detailed information given by me to all relevant parties, I have now decided to publish this information so that any member of the public who is willing and able to assist in the search for Madeleine may have access to the very same information I have been providing to the parties involved since July 2007.

    I know that even if she was moved after July 2007, there will still be evidence of her presence in this area.

    I have done my very best, and believe my findings are correct.

    My heart goes out to all who knew and love her.

    Danie Krugel

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Researcher/Moderator

Posts : 5612
Reputation : 3261
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by BlueBag on 02.01.17 13:46

Krugel's device apparently combines quantum physics and global positioning technology to pin-point a body on a map.

Staggering BS of the highest order.

How anyone could take this seriously is beyond me... well unless you are a "source close to the McCanns".
avatar
BlueBag

Posts : 4218
Reputation : 2028
Join date : 2014-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 02.01.17 13:50

@BlueBag wrote:
Krugel's device apparently combines quantum physics and global positioning technology to pin-point a body on a map.

Staggering BS of the highest order.

How anyone could take this seriously is beyond me... well unless you are a "source close to the McCanns".

It's a bit like Stephen Birch's quantum physics and global positioning technological lawnmower-type-thingy that pinpointed Madeleine's remains under Murat's driveway.
avatar
Get'emGonçalo


Posts : 9347
Reputation : 4698
Join date : 2009-11-25
Location : parallel universe

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by sandancer on 02.01.17 14:13

It's always puzzled me why when 
Kate and Gerry continue to insist Madeleine hs come to no harm , no evidence she is dead  alive and findable etc they would go on to bring a "conman " wth a "ludicrous " machine into the "search . The search is this case being for body ! 
You can't have it both ways !

____________________
Be humble for you​ are made​ of earth . Be noble for you​ are made of stars .
avatar
sandancer

Posts : 459
Reputation : 723
Join date : 2016-02-18
Age : 64
Location : Tyneside

Back to top Go down

Re: The House on the Black Rock

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.01.17 14:22

It seems that Susan Puren's association with Danie Krugel was quite extensive and also involved journalism for a programme called 'Carte Blanche' which in newspaper terms, was a sort of Sunday Sport or News of the World.  She seems to have been promoting Krugel becaus he was 'good telly' or 'good copy'.

But she wasn't the only one. It seems that other South African news services were very keen to promote him and build him up - thus promoting a kind of 'mainstream fake news' for their gullible public.

Here, someone called 'Lithpn 64' posts a telling review of another news programme about Krugel - I got this from the 'South African Skeptics frum:

==================


Last night’s 3rd Degree programme on e–TV featured a rebroadcast of the piece on Danie Krugel by Charlene Stanley & crew from a little more than a year ago.  The report apparently won some journalism prize or other and this fact was, of course, taken to mean that the report is actually good, responsible coverage of the issue.  The programme followed its customary format with a live lead-in by Debora Patta, followed by the report.  In her lead-in, Patta gave the reason for the rebroadcast (the prize), before posing the question whether this was revolutionary or a hoax, a question not pursued any further.  Unfortunately, we don’t have the necessary means, otherwise we would have recorded the episode for subsequent closer scrutiny.  However, we took down some notes while the programme was on air, so here’s a brief outline thereof with occasional comments.

After the rolling of the title, the viewer is informed via subtitles of the shocking missing-persons statistics in SA, especially those of children.  The narrator (Stanley) suggests that it would be wonderful if these people could be located by using a few strands of their hair. She goes on to say that “some inventors” in Bloemfontein have cracked just this problem: tracing the source of a sample of “signature material.”  We may easily be mistaken in this, but both Dr 'Luthon64 and I seem to recall that it was at around this point that DNA was first mentioned in the original broadcast a year ago, but there is no mention of it this time. Dr Matie Hoffman, a physicist of undisclosed affiliation, is shown, saying that there is no known way such a device can work as described.  Hoffman speaks for less than 15 seconds and his words mark the only moment of scepticism in the entire report.
 
Next up is a shot of Danie Krugel toying with a radio-controlled helicopter, about to take off in a grassy field.  His voiceover intones gravely that one hundred years ago flight was thought to be impossible, just as now his technology is thought impossible.  Bad analogy, Danie: scientists had at that time already figured out many of the basics of fluid dynamics; that’s why they kept on glueing wings with an airfoil cross-section on their experiments. They knew theoretically how flight should be achievable, while there is no known science, past or present, that can account for what you’re claiming.  Anyway, Krugel intones a dire warning to offenders that they can run but not hide because he’ll be onto them.

Danie then goes on to describe how the Leigh Matthews case was the turning point for him that prompted him to adapt some “navigational equipment” to human hair, which equipment he had previously used for locating minerals.  He says that using a “proper hair sample,” its source can be traced in a “very short time.”  A testimonial is then provided by one Pierre Honnibal whose son disappeared.  Krugel allegedly found him in “20 minutes” and this convinced Honnibal that Krugel’s canonisation is a mere matter of time. Honnibal’s endorsement is followed by a further endorsement, this time from an investigator named Erasmus speaking Afrikaans, while subtitles give an English translation.  Erasmus asserts in no uncertain terms that Krugel “helped” him, and that while he doesn’t know how Krugel’s technology works, he is totally convinced that it does work.

The next section then reports on some impromptu testing of Danie by Stanley and her crew.  The first test involves a crew member hiding in the vicinity of a small hill.  They take a cutting of his hair.  The viewer is told that the target’s cell ’phone is left behind and that he only has a small video camera and a GPS to be used for later verification of his position identified by Krugel.  Meanwhile, Krugel himself is located “about four kilometres away,” taking measurements after the hair sample has been handed to him.  Stanley tells us that Krugel won’t allow them to film him during the test.  There is no mention of any safeguards against cheating, e.g. a third party watching and relaying information to Krugel.

The second test again involves a crew member hiding in a coffee shop in downtown Bloemfontein.  Krugel is told that the target is somewhere in a suburb called “Pelissier,” while actually in a neighbouring suburb called “Fichardtpark.”  We are shown a tuft of hair held between a thumb and the first forefinger joint (presumably cut from the target’s head) and it is clear that very few, if any, hair roots are included.  This is handed to Krugel who takes a few measurements, allegedly “gets a signal” and eventually locates the target to within a few hundred metres, though it isn’t reported just how long the procedure took.  A picture of a map is shown indicating Krugel’s prediction and the actual location of the target but it is shown too briefly and indistinctly to conclude anything useful.  This time no comments are made about what equipment the target had, and again no mention is made of any safeguards and/or controls against cheating by Krugel.

The next test involves a “smaller version” of Krugel’s equipment, deployed in the search for an infant who had been hidden earlier under a blanket in a house.  A hair cutting is given to Krugel who then locates the child but again many important details are simply skipped over in favour of the wow-factor.  The fourth test is a real case in which a domestic servant had stolen jewellery and other goods from her employer and then disappeared.  Krugel is shown inspecting a bucket of dirty water, presumably the remains of a mopping operation of the servant’s quarters.  We are told that Krugel finds “three strands of hair.”  He then sets his gear up at night, supposedly “to give the suspect enough time to get home.”  Or maybe to line up his ducks – take your pick.  Next thing, Leon Rossouw appears.  Rossouw is a private investigator and occasional partner to Krugel, and he specialises in locating people using their cell ’phones and the cell infrastructure, an important piece of information that is simply omitted in Stanley’s report.  Rossouw investigates for the “next few days,” and eventually finds the suspect “about 200 metres” from Krugel’s pinpoint.


The fifth and final test is again a real case in which four teenage girls went missing in Bloemfontein.  Pictures and a hairbrush are given to Krugel who “asks around” if anyone has seen the girls, but without any success.  Why, one wonders, would Krugel need to “ask around” if he has this magnificent invention?  After all, it is almost a certainty that there would be at least some hair on the girl’s hairbrush Krugel was given, a point that wasn’t raised at all.  The girls turned up later that evening at a shopping mall (so they couldn’t have been all that missing).  They were asked where they had been between 14:00 and 16:00 that day, which was when Krugel did his location shimmy.  It turns out that the girls weren’t far from the place Krugel had identified.  It wasn’t made clear whether the girls had been moving around during the period in question, nor what other attractions besides shopping malls there were in the area, nor whether any of them had cell ’phones.

At the end of the report, Charles Nqakula, SA’s Minister of Safety and Security, is shown saying how magnificent Krugel’s invention is, how criminals must beware, how much this will do to advance respect for SA’s science in the world, and how they are “collaborating closely” with the inventors.  Oh, and Nqakula briefly mentions getting DNA from hair as the signature material.

Now that we have listened fairly dispassionately to what Stanley and Krugel would have us believe, we have the following urgent request to anyone who wants to put Krugel to the test: get two or three performing magicians to help design and observe the tests because they know what to look for and how to avoid being tricked.  Because as long as reporters like Stanley pretend that (a) their “experiments” and “tests” are credible, and (b) that they have done their job properly by airing a single physicist’s dissenting voice, they are lying to both the public and to themselves.

'Luthon64


++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another sceptical contributor raised these observations on Krugel's boasts:


Quote from: Danie Krugel, as cited in UK Sunday Mirror: "My machine has a 90 per cent success rate, so I am convinced this is the place where Madeleine is buried".

COMMENT: Any evidence for this high success rate, Danie?  I mean other than your say-so?
  

Quote from: Danie Krugel, as cited in UK Sunday Mirror: "Krugel became a household name in South Africa when he created a DNA tracking device which solved a 19-year mystery about the whereabouts of six schoolgirls snatched by a paedophile".

COMMENT: No.  No, he didn't.  They found some bones that could have been human.  Nothing was actually validated.  So please check your facts and stop lying to your readers.
 

Quote from: Danie Krugel, as cited in UK Observer: "Krugel, of the University of Bloemfontein, claims that his technique is able to locate a missing person anywhere in the world using only a single strand of hair. He became famous in South Africa after helping a television crew locate the whereabouts of five South African girls who went missing during the Eighties".

COMMENT: Krugel is a glorified rent-a-cop at the Central University of Technology in Bloemfontein.  He's not a scientist or an engineer.  He didn't become famous here by locating the "five South African girls who went missing during the Eighties," presumably the Gert van Rooyen victims.  Was it five or six he claims to have found?  So please check your facts and stop lying to your readers.
 
Quote from: Danie Krugel, as cited in UK Sunday Mirror: "Respected news programme Carte Blanche introduced Krugel's invention last year showing how it helped recover the remains of six children killed by a paedophile in the late-1980s.

COMMENT: It was 3rd Degree that first brought Krugel onto TV, not Carte Blanche.  And the thing about those "six children" has yet to be authenticated.  Lies do not become true just because you repeat them over and over.

____________________

 Daily Mail journalist Daniel Bates wrote: “Kate and Gerry McCann have released a new picture of their daughter Madeleine as they prepare to commemorate tomorrow’s third anniversary of her disappearance. The photo shows her when she was three after a raid on the dressing-up box. She has a pink bow in her hair and a gold bead necklace and is wearing blue eyeshadow. It was taken weeks before the fateful family holiday to the Portuguese resort of Praia da Luz when Madeleine vanished”

avatar
Tony Bennett

Posts : 14655
Reputation : 2791
Join date : 2009-11-25
Age : 69
Location : Shropshire

Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum