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If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Phoebe on 27.08.17 10:54

 @roz        From the statement of Steve Carpenter-

" I**** was in the group for children between three and four years old, her crèche worker was Emma and it was only after the disappearance of Madeleine McCann that I realised that she was in the same group as I**** "

IMO this is further evidence that, due to the small number of children in the O.C. at the time (before peak season) two groups were often put together for activities and the nannies took turns in minding the whole lot.
Charlotte P also claims that it was her habit, when the infants were sleeping, to go to the mini group and "help out" by playing with and reading stories to the older group.
Kirsty (as you point out) also claims to have minded Madeleine for Emma (not Cat) in order for Emma to make the arrangements for the serving of high tea.
This would mirror my own experience. As I stated earlier, we used to double up and swap quite regularly when there were small numbers of children.


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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Verdi on 27.08.17 13:13

@ Pheobe #24

I cannot imagine how you could think that I am "reverting to Madeleine disappearing" or even dying on the evening of May 3rd. I thought I had made clear my belief that she was dead by May 3rd.

Yes, I'm aware of your original words, I quote ... "Personally I put Madeleine's death later, on either Wednesday night or she was found dead early on Thursday morning" ... and I was careful to repeat them in my reply.  My question following was ... "If the assumption has reverted to Madeleine 'disappearance' on the night of Thursday 3rd May, how would the daytime creche arrangements have any bearing?"

The reference to the night of Thursday 3rd May was a generalisation, not specifically aimed at you - there are many people who still believe the McCanns version of events, despite compelling evidence to the contrary.  My question however remains the same - how can the daytime creche arrangement have any bearing on Madeleine's 'disappearance'?  More importantly where is the evidence?

Why would the police be interested in the nannies accounts of Madeleine's time in creche? Well it is evident that they were from the interviews.

Routine policing, as I think I made clear.

What evidence do I have to make me feel Cat did not mind Madeleine's group on May 3rd? Her first statement to the police is a generalized waffle about her role as nanny.

Catriona Baker, as well as all the other child carers, would have been asked a set of routine questions - that is clear.  Routine policing.  I also added that Catriona Baker and Charlotte Pennington had their own stories to tell as time progressed - that is a an entirely different entity.  Where is the evidence to support your supposition?

She only mentions the mini-sail eight months later in her rogatory statement,

Catriona Baker's trip to the beach was covered extensively by the PJ in May 2007, only a week after Madeleine's alleged disappearance.  Regard..

04-Processos, volume IV . Pgs. 870 to 873
04 - VOLUME IVa_Page_870
[url= - VOLUME IVa_Page_870_prosesso.jpg][/url]
04 - VOLUME IVa_Page_871
[url= - VOLUME IVa_Page_871_prosesso.jpg][/url]
04 - VOLUME IVa_Page_872
[url= - VOLUME IVa_Page_872_prosesso.jpg][/url]
04 - VOLUME IVa_Page_873
[url= - VOLUME IVa_Page_873_prosesso.jpg][/url]
Date: 2007.05.10
Place: Praia da Luz, Lagos
Officer responsible: Manuel Pinho, Inspector
Description and result of diligence
Today (10 May 07), accompanied by Joao Barreiras and Catriona Baker, the 'nanny' responsible for the missing minor, retraced the places and times at which they left the resort area to go to Praia da Luz. A photographic report [of this journey] is attached:
- We were told by Catriona that the only days they went to the beach were Tuesday afternoon (1 May 2007) between 15:30 and 16:30, on Wednesday (the next day) at the same time and on Thursday between 10 and 11 o'clock (see attached table [of creche activities]).

- The route taken was as follows:

1. The parents left the children at "Baby Club", Mark Warner, situated next to the principal reception and which is open 24 hours;
2. then Catriona, with Madeleine and 4 or 5 more children, walked toward the beach. The distance is about 100 metres but not in a straight line;
3. she was always in front with the children behind linked together in a "summy snake" (the object being to form a snake so that the children stayed together in Indian file);
4. leaving the "Baby Club" they descended the stairs to the principal reception, through the front-entrance and crossed Rua Direita (the main street in Praia da Luz) heading for Beco das Palmeiras [passageway: called 'alley of palm trees'];
5. then they made a right towards Beco do Nordeste [passageway: called 'northeast alley'] after which they made a left and went down a stairway next to a property called "Casa Ortiga", that has the number 17;
6. at the bottom of the steps is Travessa das Redes [another street];
7. crossing this they descended alongside the parking lot towards the esplanade that runs the length of the beach;
8. after reaching the beach they went along the boardwalk to an area where there was a red awning and several thatched sunshades;

- On the first two days the children played and did activities in the sand. On the Thursday they went sailing next to the beach.
- On that day they sailed in a small yellow "catamaran";
- Alice Standley accompanied the children on the route and on the boat. Three children sailed with her at one time;

- Chris Unswork transported the children in a red amphibious boat (life-saving boat) until the boat reached the open sea, and, a few minutes later, returned them to the beach to pick up three other children from the group;

- All said that the children did not meet anyone else during their time at the beach, nor during the trip to it.
- All said that they saw no-one suspicious watching the children nor in the vicinity.
- Catriona said she noticed nothing abnormal [unusual] along the route either when going to the beach or when returning to the resort area.

What evidence have I that the sailing instructors Alice Stanley and Chris Unsworth were interviewed by the P.J.? The files list them as having given statements but they are not among those published.

The absence of formal statement in the PJ files does not mean that statements were given but withheld from released documentation.  It means they didn't exist as an official document.  Regard..

112 OC workers were questioned, amongst them some of English nationality and with the use of interpreters.

In addition, formal questioning was made of English employees most involved, from the MW company -?15 child care workers and two tennis instructors. Also eleven informal questionings with employees who carry out other types of activity. In total, 28 persons. Due to their absence, three individuals were not questioned, Euan Crosby, Steven Jackson and Emma Knights respectively.

Total of individuals questioned was 143, 15 of which were names corresponding to child care workers or "nannies".

Mark Warner Staff

No formal statements from the following in the DVD:

Processo 04 page 852

Euan Crosby OC Beach Manager
Nathan Daniel Francis Scarll [or Scarf] Waterfront Manager
Robert Cook Driver/Maintenance
Stephen Steve] Edward Carruthers Dual Qualified Instructor
Claire Louise Bennet Dual Qualified Instructor
 Bollen  Godsmark   Dual Qualified Instructor 04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_866.
Clare Hicks Dual Qualified Instructor
Lauren Hilder-Darling Dual Qualified Instructor
Steven Jackson Dual Qualified Instructor
Elizabeth Miles Ocean Club nanny
Fraser Calum Nixon [or Nickson] Dual Qualified Instructor
Mark Shult Ocean Club nanny
Sarah Jane Tily Ocean Club nanny
Benjamin Wilkins Dinghy Instructor
Alice_Louise_Stanley  Assistant Instructor  04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_864.
Chris Unsworth Windsurf Instructor
Robert Ragone OC Kids Chef
Jackie McConnel OC nanny

(Note the last two only began work at the OC on 7th June 2007)

Some of the above are mentioned in this service note with details of informal conversations with certain OC staff members.

As HiDeHo pointed out she was looking for evidence that she was seen rather than that she wasn't. Until we hear from those who took her on that sail where she allegedly cried and was frightened, I reserve judgement.

Firstly, HiDeHo's methodology has no bearing on the subject matter.  How she prefers to work and/or express herself makes no difference to the fact that there is not one single independent witness who has stated beyond reasonable doubt that they saw Madeleine alive and well after lunchtime on Sunday 29th April 2007.

The beach workers named are unlikely to be able to confirm Madeleine's presence at the boat trip even if they were formally interviewed.  One of a string of children met for a few minutes in a season - their questioning (no doubt they were questioned informally) counts for little or nothing.  If there were any significance their statements would be in the PJ files.  It's worth noting here that Chris Unsworth is listed as a windsurf instructor - no doubt that's where his passion lies!

In the words of Gerry McCann 'no evidence no evidence no evidence' - and that's an emphatic no!

NB:  I agree that the creche records were a shambles, the staff probably did have their own private arrangements on occasions but I can't see any reason to suspect foul play only to cover their backsides because one of them was nursing a hangover or whatever else - if however Madeleine 'disappeared' early in the week then I can see every reason why.  This jiggery-pokery only needed one participant, with the aid of a fantasist to lead the investigation astray.

The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx

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Re: If the TWINS were not at their creche Thursday morning why did the McCanns LIE and what were they doing between 9am and 12.30PM?

Post by Phoebe on 27.08.17 15:59

@Verdi. Given that the P.J investigation believed that whatever befell Madeleine happened on Thursday eve/night why then do they bother checking the parents/ tapas 7s day to day routines for that week at all? What relevance could this have had to a disappearance on Thurs night? Obviously they were searching for anything that occurred that week which might be linked to Madeleine's "disappearance." I believe the nannies who spent more time with Madeleine than her parents or their group were also regarded as potentially valuable sources of such information.

I imagine that if the Thursday mini-sail actually had occurred as described by Cat then Madeleine would certainly have been remembered by the instructors. She was described as crying and expressing fear and reluctance as she clung to Cat's lap. I cannot imagine her fear would have instantly have evaporated and would expect the sail instructors to have noticed or been told that one of their young sailors was terrified and needed reassurance during the sail.
Excuse the mistake re rogatory. I meant second statement of course.
It is interesting that you posit that witnesses were asked the same questions in a formulaic style. I agree. I have always regarded this as being responsible for the "didn't look like a tourist" repetitions. The latter were often preceded by the information "urged", which leads me to believe that the police themselves asked this question rather than it being offered by the witnesses.


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