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"What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Verdi on Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:29 pm

Too late to edit my last post - the incident was also reported by Natasha Donn of the Portugal Resident way back in March 2008..

http://portugalresident.com/shortfalls-in-child-care

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Verdi on Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:31 pm

@aquila wrote:It is a legal requirement to log the presence of the children dropped off in the creche building. It's standard procedure in case of fire isn't it?

It is a legal requirement to protect the creche employees that the children dropped off in their care are signed in and out with methodical accuracy.

Have a look at Mark Warner's holiday terms and conditions and you'll find a lot of legal stuff as to the liability Mark Warner undertake.
Fair enough!

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by purple92 on Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:43 am

Avid reader here, but not much for posting.

However, as a teacher myself, and in the spirit of back to school here in the US, I had to chime in....

I think the point being made about the crèche records & signatures is not so much their validity as a legal document, but something far simpler. While I agree that holiday resorts are more relaxed than regular schools or day cares, I disagree that the record sheets are used in a relaxed manner at all. And no matter how unprofessional, inexperienced, or uninterested the holiday crèche workers may be, I am SURE the majority of them have the children's best interests at heart and know better than to be lax in their signing out procedures.

Schools need to be positive who is signing out a child or picking up a child from school. This because of custody issues where certain adults or guardians in the child's life should not be allowed to pick up the child, etc. Imagine in a tourist complex how many more issues there might be! Not to suggest that kidnappers are just lurking around. But in a resort area, there could be some unsavory characters, as there could be anywhere, and if they knew that the crèche was super relaxed in signing out procedures, well.....

The point is, children are children, and I doubt that the crèche workers were so inexperienced to allow anyone to come in and sign out any child. Even if ID was not shown, they should have SOME idea of who the parents are. I work a weekly summer camp each year where the parents change each week, and we are very strict with signing out, and I can definitely recognize some parents by the second day.

I just find it odd that these workers would not notice if a different child was being used/if a different adult was doing the pickups/ etc. Also, children of that age share all kinds of information, even things their parents wish they wouldn't. I have a hard time believing Maddie wouldn't have done the same, so to have so few details from the workers about her is odd to me, as is the lack of artwork and photos from her time at the crèche.

Again, this is all coming from a teacher perspective, but I just find the whole crèche thing odd.

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by MayMuse on Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:18 pm

KM explaining "cadaver odour" work and cuddle cat. 
I knew I'd read it somewhere;

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/kate-mccann-explains-smell-of-cadaver.html

By Paulo Reis

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by worriedmum on Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:37 pm

@MayMuse wrote:KM explaining "cadaver odour" work and cuddle cat. 
I knew I'd read it somewhere;

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/kate-mccann-explains-smell-of-cadaver.html

By Paulo Reis
Thank you MayMuse, it's always good to see the original .
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by MayMuse on Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:56 pm

@worriedmum wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:KM explaining "cadaver odour" work and cuddle cat. 
I knew I'd read it somewhere;

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/kate-mccann-explains-smell-of-cadaver.html

By Paulo Reis
Thank you MayMuse, it's always good to see the original .
Yes, it had bothered me somewhat since discussing and could not find the exact link  ( many whooshed),  today whilst searching for something else Bingo!  So, there it is from the horses mouth as the saying goes! 
I wonder if  this was what was "secreted" out from the PJ?

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by MayMuse on Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:04 am

Something else noticed whilst looking at the collected forensics in the files.
It says blue curtains and the white inner linings and armband? 
I can find no forensic report  on the "armband" and query if they meant an actual armband or the curtain tie back which has been translated incorrectly? 
An armband could mean a bracelet or a swimming armband; incidentally these are the living room curtains behind the sofa. 
Anyone have any ideas?

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Verdi on Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:22 pm

@MayMuse wrote:Something else noticed whilst looking at the collected forensics in the files.
It says blue curtains and the white inner linings and armband? 
I can find no forensic report  on the "armband" and query if they meant an actual armband or the curtain tie back which has been translated incorrectly? 
An armband could mean a bracelet or a swimming armband; incidentally these are the living room curtains behind the sofa. 
Anyone have any ideas?
Good quality wrist bands?

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by TrevorNigel on Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:57 pm

A superb post.
My goodness, how could the Police or media not do this ?
There is a simple choice with this case , you either believe
A. The Mc's abduction story ( or that they believe it)
B. You dont

If you choose A...that's fine
If you choose B.  .well that gives you the following options

1. One / both of the Mc's or a person/s known to them killed Madeleine ( by accident or other)
2 One / both of the Mc's or a person/s known to them 
Concealed the body.
3 One / both of the Mc's or a person/s known to them 
Constructed and or helped with the ongoing cover up.
4 One /All /Any combination of above.

How can any sane person or persons fail to have this opinion ?
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by sar on Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:30 pm

@worriedmum wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:KM explaining "cadaver odour" work and cuddle cat. 
I knew I'd read it somewhere;

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/kate-mccann-explains-smell-of-cadaver.html

By Paulo Reis
Thank you MayMuse, it's always good to see the original .
and what did cuddlecat do?....sit on the side whilst the good Dr merrily signed death certificates?  Weird.

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by woodpecker on Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:41 pm

@purple92 wrote:Avid reader here, but not much for posting.

However, as a teacher myself, and in the spirit of back to school here in the US, I had to chime in....

I think the point being made about the crèche records & signatures is not so much their validity as a legal document, but something far simpler. While I agree that holiday resorts are more relaxed than regular schools or day cares, I disagree that the record sheets are used in a relaxed manner at all. And no matter how unprofessional, inexperienced, or uninterested the holiday crèche workers may be, I am SURE the majority of them have the children's best interests at heart and know better than to be lax in their signing out procedures.

Schools need to be positive who is signing out a child or picking up a child from school. This because of custody issues where certain adults or guardians in the child's life should not be allowed to pick up the child, etc. Imagine in a tourist complex how many more issues there might be! Not to suggest that kidnappers are just lurking around. But in a resort area, there could be some unsavory characters, as there could be anywhere, and if they knew that the crèche was super relaxed in signing out procedures, well.....

The point is, children are children, and I doubt that the crèche workers were so inexperienced to allow anyone to come in and sign out any child. Even if ID was not shown, they should have SOME idea of who the parents are. I work a weekly summer camp each year where the parents change each week, and we are very strict with signing out, and I can definitely recognize some parents by the second day.

I just find it odd that these workers would not notice if a different child was being used/if a different adult was doing the pickups/ etc. Also, children of that age share all kinds of information, even things their parents wish they wouldn't. I have a hard time believing Maddie wouldn't have done the same, so to have so few details from the workers about her is odd to me, as is the lack of artwork and photos from her time at the crèche.

Again, this is all coming from a teacher perspective, but I just find the whole crèche thing odd.
Some excellent points here. Remember the McCanns were there at the beginning of the season and the creche was not exactly full. You could understand that in July/August the creche would be full, the creche nannies could be run off their feet and the signing in book at the entrance would not be always manned by a staff member - hence easy for anyone to drop a child in and scribble an illegible signature on the sheet. Getting a child out would be harder.
 So in the low season I would expect the creche records to be accurate and kept in accordance with the rules. Members here have looked at them and highlighted oddities/irregularities; a mystery to add to all the others in this bizarre case.

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Equity on Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:26 pm

Superb piece of research by all contributors and makes compelling reading.

However, this would be a good place to post something that I have always found inexplicable. Something not based on hours and hours of painstaking research but just plain old fashioned human emotion.

I, and I'm sure many other forum members, have had the misfortune over the years to experience traumatic events - not just to close family, but to friends and colleagues.

Without exception, an uncontrolled outpouring of grief has always occurred and was hard to experience and witness. I've seen people pass out, make sounds you never hear in any other circumstance and others requiring heavy sedation. If a child was involved, the affect on even casual acquaintances was dramatic and long lasting.

I find it almost impossible to comprehend that not only the parents but close friends could function without anyone noticing the agonising grief and stress indelibly etched on their faces - tennis lessons, sailing, laughing and joking in the Tapas Restaurant all carried out with casual aplomb having witnessed the death of a child - really?

I've seen the look that KM had on her face the morning of the 4th May before. To me she didn't look as if she was acting. If she had been holding that in all week she would be a unique individual.

I am obviously not wishing to dismiss the outstanding research which certainly highlights the strange events of that week but simply going by my own experience I struggle to accept that 'acting normal' would be possible - doctors or not. Unless they are all borderline psychopaths of course.
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by TrevorNigel on Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:09 pm

@Equity wrote:Superb piece of research by all contributors and makes compelling reading.

However, this would be a good place to post something that I have always found inexplicable. Something not based on hours and hours of painstaking research but just plain old fashioned human emotion.

I, and I'm sure many other forum members, have had the misfortune over the years to experience traumatic events - not just to close family, but to friends and colleagues.

Without exception, an uncontrolled outpouring of grief has always occurred and was hard to experience and witness. I've seen people pass out, make sounds you never hear in any other circumstance and others requiring heavy sedation. If a child was involved, the affect on even casual acquaintances was dramatic and long lasting.

I find it almost impossible to comprehend that not only the parents but close friends could function without anyone noticing the agonising grief and stress indelibly etched on their faces - tennis lessons, sailing, laughing and joking in the Tapas Restaurant all carried out with casual aplomb having witnessed the death of a child - really?

I've seen the look that KM had on her face the morning of the 4th May before. To me she didn't look as if she was acting. If she had been holding that in all week she would be a unique individual.

I am obviously not wishing to dismiss the outstanding research which certainly highlights the strange events of that week but simply going by my own experience I struggle to accept that 'acting normal' would be possible - doctors or not. Unless they are all borderline psychopaths of course.
.
I totally understand where you are coming from
Its all part of the mystery of the understanding of all this.
However the only way you can feel that the Mcs are genuine in any of this ,is if you believe their abduction story OR at least believe that THEY believe it.
If you dont believe their abduction story then you simply have to believe they are complicit ( it just becomes about to what degree)?
I dont believe there is a third option , or is there one ?
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Verdi on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:33 pm

@Equity wrote:I am obviously not wishing to dismiss the outstanding research which certainly highlights the strange events of that week but simply going by my own experience I struggle to accept that 'acting normal' would be possible - doctors or not. Unless they are all borderline psychopaths of course.
But they (the McCanns) did - didn't they.  Whether Madeleine disappeared at the beginning of the week, during the week or on Thursday 3rd May 2007, there has never been any sign of the raw emotion that you speak of.  Something tragic happened to Madeleine McCann during that week - FACT - still the parents carried on as if nothing out of the ordinary had occurred.

I can't dispute what you say from your own experience but there is no code of practice, guideline, law or fixed response to personal tragedy - everyone is different and will react differently in similar circumstances.  Even the world of psychology will confirm that there is no proper way to respond, no consistency in the way people grieve or react to personal tragedy.

Former generations, from which some still remain, looked at life and death more philosophically - for the most part they weren't prostrated by grief, life and death being all part of life's rich tapestry.  There will always be exceptions to the rule but again, we are all different.  I can't bear to witness anyone/thing in chronic pain, death being a blessing - no doubt others will be horrified by the suggestion.  Horrendous situations across the globe are part of everyday life, those responsible for some of the atrocities wouldn't bat an eyelid - the McCanns are no exception.  There are many examples of parents/prime carers that have abused their responsibility but perfectly capable of feigning distress or angelic innocence when in the spotlight - the McCanns are no exception.

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by TrevorNigel on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:46 pm

@Verdi wrote:
@Equity wrote:I am obviously not wishing to dismiss the outstanding research which certainly highlights the strange events of that week but simply going by my own experience I struggle to accept that 'acting normal' would be possible - doctors or not. Unless they are all borderline psychopaths of course.
But they (the McCanns) did - didn't they.  Whether Madeleine disappeared at the beginning of the week, during the week or on Thursday 3rd May 2007, there has never been any sign of the raw emotion that you speak of.  Something tragic happened to Madeleine McCann during that week - FACT - still the parents carried on as if nothing out of the ordinary had occurred.

I can't dispute what you say from your own experience but there is no code of practice, guideline, law or fixed response to personal tragedy - everyone is different and will react differently in similar circumstances.  Even the world of psychology will confirm that there is no proper way to respond, no consistency in the way people grieve or react to personal tragedy.

Former generations, from which some still remain, looked at life and death more philosophically - for the most part they weren't prostrated by grief, life and death being all part of life's rich tapestry.  There will always be exceptions to the rule but again, we are all different.  I can't bear to witness anyone/thing in chronic pain, death being a blessing - no doubt others will be horrified by the suggestion.  Horrendous situations across the globe are part of everyday life, those responsible for some of the atrocities wouldn't bat an eyelid - the McCanns are no exception.  There are many examples of parents/prime carers that have abused their responsibility but perfectly capable of feigning distress or angelic innocence when in the spotlight - the McCanns are no exception.
From all general evidence, yes, it would seem that way.
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by spacestar on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:38 am

@Ashwarya wrote:This is a really interesting thread.  Regarding the Make-Up Photo, does anyone else have the feeling that it may have been taken after Madeleine had died?  I know this sounds really macabre, but the Victorians for example used to take family photos immediately after a child had died by dint of propping them up in a line up with the other children, not to convince anyone that the child was still alive, obviously, but so that they had a record of the complete family as it had been up to then.  The make up photo is taken at such a strange and provocative angle that this seems a possibility, and as you point out it is a sad picture rather than one of a child who has "raided mummy's make up box"!  I do apologise if this offends anyone, but I have always wondered about this.

This thought has crossed my mind several times about the makeup photo, but I didn't have the courage to say anything for fear of ridicule and being thought too macabre and  morbid. This is the first time I have seen anyone else mention it, so thanks for that. I do think the child's eyes have a dead look about them in that photo, and the way her head appears to be held back makes it look very purposefully posed. I also believe the blue in the background is the shoulder of an adult holding her in their lap. I hope I am wrong in thinking this, but this case is so full of strange off the wall stuff that nothing would actually shock me anymore  sad1
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by NickE on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:14 pm

This was posted by Derek Spring today on Facebook.
He is a Pro McCann....but what is he talking about here?
Is he suggest that there was two Madeleine 4-5 days before May 3rd?

"IF,THE POLICE had come to see me when madeleine went missing ,as with me it started 4 to 5  days before she went missing ,why would I see a girl looked like madeleine ,got her name told it was going to happen ,holiday time ,told a friend  2 days before she is missing it was going to happen etc, what I have not told you is about the priests  what I got about 4 weeks before mc, missing .this comes right ,so all the  other things that has happened have come right ,right down to the latest photos of the couple who have her unless I am wrong .so  are you telling me all of the other things are coincidence I think not. the  QUESTION IS DO YOU WANT HER BACK"

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by spacestar on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:23 pm

@NickE wrote:This was posted by Derek Spring today on Facebook.
He is a Pro McCann....but what is he talking about here?
Is he suggest that there was two Madeleine 4-5 days before May 3rd?

"IF,THE POLICE had come to see me when madeleine went missing ,as with me it started 4 to 5  days before she went missing ,why would I see a girl looked like madeleine ,got her name told it was going to happen ,holiday time ,told a friend  2 days before she is missing it was going to happen etc, what I have not told you is about the priests  what I got about 4 weeks before mc, missing .this comes right ,so all the  other things that has happened have come right ,right down to the latest photos of the couple who have her unless I am wrong .so  are you telling me all of the other things are coincidence I think not. the  QUESTION IS DO YOU WANT HER BACK"

Maybe I'm just a bit thick, but this posting makes absolutely no sense to me at all!  huh
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Roxyroo on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:41 pm

Sounds to me like he's saying he's a psycic of some sort? But yes, very very strange from a Pro!?!?
agree

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by spacestar on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:47 pm

I've just had a look on his facebook page and he has photos of a young girl as his featured photos. He sounds like a weirdo to me..
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by NickE on Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:03 pm

@spacestar wrote:
@NickE wrote:This was posted by Derek Spring today on Facebook.
He is a Pro McCann....but what is he talking about here?
Is he suggest that there was two Madeleine 4-5 days before May 3rd?

"IF,THE POLICE had come to see me when madeleine went missing ,as with me it started 4 to 5  days before she went missing ,why would I see a girl looked like madeleine ,got her name told it was going to happen ,holiday time ,told a friend  2 days before she is missing it was going to happen etc, what I have not told you is about the priests  what I got about 4 weeks before mc, missing .this comes right ,so all the  other things that has happened have come right ,right down to the latest photos of the couple who have her unless I am wrong .so  are you telling me all of the other things are coincidence I think not. the  QUESTION IS DO YOU WANT HER BACK"

Maybe I'm just a bit thick, but this posting makes absolutely no sense to me at all!  huh
:)That's why I asked because English is not my first language.

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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by MayMuse on Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:10 pm

@NickE wrote:
@spacestar wrote:
@NickE wrote:This was posted by Derek Spring today on Facebook.
He is a Pro McCann....but what is he talking about here?
Is he suggest that there was two Madeleine 4-5 days before May 3rd?

"IF,THE POLICE had come to see me when madeleine went missing ,as with me it started 4 to 5  days before she went missing ,why would I see a girl looked like madeleine ,got her name told it was going to happen ,holiday time ,told a friend  2 days before she is missing it was going to happen etc, what I have not told you is about the priests  what I got about 4 weeks before mc, missing .this comes right ,so all the  other things that has happened have come right ,right down to the latest photos of the couple who have her unless I am wrong .so  are you telling me all of the other things are coincidence I think not. the  QUESTION IS DO YOU WANT HER BACK"

Maybe I'm just a bit thick, but this posting makes absolutely no sense to me at all!  huh
:)That's why I asked because English is not my first language.
Sounds tô me as if he is desribing a "psychic vision or a dream" ? 
The photos of the couple. The podesta brothers.?
If the police had come to me, no you go to them if you have information. 

Take with a pinch of salt!

----------------------

Yes, Derek Spring is a notorious so-called psychic - and we agree that his rambling post quoted above makes no sense at all. We have given psychics no 'house room' whatsoever on CMOMM, partly because hundreds, maybe thousands of them have come up with their impressions and idea and imaginations about what happened to Madeleine - and no two say the same thing!

It is manifestly a waste of time for anyone to listen to their ramblings.

And here's another very curious thing. How many of these psychics who pontificate about what happened to Madeleine believe that Madeleine died in the apartment?

None that we can think of. Every single one states their belief that Madeleine was abducted.

That's a second very good reason for ignoring their nonsense.

Let's get right back to discussing the evidence for and against Madeleine having died on Sunday 29 April - Mod

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Date of Repair of the shutter in G5A

Post by June on Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:49 pm

According to the PJ files the repair of the shutter etc. did not happen on Monday April, 30. as stated in the main articel but in Tuesday May, 1.


02-Processo Vol II page 309 -310

...
"That that job occurred on 1 May and was performed by staff members Luis and Mario."
...


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by Phoebe on Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:28 pm

Were the P.J. ever given the "permission to leave" records to examine? In any childcare situation which involves minors being brought to "outside" activities eg. school trips/matches, youth group outings to arts/ drama/ outdoor pursuits centres etc. written permission is routinely sought from guardians or parents for insurance purposes. In the case of the "Lobsters", children aged 3-5 were being brought along public roads near traffic and to the beach where accidents could easily happen.The sailing was a particularly risky activity with such young children. I imagine all parents were asked to sign consent for this. I Know my own kids, even as teenagers, were forever bringing home "permission slips" to be signed with the caveat  " No slip, no go". Would these help confirm Madeleine's presence at certain activities? There were at least 2 beach trips.
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Re: "What's the evidence that Madeleine died on Sunday 29 April?"

Post by June on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:11 pm

@spacestar wrote:
@Ashwarya wrote:This is a really interesting thread.  Regarding the Make-Up Photo, does anyone else have the feeling that it may have been taken after Madeleine had died?  I know this sounds really macabre, but the Victorians for example used to take family photos immediately after a child had died by dint of propping them up in a line up with the other children, not to convince anyone that the child was still alive, obviously, but so that they had a record of the complete family as it had been up to then.  The make up photo is taken at such a strange and provocative angle that this seems a possibility, and as you point out it is a sad picture rather than one of a child who has "raided mummy's make up box"!  I do apologise if this offends anyone, but I have always wondered about this.

This thought has crossed my mind several times about the makeup photo, but I didn't have the courage to say anything for fear of ridicule and being thought too macabre and  morbid. This is the first time I have seen anyone else mention it, so thanks for that. I do think the child's eyes have a dead look about them in that photo, and the way her head appears to be held back makes it look very purposefully posed. I also believe the blue in the background is the shoulder of an adult holding her in their lap. I hope I am wrong in thinking this, but this case is so full of strange off the wall stuff that nothing would actually shock me anymore  sad1

To me it seems also as person post mortem pictures in this photo. I have only some indications for that but of course no evidence.
Because im new to the matter (a month) and do not have but basic knowledge of the multiple parameters there are in this tragic case, i would like to wait till maybe others would open the discussion on this point so we can gather the possible information.

My best regards from Switzerland and thanks for letting me join.
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McCanns apt & hire car


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