Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

by Guest 15.08.16 23:22

Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources. After Murat was named a formal suspect, the police went through all translations he had done, checking their accuracy, but no problem was found, according to the same sources. Bill Henderson retired from his diplomatic post and went back to the U.K. in August.

UNQUOTE

The link doesn't work for me. Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept. Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that? Normally, the police would have a list of accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognized accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here. What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?

by Guest 15.08.16 23:26

Tony Bennett wrote:
aquila wrote:Amaral was in charge of a major investigation. He was in charge of who was selected as an interpreter - please don't mix up translator with interpreter.

The PJ needs to verify the credentials of Murat and why he was chosen.
OK, here's a scenario.

At the Ocean Club, about 9am to 10am, Friday 4 May:

Murat (to PJ Officer): Hi, my name's Robert Murat, I'm bilingual, Stephen Carpenter just told me about the terrible thing that happened to that young British girl. Do you know, I've got a daughter the same age. I would love to be able to help. Do you need any help with translating?

Aquila (in background, whispering): You mean interpreting?

Murat (to Aquila): Yes boss, interpreting.

PJ Officer: Obrigado, Snr Murat. Are you a registered translator?

Aquila (louder than before): Interpreter!

Murat: Yes indeed I am! I did a lot of work for Norfolk Police as a ~~trans~~ oops! interpreter. If you ring Bill Henderson at the British Embassy, he'll confirm my credentials.

PJ Officer to Henderson: Do you know Murat?

Henderson to PJ Officer: Oh yes. How can I help?

PJ Officer: Is he a registered tr... interpreter?

Henderson (sounding like dog on the Churchill ad): Oh yes! Oh yes! Jolly good chap. First class tr.. interpreter. I cannot recommend him too highly.

PJ Officer to Murat: When can you start? We need to talk to the parents and their friends and find out what really happened.

Murat: Right away. I'm, er, not working at the moment, just here on holiday, yer know, got all the time in the world.

LATER: Murat begins, um, interpreting

Where was Jane Tanner all this time - hiding behind a door on a recognition mission?

by **sharonl** 15.08.16 23:33

Wiki - definition of an interpreter

1. One who translates orally from one language into another.

by **Tony Bennett** 16.08.16 8:44

Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources.

[SNIPPED] UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me. Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept. Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that? Normally, the police would have a list of accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognised accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here. What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?

@ Verdi The article I linked to was written by Paulo Reis, a journalist who did a huge amount of research in the early days (2007/8) but tjhen abandoned his interest in the case, understandably so as his workload was heavily skewed on writing articles on the case and he was neglecting to cover other stories. I think any member of guest who was 'on the case' what back then would recognise Reis as a trustworthy source. He is Portuguese. I am sure from what he wrote that he had a PJ officer briefing him and that is why I tend to trust his account of Murat being vouchsafed by the British Embassy. And that would tend to explain why Amaral had never heard of him.

Whilst we in the U.K. insist on accredited translators and interpreters, I am not sure what the position is in Portugal.

I am reminded of my mother's situation. After bringing up my brother and I as a homemaker, taking in a few paying guests from time to time, she eventually found a nice little job acting as an interpreter for the police in Serbo-Croat, German and sometimes Slovenian in Bournemouth. Bournemouth had become a major centre for teaching English to foreign students by the late 1960s, and this brought with it thousands of visitors from European countries, anxious to learn English. Before the days of accreditation, the police contacted my mother to interpret for some of these foreign students, some of whom had an unhappy tendency to go round the town shoplifting or causing criminal damage. She carried on doing this work until she was 82, sometimes being woken in the middle of the night to attend an interview under caution. Regulations then came in which meant that interpreters had to go on courses, pass a test and get accredited by some agency or other, so at that point my mother was forced to give up. She got a lovely letter from the Chairman of the Bench in Bournemouth which basically said she was bitterly disappointed that the dead hand of inflexible bureaucracy had deprived the Bournemouth bench of their best interpreter.

by sallypelt 16.08.16 11:00

I have, for quite a while, been thinking that this cover-up - and I have no doubt, whatsoever, that there IS a cover-up - came from a much higher authority, and not from the McCanns themselves. I also believe that the T7 had been instructed to go along with a the cover-up, for whatever reason. Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?

If this is the case, it leaves the 20 million dollar question (I'm taking inflation into account:spin: ) WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY COVERING UP?

by Liz Eagles 16.08.16 11:33

It is still not clear who engaged Murat as an interpreter.

I believe that once there is factual evidence then there will be clarity and hopefully a big stride into securing justice for Madeleine McCann.

by Guest 16.08.16 11:40

sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?

That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

by Guest 16.08.16 12:06

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources.

[SNIPPED] UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me. Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept. Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that? Normally, the police would have a list of accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognised accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here. What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?
@ Verdi The article I linked to was written by Paulo Reis, a journalist who did a huge amount of research in the early days (2007/8) but tjhen abandoned his interest in the case, understandably so as his workload was heavily skewed on writing articles on the case and he was neglecting to cover other stories. I think any member of guest who was 'on the case' what back then would recognise Reis as a trustworthy source. He is Portuguese. I am sure from what he wrote that he had a PJ officer briefing him and that is why I tend to trust his account of Murat being vouchsafed by the British Embassy. And that would tend to explain why Amaral had never heard of him.

Whilst we in the U.K. insist on accredited translators and interpreters, I am not sure what the position is in Portugal.

I am reminded of my mother's situation. After bringing up my brother and I as a homemaker, taking in a few paying guests from time to time, she eventually found a nice little job acting as an interpreter for the police in Serbo-Croat, German and sometimes Slovenian in Bournemouth. Bournemouth had become a major centre for teaching English to foreign students by the late 1960s, and this brought with it thousands of visitors from European countries, anxious to learn English. Before the days of accreditation, the police contacted my mother to interpret for some of these foreign students, some of whom had an unhappy tendency to go round the town shoplifting or causing criminal damage. She carried on doing this work until she was 82, sometimes being woken in the middle of the night to attend an interview under caution. Regulations then came in which meant that interpreters had to go on courses, pass a test and get accredited by some agency or other, so at that point my mother was forced to give up. She got a lovely letter from the Chairman of the Bench in Bournemouth which basically said she was bitterly disappointed that the dead hand of inflexible bureaucracy had deprived the Bournemouth bench of their best interpreter.

Thank you - what a delightful legacy to your mother's work. First hand knowledge is always such a benefit, I will hold further comments on the subject in abeyance, at least until further information may be uncovered about Robert Murat's past.

I've never seen any reason to doubt the integrity of Paulo Reis, from memory I always thought his writing to be honest, well balanced and worthy of attention - no doubt my personal reputation management team that haunts cyberspace will have some counter argument to suggest otherwise :)

I've been looking at mi5.gov.uk - no doubts they have 'intelligence operatives' posted everywhere. They employ approximately 4,000 staff + several hundred staff on secondment or attachment from other government departments and agencies. I quote..

"Staff roles cover a number of areas including investigations, translation, data analysis, technology, surveillance, communications, information management, protective security, administration, building services and catering."

I think the whole organisation can be summed up in these few words in response to the question 'do you need any special qualifications to join MI5', taken from their website..

"Agents are people who work as "Covert Human Intelligence Sources" to supply us with secret intelligence. There is no formal application process - in fact it tends to be us that makes the initial approach."

I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] !

by sallypelt 16.08.16 12:21

Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources.

[SNIPPED] UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me. Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept. Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that? Normally, the police would have a list of accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognised accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here. What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?
@ Verdi The article I linked to was written by Paulo Reis, a journalist who did a huge amount of research in the early days (2007/8) but tjhen abandoned his interest in the case, understandably so as his workload was heavily skewed on writing articles on the case and he was neglecting to cover other stories. I think any member of guest who was 'on the case' what back then would recognise Reis as a trustworthy source. He is Portuguese. I am sure from what he wrote that he had a PJ officer briefing him and that is why I tend to trust his account of Murat being vouchsafed by the British Embassy. And that would tend to explain why Amaral had never heard of him.

Whilst we in the U.K. insist on accredited translators and interpreters, I am not sure what the position is in Portugal.

I am reminded of my mother's situation. After bringing up my brother and I as a homemaker, taking in a few paying guests from time to time, she eventually found a nice little job acting as an interpreter for the police in Serbo-Croat, German and sometimes Slovenian in Bournemouth. Bournemouth had become a major centre for teaching English to foreign students by the late 1960s, and this brought with it thousands of visitors from European countries, anxious to learn English. Before the days of accreditation, the police contacted my mother to interpret for some of these foreign students, some of whom had an unhappy tendency to go round the town shoplifting or causing criminal damage. She carried on doing this work until she was 82, sometimes being woken in the middle of the night to attend an interview under caution. Regulations then came in which meant that interpreters had to go on courses, pass a test and get accredited by some agency or other, so at that point my mother was forced to give up. She got a lovely letter from the Chairman of the Bench in Bournemouth which basically said she was bitterly disappointed that the dead hand of inflexible bureaucracy had deprived the Bournemouth bench of their best interpreter.
Thank you - what a delightful legacy to your mother's work. First hand knowledge is always such a benefit, I will hold further comments on the subject in abeyance, at least until further information may be uncovered about Robert Murat's past.

I've never seen any reason to doubt the integrity of Paulo Reis, from memory I always thought his writing to be honest, well balanced and worthy of attention - no doubt my personal reputation management team that haunts cyberspace will have some counter argument to suggest otherwise :)

I've been looking at mi5.gov.uk - no doubts they have 'intelligence operatives' posted everywhere. They employ approximately 4,000 staff + several hundred staff on secondment or attachment from other government departments and agencies. I quote..

"Staff roles cover a number of areas including investigations, translation, data analysis, technology, surveillance, communications, information management, protective security, administration, building services and catering."

I think the whole organisation can be summed up in these few words in response to the question 'do you need any special qualifications to join MI5', taken from their website..

"Agents are people who work as "Covert Human Intelligence Sources" to supply us with secret intelligence. There is no formal application process - in fact it tends to be us that makes the initial approach."

I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] !

Verdi wrote "I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on"

Yes, I feel the same way. I wouldn't want to be found zipped up in a bag, in a bath. Self imposed, of course! liar

by Guest 16.08.16 12:21

BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

I've never suspected the McCanns or any of their Tapas friends for calling-in Murat but I think it depends on ones definition of a higher authority. I doubt if Murat had direct contact with the Home Office but I can quite believe he was seconded by a local link to the diplomatic corps operating within Portugal. Although the British embassy is in Lisbon there is a vice-consulate in Portimao - only a 30km drive from Praia da Luz; Murat being a local with extensive contacts, who speaks fluent Portuguese, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he would be acquainted consulate staff.

Not forgetting the unprecedented prompt arrival of the ambassador and consulate staff at Praia da Luz after Madeleine was reported missing.

by Guest 16.08.16 12:34

sallypelt wrote:Verdi wrote "I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on"

Yes, I feel the same way. I wouldn't want to be found zipped up in a bag, in a bath. Self imposed, of course!

MI5 website makes for some interesting reading. Their main objective ostensibly being national security but just how far does their definition of protecting the nation extend?

There has been strong rumours (well founded in some respects I believe) that MI5 has been complicit with the national/international cover-up of wide spread child abuse. With such a reputation how can they be trusted to serve the interests of the British public. I doubt if anything could ever be proven as regards their true position as information concerning their activities is either hidden in the vaults under lock and key for eternity or burned at the stake.

by sallypelt 16.08.16 12:42

And wasn't it Murat who said 'this is the biggest fuck up on the planet'?

by Guest 16.08.16 12:54

Kate McCann however tells another story - square brackets my small contribution..

Friday 4th May 2007

Steve Carpenter returned with a man who had offered his assistance. He was, he’d told Steve, bilingual in English and Portuguese and could maybe assist with interpreting. I was grateful for any help we could get [having just got David Payne to get rid of the pushy woman with credentials]. This man was in his thirties, wore glasses and there was something unusual about one of his eyes – a squint, I thought at the time (I have since been told he is blind in one eye). He seemed very personable and was happy to be of service.

When one of the GNR officers came over to request more details about Madeleine and any distinguishing features she had, this man stepped in to translate.

I was holding a photograph of Madeleine, which he asked to see. As he studied it, he told me about his daughter back in England who was the same age, and who, he said, looked just like Madeleine. I was a little irked by this. In the circumstances, it seemed rather tactless, even if he was simply trying to empathize. I didn’t think his daughter could possibly be as beautiful as Madeleine – though of course, as her mum, I didn’t think any other little girl could be as beautiful as Madeleine.

When he had finished translating, he turned and began to walk briskly away. Realizing I didn’t know his name, I caught up with him and asked.

‘Robert,’ he said.

‘Thank you, Robert,’ I said.

[goodness me, this is like a game of consequences]

It was about 10am by the time a couple of PJ officers turned up.....

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

by sallypelt 16.08.16 13:01

"Robert, who went to school in Portugal, says: “I have always enjoyed helping people, it’s who I am”. In England, where he lived for 15 years and worked as a car salesman, he also cooperated with the British authorities. “I worked as a translator, for the police and at the court.” Robert goes on to say"

The above paragraph is taken from Steelmagnolia's link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

R.I.P Dani.

by Guest 16.08.16 13:29

Interesting language in the situation as recalled by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.];

'Robert informed him that he was to be an interpreter for the police, and even if he did not want to be there was nothing he could do to avoid, that by law he could not refuse this. And this was the reason he gave for having to postpone some meetings they had planned.'

by **Tony Bennett** 16.08.16 13:53

April28th wrote:Interesting language in the situation as recalled by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.];

'Robert informed him that he was to be an interpreter for the police, and even if he did not want to be there was nothing he could do to avoid, that by law he could not refuse this. And this was the reason he gave for having to postpone some meetings they had planned.'

Ah! @ April28th Absolutely superb find, well done. I'd never read that before.

Jorge da Silva was someone Murat claimed to have met several times on 1st, 2nd and 3rd May, mostly in cafes here and there IIRC. Murat claimed that they were discussing his internet website for his proposed new company, 'Romigen'. To put it kindly, this seemed a most unlikely tale.

'Romigen' was...

Ro for Robert...

mi for Michaeia...

but no-one ever worked out AFAIK who the 'gen' was

by willowthewisp 16.08.16 13:54

sallypelt wrote:And wasn't it Murat who said 'this is the biggest fuck up on the planet'?

Perhaps this was after,Gezza had to have everything run by him first for approval?
Stephen Carpenter introduces Robert Murat to Gerry for the supposed first time,4th May 2007, Ocean Club apartment,after Murat had spoken to Russel O'Brien 08.30am,who's partner Jane Tanner,later"Identifies Robert Murat as the Abductor of Madeleine McCann",with assistance from UK Police Officer Bob Small,which allowed(JT) an earlier opportunity to pick out(RM)before (JT)was placed in the PJ Surveillance Van,to"Officially Identify"Robert Murat as the Abductor within a Four to Six week period May to June 2007,was this the"Fuck Up"or as below?
Russell O'Brien,Jane Tanner,Fiona Payne had told PJ Police that they had sighted(RM)around the complex at 21.30 hrs 3 May 2007?
Irish Family confirm to Police that,"Smithman" wasn't (RM) seen on 3 May 2007 carrying a child at 22.00 hrs and had met(RM only by sight) prior to Madeleine's disappearance during past Two years?
Robert Murat is placed within his Mothers Home,according to his Computer records during this period and his Mother is his Alibi.
DNA evidence was collected from the Burgeau apartment owned by(RM)relatives that correlate to (RM)(JT) or their offspring?
Was this the same apartment Wojech had stayed in,who was reported to be stalking children miles away from the area by Nuno Lourenco?
Remember what Gezza said,"Confusion is Good"?
Robert Murat certainly was a busy little Bee collecting the Nectar for the Queen Bee's hive,wasn't he,meeting all these people who are connected to the case?
Meme;Sir Bernard Hogan Howe.
Interpol and the Metropolitan Police Service in 2008 ruled out or could not confirm or Deny"Paedophile Ring"had become involved with the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
2016, Three Bungling Burglars,not Tourists are the main suspects to be connected to the disappearance,Remit Abduction of Madeleine McCann who are thought to have involvement in the child's whereabouts,after Six Years and Sixteen Million pounds,what a summery to conclude an Investigation for Scotland Yard's Finest?

by sallypelt 16.08.16 14:20

Tony Bennett wrote:
April28th wrote:Interesting language in the situation as recalled by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.];

'Robert informed him that he was to be an interpreter for the police, and even if he did not want to be there was nothing he could do to avoid, that by law he could not refuse this. And this was the reason he gave for having to postpone some meetings they had planned.'
Ah! @ April28th Absolutely superb find, well done. I'd never read that before.

Jorge da Silva was someone Murat claimed to have met several times on 1st, 2nd and 3rd May, mostly in cafes here and there IIRC. Murat claimed that they were discussing his internet website for his proposed new company, 'Romigen'. To put it kindly, this seemed a most unlikely tale.

'Romigen' was...

Ro for Robert...

mi for Michaeia...

but no-one ever worked out AFAIK who the 'gen' was

Could it be Genaro Acosta Gonzales?

This was taken from the link provided below:

comment below suggests the “gen” in Romigen actually stands for Genaro Acosta Gonzales. A Google search on that name will return a listing at another property company in Portugal [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (Google translated to English). There may be no connection between these two companies nor has the comment been verified.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **Tony Bennett** 16.08.16 14:51

BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote:Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

When trying to evaluate Murat’s role in connection with the reported disappearance of Madeleine McCann, we need to look at the whole picture. Even then it’s hard to draw conclusions from the mass of seemingly contradictory data about him. ‘willowthewisp’ just published a useful list of some of them.

I venture to suggest that these are among the main factual matters about him that we simply cannot ignore, in building up ‘The Murat Jigsaw Puzzle’:

1 On Monday 30 April 2007, Murat was summoned by someone to Praia da Luz

2 He and others gave accounts of who summoned him and why, but these were vague and contradictory

3 On Tuesday 1 May he flew out to Portugal at 7.00am

4 Whatever he really did on 1, 2, and 3 May in Praia da Luz, when first questioned by the PJ about his movements on those three days, he gave a wholly false story (“Murat’s 17 Lies”)

5 He became an interpreter for the PJ under mysterious circumstances that are far from clear, even after a few dozen posts on this thread about them

6 His conduct during his interpretation of witness statements was so unusual and concerning that Inspector Varanda wrote an urgent report about him to Goncalo Amaral. Soon after, he was removed from the investigation

7 So-called ‘profilers’ from MI5 and the British police and security services told Amaral that Robert Murat fitted the profile of the likely abductor 90%. Amaral took this into account when arresting Murat on 15 May [source: Amaral’s book]

8 There is a highly credible inference that on Sunday 13 May when Det Chief Supt Bob Small of Leicestershire Police and members of Control Risks Group spoke to Jane Tanner that they told her to identify Murat as the mam she said she had seen carrying a child at about 9.15pm on 3 May [source: Amaral’s book]

9 Later that same day Tanner saw Murat walk past a police van in which she was sitting and said she was ‘adamant’ that Murat was the man she’d seen carrying a child 10 days earlier [source: Amara’s book]

10 Murat was arrested on 15 May and made a formal suspect

11 Within 24 hours of Murat being made a suspect, Martin Smith decided to tell the police that he and his family had seen a man carrying a child on 3 May but, he was adamant that that man was NOT Robert Murat

12 Within 48 hours of Murat’s arrest, Rachael Oldfield, Russell O’Brien and Fiona Payne had each made statements to the PJ claiming that they had seen Murat hanging around near the Ocean Club in the late evening of 3 May

13 On 10 and 11 July Murat was interviewed by the PJ again after they had analysed his mobile ‘phone. Confronted with clear evidence that he had lied to them on 15 May, Murat claimed he had been ‘too tired’ to tell the truth when first questioned. He now changed his story in at least 17 material respects (“Murat’s 17 Lies”)

14 The PJ’s capture of two ’phone calls between him and Murat’s aunt and uncle, the Eveleighs and Martin Brunt suggested Brunt might have been previously acquainted with the Murat family

15 Murat’s mother ran an ‘information stall’ in Praia da Luz in the early days of the enquiry

16 Several lines of evidence suggested Murta had an unhealthy interest in sex: two credible witness statements, his own admission, and his failure to explain encrypted material on his computer

17 On 13 November 2007 he and his lawyer Francisco Pagarete met with McCann Team members Brian Kennedy (head of their private investigation) and Freemason Edward Smethurst (their co-ordinating lawyer) at the Eveleighs house. When news of this meeting leaked out in the Portuguese press, Brian Kennedy said that he’d flown to Portugal to ‘offer Murat a job looking for Madeleine’. This claim wholly lacked credibility and suggested that the meeting was about something very different

18 In early 2008, Murat was awarded £600,000-plus compensation in a case that was settled out of court
19 Murat had had 'several meetings' with Martin Smith during the period 2005-2007 and clearly knew serial paedophile Sir Clement Freud. He was also friends with Sergei Malinka who wiped his hard drive so the police could not trace what was on it.
20 Hairs of the same haplotype as Murat and Jane Tanner were found at the holiday apartment in which Wojchiech Krokowski, another (temporary) fall guy, was staying.

I would suggest from the above that there are indications that:

A He had been despatched to Portugal, at least in part, so that he could act as a translator in the early days, and

B He was deliberately made the ‘fall guy’ or ‘patsy’ under orders from a very high level within the British government.

Also, when considering the role of the security services in this case, let’s not forget what MI5 eventually had to admit to over the Kincora Boys Home scandal in Northern Ireland.

They set up cameras in the home to watch grown men sexually abusing boys to satisfy their perverted lusts, simply in order to blackmail those ‘grown men’ into carrying out their purposes.

Never underestimate the wickedness of British security services nor the extreme lengths they are prepared to go to, to cover up establishment crimes.

Finally. ‘willowthewisp’ rightly reminded us of Gerry McCann’s famous quote: “Confusion is good”.

Here are his actual words, uttered on 24 August 2007 in an interview on Scottish TV:

“And, in fact, one of the slight positives in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not”.

What we know about Murat is certainly confusing. But the more pieces we can put together of ‘The Murat Jigsaw Puzzle’, the clearer the whole picture will become.

by sallypelt 16.08.16 15:10

This is a Google translation part of an article that appeared in Corrieo da Manha. dated 21.05.07, regarding Genaro Gonzalez

The business, with nearly 50 years, "speaks fluent Italian," it is dark and of medium height, describes the CM who see stop for lunch "a few times" in Lagos, Costa Vicentina, where he runs a real estate business. Genaro mediates the sale of houses, apartments and villas, as well as partnership with Robert and Michaela, based in this house and now investigated by PJ.

Genaro Gonzalez spoke yesterday to the CM from Huelva, Spain, and began by saying that he had "the certainty of belonging to this promoter." It is "a group with a lot of business" but guarantees not know Michaela and Robert. The Romigen was established in April last year and offers via the website, your unique fashion services - "100% commission free". Is this "a simple way to advertise real estate to potential buyers" and contribute to "direct negotiations".

Genaro Gonzalez will not be in this phase suspect any connection to the crime, but "all links to Robert Murat are being taken into account", found the CM. And the PJ inspectors insist on the relationship of this trio partners with Sergey Malinka, the Russian who have designed the web page of the real estate company.

Malinka guarantees the CM that the relationship with Robert Murat is "just business", but the site of Romigen is active since 6 April last year, after the Russian having created. And on the night of the kidnapping, on 3 May, nearly a year and a month later was caught connect first to the villa and then the mother of the suspect and English only defendant in the case of the kidnapping of little Maddie McCann.

Murat told the PJ not remember at least one phone call, which still made up more suspicious to inspectors, who last Wednesday questioned for more than four hours. Also Robert Murat was compromised by his behavior after the crime, after the PJ having caught trying to fabricate an alibi with friends. The final version of English is that spent the night of the kidnapping with his mother, a situation that confirmed.

After being reported that Murat was seen by witnesses near the Ocean Club resort just before Maddie be taken, the friend and his spokesman Tuck Price assured yesterday the CM that "this is not true. PJ showed people photographs of him interviewed but no one saw Robert the night of the crime. "

I fould this bit interesting: Genaro Gonzalez spoke yesterday to the CM from Huelva, Spain Huelva, Spain? ANOTHER coincidence? The McCann saga seems to have more than its fair share of them.

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by **sharonl** 16.08.16 18:21

BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

On the face of it, It certainly does seem that way, but then, if we look more closely, there was no evidence against Murat. After all, he did not kidnap Madeleine and there was no way that the PJ or anyone else could prove that he did. Murat knew that he was safe, even more so when Smith came along to get him off the hook. So is it possible that Murat agreed to be a temporary suspect in return for a large sum from the press who got a good selling story out of all this? If he really was a scapegoat, why did his mother set up a stall asking for people to pass on information to her instead of going to the police? Why has Murat always maintained that Madeleine was abducted? Why the inconsistencies in his statements? Why was he snooping around and asking pertinent questions at the police station? Murat has said a lot of things like he was a scapegoat, he was going to sue Jane Tanner, but were these quotes just for our ears and to distance himself from the McCanns and their friends?

by **Tony Bennett** 16.08.16 19:00

sharonl wrote:
On the face of it, It certainly does seem that way, but then, if we look more closely, there was no evidence against Murat. After all, he did not kidnap Madeleine and there was no way that the PJ or anyone else could prove that he did.  Murat knew that he was safe, even more so when Smith came along to get him off the hook.

So is it possible that Murat agreed to be a temporary suspect in return for a large sum from the press who got a good selling story out of all this?

Looks like that could have been a big part of the deal.

If he really was a scapegoat, why did his mother set up a stall asking for people to pass on information to her instead of going to the police?

Because Murat told her to? He was also perhaps instrumental in getting Mrs Fenn to make up stories? - think of his conversation to a GNR officer in the early days, you can bet the purpose of that exchange was to get the police to talk to Mrs Fenn.

Why has Murat always maintained that Madeleine was abducted?

Because he's been told to?

Why the inconsistencies in his statements?

Frankly, these were not inconsistencies, these were flat contradiction - lies in other words - to cover up what he was REALLY doing on the Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of that week. So what WAS he really up to those few days?

Why was he snooping around and asking pertinent questions at the police station?

He was under instructions from those higher up the food chain?

Murat has said a lot of things like he was a scapegoat, he was going to sue Jane Tanner, but were these quotes just for our ears and to distance himself from the McCanns and their friends?

All part of the charade - to influence public perceptions?

by Guest 16.08.16 20:34

So cutting out all the uncertainty, what's left to consider?

A three year old child, Madeleine, vanishes.

The police are called on the night of 3rd May.

The GNR and PJ are welcomed at the crime scene by immediate claims of abduction and paedophilia.

Police are presented with a hand-written timeline for the night [translated by whom is unknown] and Jane Tanner tells of her sighting.

A search is organised which continues until the early hours of 4th May without success.

Police ask for photograph of Madeleine for identification purposes. After much buggering about the police are given an outdated image despite the parent's camera having a perfect image of her taken at the Ocean Club playground and/or swimming pool.

Police tell group they must not contact the press. Tapas group ignore the instruction and contact UK press during the night and early morning of 3rd/4th May.

A local man, Robert Murat, turns up offering his services as translator/interpreter at either the crime scene on the night of the 3rd/4th or the police station on the morning of 4th May - depending which version you read.

Within hours/days, an inordinate number of UK officials arrive in Praia da Luz. UK police, lawyers, diplomatic staff (including the ambassador), the CEOP etc.

Within a very short period of time Robert Murat is suspected of involvement in child's disappearance which rapidly leads to his being made an arguido and subject to full investigation by the police.

The group of friends suddenly decide that it could have been this man, Robert Murat, that Jane Tanner saw outside the McCanns apartment carrying a child on the night of 3rd May.

Focus on Robert Murat rapidly gains speed.

The investigation into Robert Murat extends to the neighbouring regions of Sagres and Burgau.

The name Robert Murat is attracting much media attention for which he is later compensated by a huge out of court settlement.

Meanwhile the McCanns are entertaining friends and relations at the expense of Warners Holidays and travelling across Europe/North Africa on some awareness campaign - all the time claiming abduction and emphasizing a paedophile/child trafficking connection.

Then came Eddie the EVRD and Keela the bloodhound - ooops!

The PJ continued to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann whilst the force of the UK establishment did everything to prevent the truth from coming out.

Robert Murat has served a purpose - he's diverted attention away from Madeleine's parents and left a fishy pong and the biggest f-up in history. Well, almost!

by Guest 16.08.16 20:51

sharonl wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

On the face of it, It certainly does seem that way, but then, if we look more closely, there was no evidence against Murat. After all, he did not kidnap Madeleine and there was no way that the PJ or anyone else could prove that he did. Murat knew that he was safe, even more so when Smith came along to get him off the hook. So is it possible that Murat agreed to be a temporary suspect in return for a large sum from the press who got a good selling story out of all this? If he really was a scapegoat, why did his mother set up a stall asking for people to pass on information to her instead of going to the police? Why has Murat always maintained that Madeleine was abducted? Why the inconsistencies in his statements? Why was he snooping around and asking pertinent questions at the police station? Murat has said a lot of things like he was a scapegoat, he was going to sue Jane Tanner, but were these quotes just for our ears and to distance himself from the McCanns and their friends?

Apropos of the Smith sighting, the Tanner sighting and any other blooming sighting, I've said before and I will say again - there is no way that anyone would carry the body of a lifeless child around the streets at around 10:00 pm.

The notion is too stupid for words.

by Guest 16.08.16 21:45

Verdi wrote:
sharonl wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

On the face of it, It certainly does seem that way, but then, if we look more closely, there was no evidence against Murat. After all, he did not kidnap Madeleine and there was no way that the PJ or anyone else could prove that he did. Murat knew that he was safe, even more so when Smith came along to get him off the hook. So is it possible that Murat agreed to be a temporary suspect in return for a large sum from the press who got a good selling story out of all this? If he really was a scapegoat, why did his mother set up a stall asking for people to pass on information to her instead of going to the police? Why has Murat always maintained that Madeleine was abducted? Why the inconsistencies in his statements? Why was he snooping around and asking pertinent questions at the police station? Murat has said a lot of things like he was a scapegoat, he was going to sue Jane Tanner, but were these quotes just for our ears and to distance himself from the McCanns and their friends?
Apropos of the Smith sighting, the Tanner sighting and any other blooming sighting, I've said before and I will say again - there is no way that anyone would carry the body of a lifeless child around the streets at around 10:00 pm.

The notion is too stupid for words.

Tad of common sense there. Well done!

by Guest 16.08.16 23:55

The PJ investigation and the UK establishment's interference were running concurrently, certainly during the summer of 2007. The PJ were unfortunately handicapped by a lack of knowledge about what what going on behind the scenes, so to speak, the UK establishment however had the advantage in so far as they knew exactly what was going on with the PJ investigation.

Against hidden agendas, the PJ however continued to try and solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, with Robert Murat off the radar the focus started to turn towards the McCanns - then came Eddie the EVRD and Keela the bloodhound.

Eddie and Keela didn't speak abduction or paedophilia, they spoke of cadavar and blood which seriously compromised the UK establishments position. Samples harvested were sent to UK forensic laboratories for analysis - from all the samples processed not one turned-up a positive result to advance the PJ's investigation but the damage was done - Eddie and Keela couldn't be so easily dismissed.

Now what do we do? I know - get rid of that nuisance case coordinator, get the McCanns back to the UK, scale back the PJ investigation and then, after an acceptable lapse of time, archive the case as unsolved to be re-opened if further tangible evidence becomes available.

With no official force investigating the case, or as the McCanns would paraphrase - no one proactively searching for their daughter, the campaign was taken over by a string of dubious private detectives with nothing to gain but a fat bank balance. Then along comes Operation Grange, the quintessential ingredient assigned to review, re-investigate and solve the mystery of Madeleine McCanns disappearance. So five + years later and no further forward with talk of winding down Operation Grange in the foreseeable future. There you have it..

PJ legitimate investigation v. UK establishment illegitimate operations.

However it was orchestrated, by whom when and where, is a matter of conjecture but one thing is for sure - Robert Murat played his part to perfection. Through his cooperation (self sacrifice?) the UK establishment was able to lead the PJ into an extravagant diversion, chasing fabricated intelligence and so the PJ failed to accomplish their goal - to unravel the mystery of Madeleine McCann.

by **Tony Bennett** 17.08.16 0:08

Verdi wrote:...one thing is for sure - Robert Murat played his part to perfection. Through his cooperation (self sacrifice?) the UK establishment was able to lead the PJ into an extravagant diversion, chasing fabricated intelligence and so the PJ failed to accomplish their goal - to unravel the mystery of Madeleine McCann.

And at what precise moment did Amaral and his team decide to arrest Murat and make him a suspect?

It was the moment that Murat walked past a police van, late on Sunday 13 May.

Inside that van was Jane Tanner, who had been briefed earlier that day by Detective Chief Superintendent Bob Small of Leicestershire Police, and two members of Control Risks Group.

Did Small tell Tanner to identify Murat?

Did Murat actually know he was going to be identified? He breezed into his arguido interview without calling for his solicitor, didn't he?

What a game, what theatre, what play-acting, all played out in public in the mass media, for consumption by billions of people who all know the name and face of Madeleine McCann.

As Kate McCann would often say of how 'well' husband Gerry did on TV: "Another great performance"

by Guest 17.08.16 0:31

I meant to say also, the reasons given for Murat becoming a suspect I always thought to be rather flimsy. Some UK journalist (an associate of Clarence Mitchell) who thought he behaved suspiciously and a load of garbled contradictory stories spread abroad by the Tapas group and assorted adherents like Charlotte Pennington, who at some stage said she saw Murat lurking around the Ocean Club reception on the night of 3rd May? Oh - and he lived a few yards from where Madeleine was abducted (cough!).

Hardly convincing criteria for suspecting someone of being involved in the disappearance of a three year old child.

by MayMuse 17.08.16 8:58

I think that "lady" journalist was the same one who reported in the Holly & Jessica murder by Ian Huntley, forget her name and stand to be corrected.

Either way, the media in the beginning got it very very wrong; always baffled that those well travelled journo's took the McCanns story verbatim!

by Guest 17.08.16 11:31

MayMuse wrote:I think that "lady" journalist was the same one who reported in the Holly & Jessica murder by Ian Huntley, forget her name and stand to be corrected.

Either way, the media in the beginning got it very very wrong; always baffled that those well travelled journo's took the McCanns story verbatim!

It was Ms Lori Campbell of the Sunday Mirror, she first reported Robert Murat's suspicious behaviour to Leicestershire police on the 6th May, 2007 I believe. She was later interviewed by Ian Woods of Sky News on 14th May 2007 [a journalist interviewing a journalist, how ironic is that] - this is the transcript..

Lori Campbell: I was so suspicious by the Monday that I just felt I had a duty to pass those suspicions on. I spoke to my news desk back in London and then they said they thought that that was the right thing to do.

Ian Woods: Now, let's discuss why we were a little suspicious of him, because your suspicions were aroused first of all and you shared those suspicions with me. I then talked to him, investigated it, tried to find out whether his story was true and I have to say I came back and said his story checked out. What first of all made you suspicious of the fact that he was spending so much time around the scene?

LC: It was just very reminiscent of the Soham murders was my first instinct. There was a local guy. He was hanging around the scene an awful lot. He was asking us questions about what was going on in the investigation, maybe trying to find out what we knew and he just seemed to be giving an air that he was authoritative and he was working in an official capacity for the police. And I was just very suspicious about that, that they would take on board a man who was just a local guy. They have many people, I am sure, who speak Portuguese and English. Why would they ask him to, you know, go into the apartment, speak to the family and have that sort of contact with them?

IW: Now, how co-operative was Robert when you were talking to him, because first of all he wouldn't do any interviews with me. I have asked him to do interviews on camera. He declined and you approached him to do a proper interview and asked his identity and things like that?

LC: Well, he was very vague when I tried to ask about his background. He would chat to me quite openly, but he wouldn't give me his surname. He wouldn't tell me really where he was from, where he lives over here. He wouldn't give me a telephone number for him. And then I asked him what he did for a living. He was very vague. He said he worked for real estate. And I just had a really uneasy feeling about him from day one.

IW: You reported him to who and what was the response?

LC: My first call was to Leicestershire police back in the UK and they took all my details. A detective constable called me back and she suggested that I also speak to somebody out here. We didn't really have a police contact last week. So, I called the British Embassy and they said to speak to a policeman on the scene. So, I walked up to a GNR policeman and said, you know, "I've got suspicions about a gentleman who's been near the scene and I'd just like to pass those on." And one of my main suspicions was that he said he was translating witness statements and I asked them if that could be true and they said, "No, that's highly unlikely."

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