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Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

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How did Robert Murat become a PJ translator?

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Total Votes : 26

Was there an MI5 interest in the goings-on in Prala da Luz?

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.08.16 20:35

Verdi wrote:From the comments made by Goncalo Amaral in his book as reproduced up-page, he didn't know Murat nor did his colleague know that Murat was a local resident.  That to me indicates that Murat had not acted as translator/interpreter for the PJ prior to the 4th May 2007.  Besides, he isn't qualified - it might be acceptable to engage the assistance of a local ex-pat to translate informally, say for example on the night of the 3rd/4th May when Madeleine was first reported missing but recording a sworn statement that could be used as evidence in a court of law is a different matter altogether.  It just isn't done!

When some kindly soul offered to assist the McCanns on the night of 3rd, by acting as a go-between, she got a short sharp shrift from the acid tongue of Ms Healy so yes, it's surprising the McCanns didn't question Murat's involvement - especially as they tried to implicate him in Madeleine's disappearance.

A bit off the scale of reasoned thinking but considering his alleged connection with journalists, his acting translator/interpreter for the PJ, his extensive local connections - is it possible he could have been working indirectly for the McCanns, or at least working with the global conspiracy?  Was he the super-grass circumventing the official secrecy laws, supplying information about the investigation to the McCanns, the media, the UK police?  He is a jack of all trades after all - the sort of person at the other end of the phone when you need to 'get a man in'.  What better way to take the heat off than have him identified as a suspect?

I'm earning my reputation here so expect to be pelted with rotten tomatoes, stale buns and mouldy cabbage.  It's all in a good cause.
I have given you a reputation point. One is only allowed to give one at a time, however.

In addition to your speculations, here's another one. 

Robert Murat, Clarence Mitchell and Brian Kennedy all work for MI5 and/or other arms of the British security services, whether directly or indirectly employed by them.

AND Martin Brunt. Remember his cosy 'phone chat to the Eveleighs and Murat? - and Brunt's offer to place SKY News's legal services at Murat's disposal?    

Was there an MI5 interest in the goings-on in Prala da Luz?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.08.16 20:51

aquila wrote:Amaral was in charge of a major investigation. He was in charge of who was selected as an interpreter - please don't mix up translator with interpreter.

The PJ needs to verify the credentials of Murat and why he was chosen.
OK, here's a scenario.

At the Ocean Club, about 9am to 10am, Friday 4 May:

Murat (to PJ Officer): Hi, my name's Robert Murat, I'm bilingual, Stephen Carpenter just told me about the terrible thing that happened to that young British girl. Do you know, I've got a daughter the same age. I would love to be able to help. Do you need any help with translating?

Aquila (in background, whispering): You mean interpreting?

Murat (to Aquila): Yes boss, interpreting.

PJ Officer: Obrigado, Snr Murat. Are you a registered translator?  

Aquila (louder than before): Interpreter!

Murat: Yes indeed I am! I did a lot of work for Norfolk Police as a trans oops!  interpreter. If you ring Bill Henderson at the British Embassy, he'll confirm my credentials.

PJ Officer to Henderson: Do you know Murat?

Henderson to PJ Officer: Oh yes. How can I help? 

PJ Officer: Is he a registered tr... interpreter?

Henderson (sounding like dog on the Churchill ad): Oh yes! Oh yes! Jolly good chap. First class tr.. interpreter. I cannot recommend him too highly.

PJ Officer to Murat: When can you start? We need to talk to the parents and their friends and find out what really happened.

Murat: Right away. I'm, er, not working at the moment, just here on holiday, yer know, got all the time in the world.

LATER: Murat begins, um, interpreting

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by aquila on 15.08.16 21:02

Tony Bennett wrote:
aquila wrote:Amaral was in charge of a major investigation. He was in charge of who was selected as an interpreter - please don't mix up translator with interpreter.

The PJ needs to verify the credentials of Murat and why he was chosen.
OK, here's a scenario.

At the Ocean Club, about 9am to 10am, Friday 4 May:

Murat (to PJ Officer): Hi, my name's Robert Murat, I'm bilingual, Stephen Carpenter just told me about the terrible thing that happened to that young British girl. Do you know, I've got a daughter the same age. I would love to be able to help. Do you need any help with translating?

Aquila (in background, whispering): You mean interpreting?

Murat (to Aquila): Yes boss, interpreting.

PJ Officer: Obrigado, Snr Murat. Are you a registered translator?  

Aquila (louder than before): Interpreter!

Murat: Yes indeed I am! I did a lot of work for Norfolk Police as a trans oops!  interpreter. If you ring Bill Henderson at the British Embassy, he'll confirm my credentials.

PJ Officer to Henderson: Do you know Murat?

Henderson to PJ Officer: Oh yes. How can I help? 

PJ Officer: Is he a registered tr... interpreter?

Henderson (sounding like dog on the Churchill ad): Oh yes! Oh yes! Jolly good chap. First class tr.. interpreter. I cannot recommend him too highly.

PJ Officer to Murat: When can you start? We need to talk to the parents and their friends and find out what really happened.

Murat: Right away. I'm, er, not working at the moment, just here on holiday, yer know, got all the time in the world.

LATER: Murat begins, um, interpreting
Sorry, but as ridiculous although credible as your scenario sounds Tony, I have to discount it based on the fact that Amaral was in charge of the investigation and has made no comment on his selection of Murat as an interpreter.
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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Tony Bennett on 15.08.16 21:59

aquila wrote:
...the fact that Amaral was in charge of the investigation and has made no comment on his selection of Murat as an interpreter.
He doesn't know?

It isn't important?

Did he approve the decision to recruit him?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sharonl on 15.08.16 22:54

If Goncalo Amaral has made no comment on Murat as interpreter or translator, what is chapter 7 of his book all about?

http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/chapter-7.html

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Verdi on 15.08.16 23:22

Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/12/murat-recommended-as-translator-by.html)

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources. After Murat was named a formal suspect, the police went through all translations he had done, checking their accuracy, but no problem was found, according to the same sources. Bill Henderson retired from his diplomatic post and went back to the U.K. in August.

UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me.  Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept.  Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that?  Normally, the police would have a list of  accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognized accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here.  What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Verdi on 15.08.16 23:26

Tony Bennett wrote:
aquila wrote:Amaral was in charge of a major investigation. He was in charge of who was selected as an interpreter - please don't mix up translator with interpreter.

The PJ needs to verify the credentials of Murat and why he was chosen.
OK, here's a scenario.

At the Ocean Club, about 9am to 10am, Friday 4 May:

Murat (to PJ Officer): Hi, my name's Robert Murat, I'm bilingual, Stephen Carpenter just told me about the terrible thing that happened to that young British girl. Do you know, I've got a daughter the same age. I would love to be able to help. Do you need any help with translating?

Aquila (in background, whispering): You mean interpreting?

Murat (to Aquila): Yes boss, interpreting.

PJ Officer: Obrigado, Snr Murat. Are you a registered translator?  

Aquila (louder than before): Interpreter!

Murat: Yes indeed I am! I did a lot of work for Norfolk Police as a trans oops!  interpreter. If you ring Bill Henderson at the British Embassy, he'll confirm my credentials.

PJ Officer to Henderson: Do you know Murat?

Henderson to PJ Officer: Oh yes. How can I help? 

PJ Officer: Is he a registered tr... interpreter?

Henderson (sounding like dog on the Churchill ad): Oh yes! Oh yes! Jolly good chap. First class tr.. interpreter. I cannot recommend him too highly.

PJ Officer to Murat: When can you start? We need to talk to the parents and their friends and find out what really happened.

Murat: Right away. I'm, er, not working at the moment, just here on holiday, yer know, got all the time in the world.

LATER: Murat begins, um, interpreting
rotfl  Where was Jane Tanner all this time - hiding behind a door on a recognition mission?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sharonl on 15.08.16 23:33

Wiki - definition of an interpreter   

1. One who translates orally from one language into another.

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.08.16 8:44

Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/12/murat-recommended-as-translator-by.html)

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources.

[SNIPPED] UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me.  Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept.  Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that?  Normally, the police would have a list of  accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognised accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here.  What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?
@ Verdi     The article I linked to was written by Paulo Reis, a journalist who did a huge amount of research in the early days (2007/8) but tjhen abandoned his interest in the case, understandably so as his workload was heavily skewed on writing articles on the case and he was neglecting to cover other stories. I think any member of guest who was 'on the case' what back then would recognise Reis as a trustworthy source. He is Portuguese. I am sure from what he wrote that he had a PJ officer briefing him and that is why I tend to trust his account of Murat being vouchsafed by the British Embassy. And that would tend to explain why Amaral had never heard of him.

Whilst we in the U.K. insist on accredited translators and interpreters, I am not sure what the position is in Portugal.

I am reminded of my mother's situation. After bringing up my brother and I as a homemaker, taking in a few paying guests from time to time, she eventually found a nice little job acting as an interpreter for the police in Serbo-Croat, German and sometimes Slovenian in Bournemouth. Bournemouth had become a major centre for teaching English to foreign students by the late 1960s, and this brought with it thousands of visitors from European countries, anxious to learn English. Before the days of accreditation, the police contacted my mother to interpret for some of these foreign students, some of whom had an unhappy tendency to go round the town shoplifting or causing criminal damage. She carried on doing this work until she was 82, sometimes being woken in the middle of the night to attend an interview under caution. Regulations then came in which meant that interpreters had to go on courses, pass a test and get accredited by some agency or other, so at that point my mother was forced to give up. She got a lovely letter from the Chairman of the Bench in Bournemouth which basically said she was bitterly disappointed that the dead hand of inflexible bureaucracy had deprived the Bournemouth bench of their best interpreter.

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sallypelt on 16.08.16 11:00

I have, for quite a while, been thinking that this cover-up - and I have no doubt, whatsoever, that there IS a cover-up - came from a much higher authority, and not from the McCanns themselves. I also believe that the T7 had been instructed to go along with a the cover-up, for whatever reason. Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the  McCanns or any other member of the group?

If this is the case, it leaves the 20 million dollar question (I'm taking inflation into account:spin: ) WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY COVERING UP?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by aquila on 16.08.16 11:33

It is still not clear who engaged Murat as an interpreter.

I believe that once there is factual evidence then there will be clarity and hopefully a big stride into securing justice for Madeleine McCann.
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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by BlueBag on 16.08.16 11:40

sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.
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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Verdi on 16.08.16 12:06

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/12/murat-recommended-as-translator-by.html)

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources.

[SNIPPED] UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me.  Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept.  Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that?  Normally, the police would have a list of  accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognised accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here.  What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?
@ Verdi     The article I linked to was written by Paulo Reis, a journalist who did a huge amount of research in the early days (2007/8) but tjhen abandoned his interest in the case, understandably so as his workload was heavily skewed on writing articles on the case and he was neglecting to cover other stories. I think any member of guest who was 'on the case' what back then would recognise Reis as a trustworthy source. He is Portuguese. I am sure from what he wrote that he had a PJ officer briefing him and that is why I tend to trust his account of Murat being vouchsafed by the British Embassy. And that would tend to explain why Amaral had never heard of him.

Whilst we in the U.K. insist on accredited translators and interpreters, I am not sure what the position is in Portugal.

I am reminded of my mother's situation. After bringing up my brother and I as a homemaker, taking in a few paying guests from time to time, she eventually found a nice little job acting as an interpreter for the police in Serbo-Croat, German and sometimes Slovenian in Bournemouth. Bournemouth had become a major centre for teaching English to foreign students by the late 1960s, and this brought with it thousands of visitors from European countries, anxious to learn English. Before the days of accreditation, the police contacted my mother to interpret for some of these foreign students, some of whom had an unhappy tendency to go round the town shoplifting or causing criminal damage. She carried on doing this work until she was 82, sometimes being woken in the middle of the night to attend an interview under caution. Regulations then came in which meant that interpreters had to go on courses, pass a test and get accredited by some agency or other, so at that point my mother was forced to give up. She got a lovely letter from the Chairman of the Bench in Bournemouth which basically said she was bitterly disappointed that the dead hand of inflexible bureaucracy had deprived the Bournemouth bench of their best interpreter.
Thank you - what a delightful legacy to your mother's work.  First hand knowledge is always such a benefit, I will hold further comments on the subject in abeyance, at least until further information may be uncovered about Robert Murat's past.

I've never seen any reason to doubt the integrity of Paulo Reis, from memory I always thought his writing to be honest, well balanced and worthy of attention - no doubt my personal reputation management team that haunts cyberspace will have some counter argument to suggest otherwise :)

I've been looking at mi5.gov.uk - no doubts they have 'intelligence operatives' posted everywhere.  They employ approximately 4,000 staff +  several hundred staff on secondment or attachment from other government departments and agencies.  I quote..

"Staff roles cover a number of areas including investigations, translation, data analysis, technology, surveillance, communications, information management, protective security, administration, building services and catering."

I think the whole organisation can be summed up in these few words in response to the question 'do you need any special qualifications to join MI5', taken from their website..

"Agents are people who work as "Covert Human Intelligence Sources" to supply us with secret intelligence. There is no formal application process - in fact it tends to be us that makes the initial approach."

I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on  !

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sallypelt on 16.08.16 12:21

Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Tony Bennet wrote:
But elsewhere…

(Source: http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/12/murat-recommended-as-translator-by.html)

…we find an alternative explanation for how Robert Murat became a translator in Portugal in connection with Madeleine’s disappearance:

QUOTE

Staff from Bill Henderson’s office suggested the name of Robert Murat as a reliable translator who could be used in the police inquiry, in the days following Madeleine McCann disappearance. Murat was already known among diplomatic staff, as he had letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police, where he worked for Bernard Matthews, one of the largest poultry farm companies in UK, which employs hundreds of Portuguese workers. The fact that Robert Murat has acted, before, as translator for Norfolk Police, and the recommendation issued by Bill Henderson’s office, at the time the British consul in Algarve, took police to accept the suggestion, according to PJ [Portuguese Police] sources.

[SNIPPED] UNQUOTE
The link doesn't work for me.  Is/was it a reliable source?

Letters of recommendation from Norfolk Police - that's an interesting concept.  Do the police usually issue letters of recommendation for unqualified translators/interpreters, why would they do that?  Normally, the police would have a list of  accredited translators/interpreters to call on when necessary - not the other way round.

If someone is a recognised accredited translator/interpreter they would have a certificate to verify their qualifications - not a letter of recommendation, which quite frankly when traversing across Europe could have been written by anyone.

Something doesn't add up here.  What was Murat's job at Matthews farm I wonder - chief turkey stuffer?
@ Verdi     The article I linked to was written by Paulo Reis, a journalist who did a huge amount of research in the early days (2007/8) but tjhen abandoned his interest in the case, understandably so as his workload was heavily skewed on writing articles on the case and he was neglecting to cover other stories. I think any member of guest who was 'on the case' what back then would recognise Reis as a trustworthy source. He is Portuguese. I am sure from what he wrote that he had a PJ officer briefing him and that is why I tend to trust his account of Murat being vouchsafed by the British Embassy. And that would tend to explain why Amaral had never heard of him.

Whilst we in the U.K. insist on accredited translators and interpreters, I am not sure what the position is in Portugal.

I am reminded of my mother's situation. After bringing up my brother and I as a homemaker, taking in a few paying guests from time to time, she eventually found a nice little job acting as an interpreter for the police in Serbo-Croat, German and sometimes Slovenian in Bournemouth. Bournemouth had become a major centre for teaching English to foreign students by the late 1960s, and this brought with it thousands of visitors from European countries, anxious to learn English. Before the days of accreditation, the police contacted my mother to interpret for some of these foreign students, some of whom had an unhappy tendency to go round the town shoplifting or causing criminal damage. She carried on doing this work until she was 82, sometimes being woken in the middle of the night to attend an interview under caution. Regulations then came in which meant that interpreters had to go on courses, pass a test and get accredited by some agency or other, so at that point my mother was forced to give up. She got a lovely letter from the Chairman of the Bench in Bournemouth which basically said she was bitterly disappointed that the dead hand of inflexible bureaucracy had deprived the Bournemouth bench of their best interpreter.
Thank you - what a delightful legacy to your mother's work.  First hand knowledge is always such a benefit, I will hold further comments on the subject in abeyance, at least until further information may be uncovered about Robert Murat's past.

I've never seen any reason to doubt the integrity of Paulo Reis, from memory I always thought his writing to be honest, well balanced and worthy of attention - no doubt my personal reputation management team that haunts cyberspace will have some counter argument to suggest otherwise :)

I've been looking at mi5.gov.uk - no doubts they have 'intelligence operatives' posted everywhere.  They employ approximately 4,000 staff +  several hundred staff on secondment or attachment from other government departments and agencies.  I quote..

"Staff roles cover a number of areas including investigations, translation, data analysis, technology, surveillance, communications, information management, protective security, administration, building services and catering."

I think the whole organisation can be summed up in these few words in response to the question 'do you need any special qualifications to join MI5', taken from their website..

"Agents are people who work as "Covert Human Intelligence Sources" to supply us with secret intelligence. There is no formal application process - in fact it tends to be us that makes the initial approach."

I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on  !
Verdi wrote "I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on"

Yes, I feel the same way. I wouldn't want to be found zipped up in a bag, in a bath. Self imposed, of course!  liar

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Verdi on 16.08.16 12:21

BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote: Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.
I've never suspected the McCanns or any of their Tapas friends for calling-in Murat but I think it depends on ones definition of a higher authority.  I doubt if Murat had direct contact with the Home Office but I can quite believe he was seconded by a local link to the diplomatic corps operating within Portugal.  Although the British embassy is in Lisbon there is a vice-consulate in Portimao - only a 30km drive from Praia da Luz;  Murat being a local with extensive contacts, who speaks fluent Portuguese, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he would be acquainted consulate staff.

Not forgetting the unprecedented prompt arrival of the ambassador and consulate staff at Praia da Luz after Madeleine was reported missing.

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Verdi on 16.08.16 12:34

sallypelt wrote:Verdi wrote "I think I'll be looking over my shoulder from here on"

Yes, I feel the same way. I wouldn't want to be found zipped up in a bag, in a bath. Self imposed, of course!  liar
big grin

MI5 website makes for some interesting reading.  Their main objective ostensibly being national security but just how far does their definition of protecting the nation extend?

There has been strong rumours (well founded in some respects I believe) that MI5 has been complicit with the national/international cover-up of wide spread child abuse.  With such a reputation how can they be trusted to serve the interests of the British public.  I doubt if anything could ever be proven as regards their true position as information concerning their activities is either hidden in the vaults under lock and key for eternity or burned at the stake.

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sallypelt on 16.08.16 12:42

And wasn't it Murat who said  'this is the biggest fuck up on the planet'?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Verdi on 16.08.16 12:54

Kate McCann however tells another story - square brackets my small contribution..

Friday 4th May 2007

Steve Carpenter returned with a man who had offered his assistance. He was, he’d told Steve, bilingual in English and Portuguese and could maybe assist with interpreting. I was grateful for any help we could get [having just got David Payne to get rid of the pushy woman with credentials]. This man was in his thirties, wore glasses and there was something unusual about one of his eyes – a squint, I thought at the time (I have since been told he is blind in one eye). He seemed very personable and was happy to be of service.

When one of the GNR officers came over to request more details about Madeleine and any distinguishing features she had, this man stepped in to translate.

I was holding a photograph of Madeleine, which he asked to see. As he studied it, he told me about his daughter back in England who was the same age, and who, he said, looked just like Madeleine. I was a little irked by this. In the circumstances, it seemed rather tactless, even if he was simply trying to empathize. I didn’t think his daughter could possibly be as beautiful as Madeleine – though of course, as her mum, I didn’t think any other little girl could be as beautiful as Madeleine.

When he had finished translating, he turned and began to walk briskly away. Realizing I didn’t know his name, I caught up with him and asked.

‘Robert,’ he said.

‘Thank you, Robert,’ I said.

[goodness me, this is like a game of consequences]

It was about 10am by the time a couple of PJ officers turned up.....

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sallypelt on 16.08.16 13:01

"Robert, who went to school in Portugal, says: “I have always enjoyed helping people, it’s who I am”. In England, where he lived for 15 years and worked as a car salesman, he also cooperated with the British authorities. “I worked as a translator, for the police and at the court.” Robert goes on to say"

The above paragraph is taken from Steelmagnolia's link: http://steelmagnolia-steelmagnolia.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/enigma-of-jennifer-anne-murat.html


R.I.P Dani.

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by April28th on 16.08.16 13:29

Interesting language in the situation as recalled by Jorge Manuel Rocha da Silva;

'Robert informed him that he was to be an interpreter for the police, and even if he did not want to be there was nothing he could do to avoid, that by law he could not refuse this. And this was the reason he gave for having to postpone some meetings they had planned.'
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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.08.16 13:53

April28th wrote:Interesting language in the situation as recalled by Jorge Manuel Rocha da Silva;

'Robert informed him that he was to be an interpreter for the police, and even if he did not want to be there was nothing he could do to avoid, that by law he could not refuse this. And this was the reason he gave for having to postpone some meetings they had planned.'
Ah! @ April28th  Absolutely superb find, well done. I'd never read that before.

Jorge da Silva was someone Murat claimed to have met several times on 1st, 2nd and 3rd May, mostly in cafes here and there IIRC. Murat claimed that they were discussing his internet website for his proposed new company, 'Romigen'. To put it kindly,  this seemed a most unlikely tale.  

'Romigen' was...

Ro for Robert...

mi for Michaeia...

but no-one ever worked out AFAIK who the 'gen' was

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Ref; Robert Murat

Post by willowthewisp on 16.08.16 13:54

sallypelt wrote:And wasn't it Murat who said  'this is the biggest fuck up on the planet'?
Perhaps this was after,Gezza had to have everything run by him first for approval?
Stephen Carpenter introduces Robert Murat to Gerry for the supposed first time,4th May 2007, Ocean Club apartment,after Murat had spoken to Russel O'Brien 08.30am,who's partner Jane Tanner,later"Identifies Robert Murat as the Abductor of Madeleine McCann",with assistance from UK Police Officer Bob Small,which allowed(JT) an earlier opportunity to pick out(RM)before (JT)was placed in the PJ Surveillance Van,to"Officially Identify"Robert Murat as the Abductor within a Four to Six week period May to June 2007,was this the"Fuck Up"or as below?
Russell O'Brien,Jane Tanner,Fiona Payne had told PJ Police that they had sighted(RM)around the complex at 21.30 hrs 3 May 2007?
Irish Family confirm to Police that,"Smithman" wasn't (RM) seen on 3 May 2007 carrying a child at 22.00 hrs and had met(RM only by sight) prior to Madeleine's disappearance during past Two years?
Robert Murat is placed within his Mothers Home,according to his Computer records during this period and his Mother is his Alibi.
DNA evidence was collected from the Burgeau apartment owned by(RM)relatives that correlate to (RM)(JT) or their offspring?
Was this the same apartment Wojech had stayed in,who was reported to be stalking children miles away from the area by Nuno Lourenco? 
Remember what Gezza said,"Confusion is Good"?
Robert Murat certainly was a busy little Bee collecting the Nectar for the Queen Bee's hive,wasn't he,meeting all these people who are connected to the case?
Meme;Sir Bernard Hogan Howe.
Interpol and the Metropolitan Police Service in 2008 ruled out or could not confirm or Deny"Paedophile Ring"had become involved with the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann?
2016, Three Bungling Burglars,not Tourists are the main suspects to be connected to the disappearance,Remit Abduction of Madeleine McCann who are thought to have involvement in the child's whereabouts,after Six Years and Sixteen Million pounds,what a summery to conclude an Investigation for Scotland Yard's Finest?

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sallypelt on 16.08.16 14:20

Tony Bennett wrote:
April28th wrote:Interesting language in the situation as recalled by Jorge Manuel Rocha da Silva;

'Robert informed him that he was to be an interpreter for the police, and even if he did not want to be there was nothing he could do to avoid, that by law he could not refuse this. And this was the reason he gave for having to postpone some meetings they had planned.'
Ah! @ April28th  Absolutely superb find, well done. I'd never read that before.

Jorge da Silva was someone Murat claimed to have met several times on 1st, 2nd and 3rd May, mostly in cafes here and there IIRC. Murat claimed that they were discussing his internet website for his proposed new company, 'Romigen'. To put it kindly,  this seemed a most unlikely tale.  

'Romigen' was...

Ro for Robert...

mi for Michaeia...

but no-one ever worked out AFAIK who the 'gen' was
Could it be Genaro Acosta Gonzales?

This was taken from the link provided below:

 comment below suggests the “gen” in Romigen actually stands for Genaro Acosta Gonzales. A Google search on that name will return a listing at another property company in Portugal Gabino Homes (Google translated to English). There may be no connection between these two companies nor has the comment been verified.

https://missingchild.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/romigen-and-missing-madeleine/

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by Tony Bennett on 16.08.16 14:51

BlueBag wrote:
sallypelt wrote:Was Murat sent to Portugal, at short notice, by a higher authority, and not called by the McCanns or any other member of the group?
That is an interesting thought.

The T7 did try and stitch him up which means he wasn't in with the in crowd.

When trying to evaluate Murat’s role in connection with the reported disappearance of Madeleine McCann, we need to look at the whole picture. Even then it’s hard to draw conclusions from the mass of seemingly contradictory data about him. ‘willowthewisp’ just published a useful list of some of them.

I venture to suggest that these are among the main factual matters about him that we simply cannot ignore, in building up ‘The Murat Jigsaw Puzzle’:

1 On Monday 30 April 2007, Murat was summoned by someone to Praia da Luz

2 He and others gave accounts of who summoned him and why, but these were vague and contradictory

3 On Tuesday 1 May he flew out to Portugal at 7.00am

4 Whatever he really did on 1, 2, and 3 May in Praia da Luz, when first questioned by the PJ about his movements on those three days, he gave a wholly false story (“Murat’s 17 Lies”)    

5 He became an interpreter for the PJ under mysterious circumstances that are far from clear, even after a few dozen posts on this thread about them

6 His conduct during his interpretation of witness statements was so unusual and concerning that Inspector Varanda wrote an urgent report about him to Goncalo Amaral. Soon after, he was removed from the investigation

7 So-called ‘profilers’ from MI5 and the British police and security services told Amaral that Robert Murat fitted the profile of the likely abductor 90%. Amaral took this into account when arresting Murat on 15 May [source: Amaral’s book]

8 There is a highly credible inference that on Sunday 13 May when Det Chief Supt Bob Small of Leicestershire Police and members of Control Risks Group spoke to Jane Tanner that they told her to identify Murat as the mam she said she had seen carrying a child at about 9.15pm on 3 May [source: Amaral’s book]

9 Later that same day Tanner saw Murat walk past a police van in which she was sitting and said she was ‘adamant’ that Murat was the man she’d seen carrying a child 10 days earlier  [source: Amara’s book]      

10 Murat was arrested on 15 May and made a formal suspect

11 Within 24 hours of Murat being made a suspect, Martin Smith decided to tell the police that he and his family had seen a man carrying a child on 3 May but, he was adamant that that man was NOT Robert Murat    

12 Within 48 hours of Murat’s arrest, Rachael Oldfield, Russell O’Brien and Fiona Payne had each made statements to the PJ claiming that they had seen Murat hanging around near the Ocean Club in the late evening of 3 May

13 On 10 and 11 July Murat was interviewed by the PJ again after they had analysed his mobile ‘phone. Confronted with clear evidence that he had lied to them on 15 May, Murat claimed he had been ‘too tired’ to tell the truth when first questioned. He now changed his story in at least 17 material respects (“Murat’s 17 Lies”)

14 The PJ’s capture of two ’phone calls between him and Murat’s aunt and uncle, the Eveleighs and Martin Brunt suggested Brunt might have been previously acquainted with the Murat family

15 Murat’s mother ran an ‘information stall’ in Praia da Luz in the early days of the enquiry   

16 Several lines of evidence suggested Murta had an unhealthy interest in sex: two credible witness statements, his own admission, and his failure to explain encrypted material on his computer

17 On 13 November 2007 he and his lawyer Francisco Pagarete met with McCann Team members Brian Kennedy (head of their private investigation) and Freemason Edward Smethurst (their co-ordinating lawyer) at the Eveleighs house. When news of this meeting leaked out in the Portuguese press, Brian Kennedy said that he’d flown to Portugal to ‘offer Murat a job looking for Madeleine’. This claim wholly lacked credibility and suggested that the meeting was about something very different

18 In early 2008, Murat was awarded £600,000-plus compensation in a case that was settled out of court
19 Murat had had 'several meetings' with Martin Smith during the period 2005-2007 and clearly knew serial paedophile Sir Clement Freud. He was also friends with Sergei Malinka who wiped his hard drive so the police could not trace what was on it.
20 Hairs of the same haplotype as Murat and Jane Tanner were found at the holiday apartment in which Wojchiech Krokowski, another (temporary) fall guy, was staying.   

 

I would suggest from the above that there are indications that:

A He had been despatched to Portugal, at least in part, so that he could act as a translator in the early days, and

B He was deliberately made the ‘fall guy’ or ‘patsy’ under orders from a very high level within the British government.

Also, when considering the role of the security services in this case, let’s not forget what MI5 eventually had to admit to over the Kincora Boys Home scandal in Northern Ireland.

They set up cameras in the home to watch grown men sexually abusing boys to satisfy their perverted lusts, simply in order to blackmail those ‘grown men’ into carrying out their purposes.

Never underestimate the wickedness of British security services nor the extreme lengths they are prepared to go to, to cover up establishment crimes.  

Finally. ‘willowthewisp’ rightly reminded us of Gerry McCann’s famous quote: “Confusion is good”.

Here are his actual words, uttered on 24 August 2007 in an interview on Scottish TV:

 

And, in fact, one of the slight positives in all of this is that there is so much rumour about what did and didn't happen, it's actually very difficult, if you're reading the newspapers, watching TV, to know what is true and what's not”.


What we know about Murat is certainly confusing. But the more pieces we can put together of ‘The Murat Jigsaw Puzzle’, the clearer the whole picture will become.   

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Re: Murat revisted: 2 - How did he become a PJ translator?

Post by sallypelt on 16.08.16 15:10

This is a Google translation part of an article that appeared in Corrieo da Manha. dated 21.05.07, regarding Genaro Gonzalez

 









The business, with nearly 50 years, "speaks fluent Italian," it is dark and of medium height, describes the CM who see stop for lunch "a few times" in Lagos, Costa Vicentina, where he runs a real estate business. Genaro mediates the sale of houses, apartments and villas, as well as partnership with Robert and Michaela, based in this house and now investigated by PJ.



 



Genaro Gonzalez spoke yesterday to the CM from Huelva, Spain, and began by saying that he had "the certainty of belonging to this promoter." It is "a group with a lot of business" but guarantees not know Michaela and Robert. The Romigen was established in April last year and offers via the website, your unique fashion services - "100% commission free". Is this "a simple way to advertise real estate to potential buyers" and contribute to "direct negotiations".



 



Genaro Gonzalez will not be in this phase suspect any connection to the crime, but "all links to Robert Murat are being taken into account", found the CM. And the PJ inspectors insist on the relationship of this trio partners with Sergey Malinka, the Russian who have designed the web page of the real estate company.



 



Malinka guarantees the CM that the relationship with Robert Murat is "just business", but the site of Romigen is active since 6 April last year, after the Russian having created. And on the night of the kidnapping, on 3 May, nearly a year and a month later was caught connect first to the villa and then the mother of the suspect and English only defendant in the case of the kidnapping of little Maddie McCann.



 



Murat told the PJ not remember at least one phone call, which still made up more suspicious to inspectors, who last Wednesday questioned for more than four hours. Also Robert Murat was compromised by his behavior after the crime, after the PJ having caught trying to fabricate an alibi with friends. The final version of English is that spent the night of the kidnapping with his mother, a situation that confirmed.



 

After being reported that Murat was seen by witnesses near the Ocean Club resort just before Maddie be taken, the friend and his spokesman Tuck Price assured yesterday the CM that "this is not true. PJ showed people photographs of him interviewed but no one saw Robert the night of the crime. "






I fould this bit interesting: Genaro Gonzalez spoke yesterday to the CM from Huelva, Spain  Huelva, Spain?  ANOTHER coincidence? The McCann saga seems to have more than its fair share of them.

http://www.cmjornal.pt/exclusivos/detalhe/o-terceiro-amigo-de-murat?





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