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The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

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Dry run

Post by tnb on 09.09.16 0:23

So you wrote all that to agree with me there was no "dry run"?

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by whodunit on 09.09.16 0:25

@tnb wrote:So you wrote all that to agree with me there was no "dry run"?
Most everyone here agrees there was no dry run. Nobody is getting their knickers in a twist over somwething that didn't happen, we're discussing/proving yet another McCann fabrication.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 1:35

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:After you Verdi, you take an hour and I will; which time would you like?
I am not trying to make an issue out of something I don't believe ever happened.
 
I am not of the same ilk as HiDeHo - she far exceeds my level of ability, I would be of no assistance.

I am a rubbish researcher - too easily distracted to stick meticulously to any one subject.

I do not have the time nor the patience to try and fathom what I consider to be a fabricated story-line.

By the way, my post was not directed at you personally.
Really? Then why suggest it to others if you cannot assist? It may be a fabricated story line, yet it's the only "line" we have with the statements so actually can understand the importance to break it down. 
I would happily help in any way I can; I know I'm not as good a researcher as those here but will give it a thorough go. I would find it easier to be given a particular time so have some direction to go on, if those who want to help are given a "time" each from a list that way we are not doubling up?

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by skyrocket on 09.09.16 9:26

@Verdi - I'll be be first one in line to agree with you that the main story line the Tapas 7/9 wants us to believe from their statements is fabricated but within all the incoherent garble, I firmly believe there are some truths to be found. I look to the very first interviews on the 4/5 May, although even here, there is an obvious script, and then to the Rogatory interviews, where despite the script, the length/depth of the interviews are such that even the most polished blagger couldn't help but slip up from time to time. That's the skill of interviewing isn't it - knowing what questions to ask and when to let the 'witness' ramble on, in the hope that slip ups will occur? I look for all the sections of 'errs' and 'umms' - where learnt lines (rather than remembered happenings) have been forgotten and every so often something spills out of their mouths before their brains click in and correct. If more than one of them alludes to something which is then immediately corrected or denied, then I would suggest it is an actual truth. 

Looking through the statements for such occurrences may not be your area of interest but I actually quite enjoy it!

@April28th - haven't time to post on the O'Brien thread so I just wanted to say that your phone ping maps are very interesting (lot of work gone in to them too!).
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by kaz on 09.09.16 10:34

@skyrocket wrote:@MayMuse - good question. Can't be easy for any of them - remembering what they should and shouldn't be saying; what they have and haven't said in past statements. That's the problem with telling porky pies.

Stephen Carpenter was handed an envelope with a letter in it which he was asked to read before saying anything in his April 2008 interview. All he says after reading it is, "yes, that's fine."

Also, Paul Gordon, former 5A occupant intimates in his April 2008 statement that contact from the Mc camp (specifically Brian Kennedy and the Mcs themselves) had made it difficult for him to perhaps say what he wanted, he says, "There are certain times when I feel like a pawn in chess."

Re: the beds in 'Madeleine's" bedroom, if the Paynes were in 5A, I think Dianne could have been using the bed by the window with Lily in the single cot in the same room (Scarlet being in the second cot in the second bedroom, as described by Maria the cleaner). This could be the reason the cot locations is such a touchy subject for both the Mcs.
Good point.
It would certainly have made sense for the McCanns  to offer to exchange their apartment with the extra bed to accommodate Mrs Webster  and would certainly then answer the mystery of the lack of Madeleine's DNA in 5A. But then there is still the problem of the cadaver odour.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 11:54

@kaz wrote:
@skyrocket wrote:@MayMuse - good question. Can't be easy for any of them - remembering what they should and shouldn't be saying; what they have and haven't said in past statements. That's the problem with telling porky pies.

Stephen Carpenter was handed an envelope with a letter in it which he was asked to read before saying anything in his April 2008 interview. All he says after reading it is, "yes, that's fine."

Also, Paul Gordon, former 5A occupant intimates in his April 2008 statement that contact from the Mc camp (specifically Brian Kennedy and the Mcs themselves) had made it difficult for him to perhaps say what he wanted, he says, "There are certain times when I feel like a pawn in chess."

Re: the beds in 'Madeleine's" bedroom, if the Paynes were in 5A, I think Dianne could have been using the bed by the window with Lily in the single cot in the same room (Scarlet being in the second cot in the second bedroom, as described by Maria the cleaner). This could be the reason the cot locations is such a touchy subject for both the Mcs.
Good point.
It would certainly have made sense for the McCanns  to offer to exchange their apartment with the extra bed to accommodate Mrs Webster  and would certainly then answer the mystery of the lack of Madeleine's DNA in 5A. But then there is still the problem of the cadaver odour.
The Paynes apartment was the larger one I thought, as to accommodate DW albeit she slept on the "sofa" I think I've read at some point? 

Ah yes those "unreliable dogs", an excellent observation, so how would that fit in with this theory? 
Was there a lot of "manoeuvring" that week? 
Still think that the "unmade bed" that KM claimed to have slept in the previous evening was actually Madeleines? 
Always suspicious when an explanation is offered in detail when KM can't even answer the 48 Q's? 

Was the cot the maid saw in the parents room a place where Madeleine was as if "sleeping"? 

IMO

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Verdi on 09.09.16 11:57

@MayMuse wrote:
Really? Then why suggest it to others if you cannot assist?
I made my reasoning quite clear in my original post, I have nothing further to add.

For goodness sake MayMuse, this is not supposed to be a 'them and us' scenario - a challenge shouldn't be taken as a personal attack.  I admit to being a trifle brusque at times, I make no apology for that, if you object to my persona I'm easy enough to ignore.

On with the show..

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by skyrocket on 09.09.16 12:45

@Kaz

There was no need for the Mcs and Paynes to swap for the beds. 

Both 5A and 5H were T2 apartments i.e. 2 bedrooms. Each with 2 sets of twin beds. 5H had an extra bed - from Martin Grime's searches, the extra bed in 5H seems to be an extra single bed not a sofa bed. 

Now, the interesting point is that all children over the age of 2 years are automatically allocated a BED by MarkWarner. Therefore, the Mcs would have been given 5 beds and the Paynes 4, with an automatic cot for Scarlet.

On the guest list it can clearly be seen that the 'extra bed' is automatically allocated against the Mcs booking, not the Paynes, where 'cot x 1' is allocated (bottom of page 1), in the same manner as for Ellie and Grace. 

There is a note requesting 3 further cots for Sean, Amelie and Lily (remember they have been given beds). So 2 cots were put in both 5A and 5H - which doesn't help differentiate.

On this guest list NO APARTMENT NUMBERS are given. 

Dianne Webster says that she slept on the spare bed in the lounge area and all along I have been questioning why she would do this when there were 2 empty single beds in the room Lily was using, in a cot on her own. Would any grandmother do this i.e. sleep in a communal area rather than in with their granddaughter? The Payne's could be comfortably housed in 5A, without the use of a spare bed at all. Was the idea of Dianne using the spare bed only introduced to re-inforce the story that the Paynes were in 5H? 

So to be clear, the Mcs would be automatically booked into a T2 with an extra bed because all 5 of the party were over the age of 2 years. 5H was a T2 with an extra bed. The Paynes would automatically be booked into a T2 with no extra bed because 4 of the party were over 2 years (incl Dianne), and Scarlet was allocated an extra cot. 5A was a T2 with no extra bed.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 13:16

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote:
Really? Then why suggest it to others if you cannot assist?
I made my reasoning quite clear in my original post, I have nothing further to add.

For goodness sake MayMuse, this is not supposed to be a 'them and us' scenario - a challenge shouldn't be taken as a personal attack.  I admit to being a trifle brusque at times, I make no apology for that, if you object to my persona I'm easy enough to ignore.

On with the show..
Verdi you are telling people to help hideho and not discuss anything else as you deem pointless, ( read back) and not for the first time either;  not everyone on this forum is at the same level of understanding of this "case", so if my questions in trying to make sense of what happened to Madeleine is behind yours then I make no apology and suggest you ignore my posts! 
There is no need to abruptly disrupt anyone when they are just trying to seek answers. I have noticed you seem to do this a great deal by carefully wording your comments in a way that can mean one thing and another! Very confusing.  Patience is a virtue and I certainly would not dismiss anyone's viewpoints just because they didn't agree with mine. Everyone is trying their best on different levels and surely just as important. 
I'm not engaging any further.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 13:26

@skyrocket wrote:@Kaz

There was no need for the Mcs and Paynes to swap for the beds. 

Both 5A and 5H were T2 apartments i.e. 2 bedrooms. Each with 2 sets of twin beds. 5H had an extra bed - from Martin Grime's searches, the extra bed in 5H seems to be an extra single bed not a sofa bed. 

Now, the interesting point is that all children over the age of 2 years are automatically allocated a BED by MarkWarner. Therefore, the Mcs would have been given 5 beds and the Paynes 4, with an automatic cot for Scarlet.

On the guest list it can clearly be seen that the 'extra bed' is automatically allocated against the Mcs booking, not the Paynes, where 'cot x 1' is allocated (bottom of page 1), in the same manner as for Ellie and Grace. 

There is a note requesting 3 further cots for Sean, Amelie and Lily (remember they have been given beds). So 2 cots were put in both 5A and 5H - which doesn't help differentiate.

On this guest list NO APARTMENT NUMBERS are given. 

Dianne Webster says that she slept on the spare bed in the lounge area and all along I have been questioning why she would do this when there were 2 empty single beds in the room Lily was using, in a cot on her own. Would any grandmother do this i.e. sleep in a communal area rather than in with their granddaughter? The Payne's could be comfortably housed in 5A, without the use of a spare bed at all. Was the idea of Dianne using the spare bed only introduced to re-inforce the story that the Paynes were in 5H? 

So to be clear, the Mcs would be automatically booked into a T2 with an extra bed because all 5 of the party were over the age of 2 years. 5H was a T2 with an extra bed. The Paynes would automatically be booked into a T2 with no extra bed because 4 of the party were over 2 years (incl Dianne), and Scarlet was allocated an extra cot. 5A was a T2 with no extra bed.
Thanks for giving so much info @skyrocket, if they did "swap" what about he cadaver odour as Kaz suggested? 

Why do the guest lists and the crèche lists fall short at this holiday club? I wonder if past "admin" was ever looked at in comparison to that week? 

Nothing is straightforward, when you think you may have something sorted as a possibility then another aspect rears its head, so confusing. I read a long time ago of a suggestion that the children were in one apartment at the same time and this ive often wondered about as it appears that one adult was missing (sick?) from the dinner table each night. 
So if they were looking after the children, was it in 5a?

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by kaz on 09.09.16 13:29

@skyrocket wrote:@Kaz

There was no need for the Mcs and Paynes to swap for the beds. 

Both 5A and 5H were T2 apartments i.e. 2 bedrooms. Each with 2 sets of twin beds. 5H had an extra bed - from Martin Grime's searches, the extra bed in 5H seems to be an extra single bed not a sofa bed. 

Now, the interesting point is that all children over the age of 2 years are automatically allocated a BED by MarkWarner. Therefore, the Mcs would have been given 5 beds and the Paynes 4, with an automatic cot for Scarlet.

On the guest list it can clearly be seen that the 'extra bed' is automatically allocated against the Mcs booking, not the Paynes, where 'cot x 1' is allocated (bottom of page 1), in the same manner as for Ellie and Grace. 

There is a note requesting 3 further cots for Sean, Amelie and Lily (remember they have been given beds). So 2 cots were put in both 5A and 5H - which doesn't help differentiate.

On this guest list NO APARTMENT NUMBERS are given. 

Dianne Webster says that she slept on the spare bed in the lounge area and all along I have been questioning why she would do this when there were 2 empty single beds in the room Lily was using, in a cot on her own. Would any grandmother do this i.e. sleep in a communal area rather than in with their granddaughter? The Payne's could be comfortably housed in 5A, without the use of a spare bed at all. Was the idea of Dianne using the spare bed only introduced to re-inforce the story that the Paynes were in 5H? 

So to be clear, the Mcs would be automatically booked into a T2 with an extra bed because all 5 of the party were over the age of 2 years. 5H was a T2 with an extra bed. The Paynes would automatically be booked into a T2 with no extra bed because 4 of the party were over 2 years (incl Dianne), and Scarlet was allocated an extra cot. 5A was a T2 with no extra bed.
You've obviously gone into this very thoroughly and I wasn't aware of the automatic bed supply for those over two years. Because I had read that Mrs Webster was sleeping on a couch that converted into a bed I presumed there was no  provision for her and she'd just latched on for the ride. As you say, why on earth would she not sleep in a proper bedroom in a decent bed? By using the convertible couch you have the problem of making it up each day as you wouldn't want a bed on display the whole day in the communal living area ,  especially if you entertain your friends there.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 13:41

@skyrocket, I thought the twins were under 2 years of age? 
20 months or something? If that's the case would they not qualify for cots not beds? 
So no need for an extra bed in 5a for the McCann family? 
Stand to be corrected.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by sharonl on 09.09.16 13:54

Can we please dispense with the arguments here and keep this thread on topic.  

Now, just a suggestion but if it is true that all the children were being cared for I one apartment and someone was missing from dinner each night:

Was the same apartment used each night?
Did everyone have an early night on Saturday or just the McCanns?
Were the McCanns the first to babysit on that Saturday night?
Did both the McCanns stay in that night?
Did the arrangement change after ,Sunday?

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 14:31

Ive been unsuccessfully trying to find out if the sofas in 5a were sofa beds? Or one of them? Can anyone point me in the right direction or know if they were? Thanks

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Verdi on 09.09.16 15:01

@MayMuse wrote: I thought the twins were under 2 years of age? 
The twins were 11 months old when they took the holiday to Portugal.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by colinthecucumber on 09.09.16 15:04

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote: I thought the twins were under 2 years of age? 
The twins were 11 months old when they took the holiday to Portugal.
I think they were 2 years and 3 months.
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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Verdi on 09.09.16 15:05

@sharonl wrote:Can we please dispense with the arguments here and keep this thread on topic.  

Now, just a suggestion but if it is true that all the children were being cared for I one apartment and someone was missing from dinner each night:

Was the same apartment used each night?
Did everyone have an early night on Saturday or just the McCanns?
Were the McCanns the first to babysit on that Saturday night?
Did both the McCanns stay in that night?
Did the arrangement change after ,Sunday?
I've always thought that to be a distinct possibility - far more likely than all the children being left alone in their respective apartments, with or without unlocked doors.  There is also a possibility that the children were being cared for by one or more of the nannies off the books so to speak.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by kaz on 09.09.16 15:07

@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote: I thought the twins were under 2 years of age? 
The twins were 11 months old when they took the holiday to Portugal.

The twins were born at the beginning of 2005. They WERE two years old.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by MayMuse on 09.09.16 15:14

@kaz wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote: I thought the twins were under 2 years of age? 
The twins were 11 months old when they took the holiday to Portugal.

The twins were born at the beginning of 2005. They WERE two years old.
Thank you Kaz, so around 26/7 months.

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Verdi on 09.09.16 15:14

@colinthecucumber wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@MayMuse wrote: I thought the twins were under 2 years of age? 
The twins were 11 months old when they took the holiday to Portugal.
I think they were 2 years and 3 months.
Yes, you are quite correct - they were born early 2005, bad hair day. - still it's brought you out of the cabbage patch, your user name cracks me up big grin .

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by sharonl on 09.09.16 15:59

@Verdi wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Can we please dispense with the arguments here and keep this thread on topic.  

Now, just a suggestion but if it is true that all the children were being cared for I one apartment and someone was missing from dinner each night:

Was the same apartment used each night?
Did everyone have an early night on Saturday or just the McCanns?
Were the McCanns the first to babysit on that Saturday night?
Did both the McCanns stay in that night?
Did the arrangement change after ,Sunday?
I've always thought that to be a distinct possibility - far more likely than all the children being left alone in their respective apartments, with or without unlocked doors.  There is also a possibility that the children were being cared for by one or more of the nannies off the books so to speak.
Good point and even more likely on the. evening of the alleged abduction.  Didn't Cat Baker claim that she was asleep in her apartment whilst her colleagues were out clubbing that night?

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Verdi on 09.09.16 20:01

@sharonl wrote:
@Verdi wrote:
@sharonl wrote:Can we please dispense with the arguments here and keep this thread on topic.  

Now, just a suggestion but if it is true that all the children were being cared for I one apartment and someone was missing from dinner each night:

Was the same apartment used each night?
Did everyone have an early night on Saturday or just the McCanns?
Were the McCanns the first to babysit on that Saturday night?
Did both the McCanns stay in that night?
Did the arrangement change after ,Sunday?
I've always thought that to be a distinct possibility - far more likely than all the children being left alone in their respective apartments, with or without unlocked doors.  There is also a possibility that the children were being cared for by one or more of the nannies off the books so to speak.
Good point and even more likely on the. evening of the alleged abduction.  Didn't Cat Baker claim that she was asleep in her apartment whilst her colleagues were out clubbing that night?
Yes she did say that.

It would certainly go towards explaining the curious bond that developed between Catriona Baker and the McCanns and how Charlotte Pennington featured so prominently in the early days, despite not having responsibility for Madeleine's day care during the week.

I've never been able to understand why Ms Baker was so traumatised by Madeleine's disappearance when it allegedly occurred outside of her watch.  The idea doesn't necessarily discount the presence of one of the group on any given night, one or other could still be ill or sharing a babysitting arrangement.

There has to be an explanation as to why the group didn't book the in-house babysitting service or the open evening creche.  Kate McCann's feeble excuse about not leaving the children with a stranger doesn't fit bearing in mind the 'strangers' were looking after their children during the day.  What was the other excuse?  Not wanting to disrupt their bedtime routine - they were on holiday too, their whole routine was altered.  Unless of course the parents were in the habit of leaving their children alone at night whilst they were out to dinner.  I doubt it!

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Nina on 09.09.16 20:21

Regarding the Paynes maybe being in apartment 5Aandnot 5H.These photographs are the greyscale ones and not easy to see but there are some of DP on the balcony with the children and it does look higher up than the balcony of 5A would be, so I think they were in 5H

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by Verdi on 09.09.16 20:36

@Nina wrote:Regarding the Paynes maybe being in apartment 5Aandnot 5H.These photographs are the greyscale ones and not easy to see but there are some of DP on the balcony with the children and it does look higher up than the balcony of 5A would be, so I think they were in 5H

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HOLIDAY-PHOTOS-LIST.htm

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Re: The Possible Dry Run By The Alleged Abductor That Possibly Caused The Alleged Crying Incident.

Post by skyrocket on 10.09.16 8:26

For anyone who's interested here's the full length Eddie/Keela searches video, which include shots of the inside of the apartments. Thanks to HiDeHo:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynQqCfSW8LI



@MayMuse - I've just watched the 5H section again and the curtains in the children's bedroom are not in shot. 


NOTE: just to correct my above post (and revert back to what I'd originally posted and also what someone above pointed out), the beds in 5H are double in the parent's room; twin singles in the children's room, sofa bed in the lounge - for 5 (possibly 6 if the sofa bed is a double). The video above threw me because I had remembered seeing a full single bed in the parents room - checking this morning, the single bed looks like it has been moved from the second bedroom. 


@Nina - yes, I agree, the greyscale photos of DP with Lily and Ellie are definitely on the 5H balcony. The problem is, with this case, almost anything seems possible and we don't know whether the photos were taken after the 3 May or in fact if they were staged before that date. 


My thoughts about 5H/5A are not set in stone, it was the odd slips made by Dianne in her rogatory; the guest booking list showing the Mcs were the ones allocated an extra bed, not the Paynes; and the fact that it would explain a number of anomalies which suggested it could be a possibility. Another one that has crossed my mind is the missing toothbrush - if everything were being swapped over it could have got left behind in 5H. 


I've just read an interesting snippet from Fiona's rogatory:


'Erm, but, you know, as it was altered, they did manage to put us all close together as a group. Erm, so, you know, we thought well in the evenings we could at least get them to bed and with our baby monitors we can at least sort of have a drink together on, on a, on a balcony and still be all together, you know, looking after the children, so that was our plan before going really, that's what we'd do. Erm, other than booking it I'.


No mention here of doing their own baby listening service whilst out eating, only that the monitors were to be used to allow them to congregate in one of the adjoining apartments for a drink. 
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